What is the object of the Law? Obedience or Love ???

[Carl Emerson]

Jesus and the Jews.

Not all Jews...

The voice of the Legalists...

...and the voice of Love.

 

[ChristServant]

Hi there,

We are told there is no Law against Love.

We are told that if we knew the difference between compassion and sacrifice, we would not have condemned the innocent.

I invite discussion on this important truth.

The Law was never meant to be an instrument of control, but a message from God's heart for our good.

Out of love comes obedience.

Peace be to all those in the Body of Christ.

 

[Fervent]

Out of love comes obedience.

Peace be to all those in the Body of Christ.

This is true, but there's also a bit of a paradox since strict adherence to the letter is actually disobedience in some occasions. For instance, David is said to have only broken the law on two occasions the first with Bathsheba and then with the census. Yet there are places where there are clear violations of the letter of the law, such as the one referenced by Jesus in the eating of the shewbread. Ultimately obedience to God is not about obedience to a written code because we are to obey the Spirit by which the law was inspired. The only way to obey the law is to recognize the character of God and understand what stands behind it rather than simply applying the written commands without thought.

 

[ChristServant]

This is true, but there's also a bit of a paradox since strict adherence to the letter is actually disobedience in some occasions. For instance, David is said to have only broken the law on two occasions the first with Bathsheba and then with the census. Yet there are places where there are clear violations of the letter of the law, such as the one referenced by Jesus in the eating of the shewbread. Ultimately obedience to God is not about obedience to a written code because we are to obey the Spirit by which the law was inspired. The only way to obey the law is to recognize the character of God and understand what stands behind it rather than simply applying the written commands without thought.

The law is a part of GOD's character. You say "we are to obey the Spirit by which the law was inspired". Good luck with that one, as all the different doctrines and different churches all follow the Spirit according to them but not according to how Christ described it.

I think people confuse the corruption of the law by Israel that became more and more corrupt as time passed and it's original intent which was what Christ was teaching. The two greatest commandments Christ spoke of was not new, just new to those whose understanding of the law was wrong and it's real intention. Christ never denied the commandments or the good that was in them just the way they were implemented. If you notice below in bold Christ own words "hang all" is used. In other words these are secondary to the first two. That's why scripture states;

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Are we to be led by the Spirit, 'yes' but how will you know, you align with GOD's word in Scripture. If you don't you can be taken into any doctrine which is what we are seeing throughout the Churches.

Peace be to all those in the Body of Christ.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The law is a part of GOD's character.

Can you confirm this from scripture please.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Are we to be led by the Spirit, 'yes' but how will you know, you align with GOD's word in Scripture. If you don't you can be taken into any doctrine which is what we are seeing throughout the Churches

I think that this comes back to our personal relationship with God and our dedication to the personal study of scripture.

I took more than 5 years out to read nothing but scripture - no other Christian material.

This gives a baseline to measure the various winds of doctrine.

 

[ChristServant]

Can you confirm this from scripture please.

I think that this comes back to our personal relationship with God and our dedication to the personal study of scripture.

I took more than 5 years out to read nothing but scripture - no other Christian material.

This gives a baseline to measure the various winds of doctrine.

and

I agree with you. I think Scripture is the best way to seek the truth and the best way of finding out about GOD, Christ, the Holy Spirit and our real purpose in life.

I became a hermit for a long time reading scripture, without any outside influence, including from the Church, it was quite intense. I was then able to sieve out what didn't align with GOD's word in Scripture, I then eventually started reading other Christian material. Still have lots to learn but the main foundation, the important parts of Scripture are there.

Peace be to all those in the Body of Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

These verses reveal the object God's law:

In Genesis 18:19, God experientially knew Abraham that he might teach his children and those of his household to guard God's way Lord by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to Abraham all that He has promised, namely in Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply his offspring as the stars in the heaven, to his offspring he will give all of these lands, and through his offspring all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, and these verses reveal the object of the law insofar as God bringing about what He has promises is the object of Abraham obeying God's law and teaching his children and those of his household to walk in God's way in obedience to it.

In Genesis 12:5, Abram took Sarai, Lot, and the souls that they had made in Haran, which is referring to the converts that they had made, and in John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were Abraham's children, they would be doing the works Abraham did, so it is only because Abraham multiplied his offspring by teaching his children and those of his household to do the works that he did by walking in God's way in obedience to His law that God could promise to multiply his offspring as the stars in the heaven. In Leviticus 18:24-28, the land vomits out those who sin in transgression of God's law, so it is only to because the seed of Abraham were taught to obey God's law that God could promise to give them the land. Likewise, in Psalms 119:1-3, God's law is how to offspring of Abraham knew how to be blessed by walking in God's way, so it is bring His offspring are teaching the nations how to be blessed by turning them away from their wickedness towards obedience to God's law that God could promise that through his offspring all of the nations of the earth will be blessed. In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact expression of God's nature, so he is the living embodiment of the nature of God expressed through living in sinless obedience to God's law, so he is the ultimate fulfillment of these promises, who was sent to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26).

God's way is the way in which He expresses aspects of His nature, such as righteousness and justice (Genesis 18:19) or other aspects of His nature (2 Samuel 22:21-37, etc.), God revealed His way through His law (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, etc), and it is through expresses aspects of His nature that we experientially know and are known by God, or in other words, that we are growing in a relationship with Him. When we express an aspect of God's nature through our obedience to His law, we are experientially knowing, believing in, testifying about, and expressing our love for that aspect of the nature of who He is, so everything that God has commanded was specifically commanded for the purpose of teaching us how to love different aspects of who He is, which is why there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God obedience to His commands (Exodus 20:6, 1 John 5:3, etc.), and why our good works bring glory to God (Matthew 5:16), why there are many verses that connect our faith in God with our obedience to Him (Revelation 14:12, Romans 3:31, James 2:17-18, Hebrews 11, etc.), and why there are many verses that connect knowing God with walking in His way in obedience to His law (Jeremiah 9:3,6,13,24, 1 John 2:4, 3:4-6, Matthew 7:23). In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might experientially know Him, and Israel too, in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, so multiplying eternal life/knowledge of God is the object of the promises that God made to Abraham.

Hi there,

We are told there is no Law against Love.

We are told that if we knew the difference between compassion and sacrifice, we would not have condemned the innocent.

I invite discussion on this important truth.

The Law was never meant to be an instrument of control, but a message from God's heart for our good.

There is no law against love because all of God's laws were given to teach us how to love, so the difference between compassion and sacrifice is a matter of priority, not about love or obedience. There are times when some of God's laws appear to conflict, such as when God commanded to rest on the Sabbath, but also commanded priests to make offerings on the Sabbath (Numbers 28:9-10), however, it was not the case that priests were forced to sin by disobeying one of the two commands no matter what they chose to do, but that one of the commands was never intended to be understood as preventing the other from being obeyed, which is why Jesus said that priests who performed their duties on the Sabbath were held innocent, why David and his men were held innocent, and why Jesus defended his disciples as being innocent (Matthew 12:5-7). Indeed, God's law was given as a gift for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13).

 

[Carl Emerson]

In Genesis 18:19, God experientially knew Abraham that he might teach his children and those of his household to guard God's way Lord by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to Abraham all that He has promised, namely in Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply his offspring as the stars in the heaven, to his offspring he will give all of these lands, and through his offspring all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, and these verses reveal the object of the law insofar as God bringing about what He has promises is the object of Abraham obeying God's law and teaching his children and those of his household to walk in God's way in obedience to it.

This all refers to experiential knowledge - correct ??

As Abraham is the father of all who have faith - do you agree that again, by the Holy Spirit, we walk in His commands experientially written on our hearts.

This is relational accountability as we walk in His Love.

This is the Law of the Spirit of Life.

And so being children of the promise through Father Abraham our accountability is not to Torah but to God Himself within.

 

[Soyeong]

This all refers to experiential knowledge - correct ??

As Abraham is the father of all who have faith - do you agree that again, by the Holy Spirit, we walk in His commands experientially written on our hearts.

This is relational accountability as we walk in His Love.

This is the Law of the Spirit of Life.

And so being children of the promise through Father Abraham our accountability is not to Torah but to God Himself within.

Yes, the way have experiential knowledge of God is through experiencing His nature, and the Torah is His instructions for how to do that, which is why the Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of Torah, such as being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). Again the Torah is God's way and the verses that describe God's way are all describing aspects of His nature and again Jesus expressed the nature of God those living in sinless obedience to the Torah. In Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Torah while all of the fruits of the Spirit are all aspects of God's nature, which is why Paul described the Torah as being the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Torah as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so relational accountability as we walk in love is the same as walking in obedience to the Torah.

In Deuteronomy 10:12-16, God instructed them to circumcise their hearts and obey the Torah. In Deuteronomy 30:1-8, it prophesies a time when Israel would return from exile, God would circumcize their hearts, and they would return to obedience to the Torah. In Ezekiel 36:26-28 and Jeremiah 31:33, they are on regard to the New Covenant and Israel's return from exile and say that God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Torah, and that God would put His Torah in our minds and write it on our hearts, so these verses are describing the Spirit circumcising our hearts. In Romans Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah and the circumcising the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Torah. So the New Covenant is all about the return to obedience to the Torah and accountability to God from within is the same as accountability to the Torah.

 

[pasifika]

Out of love comes obedience.

Peace be to all those in the Body of Christ.

There is love that comes from God (Agape), also love comes from man (human love i.e. phileo)..then, "obedience" depends on which love that in us..

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes, the way have experiential knowledge of God is through experiencing His nature, and the Torah is His instructions for how to do that

That I don't agree with - I believe the reverse.

The Law was never able to indicate the 'how' for each individual.

The Holy Spirit specifically indicates how each individual should act in each unique circumstance.

 

[Soyeong]

That I don't agree with - I believe the reverse.

The Law was never able to indicate the 'how' for each individual.

The Holy Spirit specifically indicates how each individual should act in each unique circumstance.

Do you agree that the Israelites were taught how to experientially know God? If so, how else were they taught how to that if not through the Torah?

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he and Israel might experientially know Him, and God reveal His way through His law. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6 they did not experientially know God and refused to know him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Torah, while in 9:24, those who experientially know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in expressing those and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to the Torah is the way to experientially know God, and Jesus, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, and in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, so obedience to God's commandments is the way to experientially know God and Jesus. In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey His commands are liars, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is the transgression of the Torah and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen nor known him. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never experientially knew them, so experientially knowing Jesus is the goal of the Torah. So for example, when we do good works in obedience to the Torah, we are growing in a relationship with Christ through gaining experiential knowledge of His goodness.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Do you agree that the Israelites were taught how to experientially know God? If so, how else were they taught how to that if not through the Torah?

Abraham has a faith relationship with God long before the Law was given.

He was clearly spoken to direct as to how to act (think the offering of Issac)

This was the Law of the Spirit at work, not the Torah which came much later.

 

[Joy]

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[Neogaia777]

The OT Law was an attempt to put a bandaid on a bullet-hole/wound, and is why it ultimately failed, it made compromises with sin, for the standard is even higher now, and God calls all men/people now to repent of all of it now, and be truly obedient from the heart by being made perfect in Love now, which is the Higher Law, etc.

But unless God does it in you, it does not save you, etc.

God Bless!

 

[ViaCrucis]

The point of the Law is love.
However, we don't love, because we are sinners, and so the Law condemns us as sinners.
For this reason no one is justified by the Law.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

So the New Covenant is all about the return to obedience to the Torah and accountability to God from within is the same as accountability to the Torah.

I totally disagree with this - but it may because we have different definitions of 'Torah'.

Please define what you mean by 'Torah'

 

[Jonaitis]

Hi there,

We are told there is no Law against Love.

We are told that if we knew the difference between compassion and sacrifice, we would not have condemned the innocent.

I invite discussion on this important truth.

The Law was never meant to be an instrument of control, but a message from God's heart for our good.

The Law was intended to convict men of sin, draw them to the Savior and guide them in godly living. It was not meant to be obeyed with compulsion, but with reverence and love. We enjoy God's love in that in which He commands us to obey.

"Trust and obey, for there's no other way
to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey."

 

[Randy777]

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.