What is "The Great tribulation"?

Jamdoc · Jan 27, 2022

DavidPT said:
Are you now an Amil? Or maybe you have been Amil this entire time but that I never realized it? If satan's little season is after His return this would mean there is still death after His return, yet you said His return puts an end to it.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them .

What I have underlined if that doesn't involve death what does it involve?

I don't see His return as a singular event but an enduring presence.
so His return doesn't just instant nuke everything and then poof new creation which is what Amils kinda go with
I see a return of Jesus resulting in the wrath of God being poured over over the world over the course of some time, bare minimum 5 months, and then the Millennium Kingdom, and then that last revolt THEN creation is unmade and it goes right to the GWT and eternity, and yeah then there's no death and no sin.
so sure. But I refer to all of that as "his second coming" because it's a parousia, which is a presence, not just the arrival.
but Jesus is not physically on the earth ruling and reigning and it's been more than 1000 years since AD70

WhoIsLikeGod? · Jan 27, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
New Testament mentions of persecution and tribulation

Persecution:

Of Jesus: John 5:16

Of Christians:- Matthew 5: 19 & 12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1: 13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11.

Of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13.

Of the world at the hand of Christians: 0.00

Tribulation:

Of apostles or Christians:- Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9, 21 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:19 & 24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 3: 4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14;

Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9

Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6

Great Tribulation:

Only three times does the New Testament use the Greek word megas (great) to describe the intensity of the tribulation (thlipsis):-

As the experience of Christians:- Revelation 2:22 (Greek words megas thlipsis); Revelation 7:14 (Greek words megas thlipsis).

Some say of Christians in the following verse, some say of Jews in A.D 70: Matthew 24:21 (Greek words megas thlipsis, see also Matthew 24:9, & Matthew 24:29).

Judgment and wrath vs tribulation in the Bible

1. Wrath: God's wrath has come upon a nation or nations at various times.
2. Judgment: God's judgment has come upon a nation or nations at various times.
3. Final Judgment. There are only two final judgments mentioned in the Bible.
4. Tribulation: A word which describes the experience of humans. The word is not necessarily linked to God's judgment.
5. Intense (great) tribulation.

WRATH
God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT
God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement:

A final judgement came upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city, but a final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city (at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon).

FINAL JUDGMENT
The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being finally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being finally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

TRIBULATION
(i) Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and God’s elect people have experienced periods of tribulation more than once.

(ii) A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, (for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt),

but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's judgment, in much the same way as the seven last plagues will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image" (Revelation 16:2).

Luke 21:23 describes Jesus’ prophecy regarding the tribulation that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and mentions this period of tribulation as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) on this people."

SAVED FROM WRATH

The beast of Revelation 13 will make war against the saints and overcome them (Revelation 13:7)

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5
8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Luke 21 (talking about the wrath of God to come)
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts are weighed down with headaches and drinking and anxieties of this life; and that day should suddenly come on you;
35 for it shall come as a snare on all those sitting on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, praying in every season that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which shall occur, and to stand before the Son of man.

The Greek word tēréō means to guard (from loss or injury), by keeping the eye upon:

John 17
6 I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept (tēréō) Your word.

11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep (tēréō) them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept (tēréō) them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept (tēréō), and none of them is lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world that they might have My joy fulfilled in them.
14 I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep (tēréō) them from the evil.

There is not one verse in the New Testament where tēréō does not mean to observe, to guard, to keep. Not one.

Revelation 3
10 Because you have kept (tēréō) the word of My patience, I also will keep (tēréō) you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus is telling the faithful in His church that He will guard them, keep them, keep His eye upon them during the hour of trial. He is not saying that He will take them out of the world before the hour of trial has even come.

Hour of trial:

Revelation 17
12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast.

16 and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Revelation 18
10 standing afar off for fear of her torment, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, Babylon, that strong city! For in one hour your judgment came.

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:18-21).
The Harlot is decked with gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 17:4). She acts like she's very holy, and claims to be on fire for Christ, "filled with the Spirit".

When Revelation 17:16 comes upon the harlot, it comes upon the entire church. Every time God purged Israel in the past of its "dross" or its tares, the faithful suffered too (such as when Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and all went into captivity);

and Jesus has (i) rebuked and warned the harlot about this in Revelation 2:20-23; and (2) counseled the lukewarm in Revelation 3:18; and (3) commended the faithful in Revelation 2:8-11 and Revelation 3:7-13; and (4) exhorted all Christians in His closing statement to each one of the seven churches.

We see the immediate aftermath of it all in Revelation 7:13-17; and read about it erupting in Revelation 13:7; Revelation 13:15; and Revelation 17:16.

The New Testament, like the entire Bible, makes a clear distinction between wrath and tribulation.

"PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE"

Huh? Isn't this conflating tribulation with wrath? What is "The Great Tribulation"?

Revelation 7

The Jews
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel (Rev. 7:1–4).

The Gentiles
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,

“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying,

“Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

"Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 7:9–14).

The Jews and the gentiles go together. Salvation is a free gift to anyone who confesses the name of Jesus Christ as Lord. All of Revelation 7 refers to the same time period. The 144,000 sons of Israel will be sealed on their foreheads and the great multitude from every nation will come out of the great tribulation. Notice that in the next chapter, the earth, sea, and trees are harmed.

And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them.

The first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up (Rev. 8:6–7).

The second angel sounded, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea; and a third of the sea became blood, and a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed (Rev. 8:8–9).

The third angel sounded, and a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of waters. The name of the star is called Wormwood; and a third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter (Rev. 8:10–11).

The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way (Rev. 8:12).

Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads (Rev. 9:1–4).

Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, one saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind. The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. And this is how I saw in the vision the horses and those who sat on them: the riders had breastplates the color of fire and of hyacinth and of brimstone; and the heads of the horses are like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths proceed fire and smoke and brimstone. A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths (Rev. 9:13–18).

So the 144,000 will be protected from the first trumpet, the second trumpet, the third trumpet, and the fifth trumpet. These are the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea from Revelation 7:2. And the six trumpets of Revelation 8–9 compose the great tribulation of which the great multitude and the 144,000 come out. The seventh trumpet is the rapture.

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed (1 Co. 15:51–52).

Douggg · Jan 27, 2022

Minky said:
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed (1 Co. 15:51–52).

The verse says last trumpet, not seventh trumpet, nor any specific trumpet number. It can happen anytime, before God's wrath, comfort one another with these words.

For believers, the rapture will be the greatest thing ever because no more evil can happen to us - forever.

Evil being any bad thing, not just something that happens because of sin. Like sickness and suffering. I know everyone on this forum has suffered from evil. My heart goes out to you.

Evil has access to all mankind as long as we are in these bodies, ever since the garden, eating from the forbidden tree of knowing good and evil.
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God's plan is to eradicate evil, not just sin - which of course is an aspect of evil derived from eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Which during the thousand years, Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit, so that he does not have access to anyone to cause evil such as what he did to Job for example; thus mitigating evil during that time.

In the eternal picture, after the Great White Throne Judgment, evil all together will be eliminated, and we can eat freely from the tree of life.

In our hearts, we should jump up and down, and praise God day and night, for what He is going to do. Let God wrap His arms around you, and love each one of you.

DavidPT · Jan 28, 2022

Douggg said:
For believers, the rapture will be the greatest thing ever because no more evil can happen to us - forever.

You believe the rapture precedes the beginning of the the middle of the 70th week, the beginning of the great trib. You also believe those that are left behind, some of them will become believers during the great trib, thus totally contradicting what you said above. If one's position was Post Trib instead, then they said what you said above, there would be zero contradiction in what they said. Believers are believers regardless when they initially begin to believe. Except you said no evil will happen to believers ever again once the rapture happens. You're free to believe what you want, but to some of the rest of us, a rapture before the beginning of the trib is total nonsense and leads to even more nonsense proved by what you said above.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 28, 2022

DavidPT said:
In Matthew 24 it mentions the elect in a cpl of verses. Who do you take the elect to be meaning in those verses and why? Me, I take them to mean the saved, IOW of the church. Which means that great trib is cut short for their sakes, which makes zero sense since they all got out safely before what happened to Jerusalem happened to it.

How do you know they all got out safely? That wasn't even possible for some of them.

Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

If it was a guarantee that they would all get out safely, then why did Jesus say what He did in the passage above? Clearly, it wasn't a guarantee at all for some people to get out safely such as pregnant women and nursing moms and those who were not able to travel in the winter or were not willing to leave on the Sabbath day due to fear of punishment from God for not keeping the Sabbath. What about the elderly or people who couldn't walk or people who were bedridden?

Spiritual Jew · Jan 28, 2022

Douggg said:
The verse says last trumpet, not seventh trumpet, nor any specific trumpet number. It can happen anytime, before God's wrath, comfort one another with these words.

So, in what sense is the "last trumpet" actually the LAST trumpet in your view? What are the trumpets that precede the last trumpet in your view?

It appears that the seventh trumpet will be the last prophetic trumpet to sound. Why would the LAST trumpet not be the same as the seventh trumpet which will be the LAST prophetic trumpet to sound?

Spiritual Jew · Jan 28, 2022

DavidPT said:
You believe the rapture precedes the beginning of the the middle of the 70th week, the beginning of the great trib. You also believe those that are left behind, some of them will become believers during the great trib, thus totally contradicting what you said above. If one's position was Post Trib instead, then they said what you said above, there would be zero contradiction in what they said. Believers are believers regardless when they initially begin to believe. Except you said no evil will happen to believers ever again once the rapture happens. You're free to believe what you want, but to some of the rest of us, a rapture before the beginning of the trib is total nonsense and leads to even more nonsense proved by what you said above.

Good point. He said the rapture will be the greatest thing ever for believers and yet, in his view, other believers will not get to experience it. Why not? What makes anyone who is a believer after a supposed pre-trib rapture somehow inferior to those who believe before a supposed pre-trib rapture? Nothing. So, he doesn't even realize that his view promotes elitism by making those who believe before a supposed pre-trib rapture superior to those who would become believers after a supposed pre-trib rapture.

Any doctrine that would cause division within the church (in this case division between those who believe before a supposed pre-trib rapture and those who believe after that) is clearly false.

Douggg · Jan 28, 2022

DavidPT said:
You believe the rapture precedes the beginning of the the middle of the 70th week, the beginning of the great trib. You also believe those that are left behind, some of them will become believers during the great trib, thus totally contradicting what you said above.

The great tribulation is the time of Jacob's troubles, not the church's troubles.

DavidPT said:
If one's position was Post Trib instead, then they said what you said above, there would be zero contradiction in what they said. Believers are believers regardless when they initially begin to believe. Except you said no evil will happen to believers ever again once the rapture happens.

For them who are raptured, no evil will happen to them ever again. Because they will have been transformed into the everlasting incorruptible bodies.

Them who's souls are presently with the Lord, no evil will happen to them ever again, as well. They will receive their everlasting incorruptible bodies at the time of the resurrection of them sleeping in Christ and the translation of the living in Christ, the rapture/resurrection.

Post rapture believers will receive their everlasting incorruptible bodies at the time of the Great White Throne Judgement.
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The post trib view that you must go through the great tribulation, making a sham of comfort one another with these words - is not biblical.

Douggg · Jan 28, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
So, in what sense is the "last trumpet" actually the LAST trumpet in your view? What are the trumpets that precede the last trumpet in your view?

imo, it is a figure of speech, based on the trumpets sounding for movement of the camp in the Exodus.

It appears that the seventh trumpet will be the last prophetic trumpet to sound. Why would the LAST trumpet not be the same as the seventh trumpet which will be the LAST prophetic trumpet to sound?

Paul never said the seventh trumpet, nor any trumpet number. Nor did Paul say the last "prophetic trumpet" (a term you are devising).

You are trying to pinpoint the rapture to a certain event in Revelation 11 of when the two witnesses, after they are killed by the beast, are brought back to life and taken from the world.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:32-51 that He comes at a time you think not.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 28, 2022

Douggg said:
The great tribulation is the time of Jacob's troubles, not the church's troubles.

For them who are raptured, no evil will happen to them ever again. Because they will have been transformed into the everlasting incorruptible bodies.

Them who's souls are presently with the Lord, no evil will happen to them ever again, as well. They will receive their everlasting incorruptible bodies at the time of the resurrection of them sleeping in Christ and the translation of the living in Christ, the rapture/resurrection.

Post rapture believers will receive their everlasting incorruptible bodies at the time of the Great White Throne Judgement.

Where is that taught in scripture? I'm referring to your last statement.

The post trib view that you must go through the great tribulation, making a sham of comfort one another with these words - is not biblical.

What exactly is your understanding of "the great tribulation"? God's wrath? Persecution against believers? Both?

The post-trib view does not teach that any believers will suffer the wrath of God, if that's what you're saying. If you're saying that the purpose of the rapture is to keep people from being persecuted, then that is not biblical. All believers should expect to experience persecution, so it's not biblical to see the rapture as an escape from persecution.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 28, 2022

Douggg said:
imo, it is a figure of speech, based on the trumpets sounding for movement of the camp in the Exodus.

Can you elaborate on this? I don't know what you mean.

Paul never said the seventh trumpet, nor any trumpet number. Nor did Paul say the last "prophetic trumpet" (a term you are devising).

I didn't say that he did. But, he did call it the LAST trumpet. In what sense is it the LAST trumpet? You clearly have no reasonable explanation for that.

You are trying to pinpoint the rapture to a certain event in Revelation 11 of when the two witnesses, after they are killed by the beast, are brought back to life and taken from the world.

When did I indicate that I was doing that? I didn't. Where did you get this idea from? You do understand that my understanding of the two witnesses and of the beast is different than yours, don't you? I see the two witnesses as symbolically representing the church and not as two individuals like you do.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:32-51 that He comes at a time you think not.

Of course. Where exactly did I say otherwise?

Douggg · Jan 28, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
Where is that taught in scripture? I'm referring to your last statement.

Revelation 19:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

If you are looking for a specific statement of post rapture believers will receive their incorruptible bodies at the Great White Throne Judgement in those specific words, it is not a written statement. But it is implied by the text of Revelation 20:10-15.

Spiritual Jew said:
What exactly is your understanding of "the great tribulation"? God's wrath? Persecution against believers? Both?

The great tribulation will be a 1335 day long ordeal for all them who dwell upon the earth, beginning when the statue image of the beast is placed upon the temple mount. It will be a time of God's wrath and Satan's wrath, knowing he has but a little time left.

Douggg · Jan 28, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
Can you elaborate on this? I don't know what you mean.

The trumpet was used to move the camp to meet God at Mount Sinai, which they would hear God's voice, Himself.

Exodus 19:
10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,

11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:

13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.

15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.

16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

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The rapture is being caught up to Jesus, to meet the Lord in the air, at the sound of the last trumpet, i.e as trumpet sounding long, and exceeding loud. To be forever with the Lord.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 28, 2022

Douggg said:
Revelation 19:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

If you are looking for a specific statement of post rapture believers will receive their incorruptible bodies at the Great White Throne Judgement in those specific words, it is not a written statement. But it is implied by the text of Revelation 20:10-15.

Where are you seeing that implied in the text of Revelation 20:10-15 exactly?

Paul discussed the order of people receiving their incorruptible bodies in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Can you tell me why he wouldn't have mentioned those who supposedly receive their incorruptible bodies at the GWTJ when giving the order of receiving incorruptible bodies here? Did he somehow forget about them?

The great tribulation will be a 1335 day long ordeal for all them who dwell upon the earth, beginning when the statue image of the beast is placed upon the temple mount. It will be a time of God's wrath and Satan's wrath, knowing he has but a little time left.

I disagree with your understanding of that, but never mind that for now. Tell me why the rapture would need to occur before that time?

And please tell me why those who would believe after that time would not get the privilege of experiencing what you called "the greatest thing ever" while those who believe before that time would get to experience "the greatest thing ever"?

Spiritual Jew · Jan 28, 2022

Douggg said:
The trumpet was used to move the camp to meet God at Mount Sinai, which they would hear God's voice, Himself.

Exodus 30:
10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,

11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:

13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.

15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.

16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

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The rapture is being caught up to Jesus, to meet the Lord in the air, at the sound of the last trumpet, i.e as trumpet sounding long, and exceeding loud. To be forever with the Lord.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

None of this explains why it is called the LAST trumpet.

The fact that it's the LAST trumpet implies that there are trumpets which precede it. Your view has no explanation whatsoever for why it is called the LAST trumpet.

Douggg · Jan 28, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
Where are you seeing that implied in the text of Revelation 20:10-15 exactly?

It is implied because there is no continuation of verse 20:9-10.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This present earth and heaven is gone in Revelation 20:11.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Douggg · Jan 28, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
None of this explains why it is called the LAST trumpet.

The fact that it's the LAST trumpet implies that there are trumpets which precede it. Your view has no explanation whatsoever for why it is called the LAST trumpet.

It is the last trumpet because there is not going to be another trumpet to be called up to meet God. There was the first trumpet sounded of being called to meet God at Mt. Sinai. The last trumpet will be to meet Jesus in the air, at the rapture. So one trumpet to meet God has preceded the other.

Douggg · Jan 28, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
I disagree with your understanding of that, but never mind that for now. Tell me why the rapture would need to occur before that time?

The day of the Lord (when God's wrath is poured out) begins when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood. The rapture will take place "anytime" between now and then.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 28, 2022

Douggg said:
It is implied because there is no continuation of verse 20:9-10.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This present earth and heaven is gone in Revelation 20:11.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

I do believe that it happens just prior to the GWTJ because I believe Christ returns just prior to that and that is when the rapture occurs. But, you seem to be saying that it happens at the GWTJ itself. There is nothing to indicate that, though.

In my view, there is scripture which specifically refers to the timing of all believers receiving their incorruptible/immortal bodies (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54). Your view doesn't have any scripture which explicitly, or even implicitly, refers to supposed post-rapture believers receiving their incorruptible bodies. That's a major weakness of your view.

It would've made a lot of sense for Paul to have mentioned them in 1 Cor 15:22-23 when giving the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality, but he didn't. In your view, he somehow forgot to mention them there.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 28, 2022

Douggg said:
It is the last trumpet because there is not going to be another trumpet to be called up to meet God. There was the first trumpet sounded of being called to meet God at Mt. Sinai. The last trumpet will be to meet Jesus in the air, at the rapture. So one trumpet to meet God has preceded the other.

So, in your view, the last trumpet is the last of two trumpets. That's a completely unconvincing argument. But, at least you finally indicated in what sense you think it's the LAST trumpet. Not sure why you couldn't have said this in the first place when I asked that question.

What is "The Great tribulation"?

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