What is the object of the Law? Obedience or Love ???

[Fervent]

Alright, conduit is good, but it’s both/and as I see it, not either/or, with God wanting us to love as He does. As I added to my last post, “unless love comes from the interior of our person, it’s fake anyway.”

Even in that, I think its a natural growth. As we begin to treat people according to the love of God we begin to see them as God sees them and love them as God loves them. I can see there being a both/and to it, though I do think its important to emphasize the self-emptying aspect as that is a driver of Christian love whereas emphasizing a love from the interior person is likely to give way to selfish prideful expressions of "sacrifice" that make a mockery of the self-giving love of God. We love from a place of dependence, not from on high.

 

[fhansen]

Even in that, I think its a natural growth. As we begin to treat people according to the love of God we begin to see them as God sees them and love them as God loves them. I can see there being a both/and to it, though I do think its important to emphasize the self-emptying aspect as that is a driver of Christian love whereas emphasizing a love from the interior person is likely to give way to selfish prideful expressions of "sacrifice" that make a mockery of the self-giving love of God. We love from a place of dependence, not from on high.

If we truly love, there’s no place for pride. When we’re proud, we’re not loving. But, yes, it’s all a matter of growth. It takes time to be perfected in love, and to annihilate our pride, more than a lifetime.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Your thread was not about your salvation, and grace.
It is about you trying to use your testimony to force this idea that the object
of the Law is love, not obedience. In spite of all the scriptures that teach us
that the law was given to convict the world as sinners. That it is not for
righteousness, but to convict of unrighteousness. Yes, salvation is by grace
alone. No one is saved by their own obedience, and as your experiences attest,
it is His love, and the faithfulness of others that brought us back.

The object of the Law...

Was the Father wanting folks to Love...

Or was the Father wanting folks to obey rules?

This is the question.

 

[fhansen]

The object of the Law...

Was the Father wanting folks to Love...

Or was the Father wanting folks to obey rules?

This is the question.

Yes. And even the greatest rules, the greatest commandments, cannot be and are not obeyed until we love. But the command is good, even though it can only be fulfilled via grace, by God’s work in us.

 

[Minister Monardo]

The object of the Law...

Was the Father wanting folks to Love...

Or was the Father wanting folks to obey rules?

This is the question.

Not "rules". His Voice.
Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and
keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above
all people; for all the earth is Mine.

"keep My covenant"=engage in my love affair? (That one's for you.)
Even as our father Abraham.
Genesis 26:5 Because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge,
My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.

The cult of animal sacrifice was never His desire.
Jeremiah 6:
22 For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day
that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings
or sacrifices.
23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, Obey My voice, and
I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways
that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.
24 Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and
not forward.

To delight in doing His Will
Psalms 40:
6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
7 Then I said, Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart. Prophesy David!

To Love Him is to Obey Him
John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commandments.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Or

Not one or the other. Both.
This was my point from my first response.
#59
John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.

"I am perplexed by the notion of separating obedience from love."
Hebrews 5:
8 Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things
which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation
to all who obey Him. (love Him?)

We learn to love by being obedient.
1 John 4:
20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar;
for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he
love God whom he has not seen?
21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God
must love his brother also.

"The Object of the Law", was that not the question?
Deuteronomy 30:20 that you may love the Lord your God, (check)
that you may obey His voice, (check)
and that you may cling to Him,
for He is your life
and the length of your days;
and that you may dwell in the land
which the Lord swore to your fathers,
to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.

Someone can talk about loving God all they want, but
they must be born again, and learn to love on another fervently.
1 Peter 1:
22 Since you have purified your souls
in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love
of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,
23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible,
through the word of God which lives and abides forever.

We are sanctified by the Spirit through obedience, to love as He loved
1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience
and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

I must be getting closer, I am up at 2:30 a.m. re-stating everything
I already posted to show by the word of God, that obedience always
comes first in the spirit and truth of the scriptures. We are given His
Holy Spirit by grace that we may be able to love as He loves.
To walk in the Spirit is to obey His Voice.
I am so weary of opinions! That must be what long suffering means.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Yes. And even the greatest rules, the greatest commandments, cannot be and are not obeyed until we love. But the command is good, even though it can only be fulfilled via grace, by God’s work in us.

Your words sound impressive, but they aren't supported by scriptures,
which trumps opinions.
To love as you and I, and the Lord would have us, we must be born again
by the Spirit of Christ, which is not a function of law, but of faith.
You must be born again to obey the voice of the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 1:
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit
in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,
23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through
the word of God which lives and abides forever.

We are sanctified by this means and for this purpose
1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience
and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

So again I say, obedience precedes sincere love, and I remain
unconvinced that this is otherwise. Set your opinions aside, and
receive the engrafted words of truth. The flesh will ALWAYS resist
offering the sacrificial love of Christ, and must be overcome.
James 1:
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness,
and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only,
deceiving your own selves.

Be a "doer of the word". That means OBEY.

 

[fhansen]

Your words sound impressive, but they aren't supported by scriptures,
which trumps opinions.

I'll stand by the words, impressive sounding or not, because it's not either/or, but both/and. We're enjoined to love, were obligtated to love, or else our universe -beginning with oursleves-is the mess that it is. And yet we cannot love, we cannot be just, IOW, apart from God. Union with God is what makes the difference between the old and new covenants. It's not, as some say that we're hit with a bolt of divine lightning out of the blue and suddenly regenerated/born again/saved and now we live and love like He does forever and ever amen. And it's also not, as some say, that we can never have any righteounessness that would impress or saitsfy God, or contribute to our eternal destinies.

We are still obligated to be righteousness, even if that righteousness must come from Him, just as our eyesight and all gifts come from Him. Love is optional, however, as He is optional for man to unite with. So it's also not that we can generate righteousness on our own, apart form Him. He must draw us into it, to Himself; He must appeal to us with His own love, and then give us the chocie to love in return even if the source of that love is still Him. It's that choice, that response, that He's after, and continous growth in and strengthening of it. The church has struggled at working out these teachings centuries ago, teachings which find their root in the early chruch, the ECFs, and Scripture.

 

[fhansen]

I'll stand by the words, impressive sounding or not, because it's not either/or, but both/and. We're enjoined to love, were obligtated to love, or else our universe -beginning with oursleves-is the mess that it is. And yet we cannot love, we cannot be just, IOW, apart from God. Union with God is what makes the difference between the old and new covenants. It's not, as some say that we're hit with a bolt of divine lightning out of the blue and suddenly regenerated/born again/saved and now we live and love like He does forever and ever amen. And it's also not, as some say, that we can never have any righteounessness that would impress or saitsfy God, or contribute to our eternal destinies.

We are still obligated to be righteousness, even if that righteousness must come from Him, just as our eyesight and all gifts come from Him. Love is optional, however, as He is optional for man to unite with. So it's also not that we can generate righteousness on our own, apart form Him. He must draw us into it, to Himself; He must appeal to us with His own love, and then give us the chocie to love in return even if the source of that love is still Him. It's that choice, that response, that He's after, and continous growth in and strengthening of it. The church has struggled at working out these teachings centuries ago, teachings which find their root in the early chruch, the ECFs, and Scripture.

No, Pelagianism is optimistic.

 

[fhansen]

And, Mr Monardo, Pelagianism isn't funny either.

 

[bling]

Hi there,

We are told there is no Law against Love.

We are told that if we knew the difference between compassion and sacrifice, we would not have condemned the innocent.

I invite discussion on this important truth.

The Law was never meant to be an instrument of control, but a message from God's heart for our good.

Everything God does is for the good of those who are just willing to accept God’s gifts as pure undeserved charity.

The Old Law is marvelous, wonderful, beautiful, and everything we should expect from a perfect God to be His people, so the problem is not with the “Law”. The problem is with man. Man cannot with only his own ability follow the “Law”.

The Law is to help willing humans:

From the Law you can see how bad sin is. (Picking up sticks on the Sabbath requires stoning.)

The Law shows us how quick and easy it is for humans to sin and thus displease God.

The Law shows us how difficult it is for humans to punish other humans who have displeased God. We can’t stone a person who is no more guilty than ourselves.

The Law shows God’s greatness because it is way above humans.

If the Law had not been written man might have felt, he was “OK” doing the “best he can”.

The Law shows that we must give up on self and rely on God’s Love, but the Law itself does not present God’s Love to generate a strong trust/Faith.

The Law sets us up for the coming Messiah.

It is extremely Loving on God’s part to allow us to be taught by the Law.

 

[Ligurian]

What is the object of the Law? Obedience or Love ???

Depends on what you call love.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The Lord thy God shall raise up to thee a prophet of thy brethren, like me; him shall ye hear: 16 according to all things which thou didst desire of the Lord thy God in Choreb in the day of the assembly, saying, We will not again hear the voice of the Lord thy God and we will not any more see this great fire, and so we shall not die. 17 And the Lord said to me, They have spoken rightly all that they have said to thee. 18 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him. 19 And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX

John 12:44-50 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. 45 And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear My words and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself: but the Father which sent Me He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.KJV

James 1:22-25 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.KJV

Matthew 5:19-20---Matthew 7:24-29 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon the rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon the rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.KJV

John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings: and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.KJV

 

[concretecamper]

It's Obedience and Love. Can't be like Christ without being both.


John 15:12 This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.

Phil 2:7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.
2:8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.
2:9 For which cause, God also hath exalted him and hath given him a name which is above all names:

 

[pescador]

The purpose of the OT law is to lead people to Christ.

"For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility." Ephesians 2:14-16