What is "The Great tribulation"?

[Jamdoc]

So then we're back to the choice:

1. Verifiable fulfilled history which confirms Scripture
2. Unverifiable unfulfilled futurity which can confirm nothing

I'll take #1. Every time.


John Nelson Darby:

"I do not admit history to be, in any sense, necessary to the understanding of prophecy."

You would agree?

"confirms Scripture"
only if you treat the promises of God as nothing but hyperbole.

 

[Douggg]

There is only 42 months of the Great Tribulation in the book of Revelation. The 1260 days of the two witnesses is the same basic timeframe.

The great tribulation is in Daniel 12, as well. You have to consider what is in Daniel 12, as well.

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

_______________________________

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


______________________________

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

______________________________


Since the great tribulation begins with the setting up of the abomination of desolation - not the beginning of the 42 months - the great tribulation will be 1335 days long.

Here is a chart I made which has the great tribulation of 1335 days long, and the 1290 days as well.

During the false messianic age, the two witnesses will be testifying to Israel not to trust the perceived messiah, the Antichrist. The two witnesses will be killed by the beast on day 1260. Then taken from the world on day 1263.5. The beast will then rule 42 months in their absence.

 

[Jamdoc]

Paul didn't refer to Antiochus Epiphanes IV.

Hey so looks like Paul was talking about the same event as Jesus was talking about, which is the same event as what Daniel is talking about.. sounds like Daniel's prophecy about the temple's animal sacrifices being stopped by the Abomination of Desolation, and then being restored in 2300 days is relevant, and from where Jesus was talking, still a future event.
Since that has not happened in the past.. that makes it future.
You can either believe what the bible says
or you don't, and twist the scripture to make it mean something else.
But one is belief
the other is rooted in unbelief.

 

[Jamdoc]

staff edit

Okay but the relevant passages regarding the Great Tribulation are from Jesus, not Paul, and Jesus cited Daniel, making Daniel also relevant.
Daniel said 2300 days and talked about regular evening and morning animal sacrifices at the temple being stopped (Abomination of Desolation), and Jesus referred His disciples to Daniel, and then said the Great Tribulation comes after the Abomination of Desolation.
Daniel's account mentions that after 2300 evenings and mornings

Daniel 8

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Many other translations say 2300 evenings and mornings to specify that they are 24 hour days, and not prophetic days.

Jesus referred to this, and said it was a future event.
For you to claim that what Jesus was referring to in the Olivet Discourse was a historical event, you would need to show how after 2300 evenings and mornings, the temple was restored after Jesus ascended (because it was treated as a future event by Jesus), but before our modern day.

 

[jgr]

Okay but the relevant passages regarding the Great Tribulation are from Jesus, not Paul, and Jesus cited Daniel, making Daniel also relevant.
Daniel said 2300 days and talked about regular evening and morning animal sacrifices at the temple being stopped (Abomination of Desolation), and Jesus referred His disciples to Daniel, and then said the Great Tribulation comes after the Abomination of Desolation.
Daniel's account mentions that after 2300 evenings and mornings

Daniel 8


Many other translations say 2300 evenings and mornings to specify that they are 24 hour days, and not prophetic days.

Jesus referred to this, and said it was a future event.
For you to claim that what Jesus was referring to in the Olivet Discourse was a historical event, you would need to show how after 2300 evenings and mornings, the temple was restored after Jesus ascended (because it was treated as a future event by Jesus), but before our modern day.

You talk about Daniel.

I'll talk about Paul.

 

[Jamdoc]

You talk about Daniel.

I'll talk about Paul.

If you want to ignore Jesus on the matter that's your own choice, but I think Paul would tell you to listen to Jesus even over himself.
But Jesus was the one that talks about Great Tribulation, and Jesus refers to Daniel.

 

[jgr]

If you want to ignore Jesus on the matter that's your own choice, but I think Paul would tell you to listen to Jesus even over himself.
But Jesus was the one that talks about Great Tribulation, and Jesus refers to Daniel.

Verifiable historical fulfillments of Matthew 24.

DECEIVERS

Matthew: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (24:4,5).

Mark: "And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (13:5,6).

Luke: "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them" (21:8).

Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour's death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY—a statement which indicates that there were "many" of such in those days.

An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down."

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet. These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were "a great number," and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be "many."

WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

Matthew: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" (24:6,7).

Mark: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:7, 8).

Luke: "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (21:9,10).

We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes. Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."

Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: "See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet." The word "end" that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression "end of the world." As Barnes says, the end here referred to is "the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem."

Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

FAMINES, PESTILENCES, EARTHQUAKES

Matthew. "And there shall be famines and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places, all these are the beginning of sorrows (24:7,8).

Mark: "And there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These are the beginning of sorrows" (13:8).

Luke: "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines and pestilences, and fearful sights" (21:11).

The Bible records that there was famine "throughout all the world...in the days of Claudius Caesar (Acts 11:28). Judea was especially hard hit by famine. "The disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea" (verse 29). Paul's instructions concerning this "collection [of fruit] for the saints" is recorded in First Corinthians 16:1-5; Rom. 15:25-28.

Historians such as Suetonius and others mention famine during those years. Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. Yes, there were famines in those years before the fall of Jerusalem.

Along with famines, Jesus mentioned pestilence; that is, plagues, the spread of disease, epidemics. Famine and pestilence, of course, go hand in hand. When people do not have proper food or insufficient food, pestilence results. Suetonius wrote of "pestilence" at Rome in the days of Nero which was so severe that "within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons." Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A. D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 65. Yes, there were pestilences in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

During this period, Jesus said there would also be earthquakes in many places. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote that "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down" and that "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake."

Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said: "How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! how many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! how many in Macedonia! how often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity ! how often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once." He mentions the earthquake at Campania during the reign of Nero. In 60 A.D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown—Laodicea being so self-sufficient that it recovered without the Imperial aid furnished other cities. In 63 A.D,, the city of Pompeii was greatly damaged by earthquake. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in divers places.

Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow

 

[jgr]

If you want to ignore Jesus on the matter that's your own choice, but I think Paul would tell you to listen to Jesus even over himself.
But Jesus was the one that talks about Great Tribulation, and Jesus refers to Daniel.

"The Great Tribulation - Future or Fulfilled?" by Ralph Woodrow (the-highway.com)

 

[Jamdoc]

Verifiable historical fulfillments of Matthew 24.

DECEIVERS

Matthew: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (24:4,5).

Mark: "And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (13:5,6).

Luke: "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them" (21:8).

Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour's death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY—a statement which indicates that there were "many" of such in those days.

An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down."

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet. These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were "a great number," and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be "many."

WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

Matthew: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" (24:6,7).

Mark: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:7, 8).

Luke: "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (21:9,10).

We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes. Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."

Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: "See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet." The word "end" that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression "end of the world." As Barnes says, the end here referred to is "the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem."

Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

FAMINES, PESTILENCES, EARTHQUAKES

Matthew. "And there shall be famines and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places, all these are the beginning of sorrows (24:7,8).

Mark: "And there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These are the beginning of sorrows" (13:8).

Luke: "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines and pestilences, and fearful sights" (21:11).

The Bible records that there was famine "throughout all the world...in the days of Claudius Caesar (Acts 11:28). Judea was especially hard hit by famine. "The disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea" (verse 29). Paul's instructions concerning this "collection [of fruit] for the saints" is recorded in First Corinthians 16:1-5; Rom. 15:25-28.

Historians such as Suetonius and others mention famine during those years. Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. Yes, there were famines in those years before the fall of Jerusalem.

Along with famines, Jesus mentioned pestilence; that is, plagues, the spread of disease, epidemics. Famine and pestilence, of course, go hand in hand. When people do not have proper food or insufficient food, pestilence results. Suetonius wrote of "pestilence" at Rome in the days of Nero which was so severe that "within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons." Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A. D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 65. Yes, there were pestilences in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

During this period, Jesus said there would also be earthquakes in many places. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote that "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down" and that "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake."

Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said: "How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! how many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! how many in Macedonia! how often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity ! how often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once." He mentions the earthquake at Campania during the reign of Nero. In 60 A.D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown—Laodicea being so self-sufficient that it recovered without the Imperial aid furnished other cities. In 63 A.D,, the city of Pompeii was greatly damaged by earthquake. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in divers places.

Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow

all of those things are vague non signs that happen constantly, even to our day. They never stopped, and will never stop, until Jesus establishes the millennial kingdom.

The first and most important definitive "this is it" sign, is the Abomination of Desolation, which is, calling back to Daniel. Jesus even mentions him by name.
and if you THINK something was the abomination of desolation.. and.... Jesus didn't return to Earth within 3.5 years of it?
Well
you're wrong.

 

[jgr]

all of those things are vague non signs that happen constantly, even to our day

So Jesus was wasting His and His disciples' time with "vague non signs".

 

[jgr]

and if you THINK something was the abomination of desolation

If you THINK Luke (and the Holy Spirit) were wrong, tell Him the next time you pray.

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

 

[Jamdoc]

So Jesus was wasting His and His disciples' time with "vague non signs".

Well He does say "see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

Now if you want to say that "the beginning of troubles" started in that time? Sure... fine.. we could be said to be in "the beginning of troubles" for the past 2000 years.
But when using the term "Great Tribulation"
Jesus defines that as starting after the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel.
Meaning, we go back to Daniel and understand what He was talking about. Part of that understanding is seeing that it is a finite time of time, times, and half a time.. and that from the beginning of daily sacrifices and them being cut off, and the cleansing and restoration of the Temple, is 2300 evenings and mornings, so a little over 6 years.
The scripture simply does not allow 2000 years of "great tribulation"
Not by Jesus' definition.

 

[Jamdoc]

If you THINK Luke (and the Holy Spirit) were wrong, tell Him the next time you pray.

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Precursor fulfillment vs true fulfillment.
or are you typing across a dimensional rift from a world where there is no death, no pain, and no sin?
what's it like in a world without funerals, crime, war, and pain?

 

[jgr]

Well He does say "see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

Jesus didn't think they were "vague non signs", otherwise he would not have wasted His and His disciples' time with them.

He explained that they were not themselves the great tribulation, but were harbingers of that tribulation, which occurred in AD 70.

But when using the term "Great Tribulation"
Jesus defines that as starting after the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel.

What is the Scripture reference in which He defines that?

 

[jgr]

Precursor fulfillment vs true fulfillment.
or are you typing across a dimensional rift from a world where there is no death, no pain, and no sin?
what's it like in a world without funerals, crime, war, and pain?

Who were "ye" in Luke 21:20?

 

[Jamdoc]

Jesus didn't think they were "vague non signs", otherwise he would not have wasted His and His disciples' time with them.

He explained that they were not themselves the great tribulation, but were harbingers of that tribulation, which occurred in AD 70.



What is the Scripture reference in which He defines that?

Matthew 24:21-22 comes after Matthew 24:15.

 

[Jamdoc]

Who were "ye" in Luke 21:20?

Believers, disciples of Jesus.

Remember that Jesus said He Himself did not know exactly when this would happen Mark 13:32. He knew what would happen but not when. The when is only known by the Father.

But if you're going to go full preterist with these remarks that it's all fulfilled during the generation of the Apostles..
Then you're left trying to defend a pre 70AD writing of Revelation, and you're left explaining why there is still death, sin, and pain.
How is the world still fallen if the restoration of all things already took place?

 

[jgr]

Matthew 24:21-22 comes after Matthew 24:15.

True.

The advance on Jerusalem of the abomination of desolation i.e the Roman armies, was followed by the great tribulation.

 

[Jamdoc]

True.

The advance on Jerusalem of the abomination of desolation i.e the Roman armies, was followed by the great tribulation.

The Roman army was not the Abomination of Desolation.
It could not have been, because it did not result in the temple being cleansed and restored, and did not result in the return of Jesus.

 

[jgr]

Believers, disciples of Jesus.

His disciples who were physically present at His discourse.

Remember that Jesus said He Himself did not know exactly when this would happen Mark 13:32. He knew what would happen but not when. The when is only known by the Father.

Mark 13:30

1074 [e]
genea
γενεὰ
generation
N-NFS

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30