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Featured What is the Gospel?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Also there is the possibility that one might make the mistake of thinking that they have to produce good works in order to be saved; in which case their focus is now no longer on Jesus but on what they can do to save themselves. Therefore they would not be cultivating faith in Jesus which is the only way they can produce the right kind of works; because their focus is off-base their works will all be dead.

    In order to avoid this pitfall I am more comfortable preaching the reality that faith alone in Jesus is what saves, and that we ought not to focus on works, lest we begin to think that we are saving ourselves in the doing of them; thus taking away from the reality of how Christ has saved us through the finished work of redemption (for He said from the Cross, Te Telestai, that is, It is finished).
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Salvation begins with faith, ends with faith, and is by faith all the way through (Galatians 3:1-6, Colossians 2:6, Romans 1:17).

    It says somewhere in Ezekiel that the third time the sword shall do double damage.
     
  3. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17, 23) and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message.
     
  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Hi @Soyeong,

    (long time no see, and welcome back!)

    How do I repent of not wearing tzitzit? I do not have access to any kind of shop that sells garments that have tzitzit attached to them; and if I did, I'm not sure I would want to wear those garments everywhere and every day (since I am not Jewish and I feel that it might be a lie to testify that I am Jewish in such a manner). I would also have to purchase enough outfits to last until my next laundry day every cycle.

    I also don't have a chofar to blow every new moon; something else that the Mosaic law requires.

    It seems to me that the Mosaic law is impossible to keep.

    Starting my car on the sabbath day is a violation of Torah, it is kindling a fire. That would mean that I cannot travel anywhere on Saturdays, except by walking.

    And even with that, scribes and Pharisees in Jesus' day interpreted the sabbath laws to mean that I could not walk more than one mile on the sabbath. So much for going with the Roman soldier twain when he forced you to go one mile. One could not keep Jesus' commandment to go the extra mile and keep the sabbath if it was on that particular day that one was forced to go a mile. Which one is more important? Jesus' commandment? Or Moses'?
     
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    God forbid that the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet should happen on the sabbath day! The letter of the law would keep you from being able to flee to the mountains! (see Matthew 24:15-21).
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    The law was meant to show us that we are sinners in need of a Saviour and that is all (Galatians 3:24-25, Romans 3:19-20, Psalms 19:7). So yes the law defines for us what sin is.

    No one can keep the law (Galatians 3:21-22, Galatians 6:13; see also Galatians 3:10-13).
     
  7. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Even under the New Covenant, the relationship between believers and God requires works (John 15:14).

    Are you thinking of the idea of Romans 4:4? If so, note that it does not apply to the ultimate salvation of those who are already Christians, for a master does not go into debt to his servant (Luke 17:10).

    No one is without sin (Romans 3:9-12).

    Faith itself is a gift (John 6:65).

    Only an Old Covenant Jew, not a New Covenant Jew (Acts 22:3).

    Galatians 3:19-25 explains what the use was of the temporary letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law.

    Even the New Covenant has a sacrifice (Hebrews 10:1-23). And the New Covenant is made only with Jews (Jeremiah 31:31). Gentile Christians partake of it by being grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

    No, non-Christian Jews are still Jews (1 Corinthians 10:32).

    No, it deals with both Israel and Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

    Nonelect individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, such as Pharaoh, are the (plural) vessels of wrath (Romans 9:17-22).

    He did (de jure) as soon as he sold his birthright (Hebrews 12:16).

    He had already received the birthright (de jure) from Esau.

    No proof that he hadn't done works.

    It is, ultimately (Matthew 7:21).

    As are other individuals in the Church (1 Corinthians 6:11).
     
  8. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    But we will be cut off from the vine if we fail to bear good fruit (John 15:2a).

    That's right, in the sense that we can't bear good fruit apart from being connected to the vine (John 15:4).

    But being connected to the vine does not assure the bearing of good fruit for the rest of our lives. Because of free will, we can eventually become wicked and lazy, to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

    Not at all. For if a non-producing branch were not connected, then it would not have to be taken off of the vine (John 15:2a).

    That is, even a non-producing branch is still "in" Christ before it is taken away (John 15:2a).

    Ultimately, salvation is through both faith and works (James 2:24).

    No, it's both. That's why Christians must "be careful to maintain good works" (Titus 3:8).

    It's both (2 Corinthians 5:9).

    *******
    That is not a mistake, but what the Bible says with regard to ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8).

    No, for there is no way that we can ever save ourselves (John 14:6). We can't even do any good works apart from Jesus (John 15:5b).

    That is not reality with regard to ultimate salvation, because there must also be obedience (Hebrews 5:9).

    *******

    Ultimate salvation requires more than just faith (Matthew 7:21).

    Regarding Galatians 3:1-6, verses 2-3 refer to works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (e.g. Galatians 6:12-13).

    Regarding Colossians 2:6, "walk" can be figurative of good works in addition to faith, just as "walked" in Colossians 3:7 is figurative of sinful works (Colossians 3:5-7).

    Regarding Romans 1:17, faith must perform works if it is to remain alive (James 2:26). Also, because of free will, faith can be abandoned (Hebrews 6:4-8).

    For God does the initial saving of Christians by granting them His miraculous gift of faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8). But His gift of this faith is like a paramedic causing the restarting of breathing of a non-breathing person by mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. Just as the resuscitated person must subsequently begin to breathe on his own if he is to remain alive, so a Christian must continue to believe in Jesus (Colossians 1:23) if he is to be ultimately saved (Hebrews 3:6,12,14). For just as it is possible for a resuscitated person to breathe on his own only for awhile, and then wrongly employ his free will to hang himself, so it is possible for a Christian to believe in Jesus only for awhile (Luke 8:13) and then wrongly employ his free will to depart from the Christian faith (1 Timothy 4:1), to the ultimate loss of his salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8).

    For Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that Christians, who have repented and become partakers of God's Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other Bible verses show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

    One way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the Christian faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they are no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

    Another way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense (2 Thessalonians 2:3) during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the future Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), and worshipping the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if he had been a Christian before, will end up suffering punishment from God in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do any of these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

    This ties in with the fact that a Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life, if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of Christians ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528), or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2), is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

    Instead, Ezekiel 21:14 says: "let the sword be doubled the third time", meaning increased eight-fold. This could refer to a nuclear weapon having its destructive power multiplied eight times. Compare the "ruins multiplied" in Ezekiel 21:15.

    *******

    Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, do not have to keep the sabbath of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For even the letter of the Ten Commandments, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13), was part of the abolished Old Covenant Mosaic law's ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:6-7, Exodus 31:15b), which has been replaced by the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) ministration of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:6-18), in which all Christians are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and keep the spirit (Romans 7:6) of all of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments by loving others (Romans 13:8-10).

    Saying that Christians have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath is just as mistaken as saying that Christians have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision (Acts 15:1-11). If Christians keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath thinking that they have to, because it is part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, then they are as fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) as Christians who keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision thinking that they have to because it is part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:2). They have become debtors to perform the letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:3). They have placed themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10, Deuteronomy 27:26).

    So no Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, should ever desire to go back into bondage under the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8). Christians need to keep the sabbath only in spirit, not in the letter (Romans 7:6). Christians must never judge other Christians for not keeping the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath (Colossians 2:16), which letter was abolished on the New Covenant Cross of Jesus Christ, along with all of the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Colossians 2:14-17, Ephesians 2:15-16, Romans 7:6, Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

    For its letter was merely a shadow. Now it all comes down to Jesus Christ Himself (Colossians 2:17). Jesus' New Covenant sabbath rest (Matthew 11:28-30), which all Christians enter by faith (Hebrews 4:3-4), exceeds in righteousness (cf. Matthew 5:20) the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath. For under the New Covenant sabbath, Christians must cease from their own works, as in those works done apart from abiding in Jesus (John 15:4-5), every day of the week (Hebrews 4:3,10, Luke 9:23). And they can esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5).

    Also, Christians should be worshipping God every day of the week (Hebrews 13:15, cf. Psalms 145:2). And they should be meeting together every day of the week (Hebrews 3:13, Hebrews 10:25), at least in some fashion (Matthew 18:20), such as on this forum. The early Church started assembling together on the Lord's day (commonly called Sunday) instead of on the sabbath (commonly called Saturday) because the Lord's day, the first day of the week, was the day on which Jesus Christ physically resurrected (Mark 16:9) from the dead: "no longer observing the sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him" (Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, chapter 9. Ignatius was a contemporary of the apostle John. Compare John's reference to "the Lord's day" in Revelation 1:10).

    But it is not a requirement for Christians to assemble together only on the Lord's day, or to esteem the Lord's day above every other day of the week. It is also okay for Christians to choose to assemble together on the sabbath, because they esteem the sabbath above every other day of the week. It is also okay for Christians to esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5). Christians are never to judge each other over this matter, but are simply to do what they believe that Jesus Christ wants them as individuals to do (Romans 14:4-13). So the point is not for Christians to esteem days, but to focus on the person of Jesus Himself (Colossians 2:16-17).

    Also, how do those who think that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant sabbath keep the letter of the sabbath of Leviticus 25?
     
  9. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that on Jesus Christ's Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52) of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the second covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

    All Christians, whether Jews or Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and should not keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Christians keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

    The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18-19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus Christ's New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those which He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there is no reason for any Christian to ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after He had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before He brought this promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

    The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), whereas the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices for sin (Leviticus 23:19), whereas the New Covenant replaced these with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ Himself on the Cross (Hebrews 10).

    The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:21-25). So those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, Abraham's son by a bondmaid (Galatians 4:22), who was cast out (Galatians 4:30), while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:28), Abraham's son by a freewoman (Galatians 4:22,31), who became his heir (Galatians 4:30b).

    The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, including the letter of its Ten Commandments written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8.

    The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been completely and forever done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it is still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), while the New Covenant is the ministration of the Spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8-9b), which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits Christians to remove the veil, and to behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

    But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even some Christians into thinking that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law to be saved from hell (Acts 15:1,5), or to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any Christians are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law thinking that they must do so to be saved from hell, or to become perfect, then Jesus Christ will profit them nothing. They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).
     
  10. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    In the Old Covenant, the wages of sin is death. In the New, grace covers even the thorn in Paul’s side. Paul was good to go to receive the blessings promised to Abraham. Even the least in the New is greater than the greatest in the Old Covenant, John the Baptist. John’s wages was death, my gift from God is the enabling to be a blessing to the world. Grace works like that, through faith, loyalty: which may not require works, if I’m a quadriplegic.


    Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: if thy brother sin, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

    4 And if he sin against thee seven times in the day, and seven times turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

    5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

    6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye would say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou rooted up, and be thou planted in the sea; and it would obey you.

    7 But who is there of you, having a servant plowing or keeping sheep, that will say unto him, when he is come in from the field, Come straightway and sit down to meat; 8 and will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?

    9 Doth he thank the servant because he did the things that were commanded?

    10 Even so ye also, when ye shall have done all the things that are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which it was our duty to do.

    Don't misquote Scripture: Luke 17:10 doesn’t deal with the Master becoming indebted to the servant. Rather, it deals with the appropriateness of the servant in demanding anything (faith, strength) from their Master. They have no business coming to work if they don’t have the strength. Please read what they were asking for. Jesus changes their status from servant to friend much later.

    David’s child went to a better place. Ergo, he was without sin.

    God puts people in distress till they break, hoping they will seek Him. When they do, He gives them to Christ:

    Acts 17:26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

    John 12:32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."


    If Paul was a New Covenant Jew, why did he sacrifice in the Temple in Jerusalem?

    If the letter was temporary, then Judaism was also temporary.

    Judaism as an entity has disappeared because without Temple as a means of staying Jewish, no Jews exist. If a Jew without Jewish identity accepts the sacrifice of Hebrews 10:1-23, he does so as a Gentile. Jeremiah 31:31 describes a covenant made with Israel and Judah. Since the ten tribes of Israel have been lost, it may be speaking of a future event, when the tribes return or it may be speaking of the House of God, made up of both Jew and Gentile. Jesus was sent only to the House of God, but He preached to the Samaritans and the Syro-Phoenician woman. Faith identifies the real children of God, the children of the Promise.

    After AD70, no Jews with Jewish identity exist.

    This was possible until AD70.


    But Israel was the vessel of wrath. God told them that the world would be blessed through Abraham’s seed, singular. If the contract mentioned “seeds”, they would have had a case, they would have been able to interpret it as “every Jew is entiled to being a righteous of his own”. A singular “seed”? Sorry, no cigar. Those who did not believe this technicality, insisted on their own interpretation, wouldn’t accept the righteousness sent by God, became vessels of wrath. They wanted to be the world’s rest, shelter, wanted the world to become Jews, but God wanted every believer to be: in Christ.

    If it walks like a duck…

    Jacob ran away, was never a ruler.

    Never took up ruling, so the elder never served the younger. The nation Edom however, did serve Israel.

    If Abraham had died after believing God would give him a son, he would have gone to heaven. That's what justified means, found righteous.

    Judas was baptised, as was Simon the sorcerer, but they were not clean.

    Acts 8:14Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then they beganlaying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. 18Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, 19saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22“Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. 23“For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.”

    ………..


    1 Timothy 5:17The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” 19Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. 20Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. 21I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. 22Do not lay hands upon anyone toohastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    If we obey God's commandments in the Old Testament (and the New) out of love for Him (1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10), then it is not the same thing as attempting to earn one's salvation through keeping the law (see Galatians 3:10-13, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).

    The law of God is written on the hearts and minds of New Covenant believers (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7), because we are saved by grace through faith; our hearts are regenerated and renewed in the Holy Ghost (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 5:5).

    To place one's self under law means that you have set up a set of do's and don'ts that you must follow in order to be a real Christian or be saved. Whether this is the Old Covenant law or "the law of Christ", if you think that you must obey a set of do's and don'ts in order to be saved (whether initially or ultimately), you have placed yourself under the law and are required to keep everything written in the Bible that is given as a requirement (Galatians 3:10-13, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).

    But if you are born again of the Holy Spirit, even forgiven through faith in the shed blood of Christ, then you are not under the law, are dead to the law, and are delivered from the law (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19, Romans 7:6); the law here meaning the effect of condemnation that comes from setting up a requirement by which you attempt to save yourself in the keeping of it.

    If you are forgiven through faith in Christ's shed blood, your obedience is not done as the result of fear (for perfect love casts out fear, 1 John 4:18) or out of an attempt to "ultimately" save yourself; rather it is the result of having a living faith in Jesus, which means you are regenerated and renewed, transformed (Titus 3:4-7, Romans 12:1-2) within yourself so that you are a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17): old things have passed away; behold, all things are become new!

    Being born again means that you have a new heart and a new spirit; and God will cause you to walk in His statutes and in His judgments (Ezekiel 36:25-27); because He has placed His love in your heart (Romans 5:5, Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19), which is a practical love (1 John 3:18) and a fulfilling of the law's righteousness within you (Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4). This is not a violation of free will; because in order to receive the love of God one must surrender to that love with a conscious decision to receive Christ into one's heart (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20, Colossians 1:27); at which time the will is altered by that love so that whereas before we were inclined towards sinful activities and found pleasure in them (see 2 Thessalonians 2:12), now we are inclined toward and find pleasure only in what is righteous (see Psalms 37:4, Jeremiah 17:9, Ezekiel 36:25-27, Luke 8:15, Acts of the Apostles 11:24, Galatians 5:22-23). At least this is my testimony.

    It is not a situation where the born again believer has to muster up the will to obey the Lord. The will to obey is placed within us when we are born again (Ezekiel 36:27, Philippians 2:13, Romans 5:5, 1 John 4:19, Luke 7:36-50).
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Concerning eternal security:

    It is the same people who are given the promises (such as John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, and Hebrews 13:5) that heed the warnings (such as Hebrews 3:12-15, Hebrews 6:1-8, and Hebrews 10:26-31).

    In other words, those who are truly born again are inclined to heed the warnings of scripture concerning falling away; and therefore they will not fall away: and therefore the promises concerning eternal security apply to them without reservation.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
  13. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others, so the Law was primarily given to us how to express God's character traits, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, and self-control. Pointing out our sin has significance only insofar as it leads us to repent and back to walking in God's ways. Simply pointing out our sin sells the Law far short of what God has planned for us because He is making us to be like Him and restoring us to His image. Jesus expressed the character traits of the Father through his actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, and our sanctification is about being made to be like him, to have and to express the same character traits.

    In regard to Galatians 3:24-25, have no more need for a tutor is not at all the same as having no more need to live by what they taught us. Someone who disregarded everything that their tutor taught them after they left would be be completely missing the whole point of a tutor. Now that Christ has come we have a superior teacher, but the subject matter is still how to walk in God's ways in obedience to His Law in accordance with what Christ taught by word and by example.

    In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that His Law was not too difficult for His people to obey and I believe Him, do you? In Galatians 3:21-22, the reason why righteousness doesn't come by the Law is not because no one can keep it, but because it was never given for that purpose in the first place. In regard to Galatians 6:13, Paul saying that circumcision group was not keeping the Law is not the same as saying that no one can keep it. In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, obedience to God's Law brings life and blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so being set free from the curse of the Law is being set free from living in disobedience to it so that we can enjoy the blessing of the Law.
     
  14. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    There is no law that will condemn us when we are bearing the fruit of the Spirit.

    Therefore, our focus as believers does not have to do with obeying a set of do's and don'ts; but rather our practical righteousness has to do with being connected to Jesus and drawing up nourishment from the vine so that we will bear good fruit.

    Our sanctification arises in that we behold the glory of the Lord and are transformed into the same image from glory to glory (2 Corinthians 3:18); not in that we have set before us a list of rules that we keep; and measure our righteousness by that. That is how we used to look at things before we came to Christ.

    Rather, we measure our righteousness by His character and nature; and in gazing on Him we become more and more like the object of our worship.

    We come from the standpoint that we are perfectly forgiven, and that when God looks at us He sees the perfect righteousness of His Son, that His blood that was shed on our behalf; which He also applied to us: and in understanding how God sees us it has the effect in my life of creating a behaviour in me that is in accordance with how He sees me.

    The love of God is shed abroad in my heart through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5). I love Him much because He has forgiven me much (Luke 7:36-50) and because He loved me first (1 John 4:19).
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    The effect of abiding in the vine properly is that the branch will bear good fruit. If it does not bear good fruit, but is still in the vine, then there is a problem happening concerning the movement of the sap/nourishment from the vine to the branch.

    So it is important that, as believers, we continue to cultivate our relationship with Christ, and foster a living faith in Jesus by staying in His word on a regular basis and not forsaking the assembly. Since these things are definitive of what it means to be a real Christian, I would say that anyone who is a Christian by this definition (who is not the member of a cult) is abiding in the vine and will produce much good fruit; but that those Christians who are not abiding in God's word and who are forsaking the assembly are the same ones who are having a problem with the conducting of the nourishment that rests in the vine unto themselves as being branches in the vine.

    John 15:2 does not necessarily mean that the branch that Jesus takes away was connected to the vine. In John 15:6 branches are taken away that are not connected to the vine.

    When a branch does not bear fruit, there is a problem with the connection; and that is the bottom line. A healthy branch is always the branch that is connected well; unhealthy branches are unhealthy because their connection is not so good.
     
  16. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    There is no law that will condemn us when we are bearing the fruit of the Spirit because the fruit of the Spirit is all in accordance with what the Law instructs. Jesus expressed the fruit of the Spirit through his actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law. The Law is not about a list of does and don't and certainly not about trying to measure our righteousness, but about teaching us how to express the fruits of the Spirit.
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    I find that John testified under inspiration of the Holy Spirit in John 5:17-18 that Jesus broke the sabbath. I know that this subject will produce a long argument however;...that has already been hashed out in two other threads. I will post those threads shortly so you can go to them and place your input, after reading all that has been said so far on the subject.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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  19. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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  20. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    As in the New Covenant, with regard to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29).

    The apostle Paul's thorn in the flesh (2 Corinthians 12:7-10) was not a sin, but a physical infirmity, possibly having to do with his eyes. Compare what Galatians 4:13-15 says. In Galatians 4:14 the original Greek word (G3986) translated as "temptation" does not have to mean temptation to sin, but can simply refer to when something comes to "try" (1 Peter 4:12) a person, in the sense of any "trial" or suffering of any kind (James 1:2-3; compare the idea of Romans 5:3). For while God never tempts people to commit sin (James 1:13-14), he can still try them in other ways (e.g. Genesis 22:1-19).

    Note that even a quadriplegic can do good works such as praying and the giving of alms, which are highly prized by God (Acts 10:4).

    Indeed, it means the opposite.

    A friend that still must serve by obeying (John 15:14).

    For we will never lose our status as servants (Revelation 22:3).

    What verse are you thinking of here, so we can look at that? Something in 2 Samuel 12?

    Also, note that an elect child's sin could be forgiven. For there are no children without any sin, due to original sin.

    Romans 5:19a is the doctrine of original sin, which could be based on everyone having been in some way in "the loins" of Adam when he sinned, so that everyone in some way committed sin when Adam sinned; just as Levi had been in some way in "the loins" of Abraham when Abraham gave a tithe to Melchisedec, so that Levi in some way gave a tithe to Melchisedec when Abraham did (Hebrews 7:9-10).

    Because of original sin, we are all guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived in the womb (Psalms 51:5). So even as babies, we are sinful (Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10). But original sin is not our only guiltiness before God. For we have all as individuals committed our own sins by our own free will (Romans 3:23,9-12). No one can master sin (Genesis 4:7b), or put to death the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:24), without the miraculous help of God's Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13b), who is given to Christians (1 Corinthians 2:12-16).

    If original sin is genetic, could it be passed on only through the male "seed", so that Jesus Christ could be conceived without original sin by being conceived without any human father (Luke 1:34-35)?

    He does not say that all can seek Him. For on our own, we would never seek God (Romans 3:11).

    God has to miraculously cause elect people to do that (John 6:44).

    Nonelect people can never do that, for they are not even the children of God (John 8:42-47).

    Acts 17:26's "one blood" would simply mean that nonelect individuals are no different genetically than elect individuals.

    God can command something so that sin by the commandment might become exceedingly sinful (Romans 7:13). God hardens nonelect individuals in their sin because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:18-22).

    John 12:32 means that all manner of people can believe in Jesus Christ and be saved (Revelation 5:9b), not absolutely all people (Romans 9:11-24), just as, for example, John 3:26c means that all manner of people came to Jesus during His first-coming earthly ministry, not absolutely all people. The original Greek word (G3956) translated as "all" can mean "all manner of" (e.g. Acts 10:12). It does not have to mean absolutely all.

    He gives the reason in 1 Corinthians 9:20.

    No, only Old Covenant Judaism (Hebrews 7:18-19).

    They do (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    No, the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is already fulfilled, even though the prior, Millennial prophecy of Jeremiah 31:1-14,16-25 (Jeremiah 31:15 was fulfilled in the first century AD: Matthew 2:17-18) and the other Millennial prophecies have not yet been fulfilled. For the making of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31,33) was fulfilled at Jesus Christ's Crucifixion (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17), just as the New Covenant being made with the houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31,33) has been fulfilled (Acts 2:5,36-41, Romans 11:1,17,24). And the New Covenant being not according to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32) has been fulfilled (Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17). And the New Covenant law of Jesus being written on the hearts of Jewish and Gentile Christians (Jeremiah 31:33) has been fulfilled (Romans 6:17, Ephesians 6:6, Galatians 6:2). And "they shall teach no more every man his neighbour" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:27). And "they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:13). And "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:12).

    Note that Jews include individuals from tribes of Israel other than Judah. For the apostle Paul is truly a Jew (Acts 22:3), and he is of the tribe of Benjamin (Romans 11:1). Indeed, Jews include individuals from all twelve of Israel's tribes. For there are no lost tribes, insofar as the ten northern tribes were not entirely lost to history. In 722 BC the northern kingdom of Israel fell, and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the ten northern tribes in themselves were not lost to history.

    For some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom of Israel, when it first become idolatrous, some individuals from all ten of the northern tribes left the northern kingdom to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so, by definition, they all became Jews. Also, some individuals from the ten northern tribes remained in the land of Israel even after its defeat by Assyria, and some of them went to Judah at the time of King Hezekiah (2 Chronicles 30). It is for these reasons that, later, the Jews who returned from the Babylonian Captivity could be referred to as "all Israel" (Ezra 2:70, Ezra 6:17, Ezra 8:25,35, Ezra 10:5, Nehemiah 7:73, Nehemiah 12:47), and why the Jews living in the first century AD could be referred to as including all twelve tribes (Acts 26:7, James 1:1, Acts 2:36,22,5), and why at that time Anna could be said to be of the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36), one of the so-called "lost" tribes.

    So the people alive today who are descended from a first century AD Jew would include individuals from all twelve tribes. Some of these descendants could know that they are Jews because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity, and did not intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles, because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years eventually abandoned their Jewish identity, and intermarried freely with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today are almost entirely Gentile genetically. Similarly, regarding the individuals of the northern kingdom of Israel who were lost to history at its captivity, over the past 2,700 years their descendants must have eventually abandoned their Israelite identity, and freely intermarried with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today would know themselves only as Gentiles, and would be almost entirely Gentile genetically.

    No, for there are plural vessels of wrath (Romans 9:22), who are all the nonelect individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-22).

    Note that all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire Church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the Church (Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the Church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7-8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus Christ is (Galatians 3:16,29). So both Jewish and Gentile Christians are heirs of all of the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

    He was a (de jure) ruler once he got the birthright.
    It ultimately requires works (James 2:24).

    They were clean after they got baptized (Acts 22:16), if not subsequently due to post-baptism sins.

    For even though Judas the apostle was chosen/elect/saved/empowered like the other apostles (Luke 6:13-16, Mark 6:7-13, Matthew 19:28), he still subsequently became a devil (John 6:70-71) who would ultimately become unsaved (Mark 14:21), because he wrongly employed his free will to begin to love money more than Jesus Christ (John 12:3-6, Mark 14:3-11; cf. 1 Timothy 6:10, Matthew 6:24).
     
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