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Featured What is the Gospel?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Sticking to points relevant to my statement, I’ve never heard of an employment contract where the two parties agree to stay together through rich or poor(!), in sickness and in health. Or where the loving relationship requires commensurate payment from one party, designated as employer, to another party, designated as employee. In the New Covenant, there is no particular payment linbed to a particular task, unlike the Old, where physical blessings are linked to complete obedience to all commandments. Instead, being loyal, faithful to the bridegroom results in the spiritual blessing of receiving what was promised to Abraham.

    We must be careful in defining requirements. In a work contract the tasks are specific. In a loving relationship, the acts can be interpreted with liberty, but must reflect faithfulness. So ultimate salvation need not require acts which are visible, what the Old Covenant calls works of the Law. So if a believer wakes up and says to himself, “I must not do anything today that is sinful”, and if he died the next moment he would still be considered saved.
    We are discussing the fault of the guest which you claim to be was his lack of works. The lack of the wedding garments refers to the Gentile who, when examined, was found to be unaware of the gift of God in inviting him to the feast. He thought the feast was to celebrate his own righteousness for which he was invited. Not so, says the text, Gentiles were included in the ¨favour by loyalty¨ type salvation because God had caused, Judaism, to become a vessel of dishonor, leading to the wall which prevented Gentiles from being included, was itself being excluded from the people of God.

    So the fault of the Gentile was in continuing to be proud of the traditions and religion which he thought had earned him entry to the Feast.

    BTW, nothing in the people of God can show Judaism remains in the Church. There was no special requirements for any person, to say he was a male believer or a female believer, a master or a slave, a Jew or a Gentile, while the old Covenant did have these differentiators.

    The word Jew means “praiser of God”. Why did the Jew praise God?

    Because he was special, treated different by Heaven from any other person in the world who was not in the People of god:

    Unlike before, Gentiles were now with the Messiah, not alienated from the citizenship of the People of God and not strangers to the covenants of promise, having hope, and with God in the world.

    If you say the People of God consists of Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles, then what is the difference? Do the Christian Jews keep the Christian Gentiles from entering the Assembly?
    You seem to define good works as works which benefit others. Loyalty is much more comprehensive. A paralytic saying to himself to be good can also be considered loyal, and loyalty is sufficient to have God’s favor, which is sufficient for salvation.
    You seem to define good works as works which benefit others. Loyalty is much more comprehensive. A paralytic saying to himself to be good can also be considered loyal, and loyalty is sufficient to have God’s favor, which is sufficient for salvation.
    You seem to define good works as works which benefit others. Loyalty is much more comprehensive. A paralytic saying to himself to be good can also be considered loyal, and loyalty is sufficient to have God’s favor, which is sufficient for salvation.
    They claimed to be people who were following a God who was longsuffering, quick to forgive and ever compassionate. If you follow Marx, then you should not claim ownership to personal property. You should not just agree with his teachings, you should live them out.
    What Jesus was rebuking was the request from followers of a forgiving God to make them forgiving! The problem with forgiving is that it results in loss. The good news is that forgiving, making a sacrifice, in the New Covenant does not lead to loss:

    1 Corinthians 15:3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importancea : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas,b and then to the Twelve.
    You are the first person I know who thinks that God needs anything. The disciple who forgives will have God bless his act and this is how he becomes a blessing to the world, while receiving treasure which does not perish for doing it.

    John 12:32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
    Luke 17:10So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"

    This means the work they do is not entitled to wages. The result of the work benefits their own storehouse, account.

    Confirming the idea that minors can not be held responsible for what their immaturity led them to do. The secular courts make allowance for immaturity, the Bible makes allowance for the same, but your theology is less gracious and merciful? Not to ignore, less knowledgeable about the science of how the human mind develops?

    The Bible is the raw material. Doctrines are interpretations of Scripture for the purpose of obedience. Suppose a person in the church says something which needs critiquing and agreement or disagreement with for the purpose of a proper response. You wouldn’t do it to a minor, because he is not mentally mature (does not possess a physiological development) and is not responsible for things he says or does. Please think things through instead of letting yourself dependent on spoonfeeding from the pastor:

    John 9:21But we do not know how he is now able to see, nor do we know who caused him to see. Ask him, he is a mature adult. He will speak for himself."
    Did your pastor teach you that? At least the RCC is more creative in making up explanations:

    Quote
    Augustine’s association with Neoplatonic philosophers led him to introduce their outlook within the church. This had its effect in the development of doctrine. For example, Jesus was considered immaculately conceived—without sin in that His Father was God. But because His mother, Mary, had a human father, she suffered the effect of original sin. In order to present Jesus Christ as a perfect offspring without any inherited sin from either parent, the church had to find a way to label Mary as sinless. They did this by devising the doctrine of her immaculate conception, though this inevitably leads to further questions.


    http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=227
    Romans 9 deals with nations. At no point did Esau serve Jacob, but Edom did serve Israel. Jews who insisted on preserving Judaism, a group, who called non observant Jews sinners, unclean, not Jews, were made a vessel of dishonor, were cut off.

    Romasns 3 teaches that Gentiles were included in the ¨favour by loyalty¨ type salvation because God had caused those who valued Judaism, its righteousness, to become a vessel of dishonor, had cut it off, removing a barrier that blocked Gentiles, so it was a free gift for them, not earned by following the requirements, works, of their religion. Not one gave righteousness, neither Jew or Gentile religions.
    Having your angels facing God means you are justified. Having the Kingdom of God belonging to you means you are justified. Children are better off than you. You are not even in the kingdom. You can’t even see the kingdom. You don’t even know what the Kingdom is.
    I thought you said the father must be obedient. You seemed to have corrected your vague statement. Anyway, where Law does not exist, as in the minds of the incapable, minors, the insane, etc, transgression does not occur.[/quote]
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
  2. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    The light is the announcement that you can lay down your life for your brother and not suffer loss if you are IN Christ because God will do great works which draw all men to Him, so becoming a blessing and earning treasure that is permanent. However, people love the darkness, enjoying the gains of serving selfish interest unrighteously, treasures of this world which do not last.
    God said Adam would die as soon as he gained knowledge of good and evil, received a mature mind, became responsible for his actions. He did die, was separated from God. When you are responsible, you can be declared guilty, impure and the impure cannot be in unity with God. Adam did not receive mortal death, but he died, could not be a blessing to the world, as soon as he matured.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
  3. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Having your angels facing God means you are justified. Having the Kingdom of God belonging to you means you are justified.
    Jesus was not separated from God. He wanted the disciples to have the same unity with God that He Himself had:

    John 17:20“I am not praying only on their behalf, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their testimony, 21that they will all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they will be in us, so that the world will believe that you sent me
    .
    All Judaism is cut off in the house of God, no more national barrier exists which prevents anyone from entering the People of God. If you say there is Judaism in the Household of God, what are they excluding, what wall are they building and which nationality is barred from entering? Jews allowed only Jews into the Household of God, so you must become a Jew to enter. What are the Jews in the New Covenant, if there are any, a wall against?

    Bread is for the children. Only when the children refuse to eat will the Father go to the highway and the byways to call those who are not family.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
  4. Wordkeeper

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    BTW, for the sake of consistency, so that you don’t keep shifting the goal posts, if Abraham’s children consist of Jews and Gentiles in the Old Covenant, are they called Old Covenant Jews?
    Romans 9:32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but (as if it were possible) by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33just as it is written,

    “Look, I am laying in Zion a stone that will cause people to stumble

    and a rock that will make them fall,

    yet the one who believes in him will not be put to shame.”


    Duh! Everyone knows that the Rock is Christ.
    Acts 13:26-41:26Brothers, descendants of Abraham’s family, and those Gentiles among you who fear God, the message of this salvation has been sent to us. 27For the people who live in Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize him, and they fulfilled the sayings of the prophets that are read every Sabbath by condemning him. 28Though they found no basis for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29When they had accomplished everything that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and placed him in a tomb. 30But God raised him from the dead,31and for many days he appeared to those who had accompanied him from Galilee to Jerusalem. These are now his witnesses to the people. 32And we proclaim to you the good news about the promise to our ancestors, 33that this promise God has fulfilled to us, their children, by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second psalm, ‘You are my Son; today I have fathered you.’ 34But regarding the fact that he has raised Jesus from the dead, never again to be in a state of decay, God has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and trustworthy promises made to David.’ 35Therefore he also says in another psalm, ‘You will not permit your Holy One to experience decay.’ 36For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, 37but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay. 38Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through this one forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39and by this one everyone who believes is justified from everything from which the law of Moses could not justify you. 40Watch out, then, that what is spoken about by the prophets does not happen to you:

    41‘Look, you scoffers; be amazed and perish!

    For I am doing a work in your days,

    a work you would never believe, even if someone tells you.’”[/quote]

    Sorry, no mention of your fictional New Covenant Jew.
    Because its too farfetched, has no basis for it, to even be called fiction! And since it meant nothing but a label, Paul had no fear of switching to either whenever he felt like it (BTW, what are the requirements of a New Covenant Jew? How is it different from a modern Hindu?:

    Romans 14:13Therefore we must not pass judgment on one another, but rather determine never to place an obstacle or a trap before a brother or sister. 14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean in itself; still, it is unclean to the one who considers it unclean.
    Whats the difference between a New Covenant Jew and a New Covenant Christian?
    Whats the differnce between a New Covenant Jew and a New Covenant Christian?
    Maybe when the House of Israel has land and a leader.
    If Judaism exists in the New Covenant, then a wall exists:

    Ephesians 2:14For he is our peace, the one who made both groups into one and who destroyed the middle wall of partition, the hostility,
    If they are the same, why call it Judaism?
    What power do we have to call ourselves Jews?
    Did God make the Covenant with Jeroboam and Rehoboam or their descendants who represent the Kings of Israel and Judah?

    Psalms 89:3You said, “I have made a covenant with my chosen one,
    I have sworn to David my servant,
    4‘I will establish your line forever
    and make your throne firm through all generations.
    Wrong. This is how baptism occurs:

    A person rejects being in the old man, humanity, feels like it is foreign to how he was created, gives up hope, dependence on it, the way of doing selfish work for treasure that does not last, when he sees God’s great works which show He can pay treasure that lasts, in return for laboring at good works, being loyal.

    On hearing the confession of the switch in loyalty from serving self for treasure which does not last to serving God with good works for that lasts, a clean believer, who has drank from the Rock, has bathed, can baptise the candidate. Judas drank, because Christ spoke the words that cleansed, but he did not own those words, so was not clean. If the church understands baptism, it would not allow someone who has not bathed to feed God’s sheep.

    The water signifies the recognition of the confession, the acceptance of the cutting off of the ties of loyalty to Egypt, just as the Red Sea closed behind Israel:

    Deuteronomy 17:16Moreover, he must not accumulate horses for himself or allow the people to return to Egypt to do so, for the LORD has said you must never again return that way.
    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Actually it isn't; and I have shown the reasoning as to why it isn't rather clearly.

    When I am changed from a pig or dog to a sheep, I no longer find pleasure in returning to my vomit or wallowing in the mud. And since satan is a created being and not God, he doesn't have the power to reverse the transformation so that I would be turned back into a dog or a pig. It is not that my will is negated; for in being born again I must surrender my will and a part of it is in asking the Lord to transform my will so that what I desire is now different than what I used to desire. My will is not negated but changed. What I choose to do will be different now that I will to do what is right rather than what is evil. Because you are assuming that a man's will can only be towards doing what is evil; but a man's will can be transformed so that it is now towards doing what is right (Luke 8:15)

    Actually it isn't. For Hebrews 5:9 can be interpreted to mean that those who have a living faith in Christ will obey Him; not necessarily that they must obey Him in order to have a living faith in Christ, or in order to be saved. I will again place the reasoning a third time below (in post #326) as concerning why ultimate salvation does not require works.

    So go ahead and cut Romans 4:4 out of your Bible; because what you said no to is based on that scripture, and is in fact almost a direct quote coming from it.
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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  8. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that Christians do not become the employees of Jesus Christ, but must become His willing servants/slaves (doulos: G1401) (Revelation 1:1), forsaking everything that they have (Luke 14:33).

    Ultimate salvation requires obedience to Jesus (Hebrews 5:9), just as even Abraham was ultimately justified by works (James 2:24).

    Jesus gives to every Christian a specific task (Mark 13:34).

    Also, the talents parable (Matthew 25:14-30) is about the judgment of Christians (of all times) by their individual works, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 25:19-30, Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48), which Jesus had just finished saying will not occur until "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So Matthew 25:21,23 refers to obedient Christians entering the joy of ruling on the earth with the Lord Jesus during the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), which will not begin until after the Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Matthew 25:30 refers to disobedient Christians losing their salvation at Jesus' Second Coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Luke 12:45-46), and them entering "the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 1:13), "to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever" (2 Peter 2:17), which could be a fate of them having to drift through, or stay in some place, in the darkness of outer space.

    The Church practices New Covenant Judaism (Jeremiah 31:31, Hebrews 12:24).

    The Bible says that (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    Their genetic descent (Romans 9:3-5).

    Of course (Titus 3:8,14).

    No, doing the will of God is also required for ultimate salvation (Matthew 7:21).

    Not at all, but only gain, as one loses the dark weights of bitterness and resentment upon one's soul, and opens oneself up to forgiveness from God for one's own sins (Mark 11:26).

    Note that it was not said that God "needs" anything, but that He "benefits" from our personal labor for His Kingdom (Matthew 25:20-21).

    John 12:32 means that all manner of people can believe in Jesus Christ and be saved (Revelation 5:9b), not absolutely all people (Romans 9:11-24), just as, for example, John 3:26c means that all manner of people came to Jesus during His first-coming earthly ministry, not absolutely all people. The original Greek word (G3956) translated as "all" can mean "all manner of" (e.g. Acts 10:12). It does not have to mean absolutely all.

    John 12:32 does not mean that everyone can believe in Jesus, for other verses show that some people (the nonelect) can never believe in Him (John 6:65, John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42).

    Also, John 12:32 does not mean that everyone will be saved, for other verses show that most people will never be saved (Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42, Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

    Also, John 12:32 does not mean that God originally intended to save everyone. For before the foundation of the world, He intended to save only the elect, the chosen (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13b, Acts 13:48b).

    Minors are even born mortal because of original sin (Romans 5:19,12, Romans 6:23).

    Note that even a child can have spiritual understanding from the Bible (2 Timothy 3:15, Luke 2:42-49).

    No, it deals only with individuals (Romans 9:11-24), whether Jews or Gentiles (Romans 9:24), such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-22).

    He did (de jure) as soon as he sold his birthright (Hebrews 12:16-17).

    Based on what?

    For note that we are all guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived in the womb (Psalms 51:5), because of Romans 5:19a.

    And we can only be justified by faith (Romans 1:17), and ultimately only by faith and works (Romans 2:6-8).

    Presently, the Kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the Kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then forever on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-8), as in a new surface for the earth.

    Jesus Christ's Kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at His future, Second Coming, He will sit on the earthly throne of King David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in His humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' Second Coming, He will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And He will bring salvation to all of the still-living, non-Christian elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, non-Christian elect Jews) will become Christians when they see Jesus at His Second Coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the Church at that time. For there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    After Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected Church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the Church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

    Mortality reigns over them (Romans 5:13-14), because of original sin (Romans 5:19,12).
     
  9. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    He died because of sin (Romans 6:23), which in his case was disobedience to God's command in Genesis 2:17a. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft (1 Samuel 15:23).

    *******

    Not New Covenant/New Testament Judaism (Matthew 26:28, Jeremiah 31:31).

    No nationality is barred (Revelation 5:9b).

    But all nonelect individuals, of whatever nationality, are barred because they can never come into faith in Jesus Christ (John 8:42-47, John 14:6).

    All those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have been made spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    *******

    Note that some Gentiles were circumcised by Abraham in Genesis 17:12,13,27. And Gentiles could become Old Covenant Jews according to Exodus 12:48-49.

    Acts 13:26-41 was referenced to show that Paul told the Old Covenant Jew that he [Paul] was a New Covenant Jew.

    New Covenant Jews, such as Paul (Acts 22:3), no longer follow the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Hebrews 7:18-19).

    To follow the New Covenant commands of Jesus Christ (John 15:10).

    The same way that it is different from a Buddhist or a Gnostic.

    For regarding Gnosticism, it is an ancient religious movement which says that everything material is inherently evil, while only that which is purely spirit can be good. Gnosticism teaches that all humans used to be purely spirit and dwelling in bliss from all eternity in a purely-spiritual heaven called the "Pleroma", until by some mishap humanity fell into the material universe and became trapped within fleshly bodies. Gnosticism reviles YHWH, the God of Biblical Christians, and the Creator of the material universe and of all fleshly bodies, as an evil, subordinate deity, a "Demiurge", who is keeping humans imprisoned and suffering within fleshly bodies and in the material universe.

    Gnosticism became one of the main enemies of the early Church, and it will become the greatest enemy of the Church during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the future Antichrist will be a Gnostic. He will teach the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh (1 John 4:3). And the Antichrist, like the Gnostics, will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will instead bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 12:9).

    -

    Gnosticism has some core teachings in common with Buddhism and Hinduism:

    1. The material realm is unreal and evil. (Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Maya", from Hinduism.)

    2. People must strive to escape the material realm completely and enter a state which is wholly non-physical (Parinirvana in Buddhism, the Pleroma in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Brahman", from Hinduism.

    3. The way for people to get free from their imprisonment within the material realm is through their minds attaining a certain level of enlightenment (Nirvana in Buddhism, Gnosis in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Moksha", from Hinduism.

    4. The way for their minds to attain this certain level of enlightenment is through following the way of the Serpent (one legend of Buddhism says that the Buddha was given the true Buddhism by the King of the Serpents; and in Gnosticism, Gnosis comes from the Christ/the Serpent). Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea of the enlightening serpent, originally called "Kundalini", from Hinduism. (Regarding the serpent in Genesis 3, Gnostics see him as the good guy, while they see YHWH as the bad guy.)

    The Bible contradicts each of the four points above:

    1. The material realm is real, and was created by YHWH God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). God Himself is in the flesh (John 1:1,14, Luke 24:39) and He remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). So there is nothing evil about matter in itself.

    2. People must strive to attain to a resurrection (Philippians 3:11) into an immortal human body of flesh and bones like the immortal human body of flesh and bones which Jesus Christ obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25), and in which He will remain forever as Christians' fully-human mediator/high priest (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 2:16-17, Hebrews 7:24-26). His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and at His Second Coming He will show the scars of the Crucifixion on His body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

    3. Resurrected people who have been truly enlightened/illuminated (Ephesians 1:18, Hebrews 10:32) by Jesus Christ (John 14:6-7, John 8:32, John 3:36) will remain in the material realm (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), ultimately living with God on a New Earth, in the sense of a new surface for the earth (Revelation 21:1-4).

    4. The Serpent, Satan/Lucifer, is the deceiver of the whole world (Revelation 12:9).

    That is not contradicting that there are unclean actions (Galatians 5:19-21), but means that there are no longer unclean foods, as was the case under the Old Covenant (Leviticus 11).

    Nothing, unless the former is also a genetic Jew (Romans 9:3-5), and the latter is also a genetic Gentile (Romans 16:4b).

    No, already. For 1 Peter 2:9-10, for example, is referring to the Church as Israel. For it is quoting from Exodus 19:5b-6 and Hosea 2:23, which refer to Israel.

    No, for in Ephesians 2:14-15 the wall of "enmity" which has been abolished included the "unclean"-Gentile concept of the Old Covenant (Ezra 9:11-14), which was removed under the New Covenant (Acts 10:28) on the Cross of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:11-19).

    Because the New Covenant is made only with Jews (Jeremiah 31:31).

    The power of water-immersion (burial) baptism/circumcision into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    The New Covenant -- made only with the houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31, Acts 2:36) -- was not made until the Cross (Matthew 26:28).

    That is not the New Covenant, but the Davidic Covenant.

    Similarly, 1 Chronicles 17:11-12 is not a dual-fulfillment prophecy, because it was not fulfilled by Solomon. For Solomon's throne was not established forever. He died, and his dynasty died out as well. Jesus Christ is not going to sit on Solomon's throne, but on David's throne (Luke 1:32). Nor is Jesus the son of Solomon, but the son of David (Matthew 1:1), through David's son Nathan (Luke 3:31b), not David's son Solomon, whose kingly line became cursed so that no descendant of Jehoiachin (a descendant of Solomon) can ever sit on David's throne (Jeremiah 22:30).

    Jesus Christ will fulfill 1 Chronicles 17:12 physically after His future, Second Coming, that is, during the future Millennium, when He will build a literal temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 6:12-13, Zechariah 14:20-21), and literally sit on David's throne, and rule as King forever (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7). Because the Millennium will not be forever, David's throne will continue on the New Earth (of Revelation 21:1), as in a new surface for the earth.

    -

    Also, Mary conceived Jesus Christ solely by God's Holy Spirit, before she had had any sexual relations with Joseph (Matthew 1:18), or with any other man for that matter (Luke 1:34-35). This is why Jesus is the only begotten (only born) Son of God (John 3:16, Luke 1:34-35), meaning that He is the only person ever born without any human father. But He is still also the Son of David (Matthew 21:9), in the sense of His being that physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3) who is the foretold Messiah/Christ (John 7:42). So Mary must have been descended from David, or else Jesus would have had no physical descent from David. Because the genealogies in Matthew and Luke are different, one passing through David's son Solomon (Matthew 1:6) and the other through David's son Nathan (Luke 3:31), the latter genealogy can be Mary's. In this case, Joseph, the husband of Mary can be the son of Heli (Luke 3:23) in the sense of his being his son-in-law, like how, for example, David was the son of Saul (1 Samuel 24:11,16) in the sense of his being his son-in-law (1 Samuel 18:23,27c).
     
  10. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that no reasoning can contradict James 2:24.

    Note that 2 Peter 2:20-22 refers to Christians who had truly escaped the pollutions of the world (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:4b); they had truly been washed (2 Peter 2:22b, cf. 1 Corinthians 6:11, Hebrews 10:22) through knowing Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:3b, John 17:3,17). But they nonetheless at some subsequent point wrongly employed their free will to return back to sinning without repentance, so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20b-21, cf. Hebrews 10:26-29).

    But not necessarily for the rest of their lives, unto ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8).

    For note that Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that Christians are robots. For if Christians cannot choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who does not persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

    But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if, after he became a Christian, he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6), and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey Him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a Christian fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin seventy-times-seven times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin, and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

    Yes to both (James 2:26, Matthew 7:21).

    For John 15:2a refers to Christians, who are branches in the vine of Jesus Christ, wrongly employing their free will in such a way that they fail to produce good fruit, so that ultimately they are taken away from Jesus (John 15:2a), cut off from Him for their unrepentant laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

    Christians can also be ultimately cut off from Jesus Christ, cast away, and burned; they can ultimately lose their salvation, for not continuing to abide in Jesus (John 15:6), in the sense of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:12b), or unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

    There is no need to. For it stands true in light of the fact that a master does not go into debt to his servant (Luke 17:10).

    *******

    They are true with regard to initial salvation.

    Only your ultimate salvation, which also requires faith (James 2:24).

    It doesn't have to, when it is put together with other verses elsewhere (Isaiah 28:9-10).

    No, it cannot be including ultimate salvation, because ultimate salvation is of works (Matthew 7:21).
     
  11. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Your posts are becoming incoherent. How can there be genetic Jews and genetic gentiles when Jews can be genetic gentiles who have converted? In other words, a category called genetic Jews can't exist, because Jews themselves are a category that consists of genetic Jews and genetic gentiles.

    So many other incoherencies. How can something be both unreal and evil? Unreal means non existent. How can a non existent entity be evil?
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    James 2:24 is speaking of justification before man (compare to Romans 4:2). For man looks on the outward appearance; but God looks on the heart (1 Samuel 16:7). Before the Lord, a man is justified by faith alone (Romans 4:1-8). Before men, we determine that a man is saved (we declare him righteous, or justify him) by looking at the works that he does. Now man can be mistaken, but God can never be mistaken.

    Yes, but this is ultimately speaking of dogs or pigs who were taken from the pigpen or their vomit and cleaned up and put in the palace. They return to the pollutions of this world because they were never made into new creatures; they are still dogs or pigs and were never made into sheep.

    Which is changing the subject. The original subject was that salvation is not of works; and that Hebrews 5:9 does not substantiate that ultimate salvation is. Because Hebrews 5:9 can be interpreted to mean that those who are redeemed will obey God because they are new creatures in Christ, and not necessarily that they must obey God in order to continue to be new creatures. A sheep is a sheep no matter what its behaviour is; but sheep by nature have a certain kind of behaviour.

    It does not require that Christians are robots. It allows for the fact that they are made new creatures in Christ. They are not dogs (and so will not return to their vomit) and they are not pigs (and so will not return to their wallowing in the mire). They are sheep (and therefore they abhor vomit and mud).

    A believer who is one of the elect can know that he is saved (1 John 5:13) and that this means he cannot but enter into heaven (even in light of your argument); because he is sealed by the Holy Spirit; who is the earnest of his inheritance.

    But in your doctrine, a believer who knows that he is presently saved does not know if he is going to heaven. Because if he fails to do some good work, or sins and fails to repent, if he becomes utterly lazy without repentance, or if he commits apostasy, his security of a future promise of entering into heaven is taken away; because in your view there is no guarantee that he will not do any of those things. In my view there is a guarantee (John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5). If you want to go to the trouble of attempting to say why these verses do not give eternal security to the believer, by all means do so; I don't believe a word of it: because I have received these verses as promises from the most High (2 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 11:33, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Romans 4:20-22). And the guarantee of these verses means that anyone who is of God's elect will never become utterly lazy without repentance or commit apostasy; and also because he is a new creature in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will bring it to his attention when he has sinned and he will also bring him to repentance; it cannot be otherwise, unless he is simply covered by the blood of Christ and therefore repenting is something that restores relationship but that the sin in need of repentance did nothing to change his position as saved/born again.

    And ultimate salvation; according to the whole of my argument.

    Again, James 2:24 doesn't teach that ultimate salvation is of works. It teaches that justification before man is of works (compare Romans 4:2). And you have also not answered the whole of the argument.
    You have misinterpreted how those other verses apply.

    Actually, Matthew 7:21 teaches that those who are genuinely saved will do the will of the Father, and that doing the will of the Father is the evidence that someone is genuinely saved (not that doing the will of the Father is required for ultimate salvation necessarily; for if it is required by this verse, the statement is qualified by the fact that anyone who is truly one of Jesus' sheep will do the will of the Father because he is a new creation in Christ: and therefore the root and epitome of ultimate salvation is in the transformation, regeneration, and renewal that has taken place) when you take into account other verses (such as Ephesians 2:8-10 and Titus 3:4-8).
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
  13. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Try to answer the whole of the argument this time.

    Hint: first quote the whole post, and then give the whole of your response immediately afterward, instead of trying to split everything up. <edit>

    Don't be acting like him now in thinking you can refute the argument by cutting it in pieces. It will not be refuted unless it is refuted as a whole. Think of the whole statement as being a single word and try to refute the word without taking it apart by the letters.

    [---quote]Ephesians 2:8-9 says: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Now if we are ultimately saved by works then these verses do not stand true because we would be saved by works. And the verse says clearly that we are saved by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

    If I am ultimately saved by works then my salvation is of works: but the passage in question says that salvation is not of works. It does not specify "initial salvation" and so it must be including ultimate salvation in saying that salvation is not of works. If it specified "initial salvation" then I can see where ultimate salvation might not be included when the verse says salvation is not of works. But because initial salvation isn't specified, and ultimate salvation is not excluded by such a specification, understand that ultimate salvation is included in the statement that salvation is not of works. Therefore ultimate salvation, also, is not of works.[---/quote]
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
  14. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    They would be religious Jews (Romans 2:17, Romans 11:13), but not genetic Jews (Romans 9:3-5), who are descended from Jacob, and are not necessarily religious.

    Like a sexual fantasy.

    Or something that exists only in one's mind, and not out in the real world.
     
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    No, for the issue in James 2:14-24 is how Christians are to be saved from hell (James 2:14b), how they are to be justified before God (James 2:23-24), just as the issue in Romans 4:1-5 is how Christians are to be saved from hell, how they are to be justified before God (cf. Romans 5:9, Romans 1:16). That is why both James 2:23-24 and Romans 4:1-5 employ the same Old Testament verse (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, James 2:23). Romans 4:1-5 refers to initial salvation/justification before God, which is based on faith without any works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), while James 2:23-24 refers to ultimate salvation/justification before God, which is based on both faith and works (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law).

    For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That is why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

    The breathing analogy (James 2:26) does not include the automatic aspect of breathing. For Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible do not include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, Christians, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2), does not mean that Christians have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.

    Initially, but not ultimately (Matthew 7:21).

    Nothing requires that.

    For a Christian becoming a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17) does not take away his free will. It does not turn him into a robot. So it is possible for him to wrongly employ his free will to the ultimate loss of his salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

    For example, Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that Christians, who have been sanctified by Jesus Christ's sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these Christians are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and His sacrificial blood, and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of Christians which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood does not remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

    Some Christians say that Hebrews 10:26-29 is not for Christians. But the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" Christians. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Christians need to gather together and exhort each other so that no Christian will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

    One way that a Christian could come to desire to commit a sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures Christians that there is no way that they can ever lose their salvation, even if they commit a sin without repentance.

    Regarding "the earnest of his inheritance", Ephesians 1:13-14, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

    But someone might ask: "Would not Christians losing their salvation require that the Holy Spirit be cast away to suffer in hell?"

    The answer is No, the Holy Spirit will never be cast away, for He is God. God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4) is one God with God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1:8, John 20:31). For the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:19-20 and Mark 13:11) and the Spirit of the Son (John 14:16-18, Romans 8:9). Also, the Holy Spirit is already in hell, just as He is in heaven and everywhere else at the same time. For He is omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-8). And He can be in hell without suffering from it, just as God could cause even some righteous men who were cast into a fiery furnace on the earth not to suffer from it (Daniel 3:23-27).

    Regarding your reference to John 5:24, it refers to salvation in the sense of Christians' present, spiritual salvation, instead of the still-future, ultimate redemption of their physical bodies (Romans 8:23-25). John 5:24 means that a Christian will not ultimately come into condemnation, as in an ultimate loss of salvation, so long as he continues to the end to believe (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23, John 15:6), to perform good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, John 15:2a), and to repent from every sin that he commits (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). All Christians will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10).

    Some Christians, at the judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at His future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

    Regarding your reference to John 6:47, compare the similar John 3:16, which is sometimes translated as: "whoever believes in him shall not perish". But this is a mistranslation of the original Greek, in which the verb is in the subjunctive mood. This means that it is referring to a conditional action. So it should be translated as: "may not perish". Other, related verses show that Christians ultimately retaining their salvation is conditional on their continued belief to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 6:4-8, Colossians 1:23), their continued good works to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30), and their continued repentance to the end from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). And none of these things are assured, because of free will.

    The way to do Christian theology is not to base it on what an unqualified (in the sense of an unconditioned) verse says to Christians, but on what the entire Bible says to Christians (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4). A verse applicable to Christians in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by, conditioned by) other, related verses (also applicable to Christians) elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding your reference to John 10:27-30, verses 28-29 mean that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

    Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

    Regarding your reference to Hebrews 13:5, the latter part applies to Christians only if they remain faithful to Jesus Christ. For "if we deny him, he also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12b).

    No, it isn't.

    For Matthew 25:26,30, for example, shows that even someone who was a servant of Jesus Christ can ultimately lose his salvation because of unrepentant laziness. One way that a Christian could desire to become lazy without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term), that he continues in it over time until his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12). Love for God means choosing to do what God says to do (1 John 5:3). So if one's love for God grows cold (Matthew 24:12), one will no longer choose to do what God says to do (John 14:24), meaning that one will become lazy in God's eyes (Matthew 25:26,30).

    Regarding apostasy, again there is no guarantee against it.

    For Hebrews 6:4-8, for example, shows that Christians, who have repented and become partakers of God's Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other Bible verses show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

    One way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the Christian faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they are no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

    Another way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense (2 Thessalonians 2:3) during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the future Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), and worshipping the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if he had been a Christian before, will end up suffering punishment from God in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do any of these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

    This ties in with the fact that a Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life, if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of Christians ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528), or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2), is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

    No, it doesn't. Otherwise, they would have no free will, and would never sin.

    Instead, Matthew 7:21-23 shows that both faith and obedience to God are required for Christians to enter ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24). But there is no assurance that Christians will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).

    *******

    The verses do stand true, because they refer to initial salvation.

    It doesn't have to, just as Romans 2:6-8 does not have to specify "ultimate salvation".

    That is, the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" for them to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" for them to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

    For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

    Also, in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +571
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    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    Getting closer; but not there yet.

    Do you even realize that you are opposing yourself here? For I can say to you that there is no guarantee that you will even go to heaven because your ultimate salvation is all dependent on you. Argue as you might, you will have to realize sooner or later that you can't measure up; not even "in the power of the Holy Spirit" because I'm willing to guess that you don't have a living relationship with Him. You can wrongly employ your own free will to the ultimate loss of your salvation. That preaching is with much assurance, my brother! If you have a kjv you should look up 1 Thessalonians 1:5 in it because it shows that your model of salvation is faulty.

    I dare you to pray the prayer of repentance in Psalms 51 with that in mind.
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    I have a question for you...do you type out all of your stuff by hand or do you have all of these answers in a document and you copy and paste them as you see fit?

    Because I could just have some fun with you because to a certain extent we are going in circles; and I can make you work your butt off replying to me as I simply say the same old things which take less time for me because my answers are shorter; and laugh my head off at seeing the same old answers that have been answered well quite a few times already.

    You are a real workhorse my friend! I'm sure that when you get to heaven you will want to boast about all the hard work you did to ultimately get there. I know that I would if I were in your shoes. I would want some kind of reward; for people to recognize me for all the hard work I did.

    But from my real perspective, it seems like we are getting nowhere and I am only helping you to brainwash yourself even more as you type out the same old arguments and ingraining their false doctrine into your subconscious mind.

    So I'm out. I may check back from time to time; I may even post if I think it to be necessary: but this discussion is very evidently fruitless.

    Because you never did answer the argument that I put to you somewhere above that I asked you to answer as a whole. Therefore until you answer it the way that I have asked you to, I will discuss doctrine with you no further. For obedience to Romans 16:17 is in my mind but I am having a hard time getting away from you.
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +571
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    Here, I'll help you: now don't forget my request that you answer it as a whole.

    [~QUOTE="justbyfaith, post: 73106016, member: 398457"]Ephesians 2:8-9 says: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Now if we are ultimately saved by works then these verses do not stand true because we would be saved by works. And the verse says clearly that we are saved by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

    If I am ultimately saved by works then my salvation is of works: but the passage in question says that salvation is not of works. It does not specify "initial salvation" and so it must be including ultimate salvation in saying that salvation is not of works. If it specified "initial salvation" then I can see where ultimate salvation might not be included when the verse says salvation is not of works. But because initial salvation isn't specified, and ultimate salvation is not excluded by such a specification, understand that ultimate salvation is included in the statement that salvation is not of works. Therefore ultimate salvation, also, is not of works.[/QUOTE~]
     
  19. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +456
    Christian
    Married
    Still a category called genetic Jews, which you say are part of the New People of God, can't exist, because Jews themselves are a category that consists of genetic Jews and genetic gentiles. You've painted yourself into a corner with your idea that the Church is made up of genetic Jews and genetic Gentiles.
    I can read the Hindu scriptures in the original Sanskrit. Maya means illusion. It is an involuntary creation of the mind, so it can't be evil. Hinduism believes that the material world is imaginary, does not exist, not that it is evil. Sexual fantasies are results of bad thinking. The thinking is evil. As for kundalini, your views are wrong. Don't even go into that area of thinking, it's extremely dangerous.
    The thinking is evil. Thoughts don't exist so they can't have attributes.
     
  20. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +373
    Christian
    Private
    There is indeed no guarantee of ultimate salvation, because of free will.

    But ultimate salvation is in no way all dependent on Christians.

    For it is impossible for people to believe, or to continue to believe, all of the right things, apart from God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, Hebrews 12:2), and some measure of His Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Also, it is impossible for people to perform, or to continue to perform, all of the right actions as Christians, apart from God making it possible for Christians to do that (Philippians 2:12-13, John 15:4-5). And it is impossible for people to repent, if a sin is committed, apart from God making it possible to repent (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18, Romans 8:13). So even if Christians continue to believe, act, and repent as they ought to, they must stay so humble that they never give themselves any credit or glory (Luke 17:10, Galatians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 1:29,31). But when Jesus Christ judges the Church at His future, Second Coming, He will give obedient Christians some credit (Matthew 25:21). Also, God does glorify Christians (Romans 8:30).

    1 Thessalonians 1:5 refers to the assurance of initial salvation.

    For initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

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    The verses do stand true because they are about initial salvation.

    Note that it doesn't have to, just as Romans 2:6-8 doesn't have to specify "ultimate salvation".

    No, it isn't, because ultimate salvation is of works (Hebrews 5:9).
     
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