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Featured What is the Gospel?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Only the New Covenant law (Hebrews 7:18-19).

    Christians must obey Jesus' New Covenant law in order to be saved ultimately (Hebrews 5:9).

    It is only if Christians perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).

    There is no way that we can ever save ourselves (John 14:6). Indeed, we can't even do any good work apart from Jesus (John 15:5b).

    Note that a Christian becoming a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17) does not take away his free will. It does not turn him into a robot. So it is possible for him to wrongly employ his free will to the ultimate loss of his salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

    Note that in Ezekiel 36:27 the original Hebrew word (H6213) translated as "cause" can be translated as "grant" (Job 10:12), in the sense that if Christians choose to walk in God's Holy Spirit, He will grant them the ability not to fulfill the lust of the flesh (Galatians 5:16). But if Christians choose instead to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to commit sin without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Romans 8:13).

    But note that our love for Him can grow cold (Matthew 24:12).

    Not necessarily for the rest of our lives (2 Peter 2:20-22).

    Of course it is. For the born again believer has to "be careful to maintain good works" (Titus 3:8).

    But it doesn't necessarily continue for the rest of our lives (Matthew 25:26,30).

    For while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), He does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

    *******

    Note that the Bible does not teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people, that is, Christians, will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

    Also, even if Christians do continue in the faith, they will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience to God, and do good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

    Also, even if Christians do continue in faith and good works of faith, they will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

    Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

    Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of the bread and wine of Communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

    Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

    Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

    Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help other Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

    Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

    Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming God's Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance that Christians will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

    Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not remove words from the book of Revelation, and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). And there is no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

    Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not worship the future Antichrist, and his image, and do not willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). And there is no assurance that they will not choose to do these things (1 Timothy 4:1).

    Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

    Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

    All of this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in Christians, but the healthy fear which all Christians are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

    And all of this is said not to engender any despair in Christians, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus Christ Himself, which all Christians must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right things (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they cannot do anything good (John 15:4-5).

    Also, Jesus Christ is not a hard taskmaster. He will never give Christians more work to do for Him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if Christians ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back, and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work He is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).
     
  2. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Not necessarily for the rest of their lives.

    For regarding your reference to John 5:24, it refers to salvation in the sense of Christians' present, spiritual salvation, instead of the still-future, ultimate redemption of their physical bodies (Romans 8:23-25). John 5:24 means that a Christian will not ultimately come into condemnation, as in an ultimate loss of salvation, so long as he continues to the end to believe (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23, John 15:6), to perform good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, John 15:2a), and to repent from every sin that he commits (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). All Christians will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10).

    -

    Also, regarding your reference to John 6:47, compare the similar John 3:16, where a (sometimes-quoted) translation: "whoever believes in him shall not perish" is a mistranslation of the original Greek, in which the verb is in the subjunctive mood. This means that it is referring to a conditional action. So it should be translated as: "may not perish". Other, related verses show that Christians ultimately retaining their salvation is conditional on their continued belief to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 6:4-8, Colossians 1:23), their continued good works to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30), and their continued repentance to the end from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). And none of these things are assured, because of free will.

    The way to do Christian theology is not to base it on what an unqualified (in the sense of an unconditioned) verse says to Christians, but on what the entire Bible says to Christians (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4). A verse applicable to Christians in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by, conditioned by) other, related verses (also applicable to Christians) elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

    -

    Also, regarding your reference to John 10:27-30, verses 28-29 mean that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

    Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

    -

    Also, regarding your reference to Hebrews 13:5, the latter part applies to Christians only if they remain faithful to Jesus Christ. For "if we deny him, he also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12b).

    Note that Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that Christians are robots. For if Christians cannot choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who does not persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

    But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if, after he became a Christian, he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6), and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey Him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a Christian fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin seventy-times-seven times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin, and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

    *******

    Not necessarily for the rest of its life (Matthew 25:26,30).

    Or, the branch, a Christian, is not being careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8b).

    We also cultivate our relationship with Christ by doing good works (John 15:14, John 15:10).

    Of course it does, for the branch is "in" Christ (John 15:2a).

    They were connected to the vine before they were "cast forth" from the vine due to apostasy (John 15:6, Hebrews 6:4-8).

    No, for any gardener will tell you that a fully-connected branch can still fail to produce fruit.

    And with Christians, this is because they retain their free will even while being fully connected to Christ.

    OSAS has to negate free will.
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that Jesus Christ shows in the Sermon on the Mount how His New Covenant, Christian commandments are stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even calling people names (Matthew 5:22). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife is not a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

    Jesus Christ also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while His New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it is also more merciful. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43, Deuteronomy 23:6), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), while Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), while Jesus allowed His disciples to work on the sabbath, and said that they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus Himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

    So in obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29, John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 14:37), Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and also exceed in righteousness those who mistakenly try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).
     
  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    I will deal with one thing in particular right now, and that it the idea that eternal security turns Christians into robots or marionette puppets.

    It does not, in fact, do this. What it does is make the believer a new creature in Christ; for example, turning him from a dog or swine into a sheep.

    A dog returns to its vomit; and swine to its wallowing in the mud.

    A sheep has no desire for vomit or the mud.

    Put a sheep into mud and it will run to the water as soon as it can find some to be cleansed from the filth. Clean up a pig and put it in the palace and as soon as the door opens it will run out the door in order to find the mudpit so that it can wallow in it.

    When a person is born again, their nature is changed in this manner. Now that I am a sheep I have no desire for the old ways that used to give me pleasure; I don't want anything to do with the mud or any of my old vomit.

    So I am not a robot; but I am changed in my nature so that I don't want to do the things that I used to. I was once a dog or pig; now I am a sheep.

    See 2 Peter 2:20-22.

    Once someone has been transformed supernaturally into a sheep; nothing has the power to transform them back to a dog or swine. Satan is a created being and is not God. He doesn't have the power to change our nature back to what it once was. Only God has the power to change the nature of a person so that he is a different animal, so to speak.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    You are on a works trip, man.

    His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

    Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (ultimately). Romans 10:13.

    Your false doctrine causes me to have to put something in parentheses in order to clarify what it means; because you have added to that scripture so that what you believe puts something different in the parentheses.

    Now even if it only means initial salvation, initial salvation means that the person is transformed from a dog or pig into a sheep; and impaho this means that ultimate salvation is also secure.

    John 5:25 tells me that if I hear the words of Jesus and believe on Him who sent Him, I shall not come into condemnation.

    I take this as a promise of scripture (see 2 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 11:33, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Romans 4:20-22).

    Every Bible verse stands on its own as biblical truth. If there seems to be other verses that seem to contradict, one must meditate on the meanings of both to come to a conclusion as to what they mean together.

    For example, John 5:24 coupled with Hebrews 3:12-15 means that if I truly believe in Jesus I am not going to harden my heart against Him; I will not forsake the assembly and thus I will be exhorting my brethren and they will be exhorting me; and this will be a safeguard against departing from the living God because of an evil heart of unbelief. Also that faith in Jesus means that I do not have an evil heart of unbelief (notice the progression: Jeremiah 17:9, Ezekiel 36:25-27, Luke 8:15); for as long as I continue to have a living and abiding faith in Him (which 1 John 2:17 says is for ever).
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    A dog or a pig that dies has the eternal destination of hell. A sheep if it dies will go straight to heaven. Because the animal dog or pig represents the unbeliever; while a sheep represents a permanently transformed believer.
     
  7. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    When God says His grace is enough, it indicates that the standard for being justified, to be found righteous, be without thorns, has been set aside. If you go to a dinner in casual clothes because you did not know it was a black tie occasion and the host graciously welcomes you in… the requirement of the dinner was just set aside. If the Old Covenant could justify, make a person righteous enough to enter Rest, become a blessing to the world, then Christ died for nothing. Since the New Covenant, launched by the Cross, operated on grace, it could so justify.

    As noted, you have changed from lip service plus action, to just lip service, as the minimum requirement.

    The emphasis is on appropriate behaviour: servants cannot ask for more strength from the master. Not on indebtedness because of work done.

    Ah, the difference is in obligation. A friend shows friendliness, relationship,by helping out. Being quadriplegic excuses me. No such immunity for servants. A servant MUST work. The master MUST pay. This why loyalty is a better word than faith. Even just empathising with the master is good enough to enjoy grace.

    Grace in operation.

    Sure. 2 Samuel 12:22He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ 23“But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

    Quote
    Though Augustine was convinced by the arguments of his earlier patristic peers, he made use of the apostle Paul’s letters, especially the one to the Romans, to develop his own ideas on original sin and guilt. Today, however, it is accepted that Augustine, who had never mastered the Greek language, misread Paul in at least one instance by using an inadequate Latin translation of the Greek original.

    In Romans 5, Paul addresses the matter of sin. In verse 12 he states, “Therefore . . . sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned” (NRSV). Later in the chapter, Paul juxtaposes the sin of Adam with the righteousness of Christ: “Just as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous” (Romans 5:19). In contrast to his contemporary theologians, Augustine drew from his reading of these scriptures that sin was passed biologically from Adam to all his descendants through the sexual act itself, thus equating sexual desire with sin. But why should he have reached this interpretation when marital sexual relations in Jewish society at the time of Christ and Paul were considered honorable and good?


    http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx%3Fid%3D227

    .........

    Quote
    Augustine of Hippo (354-430) was a great thinker and church leader. As a young man he had left his Christian background and become a Manichaean, a follower of an anti-Christian dualistic religion; eventually he came back to the Christian faith. But he was not a great linguist. He could speak and understand well only his native Latin, not Greek. And so for his understanding of the Bible he had to rely on translations into Latin.

    Doug Chaplin has recently explained how in Romans 5:12

    Augustine took Paul’s phrase “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” following the Vulgate “in quo omnes peccaverunt” to be “in whom [Adam] all sinned”.

    (The Greek can be transliterated ef’ ho pantes hemarton.) Well, Augustine didn’t actually use the Vulgate, which was being translated during his lifetime, but the sometimes not very accurate Old Latin translations. But his Latin version seems to have been similar to the Vulgate here. Doug continues:

    the Augustinian interpretation of Paul’s “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” as meaning “in whom all sinned” makes it the most disastrous preposition in history. All modern translations agree that its proper meaning is “because.”

    More precisely, “the most disastrous preposition” is ἐφ᾽ ef’, a contracted form of epimeaning “on”. The Greek phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ef’ ho literally means “on which”, or possibly “on whom”, but is commonly used to mean “because”, or perhaps “in that”. The problem is that the Latin rendering of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ, in quo, is ambiguous between “in which” and “in whom” (I’m not sure if it can also mean simply “because” or “in that”), and Augustine understood it as meaning “in whom”, i.e. “in Adam”.

    So, according to Augustine all sinned “in Adam”, which he understood as meaning that because Adam sinned every other human being, each of his descendants, is counted as a sinner. This is his doctrine of “original sin”, that every human is born a sinner and deserves death because of it. He may have taken up this idea because it agreed with his former Manichaean theology. This teaching is fundamental to most Protestant as well as Roman Catholic teaching today. For example, it underlies the Protestant (not just Calvinist) teaching of total depravity, that the unsaved person can do nothing good, a teaching for which there is little biblical basis apart from Augustine’s misunderstanding which was followed by Calvin.

    Augustine was indeed right to oppose the teaching (or alleged teaching) of the British or Irish teacher Pelagius, that humans are intrinsically good and can make themselves acceptable to God by good works. But Augustine’s view of the matter takes things too far in the opposite direction, further than can be justified by the biblical text.

    For the far more likely meaning of the Greek text of Romans 5:12 is that all are counted as sinners because each person individually has sinned. On this view there is perhaps some kind of tendency to sin passed down from Adam to others, but there is no actual guilt. This is consistent with the Old Testament teaching of Ezekiel in which

    The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.

    Ezekiel 18:20 (TNIV)


    http://gentlewisdom.org/augustines-mistake-about-sin/

    Acts 17:and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

    The text tells us that God made every person to live in a certain situation SO THAT they would seek God. God made Joseph behave in an obnoxious manner, upsetting even his father. It set off a chain of events that carried Israel into Egypt. He did this so that the oppression of working as slaves to the world, serving it, the alienation which they surely felt in the wilderness as nomads, would be magnified to the extreme in Egypt. This was so that they would seek God, who would offer a new country,humanity, for them to live in, the new humanity: Christ, the Jerusalem from above:

    Hebrews 11:13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

    God causes everyone to feel oppressed. But some people chose to join the oppressors.

    John 3:19And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;

    This is ancient speech, a bit flowery. Try to understand the plain meaning. In a movie, True Grit, Rooster Cogburn replies in the witness stand that he believes somebody has been “varnishing the truth”. That is 18th Century colloquialism. You know you wouldn’t say it like that today.

    People are born without sin. God didn’t punish those under twenty. When we are mentally competent, we become culpable, made responsible for our wrong actions. Doctors have found that the moral functioning of our brains is only fully developed after we attain majority. Minors are immune from the law, without sin, till then.

    The point is that God wished the entire human race, without partiality, exception, would seek him.

    God made sin exceedingly sinful by showing how even a good thing like the Law can be perverted by selfish desire. Pharoah hardened his heart first. God just hastened the process to make him a vessel of wrath, so that he would be hoist by his own petard, indicating God’s hand in meting out justice. Just as israel lost her firstborn male by drowning, all the firstborn males died in the last plague, as well as other males in the Red Sea: these by drowning. When the surrounding nations heard about the humiliation of Egypt, the world’s superpower, their hearts melted in fear.

    The text says that if the great works done by Jesus had ben done in Sidon and Tyre, those cities would have repented in ashes. Because of the stubbornness, the hard heartednesss, of israel, God invited people who were not family, who didn’t have covenantal ties, were not family by blood, (but by faith) to the Wedding Feast, the greatest exhibition of His great works, the Resurrection.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  8. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    By that logic, it is evident that Paul’s status as a Jew could only be confirmed by Temple Sacrifice. He became as a Jew means he was no more a Jew, had to revert.

    Judaism believes that the blessing of God’s promise to Abraham will only be received to those who have Abraham as their father, either by birth or conversion. Defending this righteousness of their own, they rejected the righteousness given by God, Christ, who therefore is their stumbling block. This is how Judaism is differentiated from Christianity. The Rest is either in Israel or God. Now tell me how Christian Judaism is Rest in Israel.

    1 Corinthians 12:13 was written when the Temple stood. No one with a Jewish identity recognised by Temple Sacrifice existed after AD70.

    No nation exists without land. If tomorrow the US is exiled to Mexico by a Canadian invasion, there wouldn’t be any viable embassies anywhere in the world: what valid visas could they issue? US origin people remaining in the US would be Canadians. So Jews who are not of Judah (Benjamin, Judah and Levi, the last who were not given land), who were of the House of Israel, Ephraim, Ruben, Asher etc., would be Judeans in Jerusalem.

    Quote
    Some historians, and especially Two House advocates, believe the Hebrew Scriptures indicate that the Kingdom of Israel, sometimes referred to as the "House of Joseph", never returned from their Assyrian Captivity 1 Chr 5:26.

    The 1st century Jewish priest and historian, Josephus, writing near the turn of the 2nd century AD, affirmed that the Jews knew where the House of Israel had been taken captive a thousand years earlier:

    …the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country [Media]; wherefore there are but two tribes [Judah and Benjamin] in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers.[3]

    While the multitudinous nature of the exiled ten tribes may be somewhat exaggerated in the opinion of many, it is highly unlikely that Josephus would pen an outright falsehood regarding the Median location of the ten tribes when such a statement could be vociferously denied by his fellow-countrymen if the ten tribes had at any time in the past reunited with the Jews following the Babylonian Captivity.

    As shown previously, the Talmud has Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Eliezer discussing the eventual return of the ten tribes approximately 900 years after the deportation occurred. For the advocate of the two house ideology, this is weighty evidence which indicates that the Northern Kingdom tribes of Israel did not return and unite with the Southern Kingdom of Judah prior to the 1st century.


    …the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country [Media]; wherefore there are but two tribes [Judah and Benjamin] in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers.

    Antiquities of the Jews, 11.5.2, from The Works of Josephus, translated by Whiston, W., Hendrickson Publishers. 1987. 13th Printing. p 294

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_House_theology


    God made out of the one LUMP of clay (people of faith) a vessel for wrath, Israel, and another vessel for honor, Gentiles. The text says Israel was cut off, not many individuals, for harboring disbelief, because of their interpretation of prophecy.

    Romans 9:21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

    It all boils down to whether the entity made for common, dishonorable, use was Israel or a single person.

    No, all people who believe God’s word have Abraham as their father, because identity is by faith, loyalty, not genetics or works of the law, terms of an employment contract, which result not in relationship, love, grace, but payment or penalty.

    The text says the elder individual will serve the younger individual. Show me where this happened.

    In order to be blessings to the world, one must be in Rest, unity with God. The text says only the pure, the justified, will see God. Abraham was justified by just thinking, believing God’s word was true. So there.

    Now you’re becoming incoherent.

    So not just anyone can baptise a seeker, definitely not Judas.
     
  9. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Fruit is produced as the result of sap flowing from the vine to the tip of the branch; that nourishment that is the sap becomes the substance of the fruit.
     
  10. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that 2 Peter 2:20-22 refers to Christians who had truly escaped the pollutions of the world (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:4b); they had truly been washed (2 Peter 2:22b, cf. 1 Corinthians 6:11, Hebrews 10:22) through knowing Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:3b, John 17:3,17). But they nonetheless at some subsequent point wrongly employed their free will to return back to sinning without repentance, so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20b-21, cf. Hebrews 10:26-29).

    *******

    Which means that the works that He requires of us for ultimate salvation (Matthew 7:21) will not be burdensome to us.

    Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" for them to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" for them to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

    For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

    Also, in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

    With conditions laid out in other verses.

    For note that some Christians, at the judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at His future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

    Regarding your four references, note none of them promises ultimate salvation. For it requires obedience (Hebrews 5:9) to the end (Matthew 24:13). And there is no promise of that, because of free will (Matthew 25:26,30).

    Regarding your reference to Luke 8:15, note that in the sower parable the last three types of people all received God's Word and truly came into Christian faith. The one who came into faith on stony ground truly believed for awhile, but subsequently committed apostasy (Luke 8:13; cf. 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), which ultimately results in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b). The one who came into faith on weed-choked ground subsequently neglected to patiently continue in good works, neglected to bear fruit to perfection (Luke 8:14, Colossians 1:10, Revelation 3:1b-2). And the one who came into faith on good ground subsequently brought forth fruit with patience (Luke 8:15), which is required for Christians to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, James 2:24), and not to ultimately lose their salvation (John 15:2a,6, Matthew 25:26,30).

    -

    Regarding your reference to 1 John 2:17, note that the latter part requires works for ultimate salvation, just as, for example, Romans 2:6-8 does.

    *******

    That's right. But as any gardener will tell you, branches filled with sap can still fail to bear fruit.

    That's why Christians must "be careful to maintain good works" (Titus 3:8), "that they be not unfruitful" (Titus 3:14).

    For John 15:2a refers to true Christians, who are truly branches "in" the vine of Jesus Christ, wrongly employing their free will in such a way that they fail to produce good fruit, so that ultimately they are taken away from Jesus (John 15:2a), cut off from Him for their unrepentant laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

    Christians can also be ultimately cut off from Jesus Christ, cast away, and burned; they can ultimately lose their salvation, for not continuing to abide in Jesus (John 15:6), in the sense of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:12b), or unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).
     
  11. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Not at all. For 2 Corinthians 12:9 refers to grace to help in physical infirmities. It in no way contradicts James 2:24, for example,

    That brings to mind Matthew 22:11-13, where the wedding garment represents the righteousness of Christians (Revelation 19:8), which is conditional not only on their continued faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), but also on their continued doing of righteous deeds (1 John 3:7, James 2:24). Some Christians will end up suffering the fate of Matthew 22:13 because of unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8); or because of unrepentant sinfulness (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

    No, because of Matthew 7:21.

    Not from obedience (John 15:14).

    And Christians are servants (2 Timothy 2:24).

    No, the master does not go into debt to his servant (Luke 17:10).

    How does that require that the child was without sin?

    No, sexual desire is not sin, so long as it's part of a marriage (Hebrews 13:4).

    No, because it agrees with the idea of Hebrews 7:9-10.

    Also, to contradict the idea of Romans 5:19a is to contradict the idea of Romans 5:19b.

    No, it has a lot of Biblical basis (e.g. Romans 3:9-12).

    No, for we are all guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived in the womb (Psalms 51:5), because of Romans 5:19a.

    The child of a guilty father is innocent only so long as he is obedient (Ezekiel 18:19).

    Nonelect people can't do that (John 8:42-47).

    No, He doesn't (Job 21:7-15).

    No, everyone is born in sin (Psalms 58:3).

    Even those under twenty are mortal because of sin (Romans 5:12).

    Note that isn't the point, because He didn't (Romans 9:11-22).

    Like Nineveh (Jonah 3:10). But it was still ultimately destroyed (Nahum 3:7).

    *******

    Only as an Old Covenant Jew, not a New Covenant Jew (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    Even New Covenant Judaism believes that (Romans 4:11-12).

    Hebrews 4:11

    And it's still true today (e.g. "Jews for Jesus").

    It does in the sense of a "people" (1 Peter 2:9).

    No, God made out of one lump of clay (humanity) plural vessels of wrath (Romans 9:22), whether Jews or Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-22). And God made plural vessels of mercy, whether Jews or Gentiles (Romans 9:23-24).

    No, for there are Christian Jews as well as Christian Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:13). So only "some" (in the sense of not all) Jews are cut off from the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17a) because of their unbelief in Jesus Christ (Romans 11:20) and His saving New Covenant Passover death on the Cross for our sins (1 Corinthians 5:7b, Matthew 26:28). Compare the Old Covenant cutting off of only some Israelites from Israel if they failed to keep the Old Covenant Passover (Numbers 9:13).

    It happened (de jure) once the younger got the birthright (Hebrews 12:16-17).

    But ultimately by works (James 2:24).

    Even him (cf. Mark 6:7-13), before he became a devil (John 6:70-71).

    For any Christian can baptize any other Christian, just as any Christian can bury any other Christian. For baptism is a kind of burial (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12).
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  12. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    2 Corinthians 12:10That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

    James 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.


    We are discussing the differences in how the New Covenant works from the Old, how superior it is, by changing it from writing up an employment contract to entering a loving relationship. In the first, performance results in wages and non performance results in penalty. In the second, loyalty results in favour, so Paul receives favour just by asking for help in being loyal!

    Paul is happy to be weak, because God’s grace is magnified. James teaches that in situations where loyalty can be displayed, believers must be loyal in action, or they will be disloyal. Just because loyalty is sufficient for God’s grace, it is not loyalty through lip service which will be sufficient in those situations!

    Get a grip, grow up. The world is more complex than your simple literal understandings.

    Wrong, The fault of the guest was in not wearing wedding garments that honored the Bridegroom, to the wedding. The Gentile was thinking of celebrating his own righteousness, instead of celebrating the righteousness of God. Historical scholars now agree that dikaiosune theou stands for the covenantal faithfulness of God, the unconditional fulfilling of the promise to Abraham that the world would be blessed through his seed, by having a Rest to enter, the new humanity in Christ, the second Adam, who is in union with God, to rescue and complete Creation.

    The correct conclusion is that the believer is required to show loyalty as the situation demands. Abraham was found pure, clean, just by mentally believing God would give him a son. When he was asked to sacrifice Isaac, he was found pure by physically taking Isaac to the altar.

    The thief on the cross was excused.

    I could be like Stephen Hawkings, and if I just thought loyal thoughts, I would be saved. Different actions for different situations.

    The disciples were asking for more motivation to forgive their brothers! Jesus was saying that the onus to be motivated was on them. They shouldn’t have followed Him if they didn’t have motivation to forgive, that was a prequalification. He wasn’t there to change their lives, He was there to fulfill it. They are not helping Him, they are helping themselves. Christ does not owe them anything.

    David said he was going to the child. You don’t think David ended up perishing do you?

    It’s what Augustine (who mistakenly created, by not knowing Greek properly, the doctrine of original sin) taught. The doctrine you follow because you didn’t do your homework, research the topic. You just had faith in a doctrine.

    Well Mary was in Adam’s loins too, so how does she avoid carrying his sins and passing them to Christ?

    Let's understand the problem. The text says that many righteous people were upset at the condition of humanity, the world:

    Hebrews 11:13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

    It also says that humanity was contaminated by sin:

    Numbers 35:33So you shall not pollute the land in which you are; for blood pollutes the land and no expiation can be made for the land for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it.

    God’s solution is to fulfill the desire of those who want a new humanity (land, country, city) to live in:

    Hebrews 11:14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

    God does this by removing the sin of humanity:

    Zechariah 3:9See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyesb on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the LordAlmighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

    Romans 3:9-12 does not teach that all men are sinners. It teaches that the Gentiles were not more righteous than the Jews, since they were boasting that being included in salvation by grace through faith was a reward for good works. Not so said Paul, it was a gift, not wages, not the result of works.

    Matthew 18:10"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

    Mark 10:14But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

    That doesn’t make sense.

    Everybody receives the light, but some reject it, because they love to be oppressors so that they can serve their own interests, enjoy earthly treasures, treasures that do not last.

    John 3:19And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil; ...

    If they don’t receive the light, they will be left in darkness, excluded from God’s prompting.

    Sin is not counted where there is no law. Law has no jurisdiction until a person knows good from evil.

    Death is separation from God. Those under twenty always have their angels facing God.

    Romans 9 deals with the nation of Israel, not individuals.

    *******

    Miraculous works are to be shown to Israel, for repentance. They claimed automatic righteousness through flesh. They stumbled on the stumbling block and were left desolate. Ultimately, Gentiles from Nineveh, Sidon and Tyre, amongst others who were not seeking righteousness, found righteousness, whilst israel who was seeking a righteousness of their own failed.

    Romans 9: 30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

    33just as it is written,
    “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
    AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

    Why didn’t Paul tell the Old Covenant Jew he was a New Covenant Jew? Why does it say “to the Jews I became as a Jew”?

    If New Covenant believers accept that Abraham is their father, then they are Gentiles, because Abraham was a Gentile. Checkmate.

    The Rest is in God and God is not Judaism. Judaism is cut off. The right Rest is not in the righteousness of Judaism, but in the righteousness of God, Christ.

    The Chief Rabbi of Israel has declared that Jews who become Christians are Gentiles.

    What nation is the House of Judah and what nation is the House of Israel?

    A total paralytic can be saved.

    Yet he was still in the church.

    Please explain how baptism works.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  13. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    It is not required for ultimate salvation that we bear fruit with patience; but it is true that if anyone has an honest and good heart they will bear fruit with patience. This is the born again heart.
    .
    .
    .
    Ephesians 2:8-9 says: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Now if we are ultimately saved by works then these verses do not stand true because we would be saved by works. And the verse says clearly that we are saved by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

    If I am ultimately saved by works then my salvation is of works: but the passage in question says that salvation is not of works. It does not specify "initial salvation" and so it must be including ultimate salvation in saying that salvation is not of works. If it specified "initial salvation" then I can see where ultimate salvation would not be included when the verse says salvation is not of works. But because initial salvation isn't specified, and ultimate salvation is not excluded by such a specification, understand that ultimate salvation is included in the statement that salvation is not of works. Therefore ultimate salvation, also, is not of works.

    The reality is that Jesus said, You must be born again.

    How is a man born again? I would ask you, Have you been born again? And if so, how did it happen for you? Did you receive Jesus by faith, or did you do some good work to obtain your salvation? What good work did you do to obtain your salvation?

    Because it says in Colossians 2:6 that as we received Jesus the Lord, so we should walk in Him. So I assume that you received Jesus by doing some good work, since you believe that your ultimate salvation depends on your doing good works. You believe that you maintain your salvation by doing good works; your ultimate salvation depends on that.

    And Romans 1:17 says, For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, the just shall live by faith.

    So I am righteous, not by my works, but by my faith from beginning to end. My salvation begins with faith, ends with faith, and is by faith all the way through.

    Now in Galatians 3:11-12 it says this: But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them.

    I would ask, what kind of works are you doing that the law does not require, that you are saved by ultimately (whether the Old Testament law, or the "law of Christ")?

    Are not any works that you do to obtain ultimate salvation, works that are required by the law (whether the Old Testament law, or the "law of Christ")?

    Therefore if you do good works in order to obtain "ultimate salvation" you would ultimately be justified by the law and not by faith.

    You have gone from faith to works in the understanding of what saves you; from the Spirit to the flesh.

    And in Galatians 3:1-6, O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you: Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth unto you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

    I hope that you can see that by seeking to obtain ultimate salvation by works, you are truly seeking to obtain ultimate salvation by the works of the law; you are seeking to be justified by the law. You have gone from faith to works; and from the Spirit to the flesh.

    Now if you ever received the Holy Spirit by the works of the law or by works, then perhaps you should continue in that. If you are saved by the flesh, then perhaps you can maintain your salvation in the power of the flesh.

    But if you received the Holy Spirit through the hearing of faith, why would you depart from that to pursue "ultimate salvation" by the works of the law? It makes no sense; and Paul the apostle by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit would say that you are foolish.

    Abraham was not accounted righteous by the works of the law either. He was accounted righteous because he believed God; it was by the hearing of faith that Abraham was accounted righteous.

    So as we have begun in our walk with Christ, so we should continue in our walk with Christ (Colossians 2:6). If you began by doing some work, then continue by doing good works. But if you began by faith, don't depart from faith and try to save yourself by the works of the law.

    If you are going to do good works, do it because you are saved and because you rest secure in that; not because you have to do them in order to obtain ultimate salvation. In seeking to obtain ultimate salvation by works, you are seeking a paycheck from God (Romans 4:4). However, you are a sinner (Romans 3:23) so the wages you will be earning can only be death (Romans 6:23).
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  14. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that those are not mutually exclusive, just as a marriage can be a contract in addition to a loving relationship.

    With regard to the New Covenant, the original Greek word (diatheke: G1242) translated as New "Covenant" in Hebrews 8:8, for example, means "a contract" (Strong's Greek Dictionary).

    And, indeed, under the New Covenant, initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

    But ultimate salvation still requires works (Romans 2:6-8).

    Even Abraham had to be justified by works, ultimately (James 2:24).

    Note that there's no proof that he didn't do good works before backsliding and committing theft.

    Even a Christian as disabled as he was can still do good works, such as praying for others and giving alms, both of which actions are highly prized by God (Acts 10:4).

    And for different people even in the same situations.

    For Jesus Christ gives each Christian his or her own spiritual work to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8; 1 Corinthians 12:28-30; 1 Corinthians 12:8-10). And He gives different Christians different amounts of spiritual talents (Matthew 25:15). So it is not possible for all Christians to do the same spiritual work for Jesus, or to accomplish the same amount for Him. And so any one Christian should not (as sometimes happens) judge any other Christian for not doing the same spiritual work that he or she is doing, or for not accomplishing as much as he or she is accomplishing (Romans 14:4). Nor should any Christian think that the spiritual work which Jesus has given him or her is unnecessary and not a real part of the operation of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:14-30). But there is still no room for complacency, because for those Christians who have been given much spiritual talent by God, much will be required of them by God (Luke 12:48b). And for those Christians who have not been given as much spiritual talent by God, they are still expected to accomplish something for Him (Galatians 6:4-5), and not just to sit back and do nothing at all for Him (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

    Of course. For if we do not forgive other people, then God will not forgive us for our own sins (Matthew 6:15).

    What? The only way to fulfill it is to change it, and radically (2 Corinthians 5:15).

    Both. For He benefits from our personal labor for His Kingdom (Matthew 25:20-21), just as we as Christians benefit from the personal labor of others for His Kingdom (John 4:38).

    Of course not (Luke 17:10).

    They both went to Hades.

    But all obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the Church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus Christ into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all of the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

    The doctrine of original sin is not from him, but from the Bible (Romans 5:19a, Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10).

    Original sin could be passed on only through the male seed, so that Jesus Christ could be conceived without original sin by being conceived without any human father (Luke 1:34-35).

    Only elect humanity, not nonelect humanity (Romans 9:11-22). And not elect people who commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29).

    Of course it does. Otherwise, Jesus would not have had to die for our sins (Romans 5:6-9). He would have just come to lead the non-sinners.

    Note that neither verse says or requires that we are not all guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived in the womb (Psalms 51:5), because of Romans 5:19a.

    Of course it does. For there is no innocence apart from obedience. For disobedience is sin (1 Samuel 15:23).
     
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    John 1:9 can refer to Jesus Christ being the source of human consciousness in general. It does not contradict double predestination (Romans 9:11-24), which means that some humans are nonelect children of the devil who cannot ever believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47, Matthew 13:38b-39).

    The elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

    Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). And so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13), through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65), or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people cannot understand the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18), because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

    Nonelect people cannot ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to elect individuals (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians, so that on their own they cannot repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

    It is always counted with regard to mortality (Romans 5:13-14, Romans 6:23).

    But not themselves, who would have gone to Hades before Christ, just as even Abraham did (Luke 16:23).

    And after Christ, only elect people can gain the faith to avoid Hades (Acts 13:48b).

    And even twelve-year-olds can have spiritual, and so legal, awareness (Luke 2:42-49).

    Are you thinking of the idea of "soul sleep"?

    If so, note that only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4), or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

    So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21), or in fiery punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' future, Second Coming, He will bring with Him from heaven all of the souls of all obedient Christians who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

    Sometime after the subsequent Millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), all of the souls in hell (i.e. all non-Christians who have ever died) will be physically resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which is the second death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will suffer along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

    Also, the future, eternal, conscious suffering of all non-Christians must not be considered as eternal life, but as an eternal, conscious, ongoing, second death (Revelation 21:8, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45b-46).

    No, it deals with individuals (Romans 9:11-23), whether Jews or Gentiles (Romans 9:24), such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-22).

    Or not (Matthew 12:39).

    Which was wrong.

    For while all genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5), being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, is not based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

    All Jewish and Gentile Christians are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Jewish and Gentile Christians are heirs of all of the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

    In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", the apostle Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26), and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

    The stumbling block was the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 9:32).

    He did in some cases (e.g. Acts 13:26-41).

    But in other cases he didn't (1 Corinthians 9:20), because they would have cast him out before he even had a chance to converse with them.

    It means "as" an Old Covenant Jew. It did not mean that Paul was not a New Covenant Jew (Acts 22:3; 1 Corinthians 12:13).

    But he was also the father of circumcision, the basis for Jewish identity (Romans 4:12).

    And, indeed, all those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have been made spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    He is the founder of New Covenant Judaism (Jeremiah 31:31).

    Only Old Covenant Judaism (Hebrews 7:18-19).

    They are the same under the New Covenant (Hebrews 4:11, Hebrews 12:24).

    He is powerless to declare anything, so far as God is concerned.

    For Jews who become Christians are still Jews (Acts 22:3).

    Both are the Church (1 Peter 2:9) and non-Christian elect Jews (Acts 2:36).

    In order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). The original Greek noun for "baptism" (baptismos) is derived from the original Greek verb for "baptize" (baptizo), which means to immerse. For it is derived from the original Greek verb "bapto", which means to cover wholly with a fluid. We are to be "buried" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12), and no one is buried by merely having some water sprinkled on his forehead. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits: "In the Latin Church, immersion seems to have prevailed until the twelfth century. After that time it is found in some places even as late as the sixteenth century. Infusion and aspersion, however, were growing common in the thirteenth century and gradually prevailed in the Western Church". On what basis did the Catholic Church, or any other church for that matter, abandon the requirement of immersion?

    Also, "buried" is both literal and symbolic. Our literally being buried (immersed) in the water of baptism is symbolic of our dying and being buried into Jesus Christ's literal death and burial for our sins (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12). Similarly, when we literally rise up out of the water of baptism, this is symbolic of our being raised up into a new life in Jesus, just as Jesus was literally raised from the dead (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12). So if we deny our need to be immersed and then to come up out of the water, this is akin to denying the need for Jesus to literally die for our sins and be buried, and then to literally rise from the dead (1 Corinthians 15). That is, if we feel free to claim that the burial of baptism is wholly symbolic, then what will prevent us from claiming that Jesus' death and resurrection were also wholly symbolic, that they never actually happened, or never had to happen, literally?
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    It is (Romans 2:6-8).

    No, for the born again heart can fail to bear fruit with patience (John 15:2a).

    For Matthew 25:26,30 shows that even someone who was a servant of Jesus Christ can ultimately lose his salvation because of unrepentant laziness. One way that a Christian could desire to become lazy without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term), that he continues in it over time until his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12). Love for God means choosing to do what God says to do (1 John 5:3). So if one's love for God grows cold (Matthew 24:12), one will no longer choose to do what God says to do (John 14:24), meaning that one will become lazy in God's eyes (Matthew 25:26,30).

    That refers to initial salvation, not ultimate salvation (Matthew 7:21).

    Also, it is impossible for people to believe, or to continue to believe, all of the right things, apart from God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, Hebrews 12:2), and some measure of His Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Also, it is impossible for people to perform, or to continue to perform, all of the right actions as Christians, apart from God making it possible for Christians to do that (Philippians 2:12-13, John 15:4-5). And it is impossible for people to repent, if a sin is committed, apart from God making it possible to repent (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18, Romans 8:13). So even if Christians continue to believe, act, and repent as they ought to, they must stay so humble that they never give themselves any credit or glory (Luke 17:10, Galatians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 1:29,31). But when Jesus Christ judges the Church at His future, Second Coming, He will give obedient Christians some credit (Matthew 25:21). Also, God does glorify Christians (Romans 8:30).

    And faith (James 2:24).

    No, it is of works (Hebrews 5:9).

    Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is instant, in the sense of it being a one-time event, just as the birth of an infant is instant, in the sense of it being a one-time event.

    Also, God grants initial salvation by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), just as infants are born without their works. But just as an infant after he is born needs to begin to breath, and then to continue to breathe, if he is to remain alive, so a new Christian after he is born again needs to begin to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and to continue to perform them (Titus 3:8), if his faith is to remain alive (James 2:26).

    For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That is why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

    The breathing analogy (James 2:26) does not include the automatic aspect of breathing. For Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible do not include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, Christians, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2), does not mean that Christians have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.

    That's the Old Covenant law, not the New Covenant law (John 15:10).

    That means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, especially its physical circumcision (Galatians 6:12-13), are works of the flesh, as opposed to spiritual works of faith (Philippians 3:2-14; 1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8). For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12). Also, compare what Romans 7:5-6 says.

    Galatians 3:2-3 means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law cannot make Christians perfect. Galatians 3:2-3 is not contradicting that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b).

    Galatians 3:2-25 means that all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, should stop trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For Galatians 3:2-25 says that the works of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are works of the flesh instead of God's Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:2-3). And Galatians 3:2-25 shows that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to do the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law place themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10). And Galatians 3:2-25 says that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was only a temporary schoolmaster, which Christians, both Jews and Gentiles (so that Paul, a Jew, can say "we"), are no longer under (Galatians 3:24-25, cf. Romans 7:6).

    But works nonetheless, ultimately (James 2:24).

    No, for a master does not go into debt to his servant (Luke 17:10).

    Unless there is repentance and confession (1 John 1:9).
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    @Bible2+:

    Since now on many occasions you have not answered the whole of my posts but rather have pulled out certain statements to answer with your doctrine, I am satisfied that you are unable to answer the things that I have written that you have not included in your answering posts.

    Now I know that you believe what you believe and that you think that the scripture substantiates what you believe. However what you believe is not sound doctrine.

    You have been unable to answer my last line of reasoning as to why Ephesians 2:8-9 means that even ultimate salvation is not of works. You have only been able to leave out that reasoning when formulating your answer; which means that you are unable to answer it.

    I encourage the onlooker to read their Bibles a book of the Bible at a time so that they can get an understanding of the context of what they are reading. Only after you understand what the scriptures are saying in context through personal reading time is anyone able to understand the meatier things of God's word, wherein we compare spiritual things with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13).

    However, for the most part, understanding the Bible from the perspective of "Here a little, there a little" is not good: it will cause you to go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (Isaiah 28:13). The only way to avoid this pitfall is to build your understanding on the solid and sure foundation of a relationship with Jesus Christ (Isaiah 28:16), and to read through books of the Bible so you can understand the meaning of verses as they are given in their context.

    Also, believing that salvation is ultimately by works does not place anyone on a sure foundation. It is a sketchy salvation to say the least. If my ultimate salvation is based on works, then if I fail to do a work that God has ordained for me to do and don't realize it (or if I sin and don't realize it), I am under condemnation. And in a works salvation mentality, there is always one more work that you have to do to obtain ultimate salvation; and if you don't do it, you are under condemnation if it never comes to your attention that you failed to do that work. There is no assurance in such a proposition; yet when the apostles preached to the people of Thessalonica, the word to them was with much assurance (1 Thessalonians 1:5 (kjv)). Therefore it is the biblical model of salvation that there is much assurance in the salvation that God has given unto us; and the "ultimate salvation by works" model does not provide that assurance. In fact, what some people attempt to peddle is the idea that verses that speak of eternal security for the born again believer do not really apply because of other verses that warn against falling away. But those who have been given the promises (to whom the promises apply) are the same people who heed the warnings; they are recipients of the promises because their heart is soft enough to heed the warnings; they take into account the whole counsel of God, and in doing so they are able to lay hold of promises in God's word (2 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 11:33, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Romans 4:20-22). Because they are born again.

    Now if a single scripture says to me that someone who is born again may not necessarily bear fruit, then I will have to weigh that against other scriptures that teach that being born again means that I have a regenerated heart (Titus 3:4-7, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Ezekiel 36:25-27); because it is only logical to me that a regenerated heart is a heart that desires to obey the will of the Lord; because that is the nature of my regenerated heart ever since I was born again. It is also clear to me that scripture teaches that if someone has a faith that doesn't produce good fruit, their faith is a dead faith.

    So if you (the reader) have any doubt about whether you will endure to the end, why not ask the Lord to keep you to the end? And also, the forgiveness that Christ offers to you is not based on your performance but on what He did for you. Whenever anyone truly receives this, they will be made into a new creature in Christ. It has to do with God taking off the pressure of having to measure up to the law and doing good works in order to save yourself. If you come to realize this important truth, you will be set free to obey God out of the purer motivation of thanksgiving for what He did for you rather than doing something in order to obtain your ultimate salvation; which, whether @Bible2+ realizes it or not, is asking God for a paycheck (and therefore there will be an earning of the wages spoken of in Romans 6:23) because in doing works to obtain ultimate salvation the reward cannot be rendered of grace but of debt (Romans 4:4). And God offers salvation (both initial and ultimate) as a free gift to any and all who will receive it (Romans 5:15-17, Romans 6:23).
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  19. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    It can't mean that, because ultimate salvation is of works (James 2:24).

    Actually, it is vital (Isaiah 28:9-10).

    For even when what one verse says appears plain, it can still be misinterpreted, such as by reading into it things that it does not say, things which would contradict what other verses say. To arrive at correct doctrine, a verse in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13). Our doctrine must be based on what the entire Bible says (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4), and not just on what some unqualified verses say.

    An example of an unqualified verse would be John 3:36. We cannot say that it means that all we have to believe is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. For John 3:36 must be qualified by, for example, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (and vice versa). We have to believe both that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day. So when John 3:36 is qualified, something is added to it, not subtracted from it. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 adds further belief requirements to John 3:36 (and vice versa). 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not contradict the belief requirement of John 3:36 (or vice versa).

    Another way that John 3:36 must be qualified is that we cannot say that it means that all that Christians have to do is believe for at least one moment during their lifetime. For John 3:36 must be qualified by other Bible verses which show that Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue to believe to the end (Hebrews 3:6,14, Colossians 1:23). And this is just one of the conditions which the Bible as a whole shows must be met for Christians to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

    Also, compare how Jesus Christ qualified the verse in Matthew 4:6 (Psalms 91:12) with the verse in Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16). When Jesus said: "It is written again" (Matthew 4:7), He was referring to the principle of Isaiah 28:9-10. For in Matthew 4:7 the original Greek word (G3825) translated as "again" can mean "furthermore" (Strong's Greek Dictionary).

    Regarding your reference to Isaiah 28:13, it refers only to those without the baptism of God's Holy Spirit in Isaiah 28:11-12.

    For regarding Isaiah 28:11-12, there tongues are not a sign of judgment, but can be a sign and part of the refreshing (Isaiah 28:12) which comes from God's Holy Spirit subsequent to Christian conversion (Acts 3:19, Acts 2:38, Acts 19:2,6). For tongues edify the spirits of Christians who speak them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14), and, when interpreted, tongues edify others (1 Corinthians 14:5b). But because non-Christians and Spiritually-unlearned Christians see tongues-speaking as "mad" (crazy) (1 Corinthians 14:23), they scorn the refreshing (Isaiah 28:14,11-12). They refuse to hear it (Isaiah 28:12). They forbid it (1 Corinthians 14:39). They quench it (1 Thessalonians 5:19), if only in a desire to have solely the Bible's precepts (Isaiah 28:12-13).

    While it is vital to have the Bible's precepts in order to have correct knowledge and doctrine (Isaiah 28:9-10; 2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4), this is different than the refreshing. Christians should have both. Tongues and some other Spiritual gifts will cease operating (1 Corinthians 13:8-11) only when the need for the refreshing (Isaiah 28:12) and edification of Christians (1 Corinthians 14:4-5) will cease, which will be only when obedient Christians become perfect, like Jesus Christ, when they see Him face to face at His future, Second Coming from heaven (1 Corinthians 13:10,12; 1 John 3:2).

    -

    That is, the Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10), which operate in Christians who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46), will not cease operating until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming. For 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when Christians become perfect, when they see Jesus face to face at His Second Coming (1 John 3:2), will they no longer need Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues, and the word of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8,10). During the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which will just precede Jesus' Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31), are some in the Church going to reject the ministry of God's Two Witnesses because it will involve them prophesying and performing miracles (Revelation 11:3,6)?

    Because Jesus Christ's Second Coming, like the preceding Tribulation, has not happened yet, all of the Holy Spirit's gifts are still operating in the Church today, in Pentecostal congregations, and in charismatic congregations, which can be of almost any denomination. God's Word commands Christians to operate in the Spiritual gifts when Christians come together (1 Corinthians 14:26-31). So congregations today should be careful not to quench the Holy Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), by despising prophesyings (1 Thessalonians 5:20), or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). Tongues are one of the Spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) through which Christians can be regularly edified (1 Corinthians 14:4-5,12,26). Not all Holy Spirit-baptized Christians will speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, Acts 10:45-46). For tongues are one of the Holy Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Corinthians 14:5).

    Different Christians receive different kinds of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8), while other tongues are languages which people cannot understand (1 Corinthians 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Corinthians 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but are not understood, and angelic languages (1 Corinthians 13:1). Unintelligible tongues are not useless, however. For when they are prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:2,28), they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20) to bless and thank God (1 Corinthians 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation, and then Spiritually interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5b,12-13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God, they are singing the "spiritual songs" which the Bible distinguishes from psalms and hymns (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).

    The Bible sets no restrictions on how much Christians can pray and sing to God in tongues out loud at home or silently in church (1 Corinthians 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Samuel 1:13,17). Indeed, the apostle Paul prayed and sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Corinthians 14:18-19). But regarding church meetings, the Bible sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: They are not to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there is someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only three people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:27). Everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so that he or she can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).
     
  20. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    The best way to study the Bible, as a whole, is simply to read every word of it (Matthew 4:4), over and over again. It ends up explaining itself once what it teaches has become engrained in your memory, and you see the connections between verses regarding something in one place in the Bible and other verses regarding that same thing in other places in the Bible. It is by comparing and combining related verses in different places in the Bible that we arrive at correct doctrine (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

    It is also a good practice to always start and end each Bible-reading session with a prayer for understanding and remembrance of the whole Bible.

    One great way to read the whole Bible, over and over, is to think of it as seven volumes:

    1. Genesis to Deuteronomy
    2. Joshua to Esther
    3. Job to Song of Solomon
    4. Isaiah to Malachi
    5. Matthew to Acts
    6. Romans to Philemon
    7. Hebrews to Revelation

    You can read a chapter in each volume every day. This will keep you current in every part of the Bible. After a while, there will not be any part that you have not read recently enough to remember what it teaches. When you reach the end of a volume, simply start again at the first chapter of that volume. In this way, you will be cycling through smaller volumes like #6 and #7 much more often than larger volumes like #2, but the smaller volumes are so much more dense with doctrine that it is profitable to read them over and over more often.

    Also, you can listen to recordings of people reading the Bible out loud whenever you need to keep your eyes on something else while you listen (such as keeping your eyes on the road while you are driving, or on a cutting board while you are preparing food, or on your clippers while you are trimming a hedge). In this way, you can listen to the Bible throughout the day, whenever you don't need to be thinking about something else (such as at your workplace or school). Also, you can listen to the Bible even while you are going to sleep, so that it will become part of even your subconscious mind.

    It does (Matthew 7:21).

    Also, Christians, no matter what their rapture-timing view, need to be obedient to God now if they want to spiritually endure to the end during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:13). For only obedient Christians will have their spiritual houses on the rock, as it were, so that they will endure the coming storm (Matthew 7:24-25). Disobedient Christians will have their spiritual houses on the sand, so that they will fall away during the storm (Matthew 7:26-27). They will become part of the falling away, the apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), the departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), which will occur during the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Isaiah 8:21-22), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

    The ability of Christians (although not their choosing) to repent from and confess to God every sin that they commit -- including sins of omission: James 4:17 -- is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus Christ will send them warning and chastening to make sure that they know that they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And He will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). But if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time that they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21), until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), then they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

    If Christians become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus Christ's warning and refused to repent from a sin, then they need to pray and ask Him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists in their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so that they can then repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

    But not necessarily for the rest of our lives, because of free will (John 15:2a, Matthew 25:26,30).

    OSAS must ultimately negate free will.

    There is no way that we can ever save ourselves (John 14:6). Indeed, we can't even do good works apart from Jesus (John 15:5b).

    But obedience is still required for ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9).

    No, for a master does not go into debt to his servant (Luke 17:10).
     
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