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Featured What is the Gospel?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    A man, in order to be saved, must put his trust wholly in what Christ did for him on the Cross, and that alone. If a man puts his trust in his works to save him to any degree, he is not putting his trust in Christ for salvation (Galatians 3:11-12). And if he is not putting his trust in Christ with his whole heart, he is not saved.

    Works stem out of a living faith in Jesus Christ, every time, unless it is a deathbed conversion. The works do not save (Ephesians 2:9 and context). They are the result of, and the evidence of, real salvation.

    Works that are done in order to earn ultimate salvation are not done out of a thankfulness for being saved by God, and are dead works. Because they are done in order to earn or keep salvation, they are not done from the perspective of one who knows he is saved (see 1 John 5:13). From the perspective of one who is saved.

    Because if we are ultimately saved by works, there is always one more work that we have to do in order to secure our ultimate salvation. And if I fail to do a work that is ordained for me to do, I would lose my salvation ultimately. (And therefore I would not be doing my works out of being saved, but in order to stay saved). This is not the God that I serve. The God that I serve has assured me salvation absolutely (1 Thessalonians 1:5 (kjv), John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5). Because I have received these scriptures as promises from the most High (2 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 11:33, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Romans 4:20-22). If I had not received these as promises, then verses that say that I could lose my salvation might apply. But because I have received these as promises (by faith), the verses that warn against losing my salvation only apply to the extent that I am to heed them and not go across the boundaries that God has set. As long as I stay within the boundaries, my salvation is absolutely secure. And because I love the Lord, and because I have received these promises, I will not go anywhere near the boundaries, I want to stay as near to Him as I possibly can. I will hold to the confidence and rejoicing of hope firm unto the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14). By faith in Jesus Christ, and because of my prayer that I will never harden my heart against Him, and that He will keep me to the end, my love will never grow cold. For it is written, Ask and it shall be given you; seek and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you. Matthew 7:7.
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness (Romans 4:3-5, Galatians 3:6).

     
  3. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    The sin is to follow "rabbis", different schools like the schools of Hillel and Shammei of Jesus's days, and the different denominations of today.

    What is sound Bible doctrine? Even Iraeneus twisted Scripture because he did not know Jewish theology and was influenced by Greek philosophy which taught that the body was evil and the spirit was good, copied by Augustine, who was a Gnostic convert. Pelagius was condemned for views he never taught and what he actually taught is accepted by the Eastern Orthodox Church, which is not influenced by Western Greek philosophy. Archaeological discoveries have unearthed documents which strongly support the need of works for salvation as taught clearly in Romans 2 and James 2. They explain that works of the Law mean circumcision and other rituals that convert Gentiles into Jews, and maintain them as Jews.

    Just google “The Original view of Orginal Sin”, “The most disastrous translation of a Preposition By Augustine” and “The New Perspective on Paul” to see sound reasoning and historical research being used to identify the errors of the Early Church Fathers. That is if you want to leave the control of the denominations, to stop drinking the Koolade.

    The statements of the Bible need to be interpreted. That’s why the Pharisees searched Scriptures to find out how to receive eternal life. IOW, it’s important to use the right method. Different scholars use different methods. Some text needs to be understood as allegory, have a metaphorical meaning. Some as literal meaning. That’s why we read commentaries.

    Suppose the Bereans read the text which said that believers must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ in order to have a share in Him, have access to His inheritance. Can a direct literal reading of the text help them? No!!! They need to interpret it. It should be interpreted as “Unless a believer lives like Jesus, His teachings abide in them, he will not have access to his inheritance". This teaching supported in many other places in the Bible. If your teaching is not supported elsewhere, that is a red flag , a warning of wrong understanding.
     
  4. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Exactly, it was not borrowed from God. His act was actually righteous. Any child knows that. It can only be misunderstood if a person wants to force his theology, and other teachings which depend on the teaching, on to the text.
     
  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right, because of election.

    For the elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

    Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). And so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13), through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65), or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people cannot understand the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18), because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

    Nonelect people cannot ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to elect individuals (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians, so that on their own they cannot repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

    If you mean Old Covenant Judaism, it was made null and void on the Cross of Jesus Christ (Matthew 27:51).

    And this brings to mind:

    Matthew 24:3 . . . what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Here the original Greek word (G0165) translated as "world" can be translated as "age" (Ephesians 2:7, Colossians 1:26).

    It is sometimes claimed that the end of the age refers to the end of the Old Covenant age in 70 AD. But the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not at the destruction of the second Jewish temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment that Jesus Christ died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a) and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment that He brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

    Also, while the apostles of the Church asked Jesus Christ about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), He did not tell them that the end of the age would occur at the destruction of the second Jewish temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, or even at the end of the Tribulation, that is, at Jesus' post-tribulation, Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus did not tell His apostles other things during His ministry (John 16:12). It would not be until later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all non-Christians of all times will be cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), will not occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

    They do (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    No, it deals with individual babies (Romans 9:11-13), and individual Gentiles such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17).

    He did in giving up his birthright to him (Hebrews 12:16).

    No, it's nonelect individuals, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-22).

    They can only change if they are elect (John 6:65).

    Not an Old Covenant Jew (Romans 7:6). But a Christian Jew (Acts 22:3).

    He publicly testified of Christ (Luke 23:40-42), which is a work in addition to faith (Romans 10:10), works being required for ultimate salvation (James 2:24).

    No, it's a one-time event (Acts 8:36-39).

    Because it is required for ultimate salvation.

    For people must forsake everything that they have if they are to be Jesus Christ's disciples (Luke 14:33).

    When you hear Jesus Christ say to you: "Come and follow Me" (Luke 18:22), you must walk away from everything but the clothes on your back (Luke 18:23, Luke 9:59-62, Matthew 19:29). He may have you walk only as far as the city limits and then turn around and go back home, as long as you were willing to keep going indefinitely. Or, He may ask you to keep going, until He has separated your soul from all attachment to the temporary things of this fallen world (1 John 2:15-17; James 4:4; 2 Timothy 4:10, John 12:25-26).
     
  6. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that Biblical doctrine teaches ultimate salvation by works (Romans 2:6-8).

    Note that the 144,000 will be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will be part of the Church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the Church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could already be part of the Church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the first stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the Tribulation along with the rest of the Church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Also, the 144,000, who are of the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the Church. For just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

    That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted by God into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted by God into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into by God, and he will receive an answer, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

    Also, all those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have been made spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19), because the Israel that they are from is not genetic Israel, with its twelve genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all elect people (Romans 9:11-13), whether Jews or Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

    *******

    It does. For it shows that ultimate salvation will be given based on perseverance in good works.

    Some Christians, at the judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at His future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

    But they can ultimately lose their salvation due to, for example, unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29).

    Romans 11:5-6 refers to the "election" of grace, which is not based on works. For elect people are chosen by God (to be shown grace, at some point during their lifetime) before they have done anything at all (Romans 9:11-24), even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).

    *******

    But not necessarily for the rest of his life, because of free will (Matthew 25:26,30).

    That's why Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8).

    *******

    That reference is about the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which Christians are not under (Hebrews 7:18-19).

    That reference is about initial salvation, not ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9).

    No, only works done apart from faith are dead.

    That reference is about initial salvation, not ultimate salvation (Matthew 7:21).

    No, for there is provision for repented sins (1 John 1:9).

    Regarding John 5:24, it refers to salvation in the sense of Christians' present, spiritual salvation, instead of the still-future, ultimate redemption of their physical bodies (Romans 8:23-25). John 5:24 means that a Christian will not ultimately come into condemnation, as in an ultimate loss of salvation, so long as he continues to the end to believe (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23, John 15:6), to perform good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, John 15:2a), and to repent from every sin that he commits (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). All Christians will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10).

    Regarding John 6:47, compare the similar John 3:16.

    There, the translation "whoever believes in him shall not perish" is a mistranslation of the original Greek, in which the verb is in the subjunctive mood. This means that it is referring to a conditional action. So it should be translated as: "may not perish". Other, related verses show that Christians ultimately retaining their salvation is conditional on their continued belief to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 6:4-8, Colossians 1:23), their continued good works to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30), and their continued repentance to the end from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). And none of these things are assured, because of free will.

    The way to do Christian theology is not to base it on what an unqualified (in the sense of an unconditioned) verse says to Christians, but on what the entire Bible says to Christians (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4). A verse applicable to Christians in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by, conditioned by) other, related verses (also applicable to Christians) elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

    Regarding John 10:27-30, verses 28-29 mean that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

    Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

    Regarding Hebrews 13:5, its latter part applies to Christians only if they remain faithful to Jesus Christ. For "if we deny him, he also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12b).
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Again, faith is not an act, it is a response to the message of the gospel. The same heat that melts the butter hardens the clay. You respond with faith or unbelief depending on which type you are. You are either a vessel of honour and mercy or you are a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction.

    And, if anyone wants to insist that salvation is by works, John 6:28-29 would tell you that the only work that will even suffice is the work of believing on Him whom God hath sent.

    Now in Ephesians 2:8-9 it should become clear that even faith is the gift of God (and this is borne out in the Greek).

    So then, while faith is not borrowed from God, it is received from the Lord (God).

    Yes, faith is a righteous thing to have. However, the scriptures in question do not say that faith is a righteous thing to have; what they say is that faith is counted for righteousness.

    What that means is, that when we believe, God looks at our faith and says, "That is righteousness".

    Not that our faith is righteousness, but that our faith is counted as righteousness.

    His righteousness is accounted to us because of our faith, our faith is reckoned to be His righteousness.

    Because we believe we are counted as righteous, apart from any good works that we might do to try and save ourselves.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    1 John 5:13 says this: These things have I written to you that believe on the name of the Son of God: that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    The quality of eternal life is that it is everlasting; that means that it will never have an end, it will last for ever. Now I have heard your argument, that a gem from heaven is eternal and yet one may lose it. But I would point out that eternal life is not like an eternal gem. Life is something that is intrinsic in me. If I lose it I don't have life anymore; and therefore I would not have spiritual life anymore and would be spiritually dead. If I am spiritually dead but was spiritually alive before, then my spiritual life was not eternal or everlasting because it came to an end when I lost it. That is the nature of life (while it is not the nature of a gem). If I lose my life then I am dead, and that means my life was not eternal or everlasting, because I died; therefore I am not alive anymore in that scenario and my life came to an end. And because my life came to an end it was not eternal, and neither was it everlasting; because it came to an end.

    And in 1 John 5:13 it is written so that we might know that we have eternal life: and the quality of this life is that it can never come to an end; and if it somehow be lost, it also was not eternal because in losing my life I would not be alive anymore and my life was not therefore eternal, in that scenario, it did not last for ever.

    And I would say also that in your (@Bible2+) responses you have picked apart certain statements but have not dealt with my messages as a whole. Jesus said, The thief cometh not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy; but I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. John 10:10.

    The message that I bring is intended to edify the believer and to bring salvation to the lost. It truly is the message of the gospel. Unfortunately there are people here who purport cult-like doctrines even taking Bible verses out of context in order to substantiate them, in order to contradict the true message of the gospel. To the one who is undiscerning, these cultic doctirnes may even hold sway in the mind of the person who sees or hears them; because without the Holy Spirit there is no way of telling what is what. It is really unfortunate and a work of the enemy. And perhaps the reason why the scripture says that the fate of false teachers was marked out long ago as condemnation; because people who don't know any better may never come to the knowledge of the truth because they don't know what to believe when faced with opposing views side-by-side.

    I would encourage the reader to go to a thread that I will shortly post, and do what it says in the thread, so that you can receive the Holy Spirit and thus find the discernment that you need to be able to sift through all these posts. Because the gospel has been preached in this thread; but there is also an opposing gospel that is not the truth (Galatians 1:6-9, 1 Corinthians 11:3-4); and you really need to have the Holy Spirit to be able to discern which is which.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  9. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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  10. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    There is no way that we can ever save ourselves (John 14:6).

    But we do need to have both faith and works in order to be ultimately counted as righteous (James 2:24).

    *******

    Note that possessing something eternal in itself does not require that someone will eternally keep possession of it. For example, imagine that one of the eternal precious stones of the heavenly city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:19) happened to be given to someone living now on the earth, and he kept it in his pocket. But after a few years, he got complacent about it, and sold it to a jeweler for a tremendous load of cash (cf. Hebrews 12:16-17). Does this mean that it was not eternal?

    Not if you die, proving that it is not intrinsic, but something which you either possess or do not possess.

    Amen.

    But Jesus also said things like Luke 13:5.

    Salvation can be lost (Hebrews 10:26-29).

    Regarding Galatians 1:6-9, the false, "other gospel" in verse 6 which the Galatians had fallen prey to was the idea that any Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, have to, or should even want to, keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 2:11-21, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

    There is only one true Gospel (Galatians 1:6-9), which covers both initial salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9) and ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8), both initial justification/righteousness (Romans 4:1-5) and ultimate justification/righteousness (James 2:24).
     
  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    There is a process of reasoning between Romans 2:6-8 and Romans 3:28 that causes Paul to conclude the opposite of Romans 2:6-8 in Romans 3:28.

    In Romans 2:6-8 Paul is preaching the law as a schoolmaster to bring men to Christ. From there until he gets to Romans 3:28 he preaches the gospel. The conclusion that he made from what he said about the gospel:

    Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

    Because Romans 2:6-8 is intertwined with Romans 2:13; they are saying basically the same thing. So then from Romans 2:14 to Romans 3:27 Paul preaches the gospel that leads to the conclusion of Romans 3:28 (quoted above).

    A man who is putting his trust in his deeds to save him is also putting his trust in the law to save him. But a man is eternally saved (justified) through faith in Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 10:14). Salvation begins with faith, ends with faith, and is by faith all the way through (Romans 1:17, Colossians 2:6, Galatians 3:1-6).
     
  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    You have not answered the whole of my posts; your reasoning in your response has been dealt with by my reasoning in the posts you were responding to (posts # 267 and #268).
     
  13. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Romans 2:6-8 describes the attitude of faith, that it is not factious or contentious. Anyone who has real faith in Christ does not have a hardened heart and is a seeker of the face of the Lord. This is not saying that works ultimately save us but is describing what faith in Jesus is all about: that we by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality. This is what I have said all along, that whosoever is forgiven much loves much; and that this love will not be in word or in tongue only but in deed and in truth. Patience or longsuffering is a fruit of the Spirit whom we receive by faith in Christ (Galatians 3:14, Galatians 5:22-23). Goodness is also a fruit of the Spirit. And therefore, patient continuance in well-doing will result out of the fruit of longsuffering and goodness being borne in my life.

    The point being that Martin Luther was right; that we are justified by faith alone; I will add that it must be a living faith. Therefore we are justified by a living faith alone. Works don't save (Ephesians 2:9); not initially and not ultimately. We are not saved by works; we are saved by a faith that works (Galatians 5:6).
     
  14. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Election is based on right response to God’s universal call to ALL persons, because we are all His children. Predestination refers to the way we are saved, by grace through loyalty to God, faith.

    Romans 8:29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

    How is a person saved? He is predestined to be saved by being conformed to the image of God’s Son. Why is the drink from the rock called Christ? Because Christ picked up His cross without murmuring. Israel was horrified at what following God meant: face danger voluntarily, lay down their lives, and wait for God to raise them up, thus showing the world God’s great works, which could prise them out of serving self. They didn’t believe that this was how they would enter rest, unity with God, enabled to be blessings to the world

    But the Jews and Paul still performed sacrifice until AD70. Uselessly. The Jews only accepted Judaism was sidelined when the Temple actually fell.

    Wrong. 1 Corinthians 12:13 doesn’t say Jews existed after AD70. It says the requirements are same for all to know God’s will for Christians: baptism. For example, men had to be circumcised and perform mikvah. Women only had to perform mikvah.

    God does not choose individuals to be vessels of wrath. I have shown that Esau never served his younger brother. Nations are being described.

    Romans 9:14 14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

    Also, the above says in no situation can God be shown to be unjust. God hardened Pharoah who hardened his own heart first. IOW, he was not hardened arbitrarily. To show arbitrary choice, you must show Pharoah did not choose his own wrong way, like the individual babies. And the example of arbitrary choice of Jacob and Esau was used for nations, where no one was punished for wrong choice, but nations. Even when Israel was cut off, sent into exile, the remnant, who acted right, did not bow to Baal, were preserved, returned.

    On this planet, giving your birthright to a person does not mean he served him. The person with birthright gets a bigger share, rules the extended family, etc. Esau planned to kill Jacob to prevent this. When Jacob ran away, he did the job for Esau. When he returned, he never re-claimed the birthright.

    See above.

    I said God doesn’t need to choose non elect for displaying His wrath. There are enough unrepentant people around for him to demonstrate wrath.

    Those who follow the Old Covenant are Jews. Those who follow the new Covenant are Christians. If a Christian follows the Old Covenant, he is going through the motions:

    1 Corinthians 8:8But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.

    If a Christian insists on following the Old Covenant, avoids pork for example, then he must obey all the commands:

    Galatians 5:3Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole Law.

    So who is a Jew? He is one who gets circumcised and observes kosher. If a Christian does not get circumcised and does not observe kashrut, what is he? Well they say if it does not walk like a duck and does not talk like a duck, it must not be a duck! Answer to my question: Not a Jew!

    It’s lip service, what you objected to as sufficient for salvation. Then you changed your view, saying lip service is sufficient if your hands are tied. What is it, sufficient or insufficient?

    Baptism is done by the church. Two or more persons. The person must wash the person with christ’s words, and then wash the newcomer’s feet, if he is clean, has bathed, has believed in what he gets to drink from the Rock. To make him spotless, just as Christ washes His church spotless. Through His disciples.

    You changed your requirement from “lip service plus works” to “lip service only accepted if hands are tied”.

    I mean why should he believe your words? Won’t you need something more. Like a stick that turns into a snake, some help from the finger of God? Which you can only get not by buying with money, like Simon the Sorcerer, but by abandoning money, giving up serving self?
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    No, for Romans 3:28 is referring to works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, whereas Romans 2:6-8 is referring to New Covenant works of faith.

    That is, Romans 2:6-8 is saying what many other verses say, that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

    Plus obedience (Hebrews 5:9).

    Also, regarding Hebrews 10:14, it and Hebrews 10:10 mean that the once-for-all-time offering of Jesus Christ's body on the Cross has sanctified and perfected Christians. But the perfect tense does not denote permanence. For example, if someone says in the perfect tense: "I have washed my child", this does not mean that the child has been made permanently clean. For after having been washed, the child can then wrongly employ his free will to go out and play in the mud. Similarly, spiritually-washed Christians (1 Corinthians 6:11) can wrongly employ their free will to go back to wallowing in the mire of sin without repentance (2 Peter 2:20-22; 2 Corinthians 12:20-21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27; Luke 12:45-46). Also, the "forever" in Hebrews 10:14 does not denote a permanent perfection, but means that the once-for-all-time offering of Jesus is perpetually applied in the ongoing, and eternal, process by which Christians are "being sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14, see the original Greek tense), so long as they are repenting from and confessing to God every sin that they commit (1 John 1:9,7, Hebrews 10:26-29).

    Plus works with regard to ultimate salvation (James 2:24).

    Also, regarding Galatians 3:1-6, when verses 2-3 say:

    Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    This means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, especially its physical circumcision (Galatians 6:12-13), are works of the flesh, as opposed to spiritual works of faith (Philippians 3:2-14; 1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8). For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12). Also, compare what Romans 7:5-6 says.

    Galatians 3:2-3 means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law cannot make Christians perfect. Galatians 3:2-3 is not contradicting that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b).

    Galatians 3:2-25 means that all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, should stop trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For Galatians 3:2-25 says that the works of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are works of the flesh instead of God's Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:2-3). And Galatians 3:2-25 shows that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to do the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law place themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10). And Galatians 3:2-25 says that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was only a temporary schoolmaster, which Christians, both Jews and Gentiles (so that Paul, a Jew, can say "we"), are no longer under (Galatians 3:24-25, cf. Romans 7:6).

    *******

    Not necessarily for the rest of his life, because of free will (Hebrews 3:13; 2 Peter 2:20-22).

    Not necessarily for the rest of our life, because of free will.

    For example, John 15:2a refers to real Christians, who are truly branches in the vine of Jesus Christ, wrongly employing their free will in such a way that they fail to produce good fruit, so that ultimately they are taken away from Jesus (John 15:2a), cut off from Him for their unrepentant laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

    Christians can also be ultimately cut off from Jesus Christ, cast away, and burned; they can ultimately lose their salvation, for not continuing to abide in Jesus (John 15:6), in the sense of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:12b), or unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

    But our love can grow cold (Matthew 24:12).

    But the Holy Spirit does not take away free will.

    That is, while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), He does not turn them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

    Initially (Ephesians 2:8-9), but not ultimately (James 2:24).

    That still doesn't get around the fact that works are required, ultimately (Matthew 7:21).
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    No, we humans are not all His children (John 8:42-47).

    Predestination refers to the way that we are initially saved, by faith miraculously given to us by God (Ephesians 2:8).

    The Gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13) is that we can be initially saved from hell by believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36; 1 John 2:23), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

    And the Gospel is that we can be ultimately saved from hell if we continue to believe this to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and continue to perform good works of faith to the end (Romans 2:6-8; 1 Thessalonians 1:3), and repent from every sin that we commit (Hebrews 10:26-29), and get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-11), and partake of Jesus' divine flesh and blood in the bread and wine of Communion (John 6:53; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30), and forgive everyone for everything (Matthew 6:14-15), and do all that we can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to, and peace with, everyone whom we have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26), and help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46), and provide for our families (1 Timothy 5:8), and do not blaspheme God's Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29), and do not remove words from the book of Revelation (Revelation 22:19), and do not worship the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), or worship his image, or willingly receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-12), but continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:22), and overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26).

    In 1 Corinthians 10:4 the spiritual drink which all of the Israelites drank during the Exodus (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) was the literal water in Exodus 17:6 and Nehemiah 9:15. This water was "spiritual" in the sense that it was provided by God via miraculous means, out of solid rock (Psalms 114:8, Deuteronomy 8:15).

    When 1 Corinthians 10:4 says: "that Rock was Christ", it means that the literal striking of the rock in Exodus 17:6, resulting in the outpouring of literal water, typified God the Father's literal striking of Jesus Christ the "rock" (Romans 9:33) on the Cross. For "we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God" (Isaiah 53:4). But Jesus' suffering and death on the Cross for our sins, and His rising physically from the dead on the third day, provided the way for us to be saved from hell (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and for us to receive Christ into our hearts (Ephesians 3:17) and the resulting outpouring of God's Holy Spirit like water from inside of us (John 7:38-39).

    Paul gave his only reason for doing so (1 Corinthians 9:20).

    Paul said that the letter of the Old Covenant law was abolished on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16).

    Of course they did, just as they still do. For there are still "Jews for Jesus". And many non-Christian Jews.

    Also, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus Christ Himself from heaven (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all of the still-living, unsaved, elect Jews will be ashamed, and weep, and become Christians, when they see Jesus, and realize that He truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the Church at that time, just as when Jews become Christians now they become part of the Church. For there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    And the Jews who will become Christians at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will all become part of the Church by receiving some measure of God's Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as Jewish Christians today become part of the Church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both Jewish and Gentile Christians become part of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    Of course He does, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-22).

    He did when he sold his birthright (Hebrews 12:16).

    No, Romans 9:12-13 employs the difference between Jacob and Esau (Genesis 25:23-26, Malachi 1:2b-3) only as a type, not to represent the difference between the literal, genetic nations of Israel (Jacob: Genesis 32:28) and Edom (Esau: Genesis 36:43b), but to represent the difference between, on the one hand, all elect individuals from all nations (Romans 9:6-13, Galatians 3:28-29, Galatians 4:28), both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24), and, on the other hand, all nonelect individuals from all nations, both some Jews and some Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-18, Exodus 9:12,16). Just as the individual babies in Romans 9:11-13 were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated by God before they were born, so all of the elect and nonelect individuals whom they represent were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated by God as individuals, not only before they were born, but even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).

    Keyword "rules" (de jure).

    He never lost it.

    But He miraculously gives repentance to elect people (2 Timothy 2:25), but not to nonelect people (Romans 9:18-22).

    Both Jews (Acts 22:3) and Gentiles (Romans 16:4).

    Sufficient, if the lack of works is due to your hands and feet being tied, instead of due to your wickedness and laziness (Matthew 25:26,30).

    But the thief on the cross could have done works before Luke 23:40-43 happened, but then backslid and committed theft.

    Also, publicly confessing Christ, as the thief did, is a work in itself, in addition to faith by itself (Romans 10:10).

    By any individual in the Church (Acts 8:36-39).

    No, I believe His words (Luke 14:33, Matthew 10:9-10), and how He took care of His disciples (Luke 22:35).
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +571
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    Works don't save (Ephesians 2:9 and context). Rather we are saved by a faith that works (Galatians 5:6). We are not ultimately saved by works; in fact, we are not saved by works at all; rather we are saved by a living faith in Jesus Christ. This kind of faith produces works. If someone's faith doesn't produce works, their faith is a dead faith.

    We are saved by a living faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone. The moment we put our trust in our works to save us, we are no longer trusting in Jesus to do that.

    Jesus in us will do good works through us when we have faith in Him, because He is living inside of us (Galatians 2:20). In fact, we will do greater works than He did in His human life; because He continues to live through His Holy Spirit dwelling in us: and He, by placing His love in our hearts, which is a practical love, causes us to walk in His statutes and His judgments. He doesn't violate our free will in doing so; because in order to receive the love of God through the Holy Spirit, we must surrender our wills to that love; and when we do, our wills are transformed, regenerated, and renewed so that we desire to do what God wants. In surrendering our wills, we allow God to change the very nature of our wills, which is, again, not a violation of our will because we have given God the permission to change us.

    In John 5:24 it becomes clear, to me if not to you, that everlasting life begins at the moment of faith; and that this everlasting life can never come to an end. If I were to lose everlasting life, I would not be alive anymore, I would be spiritually dead. And in dying my spiritual life would come to an end; and therefore it cannot be everlasting in such a scenario. However Jesus promised everlasting life, that we have it now if we believe.

    Again, to lose everlasting life would mean that I am no longer spiritually alive, I would have therefore died. And if I died, my spiritual life came to an end, and therefore it could not have been everlasting. Yet Jesus says that I have everlasting life (John 5:24, John 6:47, Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 10:14).

    btw, the last of the verses mentioned (Hebrews 10:14) says I am perfected for ever.

    You said:

    I would say that the words for ever have nothing to do with the perfect tense of the word "perfected' in that verse (Hebrews 10:14). When it says I am perfected for ever, the word for ever describes how long I am and will be perfected for; the length of my perfection is not defined by the perfect tense of the word "perfected" but by the word for ever.

    I would point out also that in 1 John 2:17 the word for ever is also used in speaking of how long the one who does the will of the Lord will abide.

    It is a promise that because I have beheld the Son and believed in Him (John 6:40), I will abide in Him for ever (1 John 2:17; see also 1 John 3:6); I have everlasting life. This is a guarantee for the one who receives the promise of these verses (1 John 2:17, Hebrews 10:14), that he will continue in the faith (and holiness) all the way to the end (and even into eternity). Because for ever means for ever; and no other thing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  18. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
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    Not initially, but ultimately (James 2:24).

    Same thing: works are required, ultimately (Romans 2:6-8).

    That's right (James 2:20). But it could have started out as a living faith before it died due to sheer laziness on the part of the believer.

    For example, Matthew 25:26,30 shows that even someone who was a servant of Jesus Christ can ultimately lose his salvation because of unrepentant laziness. One way that a Christian could desire to become lazy without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term), that he continues in it over time until his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12). Love for God means choosing to do what God says to do (1 John 5:3). So if one's love for God grows cold (Matthew 24:12), one will no longer choose to do what God says to do (John 14:24), meaning that one will become lazy in God's eyes (Matthew 25:26,30).

    Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is instant, in the sense of it being a one-time event, just as the birth of an infant is instant, in the sense of it being a one-time event. And God grants initial salvation by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), just as infants are born without their works. But just as an infant after he is born needs to begin to breath, and then to continue to breathe, if he is to remain alive, so a new Christian after he is born again needs to begin to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and to continue to perform them (Titus 3:8), if his faith is to remain alive (James 2:26).

    For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That is why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

    The breathing analogy (James 2:26) does not include the automatic aspect of breathing. For Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible do not include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, Christians, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2), does not mean that Christians have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.

    There is no way that our works can save us apart from Jesus (John 14:6). Indeed, we can't even do good works apart from Him (John 15:5b).

    Note that 2 Corinthians 5:9, 1 Corinthians 3:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12b, Titus 3:8, and Romans 2:6-8 show that Christians themselves must actually labor, together with God. Ultimate salvation is synergistic, because Christians can end up losing their salvation if they wrongly employ their free will to stop their laboring, to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

    Not necessarily for the rest of our lives, because our free will remains truly free (2 Peter 2:20-22).

    That is why Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that Christians, who have been sanctified by Jesus Christ's sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these Christians are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and His sacrificial blood, and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of Christians which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood does not remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

    Some Christians say that Hebrews 10:26-29 is not for Christians. But the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" Christians. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Christians need to gather together and exhort each other so that no Christian will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

    One way that a Christian could come to desire to commit a sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures Christians that there is no way that they can ever lose their salvation, even if they commit a sin without repentance.

    You can't change the nature of "free" will. If it is no longer completely free, then it's gone, and you're a robot.

    So long as we continue to obey (Hebrews 5:9).

    It can in itself. You would just no longer possess it.

    That's right. But we can lose it (Hebrews 6:4-8).

    So long as you don't wrongly employ your free will to go back to sinning, without repentance (2 Peter 2:20-22).

    Only so long as he does the will of God (Matthew 7:21).

    No, it is no promise that every true believer will continue in the faith and holiness, but a promise that they can, and that if they do, then they will live forever. But if they don't, then they will perish, as verses such as Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, and Matthew 25:26,30 so clearly show.

    OSAS has to negate free will and the many scriptures which show that salvation can be lost because of it.
     
  19. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    How salvation happens :

    In the Old Covenant

    God reveals what must be done.

    If we obey, we will receive blessings. If not we will be cursed.

    We fail because the list is big and we must do everything perfectly.

    Some requirements are so strict they cannot be done, like how can we stop feeling, coveting? And we never knew feeling jealous was wrong, but because the Law points it out, we die, stop growing, whereas when we never knew, we were alive. Ironically, what was supposed to give life brought death.

    However, there is provision in the covenant for mercy. So we are not cursed, destroyed, but the covenant protects us till Christ is sent.

    So the covenant is not difficult to follow. We should not ask where is Christ, who will bring Him down from heaven, to forgive us, because the means is available on our lips, Through asking, we will be forgiven.

    However if we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven ourselves.

    In summary, the Old Covenant is of works of the Law, rewarded by blessings on doing. The first party must do all the works, minor as well as important, sacrifice and fast as well as observe justice, mercy and loyalty, in order not to be cursed. This is the work which receives wages, like an employment contract, which the Jews, as hired hands, were to do.

    Elizabeth and Zechariah were righteous because they observed justice mercy and loyalty as well sacrifice and fasts. However, the Pharisees reasoned the opposite: they felt that since Abraham’s seed was promised blessings unconditionally, all they needed to do was the things that identified them as the seed, forming halakhah, replacing God’s Word with their own tradition.

    In the New Covenant.

    God reveals what we must do, have mercy.

    If we obey, we will be reckoned as word keepers. If not we will be seen as lawbreakers.

    As former sinners, we may have habits that are hard to break. Maybe we don’t like poor people, and treat them unfavorably. We must pray to God to take away this thorn in our side. God is faithful, in that if we pray, He will take away this thorn and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. To prevent us from being proud, He will allow some thorns to remain. However, we need to be pure in order to see God, be united with in order to be blessings to the world, the eternal life, life with a purpose, life with treasure that lasts. Since we persevere, keep asking God for cleansing, we remain in His favour, receive His grace. God says this is sufficient, to see Him, to be blessings to the world. This is how grace is different from works, because it is a relationship, a bond that depends on faith, loyalty, not work. Loyalty is described as belief plus nothing, or belief plus acting out that belief if the situation requires and permits. Works is described as labour in return for blessings, eternal life. The result of loyalty is gifts, of works is wages.

    In summary, the New Covenant saves, whilst the Old does not, in the sense that it cannot perfect us, enable us to receive the promise made to Abraham, be blessings to the world, live the life with treasure that lasts, receive eternal life. If the Old Covenant could have made perfect, Christ would not have been sent, and He would have died for nothing.

    God’s children are those without sin:

    Mark 10:14But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

    Matthew 18:10"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

    Acts 17:28‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘- We are His offspring.’


    It’s only later that we become born from below:

    Genesis 4:6Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
    The text does not teach that believers are saved by a gift of faith. Greek experts like Mounce and Wallace agree that “it” is neuter and qualifies a neuter antecedent, the phrase “grace you have been saved, through faith” ie. a grace through loyalty” type salvation. IOW, Gentiles were boasting they had been saved by being more righteous than Jews. Elsewhere, Paul says, “There are no righteous, not even a single kind of nation. All have sinned, both Jew and Gentile”. Inclusion is a gift, not a reward. Jews were included even though they were the most ignoble of nations, Gentiles were included because Jews were prepared for destruction, no more Jews existed, God had to go into the highways and the byways to find people to attend the wedding.
    We are saved when we see God’s ability to give us a better life serving Him than serving self interest: this is what is meant by “drank Christ from the Rock”. We leave serving self and promise to serve God. This allows us to be baptised, the water signifying the closing of the sea behind us. It gives access to testing, proving of our loyalty, when the Holy Spirit leads us out into the wilderness where we have no provision for survival, except God. If we complain, want to return back to Egypt, we have failed. If we have a different spirit like Joshua and Caleb, we will enter Rest.
    Proving a Jew is identified by offering sacrifice. Which is now not an option, since AD70.
    So the Jews were following a useless Covenant.
    No sacrifice, no Judaism.
    No Jews exist outside of the Covenant. They are cut off, living as Gentiles amongst Gentiles
    The entire chapter of Romans 9 deals with Israel. Since Israel, not individuals, was prepared for destruction, was made a vessel of dishonor.
    Esau never served Jacob. Edom however did serve the nation of Israel
    The entire chapter of Romans 9 deals with Israel. Since Israel was prepared for destruction, was made a vessel of dishonor.
    Esau never served Jacob. Edom however did serve the nation of Israel.
    He ran away. When he came back, he never received it.
    2 Timothy 2:25Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

    Some like Peter will repent, others like Judas will not, even though Christ chose him. The entire chapter of Romans 9 deals with Israel. Since Israel, not individuals, was prepared for destruction, was made a vessel of dishonor.
    No Jews outside of the Covenant, unclean Jews are an oxymoron. They are cut off, living as Gentiles amongst Gentiles.
    So you admit you changed your view that lip service is never enough. Lip service IS enough, in certain cases.
    No proof of this.
    Lip service. Which you claimed was insufficient.
    Philip was clean, filled with the Spirit.
    You stopped serving mammon, threw away all he gave you, like the Jews threw away all their idols, and followed Christ, began to pick up the Cross everyday, depended on God to resurrect you, with proof in marks, so that people would leave Egypt? Give details.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  20. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +571
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    To @Bible2+:

    We are connected to the vine through faith in Jesus Christ, not by the bearing of good fruit. The bearing of good fruit happens because we are connected to the vine.

    Our salvation is in that we are connected to the vine. Bearing good fruit tells the husbandman that we are connected properly to the vine; and therefore He does not take us away as a branch so that we are burned.

    However the reality is that it is not the good fruit that saves us, but the fact that we are connected to the vine, which results in our bearing of good fruit.

    If we do not bear good fruit it is because we are not connected properly to the vine. And, if we do not bear good fruit we are taken away as a branch and are burned. But the root cause of why we would be taken away as a branch and are burned would be that we were not connected properly to the vine. The bearing of good fruit, or lack thereof, is only the evidence of the underlying reality of whether we are connected to the vine or not.

    Therefore salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ and the works that we do are the evidence of the underlying reality of our salvation in Him (through faith).

    I am not connected to the vine because I bear good fruit; it is the other way around.

    The above words are based on a meditation on and thinking about the implications of what it says in John chapter 15; alongside of scriptures that tell us that we are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

    So I will agree with @Bible2+ and say that in one sense, we are ultimately saved in that we have good works. But I think everyone can see in the meditation that there are no good works apart from faith; and that the root cause of them is faith: and that the true reason for being saved from condemnation has to do with the fact that the branch is connected to the vine (through faith); and that the bearing of good fruit (the doing of good works) is only the result of and evidence of a living and saving faith.

    Therefore the aim of my Christian endeavor is to cultivate faith alone in Jesus Christ, which means being connected to the vine; and in the analogy the branch will bear fruit for the sole reason that it is connected to the vine; not because it is endeavoring to bear good fruit (or to do good works). In a healthy branch, the branch bears good fruit because the sap of the vine is flowing from the vine to the tip of the branch and the substance of the sap of the vine is being converted by natural processes into the fruit that is produced.

    I have never seen a tree going, "Aaaargggghhhhh! I've gotta bear fruit!"

    What I am saying is that true Christianity has nothing to do with self-effort, and everything to do with a relationship with Jesus. Because we are connected to Him (are in Him), we bear the fruit of the Spirit and do good works.

    If we do not bear good fruit and do good works it is because our faith is a dead faith. And this statement is in response to the concept put forth by @Bible2+ that we can have faith in Jesus and not have good works be the result of that faith. I say, Amen, that is so: but in the case of someone who has faith but no works it is not a living and saving faith; and therefore I declare to you that living and saving faith will always produce good works if given the opportunity. And therefore we are not ultimately saved by works, we are saved by grace through a living and saving faith both initially and ultimately; and that this faith will produce good works if given the opportunity. And if the opportunity does not arise (i.e. it is a deathbed conversion), their faith alone in Jesus will be sufficient to save them; because they are not ultimately saved by the bearing of good fruit (the doing of good works) but by being connected to the vine (through simple faith in Jesus and what He did for them on the Cross...see 2 Corinthians 11:3-4).
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
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