• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

What is the Gospel?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    Wow! Such a bitter and venomous post!

    Luke 11:1It happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples.”

    2And He said to them, “When you pray, say:
    ‘Father, hallowed be Your name.
    Your kingdom come.

    3Give us each day our daily bread.

    4‘And forgive us our sins,
    For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
    And lead us not into temptation.’”

    5Then He said to them, “Suppose one of you has a friend, and goes to him at midnight and says to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; 6for a friend of mine has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’;7and from inside he answers and says, ‘Do not bother me; the door has already been shut and my children and I are in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything.8“I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him anythingbecause he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will get up and give him as much as he needs.

    9“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10“For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. 11Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12“Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

    Faulty logic in your post.

    The Israelites received revelation, water from the Rock, bread from Heaven, without a Bible. So revelation does not depend on a Bible.

    Your Bible used a faulty translation of imputation instead of reputation. Proof available to anyone who isn't controlled by a "father". Maybe Becca will teach you how to avoid drinking the Koolade. Or Garrett will advise you how to stop living with your parents. IOW, help your posts become more independent of others. TV is so educational. I heard they even have advice columns.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
  2. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    Christian Gentiles become one flock with Christian Jews under the New Covenant (John 10:16b).

    Christian Jews are clean (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    Only toward the elect (Romans 9:11-24).

    Only some of its branches (Romans 11:17).

    Romans 11:1,14 refers to genetic Jews.

    Of course (Matthew 7:21).

    His last deed was to publicly defend and acknowledge Christ (Luke 23:40-42).

    *******

    But it must be checked against the Bible (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4).
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    It does, with regard to ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8).

    Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" for them to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" for them to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

    For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that Initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

    Also, in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

    No, for it is impossible for people to believe, or to continue to believe, all of the right things, apart from God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, Hebrews 12:2), and some measure of His Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Also, it is impossible for people to perform, or to continue to perform, all of the right actions as Christians, apart from God making it possible for Christians to do that (Philippians 2:12-13, John 15:4-5). And it is impossible for people to repent, if a sin is committed, apart from God making it possible to repent (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18, Romans 8:13). So even if Christians continue to believe, act, and repent as they ought to, they must stay so humble that they never give themselves any credit or glory (Luke 17:10, Galatians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 1:29,31). But when Jesus Christ judges the Church at His future, Second Coming, He will give obedient Christians some credit (Matthew 25:21). Also, God does glorify Christians (Romans 8:30).
     
  4. Blood Bought 1953

    Blood Bought 1953 Ned Flander’s Buddy

    +1,449
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Justbyfaith......ignore your blind critics.....when you cast pearls before swine this is just how Jesus said it would be......they attack what you say and then they attack you......God bless you, you are a strong man of faith
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  5. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    Hebrews 9:15Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16In the case ofa will, it is necessary to establishthe death of the one who made it,17because a will does not take effect until the one who made it has died; it cannot be executed while he is still alive.

    The New Covenant came into force only after Christ died. The text says He had sheep of another flock even when He was alive. The group, the People of God, was always composed of people of faith. Before Sinai, all Gentile, After Sinai, of both Jew and Gentile. After the AD70, all Gentile.

    To be a practicing/functional Jew you need the Temple. A Jew without the Temple is unclean, must live outside the camp, like a Gentile, amongst Gentiles. To re-enter the Camp, he must make Atonement.

    Romans 2:25For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.



    Jonah 3:10When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.


    1 Kings 9:6But if indeed you or your sons turn away from following Me and do not keep the commandments and statutes I have set before you, and if you go off to serve and worship other gods, 7then I will cut off Israel from the land I have given them, and this temple that I have sanctified for My name I will banish from My presence. Then Israel will become an object of scorn and ridicule among all peoples. 8And this temple will now become a heap of rubble. All who pass by it will be appalled and will hiss and say, ‘Why has the LORD done such a thing to this land and to this temple?

    In seeking a righteousness of their own, needing people to convert to Judaism, instead of seeking the righteousness of God, rightly teaching Rest is found only in the Jerusalem from above, Christ, they were serving Baal, self interest.

    Romans 11:1 1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    It doesn´t say Paul was accepted as a Jew. Just as a lawyer is disbarred or a doctor loses his licence, Paul lost his Jewish status when he could not observe the Law, perform Temple sacrifice. Paul says he is an Israelite, to explain his concern for Israel.

    Romans 2:14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.


    These are defrocked priests. Also known as NOT priests.

    The thief never did anything but give lip service.

    The last I heard the people drank from the Rock, received revelation, but they didn´t nedd to check it against any Bible.
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    So I had it right that you are a Jehovah's Witness. Because when I asked if that were the case, you did not deny it.

    btw, the post about Becca and Garret was an attempt to be salt and light concerning the culture of this world, which is what we are to be as believers (and I watch the program with my wife because she enjoys it).

    First you tell me that my post was venomous (when all I was trying to do was to keep you from eating poisonous food), and then you begin to spew venom. Take the beam out of your own eye, friend.

    In response to your defense of the NeWT: I suppose that if you pray over food that has poison in it, God is certainly able to cause the poison to not have an effect on you, because you prayed. God is in the business of working miracles. However, miracles by nature are supernatural events that happen far and few between. So if you expect God to take the poisonous element out of your translation, you had better have faith for a miracle every time that you read it. How much better to read the kjv, which is accepted as authoritative by your cult; but which is also accepted by mainstream Christianity as inspired? If you want to win Christians to what you believe, ought you not to read our Bible so you have an accurate understanding of what we believe and can have a more intelligent conversation with us? If I had a copy of the NeWT, I would read it for the purpose of refuting what it says to the lot of you. Now of course I would read my kjv first and if I saw anything that refuted your theology, I would see if it also refuted it in the NeWT.

    Here's food for thought: In Psalms 50:1 what does it say in the NeWT? In my kjv it says that the mighty God is the LORD. Does your NeWT translate "the LORD" as Jehovah in that verse? If not, then your scholars are translating the scriptures inconsistently. If so, then Jehovah is the mighty God; even the mighty God is Jehovah. So how does that apply to the Jehovah's Witnesses understanding of Isaiah 9:6?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    @Bible2+:

    I hold fast to the understanding that salvation is by grace through faith, even ultimate salvation; and that works have nothing to do with being salvational.

    For in Ezekiel 36:25-27 it tells us that we have been given a new heart and a new spirit and that as the result we will walk in His statutes and in His judgments.

    I testify that in my own life, I desire to obey the Lord, not because I have to in order to obtain ultimate salvation; but because I know that I am forgiven and that He has required nothing of me but faith in His shed blood and a trust in His Person as being the Good Shepherd of my soul.

    Motivation is everything.

    I obey my Lord and Saviour out of thankfulness to Him for His saving work in my life. Because I am forgiven much, I love Him much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19). And because I love Him much, I love my brothers and sisters in Christ (1 John 4:20-21, 1 John 5:1-3) and my enemies also (Matthew 5:43-48). And this love that is shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5) cannot be in word or in tongue only, but is in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

    If I were attempting to earn my ultimate salvation through good works, my reward would not be rendered as grace but as debt (Romans 4:4). And God offers salvation to all men as a free gift (Romans 5:15-17, Romans 6:23); He will not owe the kingdom of heaven to any man.

    Salvation is a free gift (Romans 5:15-17). Salvation is from hell; and if I have been given salvation I am saved from hell. Therefore if I am saved initially, I am still not going to go to hell if I fail to do good works: for what of the man who receives Christ on his deathbed, even has a genuine conversion, but no good works can follow because he dies the next day? Therefore if I convert on my deathbed and do not do good works I do not go to hell. And if you extend that to the person who does not accept Christ on their deathbed, we are not ultimately saved by our good works. Is the doctrine of salvation excepted when it comes to deathbed conversions? I don't think so. Therefore if the doctrine of salvation is true of everyone across the board, and the deathbed conversion goes to heaven apart from works, the same also applies to the one who does not have a deathbed conversion.

    When a man puts his trust in his works to save him, whether initially or ultimately, he is not putting his trust in the right thing. The only faith that saves is faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross. If I put my trust in my works to any extent, I have put my trust elsewhere, on what I can do to save myself; I am no longer trusting in Christ and His finished work. And therefore I would not be saved, because I am not putting my faith and trust in Christ and what He did for me on the Cross.

    I hope you can see how serious of a thing this is.

    Faith in Jesus produces good works. If someone says he has faith in Jesus and doesn't do good works the conclusion made by man is that his or her faith isn't genuine. This is not to say that they are saved by their works to any extent. It is to say that we are saved through a living faith in Jesus, and that a faith without works is not a living faith.

    Therefore it is not that I must do good works to maintain my salvation or faith. It is that, if my faith is genuine, it will produce good works. If my faith is not producing good works, it is because it isn't genuine. Not: I must add works to my faith and thereby save myself (ultimately) through my works. Not: initial salvation is by grace through faith, but ultimate salvation is by works.

    Salvation is through faith alone in Jesus Christ, both initially and ultimately (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    Works arise from a genuine faith; but they don't save us in the slightest. It is a genuine faith that saves us. We have a free will, most definitely; and this is exercised either to have faith or to not have faith. If we do not have faith, good works will not follow. If we have genuine faith, they will. The lack of good works is evidence that genuine faith is not present. I think you want to contend that a genuine believer might not do good works given the opportunity, but this is not the case (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5, 1 John 3:17-18).

    The point I want to make is that the motivation for doing good works changes if you think that you are ultimately saved by them. Because now you are earning your ultimate salvation from God, He owes it to you now (Romans 4:4). However that is not the way God does things. Again I say that He offers to us salvation as a free gift (Romans 5:15-17, Romans 6:23). If we do not accept it as a gift but insist that we will earn it, we are not submitting to the righteousness of God, we are seeking to establish our own righteousness. And this is a no-no (Romans 10:1-4, Romans 9:30-33).
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  8. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    What about the imputation error in the kjv? Take the beam out of your own eye first!!! Back atcha!!!

    And what about the command not to call anyone teacher?

    Are you more loyal to your denomination than to Scripture?

    Btw, is your wife a believer?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  9. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    Where did I call anyone teacher, other than the Holy Spirit?

    If or when my denomination or pastor says something that is not scriptural, I believe the scripture over their teaching.

    Yes, my wife is a believer (and if I ever said differently, our prayers would be hindered, 1 Peter 3:7).

    There is no imputation error in the kjv. And what I was referring to, in telling you to take the beam out of your eye, was your judgment that I was somehow being venomous in saying that the NeWT is a bible that will feed you poison.

    And how you then responded with the venomous statements that because I had care and concern for people who are on television, I was somehow not right with the Lord. You said very sarcastically:
    No, I am not living with my parents, I don't usually drink Koolade (and when I do it is not the "Jim Jones" type, if that is what you were implying); and my posts normally are independent of others (while I appreciate the support that comes from certain brothers and sisters). I also do not go to advice columns for guidance, as the word of the Lord and the Holy Spirit are my guide.

    So, you don't watch television. That makes you the weaker brother according to Romans 14 concerning that, if you were a brother at all (and since you are a JW as far as I can tell, that makes you not a brother in Christ impaho; since their denial of Christ's Deity will place anyone outside the kingdom).

    So then, before you tell me not to make venomous statements, take your own advice; because my statement was intended to help you be free of eating and drinking the poison that the Watchtower is feeding you; whereas your statements were simply attacks on who I am as a person. A proverbial beam in your eye compared to the mote in mine.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  10. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    Here's food for thought: In Psalms 50:1 what does it say in the NeWT? In my kjv it says that the mighty God is the LORD. Does your NeWT translate "the LORD" as Jehovah in that verse? If not, then your scholars are translating the scriptures inconsistently. If so, then Jehovah is the mighty God; even the mighty God is Jehovah. So how does that apply to the Jehovah's Witnesses understanding of Isaiah 9:6? (are you going to answer this question or are you going to ignore it because it refutes what your organization teaches?)
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  11. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    You can't escape it says impute when the original says repute.
     
  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    The concept of impute is there in Romans 4:5 without the word impute even being used. Therefore to say that righteousness is imputed is not a faulty theological statement (and therefore the kjv is accurate in its estimation).
     
  13. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    Was Abraham's belief righteous or was the righteousness borrowed from God?
     
  14. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    In Judaism, different rabbis (fathers, like Hillel, Shimei etc.)) taught different requirements (halakah). The Corinthians were forming rabbinical schools like the Jews: Apollos, Cephas etc. Disobeying Jesus’s command not to call anyone “rabbi”. Christians have one Teacher, one Father:

    Matthew 23:6“They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. 8“But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9“Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10“Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11“But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12“Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

    You’re guilty of the same sin as the Corinthians by “belonging” to a denomination or having a pastor.

    The mark of a believer is one who does not get involved in civilian matters:

    2 Timothy:3Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier.

    1 Corinthians 5:11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12What business of mine is it to judge thoseoutside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside.


    Thus saith the person whose teacher is his denomination or pastor, rather than the only Teacher, in Heaven.

    I’m shocked you would expose to all the fact that you are involved in worldly affairs without knowing the error, and I suppose I can only blame it on ignorance, immaturity, from eating of milk food, just as I blame it for the way you study Scripture.

    Your posts exhibit all the signs of tribalism, groupism, cliquishness, symptoms of calling a man sticking with his “rabbi”, “father”. In the Dark Ages, the church used to rebuke members from reasoning, questioning, commanding them to just believe. It’s called fideism. When I point out that there is an error in using the word “impute”, you don’t use reason to find out if I’m right . You just insist on sticking to what your “rabbi” told you.

    I’m too busy gathering unrighteous mammon to make friends with those who have given up everything , who stopped serving Baal to serve God, the revelation of God’s will from the Holy Spirit, which I learnt from asking for daily bread. I normally post here taking a break from my sleeping time.

    I’ve already proved with sound reasoning and Biblical support that your views are wrong. If you continue to believe those wrong views, it only means you are the one continuing with poison.
     
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    That's right.

    But John 10:16b referred to how it would be under the New Covenant.

    No, for 1 Corinthians 12:13 is still in effect.

    Not to be a Christian Jew (Hebrews 7:18-19).

    God's double predestination (Romans 9:11-24) of who will get initially saved at some point during his lifetime (Acts 13:48b) and who will never get saved (John 8:42-47), does not contradict that God can relent from a specific, temporal judgment, such as in Jonah 3:10. Nor does double predestination strip God of any part of His character, but is based on His characteristics of omnipotent sovereignty (Romans 9:20-24) and omniscient foreknowledge (Isaiah 46:10, Revelation 1:1, Acts 2:23).

    God does not love everyone, for He hates nonelect individuals (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens nonelect individuals in their sinfulness instead of showing them His mercy (Romans 9:18), because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them, or anyone else, to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All individuals will justly be held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of individuals.

    God created nonelect individuals to be vessels of His wrath instead of vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect individuals to be vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

    God wants these aspects of His character to be known both to humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath will not be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels, and all non-Christians of all times, are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and Christians and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the New Earth (as in a new surface for the earth) to witness the suffering of non-Christians in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of His wrath.

    Romans 11:1 shows that the apostle Paul is an Israelite even as he is a Christian, just as Acts 22:3 shows that he is a Jew even as he is a Christian.

    Before Jesus died. And while his hands and feet were nailed to a cross.

    Also, the case of the thief on the cross is usually brought up by those who want baptism to not be necessary for ultimate salvation.

    But the thief on the cross could have been baptized (and done other works) before Luke 23:42-43 happened, but then backslid and committed theft. Also, baptism is only a New Testament/New Covenant requirement for ultimate salvation (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-11, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12). And the New Covenant was not put into legal effect until Jesus Christ died (Hebrews 9:16-17, Matthew 26:28). But Luke 23:42-43 happened before Jesus died; and so baptism was not yet a requirement for ultimate salvation. But now that Jesus' death is past, Christians have to obey all of His New Covenant commandments (John 14:21-24) if they want to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8), including His commandment that every Christian get baptized (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38), and by immersion/"burial" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12; cf. 1 Corinthians 14:37). Also, a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), which includes unrepentant sins of omission (James 4:17), which would include refusing without repentance to get baptized, and by immersion.

    If a person came up to Biblical Christians today and said that he had written a book inspired by God, they would have to check its teachings against what God's Word the Bible already says (Acts 17:11), and make sure that it did not contradict anything in the Bible (2 Timothy 4:2-4). Also, even if it did not contradict anything in the Bible, its teachings would still have to pass the test of Biblical Christians being able to, as it were, recognize the voice of Jesus Christ in what the book was saying (John 10:27). Biblical Christians are able to recognize if something said is from Jesus (John 10:4), or only from "a stranger", and they will not follow the latter (John 10:5).
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    Note that works are salvational, with regard to ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8).

    Not necessarily for the rest of our lives, because of free will (2 Peter 2:20-22).

    He also requires obedience if we want to be saved ultimately (Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21).

    Christians obey God out of both their love for Him (John 14:21-24; 1 John 5:3), and their fear of Him (Romans 11:20-22; 1 Peter 1:17, Philippians 2:12), their fear of ultimately losing their salvation from hell if they wrongly employ their free will to do something like committing unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or if they become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

    In John 14:21,23, when Jesus Christ talks about Christians needing to obey Him if they want God to love them (see also what John 15:10 says), He is referring to how Christians must keep themselves in the love of God (Jude 1:21), and continue in His goodness (Romans 11:22), by continuing in faithful obedience to him, if they want to be saved from hell in the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9).

    Not with regard to those who are already Christians, for a master does not go into debt to his servant (Luke 17:10).

    What Christians are saved from, whether initially or ultimately, is indeed eternal suffering in hell (Matthew 25:41,46). Initial salvation does save Christians from hell, initially. For an initially-saved Christian will end up in hell ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will subsequent to his initial salvation in such a way that he ultimately loses his salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8).

    Only if that is without repentance (Luke 13:5).

    So long as the lack of good works was due to physical disability, instead of wickedness and laziness (Matthew 25:26,30).

    But even someone saved on his deathbed will want to do good works, such as praying and the giving of alms, which are highly prized by God (Acts 10:4).

    That's right, if you mean works alone, apart from abiding in Jesus (John 15:5).

    And an ultimately-saving faith must also have works (James 2:24).

    Not automatically, because of free will. That's why Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8).

    Of course it is (James 4:17).

    For regarding the verses you referenced, note that our love can grow cold (Matthew 24:12).
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
  17. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    The word is “have” present tense. Jesus had sheep of another flock even when he was alive, so it means the People of God has a Gentile component even before the New Covenant.

    The verse does not say that the destruction of the Temple did not make Judaism null and void. It only says that people who came from different backgrounds were all admitted in the same way. In contrast with Judaism, which had different ways for male and female converts.

    That text does not say Christian Jews exist. It only says the new Covenant is superior to the Old.

    The text deals with the nations of Jacob and Esau: Esau as an individual never served his younger brother Jacob, but Edom was indeed enslaved by Israel.

    The vessel of wrath is Israel, not individuals.

    God’s wrath can be exhibited on those who do not change.

    1 Corinthians 9:20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

    This proves Paul did not remain a Jew. A person who is a Jew does not have to do anything to become a Jew. If he does, it means he is not a Jew.

    So all he did was lip service. He never did any good works that you claimed were required for salvation.

    Baptism is a process. Israel saw God’s great works and were delivered from the fear of leaving Egypt, a metaphor for the insecurity leading to serving Baal, doing things that served self. They promised to live lives that ignored living for self, serving Baal, to serving God, laying down their lives for others. When given opportunities to prove their turning over a new leaf, they exhibited unbelief, and God swore they would not enter Rest, the state when they could serve God perfectly. So the process is necessary to be saved. I don’t know what you view baptism as.

    The thief was led into Christ by witnessing the great works of Christ. He determined to serve God instead of self. He did not waver. So perseverance is what saves, not preservation. God’s grace is given on remaining loyal, and God’s grace is sufficient for us to be allowed to enter Rest, the state where one can serve God perfectly. Adam was in the Kingdom, fell away from the Kingdom. In the second Adam, we are again in the Kingdom, able to be blessings to the world, rescuing it and subduing it, making it complete, for God.

    That’s not the model. If God was to tell me to share the gospel, I would tell Him I wasn’t worthy. Only those who have left Egypt, like Moses, Jesus, are called:

    Hosea 11:1When Israel was a youth I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son.

    Since I am not a disciple who has left serving self to serve God, I can only ask for terms of peace: using unrighteous gains from serving self to make friends with those in the Kingdom, so that when my gains run out, I will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

    Even if I have left Egypt, I should not be like israel who complained and wanted to turn back, but be like Moses, who did not murmur, but was loyal under deprivation from the luxuries of Pharoah’s palace, in Midian.

    Even if I were like Moses, i would still protest: why would someone under the insecurity of being dependent on serving self leave that situation, serving self, to depend on God? If God gave me the ability to manifest His great works, I would then surely venture out to deliver the person God had said was crying out for rescue from the oppression of Egypt. I would try not to make the mistake Moses made, pride from being empowered to manifest great works, but strive to be like Jesus who refused to indulge in pride when asked to leap from a high place to manifest God’s unity with Him, but rejoice instead that my name had been written in the Book of Life and do only what the Father commanded, speak what the Father spoke.

    What sets truth apart from falsehood is if we are saying good things about Christ, and not good things about ourselves, the sin of those who heard the dreaded words, “Go far from me, I never was in unity with you”.
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    It is not a sin to sit under a pastor/teacher whose job is to edify the flock of God. Ephesians 4:11-12 says, And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

    And in the course of this thread, it was me who originally said to you that you do not need a human scholar or teacher to teach you if you have the unction and anointing of the Holy Ghost.

    However, this is not to say that God does not give to certain people spiritual gifts, such as teaching. We are allowed to have other people minister to us according to the spiritual gifts that God has given to them.

    In all cases we are to be Bereans (Acts of the Apostles 17:11) and test everything by the word of God.

    As I test the things that you have said, I find that they are found wanting; you do not preach sound biblical doctrine but depart from it in that you hold to salvation by works theology along with @Bible2+. I am certain that as a JW, you also deny the sound doctrine of the Deity of Jesus Christ: and if you understand the implications of this apart from changing the word of God from the kjv to the NeWT, you would see that in denying that Jesus is the Great I AM, you will die in your sins (John 8:24) if you continue to do so to the day of your death.

    I certainly believe that the 144,000 are Jewish people from every tribe of Israel except Dan: 12,000 from each tribe (Revelation 7:1-8). The authority of the Watchtower is based on the Watchtower organization being the 144,000. However this does not stand according to scripture (Revelation 7:1-8).

    You have not shown that my views are wrong to any extent. For you do not back up your statements with the Bible, but with the words of fallible human scholars. I have shown that it is important that we not put our trust in the words of men (Psalms 118:8-9); but to check everything by the word of God (Acts of the Apostles 17:11).
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
  19. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    Romans 2:6-8 does not show that works are salvational.

    For in scripture, those who are saved will stand before the bema seat of Christ, where they will be rewarded for righteous deeds; while those who are not saved will stand before the Great White Throne, where they will be condemned for their evil deeds.

    Those who are redeemed will not be saved by their good deeds but will be rewarded for them; as they were saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

    Those who are not redeemed are condemned already because they have not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God and will be condemned for their unbelief: for because of their unbelief they have not availed themselves of the finished work of Christ on the Cross and therefore His death in their place and on their behalf will not be applied to them; therefore the evil deeds that they committed are not forgiven and they will be condemned for their evil deeds, and the fact that they were not forgiven of them through faith in the shed blood of Christ on the Cross.

    Those who are redeemed are forgiven of their evil deeds and nothing can be added to their salvation as concerning what saves them; for as concerning what saves them grace and works are mutually exclusive (Romans 11:5-6 (kjv)). And since they are saved by grace, they are not saved by their works in any fashion; otherwise grace is no more grace. And if they are saved by works, they are not saved by grace in any fashion; otherwise work is no more work.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
  20. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    That's all I'm saying.

    Yet the will of someone who is born again is to do good works, even according to your own words.

    1 John 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
     
Loading...