• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

What is the Gospel?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    That doesn't mean you are supposed to ignore proper biblical hermeneutics in your interpretation of what the scripture says.
     
  2. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    Matthew 26:28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

    Blessings must always be linked with the promise made to Abraham, that the world would be blessed through his seed. Forgiveness of the sins of Godś People makes them an unblemished sacrifice, an acceptable offering to the Lord. Without the shedding of blood no sin can be taken away. As we pick up the cross daily, the sins of the world are taken away. This is Eternal Life, a life with substance, Chayei Olam, the life of the world to come. It is not hell we are saved from, but pointless living.

    Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

    It´s impossible to believe that God is the God of the covenanted only (by circumcision or baptism) when the text says God is also the God of the uncovenanted, as shown by His finding Abraham righteous even before he was circumcised. Circumcision and baptism give access to water from the Rock, revelation, sight, but the text also says blessed are those who have not seen, and still believe.

    That was a rhetorical statement. I know He already has. I was only repeating the text.

    The Household of God is not the state of Israel, because not all Israel is Israel, only those who have not bowed a knee to Baal. The real Israel is identified by faith, loyalty to God, of whom Abraham is the father.

    Israel is neither the vine nor the olive tree, but natural branches. Gentiles are wild branches, originally untended, without covenant. The Covenant is made with the vine, the olive tree, the Body of Christ, those who have drank from the Rock and are clean, because not everyone has bathed, is clean.

    To be more specific. Obedience is repentance. Meta noia. Change of mind, from serving selfish interest to serving God. Israel was reluctant to leave Egypt, their god was their bellies. Judas was reluctant to leave the world, his god was his purse. Ditto Simon Magus, Ananias and sapphira.

    Eating His flesh and drinking His blood is to partake of the communion in agreement to His command to live like Christ, because the life is in the blood.

    Jews are preserved by consecration at the Atonement, because during the year they found it impossible to follow the Law perfectly. Without a Temple, they are unclean and must stay outside the tabernacle, are out of Covenant. Therefore there are no Covenanted Jews after AD 70. An unconsecrated Jew is not a separated Jew devoted to the Lord, he is a Gentile, living amongst Gentiles. Jew means a praiser of god. How can he praise God in a strange land?

    With the New Covenant in force, in which Gentiles are admitted, Jews can therefore enter as Gentiles, through faith, like Abraham, without any works of the Law. If they try to enter through works of the Law, becoming or remaining Jews, teaching circumcision, dietary restrictions etc., Christ is of no benefit to them.

    The term Judaiser is linked to practitioners of the Old Covenant, which is what Law means.

    If a person is baptised in the name of Christ, he is not performing a work of the Law, the Old Covenant. It is faith, loyalty, public promise to serve God, the means of salvation specified in the New Covenant, to be followed by acts that confirm this promise. Study how works work, and how loyalty works.

    Hint: think of how the inheritance of a son, and of how the wages given to workers, are differently obtained.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
  3. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    This is the difference between how you and I try to post rebuttals.

    wordkeeper: The change of the composition of the household of God from Jews to Jews plus Gentiles (IOW, the whole world) was a cataclysmic event. Had God's word failed? It caused two negative reactions which Paul wanted to correct: the claim from the Gentiles that they had worked, performed more righteously than Jews, and the claim from the Jews that God's word indeed never fails, so it was logical that Gentiles must become Jews in order to receive God's blessings. A very important issue, tackled by Paul in Romans, Ephesians, Titus etc.

    In Ephesians, Paul tells Gentile readers that they have been saved by a "salvation by grace through faith type" of salvation, and it was a gift, given by God making the Jews a vessel of dishonor, not because the Gentiles had worked, performed more righteously.

    Greek scholars like Mounce, Wallace etc, people who are spiritual, but also scholarly and have defeated liberal scholars with scholarly rebuttals, agree that the gift is the neuter phrase "salvation by grace though faith".


    justbyfaith: You are wrong!!!! Nyah!Nyah! My pastor is stronger than your scholars.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
  4. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    That's right, with regard to ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9). But initial salvation is apart from works (Titus 3:5).

    *******

    Both (1 Timothy 4:8b)

    Also, there are two literal hells, one temporal and one eternal. The temporal hell, called Hades in Greek (Luke 16:23), and Sheol in Hebrew (Psalms 86:13), is where the souls of non-Christians go when they die, and where they are tormented by flame (Luke 16:23-24). Before Jesus Christ's first coming, Hades was also where the souls of saved people went when they died. But the part of Hades for the saved was a place of comfort (Luke 16:25).

    After Jesus Christ fulfilled the Gospel by suffering and dying on the Cross for our sins, and rising physically from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), He went down into Hades and preached the fulfillment of the Gospel to the souls there (1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:6), and then drew the souls of obedient believers there who had died in faith (Hebrews 11:13) up with Him when He ascended into heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 12:22-24). Since then, the souls of obedient Christians go directly into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11).

    At Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, He will bring with Him from heaven the souls of all obedient Christians who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14), and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53). They will then physically reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), all non-Christians of all times will be physically resurrected out of Hades and judged (Revelation 20:12-13), and then cast into the eternal hell, called the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:8), where they will be tormented along with Satan and his fallen angels forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11). This eternal hell is also called Gehenna in Greek (Luke 12:5, Mark 9:45-46), and Tophet in Hebrew (Isaiah 30:33).

    Tophet was also the name of a place in ancient times called the valley of Hinnom (2 Kings 23:10), just outside the southern wall of Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8). "Gehenna" literally means "the valley (ge) of Hinnom". Just as the ancient Tophet/Gehenna was outside the wall of ancient Jerusalem, so the eternal Gehenna, the lake of fire, will be just outside one wall of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), on the future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-8), as in a new surface for the earth. Christians will go forth from New Jerusalem on the New Earth to witness the eternal torment of non-Christians in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:46, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).

    Christians are also initially saved from hell by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8), and so before they are baptized. But everyone is ultimately justified by both faith and works (James 2:24).

    For example, in order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). If people believe with all of their heart that Jesus Christ is the human/divine Son of God (Acts 8:37), then they can get baptized anywhere there is water (Acts 8:36) into which they can be fully-immersed (buried) (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12). They need to make sure to be baptized in the name of God the Father; and of the Son, Jesus Christ; and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38). Christians can get water-immersion baptized at, for example, a Baptist-type congregation.

    Besides getting water baptized, Christians can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment that they become Christians. That is why the apostle Paul at one point asked some Christians: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

    Christians usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism will not result in the speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many Christians have not yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they have not yet asked for it, under the principle of: "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many Christians have not yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it is no longer in effect. Christians can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

    Not the current nation-state of Israel, but the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17), the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:24).

    That's right.

    All genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, is not based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

    All Jewish and Gentile Christians are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Jewish and Gentile Christians are heirs of all of the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

    In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", the apostle Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26), and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

    Christian Jews are New Covenanted Jews (Jeremiah 31:31).

    They can be combined.

    Galatians 4:7 means that Christians are not only God's servants, but are His children. For Christians are God's servants (Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1; 2 Timothy 2:24). People can be both someone's child and his servant at the same time (Malachi 3:17, Exodus 4:23). The book of Revelation is given to the Church (Revelation 22:16), God's servants (Revelation 22:6, Revelation 1:1), who will forever serve God (Revelation 22:3), with His name written on their foreheads (Revelation 22:4, Revelation 3:12-13).
     
  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    In Ezekiel 36:27, the original Hebrew word (H6213) translated as "cause" can be translated as "grant" (Job 10:12), in the sense that if Christians choose to walk in God's Holy Spirit, He will grant them the ability not to fulfill the lust of the flesh (Galatians 5:16). But if Christians choose instead to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to commit sin without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Romans 8:13).

    We maintain our faith by works.

    Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is instant, in the sense of it being a one-time event, just as the birth of an infant is instant, in the sense of it being a one-time event.

    Also, God grants initial salvation by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), just as infants are born without their works. But just as an infant after he is born needs to begin to breath, and then to continue to breathe, if he is to remain alive, so a new Christian after he is born again needs to begin to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and to continue to perform them (Titus 3:8), if his faith is to remain alive (James 2:26).

    For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That is why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

    The breathing analogy (James 2:26) does not include the automatic aspect of breathing. For Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible do not include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, Christians, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2), does not mean that Christians have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.

    Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    This means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, especially its physical circumcision (Galatians 6:12-13), are works of the flesh, as opposed to spiritual works of faith (Philippians 3:2-14; 1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8). For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12). Also, compare what Romans 7:5-6 says.

    Galatians 3:2-3 means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law cannot make Christians perfect. Galatians 3:2-3 is not contradicting that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

    Not necessarily, because of free will.

    For Matthew 25:26,30 shows that even someone who was a servant of Jesus Christ can ultimately lose his salvation because of unrepentant laziness. One way that a Christian could desire to become lazy without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term), that he continues in it over time until his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12). Love for God means choosing to do what God says to do (1 John 5:3). So if one's love for God grows cold (Matthew 24:12), one will no longer choose to do what God says to do (John 14:24), meaning that one will become lazy in God's eyes (Matthew 25:26,30).

    Impossible, because of John 15:5b.

    Only Jesus Christ can save people from hell (John 14:6, John 3:36), by His sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25), and by the ability that He gives Christians to continue in the faith (Hebrews 12:2), to continue to do good works (John 15:5), to continue to repent from any sin that they commit (John 8:34-36), and to overcome to the end (Revelation 12:11), by their own choice. All NOSAS does is admit the fact that there is no assurance that every Christian will choose to do all of these things to the end.

    OSAS ultimately negates free will.

    Isaiah 57:12 means that works will not profit us if we are in unrepentant sin (Isaiah 57:9-12).

    On their own, Christians are not good enough to earn their salvation (Romans 3:10). But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-7, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9). For while Christians cannot do good apart from continuing to abide in Jesus (Romans 3:12, John 15:5b), if they do continue to abide in Him, they can do good (John 15:5, John 5:29, Philippians 2:12-13; 1 Timothy 6:18; 1 Peter 3:11; 3 John 1:11, Galatians 6:10, Ephesians 6:8, Hebrews 13:16, Luke 6:35).

    Also, Jesus has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16). So they can become perfectly holy before God (2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 6:22, Hebrews 12:14; 1 Thessalonians 4:7, Ephesians 4:24). And Jesus has made it possible for Christians to repent and confess their sins to God, and be completely forgiven, if they nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit a sin (1 John 1:9). They will lose their salvation ultimately only if they continue in a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

    Philippians 3:9 contrasts non-Christian, Mosaic-law-keeping with Christian faith. It is not contradicting the necessity of works of faith for ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8; 1 Thessalonians 1:3).

    See also Matthew 7:21 and James 2:24.
     
  6. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    The change of the composition of the household of God from Jews to Jews plus Gentiles (IOW, the whole world) was a cataclysmic event. Had God's word failed? It caused two negative reactions which Paul wanted to correct: the claim from the Gentiles that they had worked, performed more righteously than Jews, and the claim from the Jews that God's word indeed never fails, so it was logical that Gentiles must become Jews in order to receive God's blessings. A very important issue, tackled by Paul in Romans, Ephesians, Titus etc.

    In Ephesians, Paul tells Gentile readers that they have been saved by a "salvation by grace through faith type" of salvation, and it was a gift, given by God making the Jews a vessel of dishonor, not because the Gentiles had worked, performed more righteously.

    In Titus, Paul warns against becoming Jews (following the Old Covenant, works of the Law):

    Titus 1:10For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.

    So Paul is teaching against becoming Jews, not against being loyal to God, doing good deeds to become justified, become seen as righteous, for blessings. If Abraham had not done good works, believed, left his country, etc. God would NOT have justified him, accepted him as His own,

    Most Greek scholars understand eternal to mean substantial, ie a fire that will complete its task.

    What do you think about ECT, eternal conscious torment? Will God have mercy on those who cry out for rescue from eternal conscious torment?

    Ephesians 2:8 teaches that Gentiles were not included because they performed more righteously, but it (salvation by grace through being loyal) was a gift, God made Israel a vessel of dishonor.

    Baptism is entry into covenanting, tending by God, pruning and trimming, leading to feeding from the Rock for the Israelites baptised into Moses, and revelation, tongues that edify the speaker, in those baptised into Christ.

    The Olive Tree is Christ who is tended by the Father. Israel is the natural (tended) branch. Gentiles are untended, wild olive branches, have no access to the Rock or to tongues. Yes, Saul was among the prophets. The bread is only for the children.

    Wrong. Flesh is contrasted with promise. Son of Hagar with son of the promise. Works of the law with grace through faith. Mount Sinai with the heavenly Jerusalem.

    Galatians 4:21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

    Jewishness is not passed on by genetics but by observation of works of the Law. A Gentile becomes a Jew by works of the law, and stays a Jew by atonement for failing to keep the law perfectly. No genetics involved.

    The Household of God consists of sheep of the covenanted pen as well as the uncovenanted pen, both identified by faith, loyalty:

    John 10:16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock

    Galatians 3:3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

    Galatians 4:25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
  7. Doulos 7

    Doulos 7 New Member

    74
    +20
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    The gospel consists of the good news of Jesus' death burial and redirection! Paul said that the Corinthians received it, he received it, he taught it, "that Christ died, was buried and raised to life on the last day"! But where people get confused is the passage that says, "when the Lord Jesus comes with His mighty angels in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those that do not obey the gospel..." Obviously obedience to the gospel is an important thing! But how do I obey an historical event? Paul said, "as many of you that are baptized into Christ have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised..." Paul gives us a picture of obeying the action of the good news! The same baptism that forgives our sins, gets us in the church, saves us, is the gospel that we are commanded to obey!
     
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    No; actually, He that is in me is greater than he that is in the world (1 John 4:4). And also, the weapons of my warfare are mighty in God for the pulling down of strongholds (I am praying for you).
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
  9. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    I noticed that you couldn't deal with the message I gave as a whole, so you picked it apart and singled out certain sentences to try and contradict with the scriptures that you always bring up and the doctrine that you purport along with them. I suppose it will take time for the Lord to answer the prayer that I prayed for you recently; and in the meantime you are preaching a different gospel (Galatians 1:6-9, 2 Corinthians 11:3-4); and therefore it may be the Lord's will for you to never come to the knowledge of the truth, because you were ordained to this condemnation of being a false teacher long ago (Jude 1:3-4).

    Now if you had been able to answer the whole of the message and the spirit of what it means, without picking and choosing sentences to contradict with your beliefs, then I might listen to you. If you post in your reply the whole of my message, and then respond to it completely afterward, then I will believe you are addressing the spirit of what I am saying. But as long as you pick apart my sentences, you are merely trying to destroy a message by cutting it in pieces; when the message in itself is wholesome and edifying.

    You can take things out of context in what a man says and destroy the message quite easily, in any message. That is what the devil loves to do to messages given by Spirit-filled pastors in a great many instances. When you see what the pastor said in context of the whole, however, you end up finding that he was not saying that at all, or that the whole of the message refutes the response given by the one who picked and chose sentences out of the message to try and destroy the whole of the message.
     
  10. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    See Ezekiel 36:27. God will cause us to walk in His statutes and His judgments after that we have received a new heart and a new spirit.

    Now I know that your response to this is to strive about words (see 1 Timothy 6:4, 2 Timothy 2:14) and to say that it is not the right words to say that He causes us to walk in His statutes and in His judgments. In order to keep your doctrine, you have to change what the Bible says to us in the translations that are given to us; which God in His sovereignty, Omnipotence, and love would never allow to be corrupted impaho.

    Now of course we have free will. However when a man is born again, he surrenders his will to Christ, and the nature of his will is changed. He now has a desire to obey the Lord; whereas before he was inclined only to disobey, or to obey in an attempt to make God owe salvation to him (Romans 4:4), when God gives us salvation as a free gift (Romans 5:15-17) through grace (Ephesians 2:8-9).

    Concerning a different portion of your doctrine, it should be clear that we do not maintain our salvation by works, so that we are ultimately saved by the good works that we do...this is false doctrine. Salvation is by grace and begins with faith, ends with faith, and is by faith all the way through (Romans 1:17). Having begun in the Spirit (by faith), we are not now made perfect by the flesh (works/works of the law/our own righteousness)...(Galatians 3:1-6). As we have received Jesus Christ our Lord (by faith), so we should walk in Him (Colossians 2:6).

    Now in Psalms 37:4 it is written, Delight thyself also in the LORD, and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

    However in Jeremiah 17:9 we find that the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it? So then, is it a good thing that we receive the desires of our hearts? It isn't as long as our hearts are deceitful and wicked.

    Jesus said, Ye must be born again.

    This means that God takes the stony heart out of our flesh and gives us an heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:25-27). The new heart that God gives us when we are born again is honest and good (Luke 8:15); it is filled with the love of God (Romans 5:5). And this love cannot be in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

    Therefore because the love of God dwells in the heart of the true believer; and because this is a practical love: therefore good works will flow as the natural (or supernatural) result of being born again (through faith alone in Jesus Christ).

    If someone says that they are born again, but in twenty years after their "salvation" they never do anything for God and never obey God; to me that it the sign that their faith wasn't genuine. Because if anyone truly has faith in Jesus Christ, the love of God is shed abroad in their heart. And this love will always be practical and will work itself out in what the person does.

    Now if a person does many good works but does not have faith in Jesus Christ, their works won't save them. If they think that they have faith in Jesus Christ, but are trusting in their works to "ultimately" save them, their works won't save them. But if their works stem out of a love for God and people that comes from being born again through faith alone in Jesus, their faith alone in Jesus saves them, and their works still do not save them (Ephesians 2:9). They are only the evidence to people that they are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ. And even then, the works do not necessarily testify perfectly to a faith in Jesus. Because many cults today teach salvation by works; and so the motivation for doing good works can be faulty in anyone who does them, from the perspective of those who are looking on. They could be trying to save themselves by what they do; and in such a situation their works will not profit them (Isaiah 57:12); they are as filthy rags before the Lord (Isaiah 64:6). Even for the one who is saved by grace through faith, he is not profited by his works; but it is only the righteousness of faith that saves him (Philippians 3:9).
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
  11. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    You are just ignoring my advice. Your posts are still not scholarly.

    For example, you need to address my posts issue by issue. You need to quote citations of scholars who refute my view.

    What's the problem? Do you live in a dormitory where your pastor censors what you read? You don't get updates from the latest archaeological findings? You should go out more often. Read what the scholars who have found fresh manuscripts say. Even read what the liberal scholars like Ehrman claim. Just to prove them wrong. Is your faith so weak it can't stand challenges?

    Ask for daily bread. If your earthly father can give you good things...
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
  12. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    The inclusion of Gentiles had been prophesied.

    For Isaiah 49:6 and Isaiah 42:6 foretold that Jesus Christ's Gospel of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), would save both Jewish and Gentile Christians (Acts 26:22-23, Luke 24:46-47). The New Covenant includes Gentile Christians by grafting them into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16).

    Isaiah 49:6b started to be fulfilled at Jesus Christ's first coming (Luke 2:32, Acts 26:23), and His sending forth of His apostles to the Gentiles (Acts 13:47, Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 26:17-18, Acts 22:21).

    Not New Covenant Jews (Jeremiah 31:31).

    What is eternally punishing (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11) about the future, "Gehenna" hell (Luke 12:5, Greek) is fire eternally burning the physical body, and worms eternally eating the physical body (Mark 9:46, Isaiah 66:24). The physical bodies of non-Christians in Gehenna need not be exactly like people have now, which do not regenerate parts of themselves if those parts are burned or eaten. For before non-Christians are cast into the Gehenna hell (also called the lake of fire), they will be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:12-15, John 5:29b). And their new, physical resurrection bodies could eternally regenerate parts of themselves whenever those parts are burned or eaten. But then the regenerated parts could be burned or eaten again, only to regenerate again, only to be burned or eaten again, and so on, forever: an everlasting suffering (Revelation 14:10-11).

    In Gehenna the fire will never go out (Mark 9:46). It will never run out of fuel, but will continue to punish non-Christians forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15). The fact that the fire will already be burning before the physical resurrection bodies of non-Christians are cast into it (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15) means that their bodies will not be the fire's fuel. The fire will have its own source of fuel by which it will burn/punish non-Christians forever (Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

    Even before baptism, Christian faith alone is entry into the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28).

    He is the root (Romans 15:12, Revelation 5:5, and Revelation 22:16). But the good olive tree in Romans 11 is still Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24). For Gentiles are from a different, wild olive tree (Romans 11:17,24).

    It is in one sense (Romans 11:1,14).

    There is no uncovenanted pen, but one pen under the New Covenant (John 10:16b).

    That refers to Old Covenant law-keeping (e.g. Galatians 6:12-13).
     
  13. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    Only in the original-Hebrew sense of "granting" us to be able to do so.

    For while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), He does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

    Not in the sense that it is no longer free.

    Our ultimate salvation depends on works (James 2:24).

    Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

    Because of free will, our love can grow cold (Matthew 24:12).

    Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that Christians are robots. For if Christians cannot choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who does not persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

    But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if, after he became a Christian, he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6), and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey Him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a Christian fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin seventy-times-seven times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin, and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

    Only Jesus Christ is our Savior. For it is only by our continuing to abide in Him that we are able to believe, and do, the right things (Hebrews 12:2, John 15:4-5, Philippians 2:12-13). On our own, there is no way that we can ever save ourselves from hell. Also, Jesus is both our Savior and our King, our Lord: His name "Jesus", which means "YHWH the Savior" (cf. Isaiah 43:11), points to His role as our Savior (Matthew 1:21). And His title of the "Christ", which means the "Anointed" (cf. 2 Samuel 12:7), points to His role as our King (Mark 15:32), our Lord (2 Peter 1:11).

    Including the Biblical Christian religion, with regard to ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8).
     
  14. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    If you are claiming that the inclusion of Gentiles into the People of God happened only after the new Covenant was formed, you are wrong. Abraham was not a Jew, yet he was included, justified, in the group called the People of God. Jesus called the Gentiles who were not covenanted, (were not Jews, but were His sheep), sheep of another flock.

    You can´t remain a Jew if you are not clean, consecrated. The effect of the Atonement lasted for a year. Unclean members are banned from entering the Camp, are like Gentiles living amongst other Gentiles. There were no consecrated Jews after AD70. They enter the New Covenant as Gentiles, who can partake of the Passover of Christ.

    No. Unlike some fires that leave the body partly destroyed, the destruction of non believers is complete. The idea of God unwilling to listen to the screams of persons asking for mercy goes totally against the record of Him being a gracious and compassionate God, slow to punish and generous in willingness to forgive:

    Psalms 103:8The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

    I suggest you read about eternal conscious torment by both for and against, before you post again.

    Israel cannot be the Olive Tree. Only branches can be cut off, and Israel was cut off.

    Only the doers of the Law are Jews, not the possessors.

    Romans 2:26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

    You mean it is mandatory for lip service to be followed by actual deeds? What about the thief on the cross? Careful how you handle a very complex issue.
     
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    See Psalms 118:8-9. I do not put my trust in the words of men (nor will I pit scholar against scholar).

    The word of God is more authoritative than any scholar. If a scholar tries to subvert the word of God, by attempting to cast doubt on the veracity of it, that scholar is not speaking by the Spirit of God.

    As for your questions, I believe it says in Proverbs 19:27, Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

    I count the words of true knowledge to be the words that have been given to us in the Holy Bible. I believe it was R.A. Torrey who said something to the effect of, A man of one book (the Bible) will often be much wiser than a man of many books; for when he reads the other books he will have the holy perspective of the word of God. That is not an exact quote but a paraphrase from the memory of the gist of what was said.
     
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    Actually I don't. Because 1) I don't count your scholars as authoritative (you are a Jehovah's Witness, are you not?); and 2) The weapons of my warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for the pulling down of strongholds: which translates as: I can accomplish much more by praying for you (because I do not regard iniquity in my heart) than I can by pitting my scholars against yours, or by arguing my point of view. The Holy Spirit has a way of breaking through to people's hearts apart from the servant of the Lord striving or arguing with them (see 2 Timothy 2:23-26).

    As a matter of fact the scripture instructs me really to simply avoid you (Romans 16:17). But because this is such a public forum, I speak to you in the hopes that you might repent; and I also respond to your posts in order that people who are looking onward might not be deceived by the false doctrines that you purport.

    I believe that you know deep down that what you preach is erroneous. And as such, you are crying out for someone to prove you wrong concerning what you have been taught; because it is not the truth that sets anyone free.

    I do not need to convince you of something that you are already aware of. I would just encourage you to grab a hold of a KJV rather than the faulty bible of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and to read through entire books of the Bible to get the meaning of the scriptures in their context, without the help of the scholars that you hold to be authoritative; because they are leading you astray.

    Why not ask for the unction and anointing of the Holy Spirit to be your teacher? If you have that, you do not need any human teacher or scholar to teach you (1 John 2:20, 1 John 2:27).
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    There comes a time when one just has to wipe the dust off of one's feet...

    And I do so now with the final statement that Biblical Christianity does not teach salvation by works. There are many cults that would use the Bible in order to teach such an erroneous view; however it is not the biblical view: it is a twisting of the word that does not hold all of scripture to be authoritative. Ephesians 2:9 is clear that salvation is not of works, in its context. And it is not speaking of "initial" salvation there; otherwise it would specify that. It is teaching that ultimate salvation, also, is by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. In some people's theology, there will be people in heaven boasting that they were "ultimately saved" and made it to heaven because of...and then a list of all the things that they boast they did that earned them their way into heaven (ultimately). It doesn't fly. I pray that the Lord will open your eyes, @Bible2+; but if He doesn't I can only assume it is because you were marked out for this condemnation long ago.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
  18. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    +461
    Christian
    Married
    See? Yet another example of an emotional post without a sound argument.

    2 Timothy 1:7For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

    I´ll share with you the secret of my sound arguments that demolish teachings against obedience to Christ.

    First you have to pray every day for bread. If your earthly father does not withhold good things from you, why should your Heavenly Father not give you the Holy Spirit when you ask. For example, I asked and He revealed that the works mentioned in 1 Cor 3 are teachings God gives us to build up the body, the young church we are part of. This is very unusual, because most scholars teach that works are good works and the body is our physical bodies. IOW, God will punish us for destroying our bodies with works made of straw.

    Next I search for the views of scholars, and see if they confirm the revelation given to me, with good Biblical and sound logical support. I find that Gordon Fee has the same view. What a relief! Itś pretty stressful to clash with the normal view, but I have to believe Scripture, not the majority of teachers!

    So I encourage you to understand my posts, pray for clarity, and demolish the view if you are shown it is wrong.

    2 Corinthians 10:4The weapons of our warfare are not the weapons of the world. Instead, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We tear down arguments, and every presumption set up against the knowledge of God; and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
     
  19. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    Actually, the scripture in question (2 Corinthians 10:3-5) says,

    For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds: ) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

    As I am in the process of moving, I don't have the time to go through every one of your arguments to demolish them. But I do have the time to lift up a prayer for you, that the Holy Ghost might convict you of rejecting Christ in your seeking to save yourself through your own good works, through seeking to establish your own righteousness and thereby not submitting yourself to the righteousness of God.

    In 2 Timothy 2:23-26, Romans 1:29, and in 2 Corinthians 12:20, I am told that it is a sin to be in debate mode: rather I ought to meekly instruct the ones who oppose themselves in the spirit of meekness.

    Now since I am not in the need to go back and see everything you have posted in order to try and refute your every word (for in what you have said to others and not addressed directly to me, I have considered that it is merely the blind leading the blind); I have resolved that the heavy artillery of the full armor of God (prayer--Ephesians 6:18) will be more powerful than any of my engaging with you sword to sword.

    So I am resolved to cast down your imaginations and pull down the enemy's strongholds in your life not with a spiritual blade but with spiritual dynamite--sending shells your way in order to take down the demonic principalities and powers that are behind the things that you teach. When they are taken care of, I won't even need to argue doctrine with you...because you will then be in seeking mode and if you ask, seek, and knock, it will be given you, you will find, and it will be opened to you.

    In the meantime I have preached the true gospel here for those who are willing to receive it; and not be turned aside to the words of men (your scholars). For it is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man...It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes. Psalms 118:8-9.

    Because again, 2 Timothy 2:23-26, Romans 1:29, and 2 Corinthians 12:20, tell me not to argue with you but rather to pray for your soul. If it is the Lord's will to save you (if you are not too far gone, and your condemnation was not marked out long ago, Jude 1:3-4), then my prayers will avail for you and you will be redeemed from a salvation-by-works mentality so that you can be forgiven solely through faith in the shed blood of Christ.

    And again, Romans 16:17 tells me that my best course of action is simply to avoid you...so I am moving toward that with an attempt to not be rude, gently breaking off contact.

    Of course my Bible also tells me to continue to contend here for the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints. So I will contend when I have the time and when I find that it is a necessary thing.

    Sometimes it is difficult to determine what is the proper balance when it comes to situations where certain scriptures seem to conflict with each other in the direction they are giving me to follow. I will see what is the best thing when I have put more prayer into my course of action concerning this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
  20. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

    +572
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    If you are reading a faulty bible (such as the NeWT (a snake with legs)) and reading the opinions of fallible scholars (taking their words to be on a par with God's word), you can pray for bread all you want and the bread that you eat will be filled with poison.
     
Loading...