What is the object of the Law? Obedience or Love ???

[fhansen]

Hi there,

We are told there is no Law against Love.

We are told that if we knew the difference between compassion and sacrifice, we would not have condemned the innocent.

I invite discussion on this important truth.

The Law was never meant to be an instrument of control, but a message from God's heart for our good.

Obedience is still required under the New Covenant. Sin still stands in direct opposition to God and to His love. And we were never created to sin. To put it another way, man is obligated to love, and then authentic obedience begins to flow naturally, of its own accord. So, unlike the law, love does justify us but the "problem" is that love, even though right, cannot be realized by attempting to fulfill the obligation, by attempting to obey a command to love IOW, which is exactly what the greatest commandments are, of course. Rather, love comes only by choice; it's a gift of God, a work patiently wrought in us by Him with our cooperation. Both a gift and a choice, a daily choice. It comes only by virtue of fellowship with Him, a union entered into via faith. I appreciate a quote from Basil of Caesarea here, a 4th century bishop:

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

Had Adam possessed that love in Eden he would never have disobeyed. But he wasn't ready for it yet. When the time was finally ripe, humankind in general was just becoming ready to accept that light, and that's when Jesus came, to show it. Man's purpose, his telos, his achieved to the extent that he loves God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself.

 

[Minister Monardo]

This is the way we are invited to walk now.

We are invited to walk in the obedience of faith.
Romans 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship
for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name.

Will not the afterlife in His Love and His Perfection and Unity harmonise with His Character in all things?

In the afterlife we will be without corruption, spot or blemish. I understand what
you are trying to say, so I will suggest a scripture that might have given you some
support....
1 Timothy 1:
5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love
from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith.
Unfortunately, no one has a pure heart and a clean conscience until they
have walked in the obedience of a sincere faith.
8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,
clearly, many did not, as the intervening verses indicated..
6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk,
7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they
say nor the things which they affirm.

To love as you and I, and the Lord would have us, we must be born again
by the Spirit of Christ, which is not a function of law, but of faith.
1 Peter 1:
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,
23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.
So again I say, obedience precedes sincere love, and I remain
unconvinced that this is otherwise.
Ephesians 5:
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; (obedient children? yes.)
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us
an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savor.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things
the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

So who is it that walks in love? Obedient children.
Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and also
the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.

Malachi 3:
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when
I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spares his own
son that serves him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the
wicked, between him that serves God and him that serves him not.

What did the Law require for sons who are disobedient?
The Rebellious Son, and the tough Love of the Law
Deuteronomy 21:
18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey
the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who,
when they have chastened him, will not heed them,
19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring
him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city.
20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is
stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton
and a drunkard.
21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death;
so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel
shall hear and fear.

 

[Carl Emerson]

We are invited to walk in the obedience of faith.
Romans 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship
for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name.

In the afterlife we will be without corruption, spot or blemish. I understand what
you are trying to say, so I will suggest a scripture that might have given you some
support....
1 Timothy 1:
5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love
from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith.
Unfortunately, no one has a pure heart and a clean conscience until they
have walked in the obedience of a sincere faith.
8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,
clearly, many did not, as the intervening verses indicated..
6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk,
7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they
say nor the things which they affirm.

To love as you and I, and the Lord would have us, we must be born again
by the Spirit of Christ, which is not a function of law, but of faith.
1 Peter 1:
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,
23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.
So again I say, obedience precedes sincere love, and I remain
unconvinced that this is otherwise.
Ephesians 5:
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; (obedient children? yes.)
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us
an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savor.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things
the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

So who is it that walks in love? Obedient children.
Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and also
the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.

Malachi 3:
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when
I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spares his own
son that serves him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the
wicked, between him that serves God and him that serves him not.

What did the Law require for sons who are disobedient?
The Rebellious Son, and the tough Love of the Law
Deuteronomy 21:
18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey
the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who,
when they have chastened him, will not heed them,
19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring
him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city.
20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is
stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton
and a drunkard.
21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death;
so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel
shall hear and fear.

So the mature believer is not motivated by Love but rather obedience?

 

[Minister Monardo]

So the mature believer is not motivated by Love but rather obedience?

No, we become a mature believer by obedience.
I am sure we can agree that love becomes more natural with maturity,
but as I have said twice already, and the list of scriptures I cited confirm,
obedience precedes the fervent love that the apostles describe.

1 Peter 1:
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit
in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,

Did they not ask for permission to call fire down on someone?
And what was the answer?
"You don't know what spirit you are of"!!!

 

[fhansen]

No, we become a mature believer by obedience.
I am sure we can agree that love becomes more natural with maturity,
but as I have said twice already, and the list of scriptures I cited confirm,
obedience precedes the fervent love that the apostles describe.


Did they not ask for permission to call fire down on someone?
And what was the answer?
"You don't know what spirit you are of"!!!

The necessity of obedience definitely needs to be on our radar-as our intention. It's good to hear and to know the law, for example. But the actual accomplishing of that obedience, OTOH, doesn't come by our attempts to obey, but by our love for God and neighbor. That should be our goal. The law may tell us what that love would "look like", but love, itself, is what does the authentic fulfilling.

And so the first goal is to enter union with God, which happens via faith, the very first right and just step for man in response to His calling, to His grace. Then He does a work in us, beginning at justification and proceeding over time, of putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, of causing us to love as He does IOW, a work in which we participate.

 

[Minister Monardo]

The necessity of obedience definitely needs to be on our radar-as our intention. It's good to hear and to know the law, for example. But the actual accomplishing of that obedience, OTOH, doesn't come by our attempts to obey, but by our love for God and neighbor. That should be our goal. The law may tell us what that love would "look like", but love, itself, is what does the authentic fulfilling.

And so the first goal is to enter union with God, which happens via faith, the very first right and just step for man in response to His calling, to His grace. Then He does a work in us, beginning at justification and proceeding over time, of putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, of causing us to love as He does IOW, a work in which we participate.

This is how I have come to understand what I think you are trying to say:
Ephesians 4:
1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy
of the calling with which you were called,
2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering,
bearing with one another in love,
3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

The testimony of my experience is that it has certainly been an endeavor,
as lowliness and gentleness with longsuffering is not natural to man. I think
this is the work you speak of, and of which we participate in Christ, by the
power of the Holy Spirit. I can certainly also confirm that we have to "bear
with one another" in the love of the Spirit.
1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience
and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

 

[fhansen]

This is how I have come to understand what I think you are trying to say:
Ephesians 4:
1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy
of the calling with which you were called,
2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering,
bearing with one another in love,
3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

The testimony of my experience is that it has certainly been an endeavor,
as lowliness and gentleness with longsuffering is not natural to man. I think
this is the work you speak of, and of which we participate in Christ, by the
power of the Holy Spirit. I can certainly also confirm that we have to "bear
with one another" in the love of the Spirit.
1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience
and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Yes, union with God bound by uncompromised love of Him, and also of neighbor, is the goal and purpose of man. That's always been God's goal for us, and is to become our goal as well. And, within that union and that love is man's final resting place; he finds total and absolute wholeness, satisfaction, and happiness there-only there. And it comes with struggle-but a good and worthy struggle.

That's where we must be aware of our obligation, to bear each others burdens, to put to death the deeds of the flesh, to be holy, to do good, to finally and fully choose good over evil, to finally and fully embrace love, to put it another way, possible only in partnership with God. Because,

"Apart from me you can do nothing." Jiohn 15:5
"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Phil 4:13

 

[Minister Monardo]

Yes, union with God bound by uncompromised love of Him, and also of neighbor, is the goal and purpsoe of man. That's always been God's goal for us, and is to become our goal as well. And, within that union and that love is man's final resting place; he finds total and absolute wholeness, satisfaction, and happiness there-only there. And it comes with struggle-but a good and worthy struggle.

That's where we must be aware of our obligation, to bear each others burdens, to put to death the deeds of the flesh, to be holy, to do good, to finally and fully choose good over evil, to finally and fully embrace love, to put it another way, possible only in partnership with God.

Sounds great.
I have found that union in the place of service to others.
Luke 22:
26 But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you,
let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves.
27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or who serves?
Is it not he who sits at the table?
Yet I am among you as the One who serves.

 

[pescador]

The necessity of obedience definitely needs to be on our radar-as our intention. It's good to hear and to know the law, for example. But the actual accomplishing of that obedience, OTOH, doesn't come by our attempts to obey, but by our love for God and neighbor. That should be our goal. The law may tell us what that love would "look like", but love, itself, is what does the authentic fulfilling.

And so the first goal is to enter union with God, which happens via faith, the very first right and just step for man in response to His calling, to His grace. Then He does a work in us, beginning at justification and proceeding over time, of putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, of causing us to love as He does IOW, a work in which we participate.

Great post!

 

[TedT]

1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful...etc, etc. Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of / conviction of sin. Awareness is 1922 epígnōsis "knowledge gained through first-hand relationship." What can this mean if not that the law was / is given to sinners to open their eyes to their need for a saviour so they may repent and plead for salvation???

Though this adds up very well theoretically, i can't help but wonder why were Adam and Eve given a command if they were righteous in their innocence when the law is only given to sinners to convict them of sin?

How could they be (implied to be) sinful before they ate to get the command not to eat?

 

[Carl Emerson]

No, we become a mature believer by obedience.
I am sure we can agree that love becomes more natural with maturity,
but as I have said twice already, and the list of scriptures I cited confirm,
obedience precedes the fervent love that the apostles describe.


Did they not ask for permission to call fire down on someone?
And what was the answer?
"You don't know what spirit you are of"!!!

OK - first I appreciate this conversation.

The issue is as a prodigal son and my return to faith was undeserved and not of my doing.

My collision with Him was about His Love and Holy Fear.

Jer 32:40 speaks of His fear keeping us in righteousness.

So my restoration was totally undeserved and not a function of my obedience.

I had some great saints praying for me and this was also a factor.

I then had 7 years restoration - lots of healing, deliverance and prayer.

Over 5 years reading only scripture.

So I honestly cant attribute any aspect of my salvation to myself including obedience.

To me His Faith and Love undergirds all.

For this reason my foundation is His Love and Faithfullness.

I think one's theology is influenced by ones personal journey.

For this reason I am very much believing in His Grace.

I think also we can use the text of scripture to demand certain conclusions when the Holy Spirit is saying something else.

Classic case was the woman caught in adultery.

Sorry if this response is a bit vague, I am under some time pressure.

 

[Minister Monardo]

So I honestly cant attribute any aspect of my salvation to myself including obedience.

Yes Carl, the Lord continues to love the prodigal, and draws him back with love.
Jeremiah 31:
2 Thus says the Lord:
The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness—
Israel, when I went to give him rest.
3 The Lord has appeared to me, saying:
Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.

Here is the disconnect. Your thread was not about your salvation, and grace.
It is about you trying to use your testimony to force this idea that the object
of the Law is love, not obedience. In spite of all the scriptures that teach us
that the law was given to convict the world as sinners. That it is not for
righteousness, but to convict of unrighteousness. Yes, salvation is by grace
alone. No one is saved by their own obedience, and as your experiences attest,
it is His love, and the faithfulness of others that brought us back. Yes, us. for I
too had an extended time of prodigal experiences after committing to Christ at 12.

I think one's theology is influenced by ones personal journey.
For this reason I am very much believing in His Grace.
I think also we can use the text of scripture to demand certain conclusions when the Holy Spirit is saying something else.
Classic case was the woman caught in adultery.
Sorry if this response is a bit vague, I am under some time pressure.

You sounded rushed, so I really want to give you the benefit of the doubt here.
What you have said here is that everyone has their own theology based on personal
experiences, and their interpretation of scripture as well. I pray that you will reconsider,
and recant from that position, as it is blasphemous. The only person offering a personal
interpretation is you, and you are way off topic for your own thread. The object of the Law is obedience, and being a prodigal means you failed to remain obedient.
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the
children of disobedience:
We all depend completely on Grace, which is rooted objectively in His Love.
The object of grace is to prove God's love for us. John 3:16.
Yes, the law and the testimony all speak of and direct us to Christ, but the commandments are about obedience.
You have held a contrary position on this, in spite of all the scriptures that have
been quoted by participants that speak of obedience. The Law fails to bring us
to the righteousness of God because of the weakness of the flesh.
Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God, by
sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin:
He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do
not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

To walk by the Spirit is the very definition of obedience,
in spirit and in truth.
The Love of God, manifesting in mercy and grace brings reconciliation and
forgiveness for the rebellious and disobedient. Not by Law, by Grace.
Is that not the heart of the Gospel, especially Paul's teachings?
The Holy Spirit "writes the Law on our hearts" by conviction of conscience.
And here is where I will agree with you.
It is our love response to His love that objectively leads us to obey Him.
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Deuteronomy 30:20 That you may love the LORD thy God, and that you may obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days:

 

[pescador]

OK - first I appreciate this conversation.

The issue is as a prodigal son and my return to faith was undeserved and not of my doing.

My collision with Him was about His Love and Holy Fear.

Jer 32:40 speaks of His fear keeping us in righteousness.

So my restoration was totally undeserved and not a function of my obedience.

I had some great saints praying for me and this was also a factor.

I then had 7 years restoration - lots of healing, deliverance and prayer.

Over 5 years reading only scripture.

So I honestly cant attribute any aspect of my salvation to myself including obedience.

To me His Faith and Love undergirds all.

For this reason my foundation is His Love and Faithfullness.

I think one's theology is influenced by ones personal journey.

For this reason I am very much believing in His Grace.

I think also we can use the text of scripture to demand certain conclusions when the Holy Spirit is saying something else.

Classic case was the woman caught in adultery.

Sorry if this response is a bit vague, I am under some time pressure.

It ain't vague brother; it's a wonderful story.

 

[Fervent]

The necessity of obedience definitely needs to be on our radar-as our intention. It's good to hear and to know the law, for example. But the actual accomplishing of that obedience, OTOH, doesn't come by our attempts to obey, but by our love for God and neighbor. That should be our goal. The law may tell us what that love would "look like", but love, itself, is what does the authentic fulfilling.

And so the first goal is to enter union with God, which happens via faith, the very first right and just step for man in response to His calling, to His grace. Then He does a work in us, beginning at justification and proceeding over time, of putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, of causing us to love as He does IOW, a work in which we participate.

This seems true initially, but I think on deeper reflection there's an adjustment I would make to it. It is not our love for God that engenders obedience, but a deeper revelation of God's love for us. So our intention should not be to love God more, because such an intention will never grow our love. We cannot will ourselves into love, it happens as a response to receiving God's love for us. Even in loving others, it is often better to be an empty vessel giving from the overflow of God's love for us rather than attempting to love others from our own abilities.

 

[fhansen]

This seems true initially, but I think on deeper reflection there's an adjustment I would make to it. It is not our love for God that engenders obedience, but a deeper revelation of God's love for us. So our intention should not be to love God more, because such an intention will never grow our love. We cannot will ourselves into love, it happens as a response to receiving God's love for us. Even in loving others, it is often better to be an empty vessel giving from the overflow of God's love for us rather than attempting to love others from our own abilities.

No, that doesn't sound like His way here. God's purpose is to make us like Himself; He wants the highest and best for us. And God is love. And we should want what He wants.

As with all good things love comes from Him, just as faith and hope do, for example. And we should want those things, we should want His will to be done in us, we should aspire to the loftiest goal He has in mind as we become aware of it. And yes, desiring/choosing good and achieving it are two different things-but to the extent that we desire anything good from God, He will grant it. He wants us to be lovers-of Himself and neighbor; that's why He told us to do centuries ago. He wants us to be lovers-otherwise we're just thwarting His plans. And love never boasts; love is humble, gentle, meek, and kind.

 

[Fervent]

No, that doesn't sound like His way here. God's purpose is to make us like Himself; He wants the highest and best for us. And God is love. And we should want what He wants.

As with all good things love comes from Him, just as faith and hope do, for example. And we should want those things, we should want His will to be done in us, we should aspire to the loftiest goal He has in mind as we become aware of it. And yes, desiring/choosing good and achieving it are two different things-but to the extent that we desire anything good from God, He will grant it. He wants us to be lovers-of Himself and neighbor. He wants us to be lovers-otherwise we're just thwarting His plans. And love never boasts; love is humble, gentle, meek, and kind.

No one learns to love by force of will. Love of God is a response, which is why those who know God's love are responsible for showing God's love to those who do not know God's love. But loving others is done from the overflow of God's love for us, not from the interior of our person. We certainly should desire to live out the love of God, but doing so requires us recognizing our complete dependence upon Him. As Paul says, when I am weak then I am strong. The issue I have with your post isn't with its intended aim, but that it seems to indicate that this is something we can accomplish through force of will as if we initiate the love relationship with God at any point.

 

[fhansen]

No one learns to love by force of will. Love of God is a response, which is why those who know God's love are responsible for showing God's love to those who do not know God's love. But loving others is done from the overflow of God's love for us, not from the interior of our person. We certainly should desire to live out the love of God, but doing so requires us recognizing our complete dependence upon Him. As Paul says, when I am weak then I am strong. The issue I have with your post isn't with its intended aim, but that it seems to indicate that this is something we can accomplish through force of will as if we initiate the love relationship with God at any point.

Love should be a goal of every Christian. If I said it could be done by force of will I was in error.

The obligation to love is a good and worthy one, and incomparably good one, which is why God gave it to us in the greatest commandments. Love is the cure for what ails this world as God is that cure. The fulfilling of the obligation can only come by virtue of being in communion/fellowship with Him-and that’s a major difference between the old and new covenants, in fact.

I’ll say one more thing, unless love comes from the interior of our person, it’s fake anyway.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Hi there,

We are told there is no Law against Love.

We are told that if we knew the difference between compassion and sacrifice, we would not have condemned the innocent.

I invite discussion on this important truth.

The Law was never meant to be an instrument of control, but a message from God's heart for our good.

Obedience both requires love and perfects it.
Heb 5:8
Though He was a Son, He learned obedience through the things that He suffered, 9 and being made perfect,

 

[Fervent]

Love should be a goal of every Christian. If I said it could be done by force of will I was in error.

The obligation to love is a good and worthy one, which is why God gave it to us in the greatest commandments. Love is the cure for what ails this world as God is that cure. The fulfilling of the obligation can only come by virtue of being in communion/fellowship with Him-and that’s a major difference between the old and new covenants, in fact.

I agree, which is why I said I initially agreed with your post. It was only on reflection that I arrived at a potential adjustment to it, in that the means of accomplishing that goal is not a matter of trying harder or working towards loving God but in actively pursuing God's love for us. We love others more effectively by first being filled with the love of God. More conduit than agent.

 

[fhansen]

I agree, which is why I said I initially agreed with your post. It was only on reflection that I arrived at a potential adjustment to it, in that the means of accomplishing that goal is not a matter of trying harder or working towards loving God but in actively pursuing God's love for us. We love others more effectively by first being filled with the love of God. More conduit than agent.

Alright, conduit is good, but it’s both/and as I see it, not either/or, with God wanting us to love as He does. As I added to my last post, “unless love comes from the interior of our person, it’s fake anyway.” I mean, when I find myself moved by compassion at the plight of an unfortunate person, motivating me to feed the hungry or clothe the naked, as examples, that’s only a good thing.