What is the primary language of your liturgy?

[gurneyhalleck1]

Roger that.

nope, sure not

 

[ArmyMatt]

Roger that.

Tango Mike, Charlie Mike

 

[E.C.]

Last home parish in CA was ROCOR and they rotated liturgies; one week Slavonic, the next English, Slavonic, English, etc. My parents' OCA parish in Seattle is primarily English with both English and Slavonic for the readings, Lord's Prayer, and I think also the Creed. Maybe a "gospodipo meloi" in there once in a while. The new deacon, an American of Slavic descent, is trying to do more Slavonic, but the parish basically told him to go ROCOR if he does that! (Seattle has four parishes, two Greek that both worship in Greek, one ROCOR that's all Slavonic and this OCA that's the only English Liturgy in the city)

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

 

[tapi]

Personally, I believe the antiquated languages should be mostly done away with in liturgical practice. Having met quite a few native Russian-speaking young people, who come the from sort of families in which it is customary go to the divine services a few times over the course of the year, they all stated upon being asked that they do not really understand much at all of Church Slavonic. They only get a very vague general picture: "Jesus went somewhere, then he said something which made a lot of people upset and he left the premises". It is not good. The same applies to Old Greek.

It is especially astounding to see or read that in places like Africa they use, in some Russian parishes, predominantly Slavonic in the services, when absolutely none of the local population understand even the slightest bit of it! Or that a Greek parish that has been functioning in the USA for over 100 years still uses Old Greek for 90% of the liturgical texts sung and read.

The Church has always historically understood the importance of the services being translated to the vernacular. The current situation occurring in some parishes, especially those in the diaspora, if a language utterly foreign to 99% of the local population is being used as the main liturgical language, is inexcusable and has nothing to do with the faith but is all "ethnic club"-stuff.

 

[Dorothea]

The two Greek Orthodox Churches we visit, English is the primary language. My home parish is about 80% English to 20% Greek. It's even less at the church in Denver. Probably 90-95% English and 10/5% Greek. It's nice.

 

[E.C.]

Personally, I believe the antiquated languages should be mostly done away with in liturgical practice. Having met quite a few native Russian-speaking young people, who come the from sort of families in which it is customary go to the divine services a few times over the course of the year, they all stated upon being asked that they do not really understand much at all of Church Slavonic. They only get a very vague general picture: "Jesus went somewhere, then he said something which made a lot of people upset and he left the premises". It is not good. The same applies to Old Greek.

It is especially astounding to see or read that in places like Africa they use, in some Russian parishes, predominantly Slavonic in the services, when absolutely none of the local population understand even the slightest bit of it! Or that a Greek parish that has been functioning in the USA for over 100 years still uses Old Greek for 90% of the liturgical texts sung and read.

The Church has always historically understood the importance of the services being translated to the vernacular. The current situation occurring in some parishes, especially those in the diaspora, if a language utterly foreign to 99% of the local population is being used as the main liturgical language, is inexcusable and has nothing to do with the faith but is all "ethnic club"-stuff.

THIS!

There is absolutely no reason for parishes to be worshiping in those languages when nobody speaks them. I think for most Americans that'd be like worshiping in Beowulf's English, or Vulgar Latin, or Gaelic, or even Gothic. It just makes no sense.

We need a rule here that if your parish is the only Orthodox parish in one hour's driving distance than the Liturgy must be in English. If your kids and grandkids identify more as Americans than Russians, Greeks, Arabs, whatever; than accept English. I visited a Jerusalem Vicariate parish just north of San Jose where they worshiped in 2/3 English and 1/3 Arabic. Eight years ago, it was half and half. Why? The old Arabs are dying off and the younger generation doesn't speak nor understand Arabic. That parish made the decision twenty years ago that if ensuring their children remained Orthodox by switching to English, than they'd better do it. Americanization happens and it is better to accept it and remain Orthodox than deny it and become Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, or Atheist because one refuses to go to church since one does not understand what is said or what is going on.

 

[Lukaris]

In America there are also a few new Orthodox immigrants that are drawn to a parish with old world expression. I believe English should be the primary expression worship but antiphons, major hymns like the Trisagion, Cherubic etc. can be rotated in English, Arabic, Greek etc.

Depriving people of an ability to understand their faith in it’s expression is wrong & self destructive in any fashion. Personally, I am descended from Syrians & American colonists & value keeping some ethnic expression of faith not just for style but even stability. For ex. if someone actually reads their bulletin with quotes from the saints, old world expression of faith is beneficial.

 

[Phronema]

I attend a Greek Orthodox parish, and our Divine Liturgy is about 95% English which I have to agree is essential for non-Greek speaking parishioners. The Divine Liturgy is the best catechism out there from what I've been told, but it's not going to help much if a person doesn't understand what's being said, or is going on.

Lukaris brings up a good point as well, and I think having the original language in the antiphons, major hymns etc, is just fine especially if it rotates to the original language, and back to the local language.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Lukaris brings up a good point as well, and I think having the original language in the antiphons, major hymns etc, is just fine especially if it rotates to the original language, and back to the local language.

One of my friends is a pilot and had been up in Montreal. He went to a Greek church and he was glad when they did things in Greek as he did not know French. At least then he knew where they were in the service.

 

[Phronema]

One of my friends is a pilot and had been up in Montreal. He went to a Greek church and he was glad when they did things in Greek as he did not know French. At least then he knew where they were in the service.

A fair point, but in the US, and really in most countries a situation of that type would be the exception, and not the rule generally. In addition one could argue that the French speaking people in the area really aren't benefitting much by the parish using Greek versus French as they likely don't understand what's being said, and I'd guess they make up the bulk of the parish.

I'll just add that if a Greek, or Russian monastery here in the US, or wherever wants to stick to the Greek or Old Church Slavonic respectively I'm all for that, and think that's perfectly fine. There's a difference in the "mission" of a local parish, and monastery in my opinion.

 

[LaSorcia]

English and Arabic.

 

[Anhelyna]

We are mainly English but do have some things in Greek [ our Chanter is Greek ]

The Lord's Prayer is always multi languages - those of the people present - usually Greek, Romanian, Arabic, Slavonic English , occasionally Ukrainian , Dutch

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Church Slavonic mostly. And that unfortunate.

 

[Not David]

Church Slavonic mostly. And that unfortunate.

Are you Spanish?

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Christos Anesti!

IMHO the biggest issue with the US Greeks is that they won't settle on some standard version. There are four, yes, FOUR, translations of Holy Week alone and none of them come close to each other. Some are missing prayers that the others have, all have awkward phrasing, some have rubrics, others don't.

We use Papadeas, the "black" book, and as a chanter it is a nightmare to read. Some passages read like Yoda, ("the most high you are." ... uh, just what is in the censor?). Some sections have missing passages such as one Psalm is missing an a portion of the verse in English (the Greek is there). It reads something like

Whoever dwells
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.

Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.

My personal favorite is that the Great Hours requires a miracle. Seriously, rubrics instruct the chanter to intone the hymn "Today is suspended" in front of the cross AND to sing the hymn "Today is suspended" in the chanters stand. Okay! Bilocation it is!

And heaven forbid that anyone actually proof-read these things. For the fifth Friday of the Akathist, the Lord's Prayer ends with "deliver us FOR evil".

Do any of the other jurisdictions have this kind of issue?

 

[All4Christ]

The biggest differences I see in the OCA between parishes (textually) is using thee / thou instead of you for the Theotokos. I see an occasional typo in the OCA texts (one recently said personnel instead of personal lol), but generally speaking it is pretty polished.

 

[E.C.]

Christos Anesti!

IMHO the biggest issue with the US Greeks is that they won't settle on some standard version. There are four, yes, FOUR, translations of Holy Week alone and none of them come close to each other. Some are missing prayers that the others have, all have awkward phrasing, some have rubrics, others don't.

We use Papadeas, the "black" book, and as a chanter it is a nightmare to read. Some passages read like Yoda, ("the most high you are." ... uh, just what is in the censor?). Some sections have missing passages such as one Psalm is missing an a portion of the verse in English (the Greek is there). It reads something like

Whoever dwells
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.

Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.

My personal favorite is that the Great Hours requires a miracle. Seriously, rubrics instruct the chanter to intone the hymn "Today is suspended" in front of the cross AND to sing the hymn "Today is suspended" in the chanters stand. Okay! Bilocation it is!

And heaven forbid that anyone actually proof-read these things. For the fifth Friday of the Akathist, the Lord's Prayer ends with "deliver us FOR evil".

Do any of the other jurisdictions have this kind of issue?

The local church here in San Angelo is Greek. I seem to have been absorbed into the chanter's area and experienced the clunky translations of the black book first hand. It was painful. As a linguist, it made my ears bleed a little and I had to constantly remind myself of St Ambrose of Milan's quote, "When in Rome do as the Romans do" or an old Russian expression "don't bring your typikon to my monastery".

I think what kills me more than anything is just the differences between the Slavic and Greek traditions in terms of what is sung, intoned, or just plain read. Like the Praises. In the Greek tradition they seem to be chanted where as in the OCA/ROCOR parishes I've been to they are sung with the lines like "Praise him with cymbol and dance..." are intoned by a reader or reader-esque person in the choir. Or how the Greeks don't always have a choir and just settle for a handful of chanters. Or how some things read/intoned in the Slavic tradition are sung in the Greek, but what's sung in the Greek is intoned in the Slavic. Now that we're in Pascha, the "Truly He is Risen" is so clunky compared to the "Indeed He is Risen". The list goes on.

The biggest differences I see in the OCA between parishes (textually) is using thee / thou instead of you for the Theotokos. I see an occasional typo in the OCA texts (one recently said personnel instead of personal lol), but generally speaking it is pretty polished.

I love the OCA for at least being consistent outside of the thee/thou vs you debate. I think St Tikhon's actually published two different versions of the Hieratikon; one with thee/thou the other with yous. I'm one for the thee/thou because yeah it's older English, but it seems best preserved as the "you for God". Every language has some formal version of itself and the Elizabethan English seems to have morphed into ours. I know the Greeks keep the yous because "oh it's harder for newly arrived Greeks to learn two yous" (I mean, just say 'you is for people, thee/thou is for God' simple)

I think the only weirdly sounding phrase I've heard in an OCA parish is the line "oh man-loving Master" and that's about it.

 

[FineAndFaith]

Church Slavonic mostly. And that unfortunate.

Why unfortunate?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Why unfortunate?

it should be in the language of the locals.