What is the deal with Calvinists?

[Thomas]

Why is Calvinism so dull?

Why are so many calvinists mean, arrogant, self-righteous? Why does this one theology bear such bitter fruit? What's up with that?

Why were the Puritans such jerks? They even made the zoos get closed this one time.

Why is Calvinism like a club or a lifestyle where you read these certain books and think these certain thoughts - this narrow little world? I don't see the appeal, folks.

It's not a very vibrant, fruitful theology as far as I can see. What's up with that? At least pentecostals are earnest and intense. At least Arminians are kind and compassionate.

Calvinists say emotionalism is bogus. Sure, but where is their earnestness? Their zeal? All they seem to do is discuss the fine points of predestinarian theology, complain about how christianity has been on decline because less people are calvinists today, and point out that Arminians are in error, if not hellbound.

I've been one. I've been associated with them. I still deal with some issues because of that. Hyper-calvinists, the worst of the kind. Now that I think of it, Spurgeon was a great man, no doubt. But hypercalvinists? Hard to have good feelings about them, to say the least.

Well, here it is. I decided to start "interacting" again instead of just lurking like I've been doing for so long.

So - this is how a lot of people see you guys. Explain yourselves if you feel like.

Please don't take offense. It's kinda personal though. I'm kinda getting it off my chest. Flame away or whatever.

Cheers.

 

[mlqurgw]

Why is Calvinism so dull?

Why are so many calvinists mean, arrogant, self-righteous? Why does this one theology bear such bitter fruit? What's up with that?

Why were the Puritans such jerks? They even made the zoos get closed this one time.

Why is Calvinism like a club or a lifestyle where you read these certain books and think these certain thoughts - this narrow little world? I don't see the appeal, folks.

It's not a very vibrant, fruitful theology as far as I can see. What's up with that? At least pentecostals are earnest and intense. At least Arminians are kind and compassionate.

Calvinists say emotionalism is bogus. Sure, but where is their earnestness? Their zeal? All they seem to do is discuss the fine points of predestinarian theology, complain about how christianity has been on decline because less people are calvinists today, and point out that Arminians are in error, if not hellbound.

I've been one. I've been associated with them. I still deal with some issues because of that. Hyper-calvinists, the worst of the kind. Now that I think of it, Spurgeon was a great man, no doubt. But hypercalvinists? Hard to have good feelings about them, to say the least.

Well, here it is. I decided to start "interacting" again instead of just lurking like I've been doing for so long.

So - this is how a lot of people see you guys. Explain yourselves if you feel like.

Please don't take offense. It's kinda personal though. I'm kinda getting it off my chest. Flame away or whatever.

Cheers.

You are painting with a pretty wide brush. While there are some who are as you say by far they are not the majority. Calvinism tends more to humble than to develop pride. If you think the Puritans were jerks you obviously don't know enough about the Puritans. They did have their problems but were a lively bunch. Theirs was a joyful religion not as they are normally depicted as cruel and mean.
What is your definition of Hyper-Calvinist?
I believe that if you read much here you will find that most are not mean but are adamant about truth. Having to constantly correct the false nonsense that is claimed against Calvinists does wear on the patience. If only our enemies would ever deal with what Calvinism teaches instead of what they think it teaches.

 

[nill]

All those "Why are" statements, Thomas? They're caricatures, plain and simple. Personal experience, which might not do anything for you: For exactly one year, I've been going on my own to my own church while at college. For the first time, I discerned what church I wanted to go to. Small PCA church nearby. Teaches Reformed theology. Everything about the church pretty conservative. The one thing that majorly struck me and still continues to strike me: I have never met a pastor who so loved his congregation! Everything he's been willing to do for me, meet with me, pray for me, etc. No pastor is perfect--Calvinists might be guilty of thinking each one's pastors are perfect, haha, probably just because we love them so much--but I am so appreciative of the zeal this man has for tending for the flock entrusted to his pastoral care.

That takes care of the misunderstood notion that we are hardened, staunch, and don't have any love or zeal for anyone (i.e., insinuating that we are not "earnest and intense" or "kind and compassionate"--I can attest that Calvinists are!).

As for the others? Well, I can only guess. This is a start, however. Maybe I'll get to some more objections later on.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

Anyone who says we Calvinists are dull needs to skip on over to our "Smile ......................" threads.

 

[Thomas]

Yeah, you guys are probably right.

I was kinda muddle-headed when I typed that. And a little angry I guess. Touchy subject for me.

I've known some very, very nasty calvinists. Some of them personally. But there are a lot of them. Nasty ones.

I'm familiar with some pretty good folks who are calvinists, though.

Forget what I wrote, I guess.

But as for it being a charicature: well, there's a bunch of people who fit it.

But anyway.

God bless you guys. I guess I'll delete this thread tomorrow.

 

[nill]

Before you go, however, I'll share something with you that I told another person recently on CF who had similar issues towards Calvinists in particular:

"People who treat others poorly are jerks, not Calvinists."

The very doctrines of grace are not what lead a person to be jerkwads towards you or any other person. Saying "a lot" of Calvinists are nasty people might just say something about your own personal bias. I could say "a lot" of Pentecostals are ignorant and wacko-minded. It's not nice, it's not true. It just shows my own personal bias and ignorance. Pentecostalism as a belief--so far that I know, I haven't studied it--doesn't say, "be ignorant and wacko-minded." Similarly, the doctrines of grace do not say, "be hateful and nasty people." But all this you know already. =^)

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

Well, Thomas, they certainly are out there. Particularly those who are new to the Doctrines of Grace, and feel it is their duty to beat everyone else over the head with them. But you need only ask Joe Arminian on the street what he thinks of Calvinism to see that there's nastiness in both camps.

 

[cygnusx1]

Anyone who says we Calvinists are dull needs to skip on over to our "Smile ......................" threads.

 

[HamletsChoice]

Why is Calvinism so dull?

Why are so many calvinists mean, arrogant, self-righteous? Why does this one theology bear such bitter fruit? What's up with that?

Why were the Puritans such jerks? They even made the zoos get closed this one time.

Why is Calvinism like a club or a lifestyle where you read these certain books and think these certain thoughts - this narrow little world? I don't see the appeal, folks.

It's not a very vibrant, fruitful theology as far as I can see. What's up with that? At least pentecostals are earnest and intense. At least Arminians are kind and compassionate.

Calvinists say emotionalism is bogus. Sure, but where is their earnestness? Their zeal? All they seem to do is discuss the fine points of predestinarian theology, complain about how christianity has been on decline because less people are calvinists today, and point out that Arminians are in error, if not hellbound.

I've been one. I've been associated with them. I still deal with some issues because of that. Hyper-calvinists, the worst of the kind. Now that I think of it, Spurgeon was a great man, no doubt. But hypercalvinists? Hard to have good feelings about them, to say the least.

Well, here it is. I decided to start "interacting" again instead of just lurking like I've been doing for so long.

So - this is how a lot of people see you guys. Explain yourselves if you feel like.

Please don't take offense. It's kinda personal though. I'm kinda getting it off my chest. Flame away or whatever.

Cheers.

My question is why do people strike out so vehemently against the biblical doctrines of grace? I have seen many such vicious attacks, as this one, over and over in my lifetime. What I find is when they can't refute all those predestination and election verses then they go on the attack to the messenger including even Paul.

My parents were the same way over 10 years until over the past couple of years after careful study they embraced the reformed faith, attended an Inquirer's Class at a PCA Church and just finished it. My dad then past away suddenly on 1/5/07 with these words very recently on his lips to an elder "that he couldn't believe he had fought me and these biblical doctrines so long." He said, "he thought at first it was all just a big cult" until he began to study the bible and then meet the wonderful Christians (calvinists) and pastor at the PCA church he joined right before his death. It was a long 10 year journey.

I guess John Owen said it best when he said our vehement resistance of these doctrines evidences just how deeply rooted our sinful natures are in us, they are so obviously and plainly spelled out in the Scriptures but we just will not see them.

 

[calmcoolandelected]

Yeah, you guys are probably right.

I was kinda muddle-headed when I typed that. And a little angry I guess. Touchy subject for me.

I've known some very, very nasty calvinists. Some of them personally. But there are a lot of them. Nasty ones.

I'm familiar with some pretty good folks who are calvinists, though.

Forget what I wrote, I guess.

But as for it being a charicature: well, there's a bunch of people who fit it.

But anyway.

God bless you guys. I guess I'll delete this thread tomorrow.

Sweetie,

You'll find good and bad examples in all walks of life! I'm sorry that you have run into some Calvinists that have rubbed you the wrong way. We're not all a bunch of sourpusses, wanting to ruin everyone's day!

I hope you're having a better day today, Thomas! We're having our first snowfall of the season and that is always fun for us.

CC&E

 

[bradfordl]

It was a long 10 year journey.

My condolences for your loss, Hamlet. I know the sorrow of a father's passing. But, glory to God, what a sweet testimony to the overwhelming grace He has shown us in Christ Jesus. What a joy it must be to you to know your Father was granted the peace of knowing that his Redeemer held him firm in his passage.

Psa 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

And we have this certain expectation:

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Blessings,

Brad

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Hello Thomas,

You have already recieved some good replies from the good people (all Calvinists) above. As has been pointed out already there are bad eggs in every group. Hitler and the Nazis slaughtered the Jews and started the most brutal deadly war in human history -- DOes this mean that all Germans are murderous anti-emites and war mongers? Not hardly.

If you are really interested in learning, and the questions above are not just an attempt to stir up strife, then you have come to a good place. If you are here to cause trouble, then you that will be handled by the Mods.

To see an accurate picture of the Puritans (if you are interested in accuracy) I can recommend a number of good historical works. Here is a good starter Worldy Saints: The Puritans As They Really Were by Leland Ryken.

If you want to discuss Calvinism in history, its theology or any other topic there is someone here who can work with you. I hope you will see what a good thing the Doctrines of Grace really are.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[McWilliams]

My question is why do people strike out so vehemently against the biblical doctrines of grace? I have seen many such vicious attacks, as this one, over and over in my lifetime. What I find is when they can't refute all those predestination and election verses then they go on the attack to the messenger including even Paul.

My parents were the same way over 10 years until over the past couple of years after careful study they embraced the reformed faith, attended an Inquirer's Class at a PCA Church and just finished it. My dad then past away suddenly on 1/5/07 with these words very recently on his lips to an elder "that he couldn't believe he had fought me and these biblical doctrines so long." He said, "he thought at first it was all just a big cult" until he began to study the bible and then meet the wonderful Christians (calvinists) and pastor at the PCA church he joined right before his death. It was a long 10 year journey.

I guess John Owen said it best when he said our vehement resistance of these doctrines evidences just how deeply rooted our sinful natures are in us, they are so obviously and plainly spelled out in the Scriptures but we just will not see them.

I am sorry you are in the midst of dealing with such a great loss and know our Lord will continue to comfort you!
I too, as I've said here many times, must wonder why I came to know the doctrines of grace so late in life! God is sovereign and I'm ever so thankful to Him that He did find me and bring me to His whole truth!
All of my adult children but one, are now in that place where your parents were and I pray that our Lord also will bring them to His truth! Meanwhile, they are actually hostile to any discussion of christianity, bible or such and they will daily remain in my prayers, that they will come to see what we know to be His whole word and plan of provision for us as He is the one who has predestined it all! Soli deo gloria!

 

[JM]

[cheeky]

Why is Arminianism so emotional?

Why are so many Arminians worldly, liberal, self-righteous? Why does this one theology bear "such" fruit? What's up with that?

Why was Charles Finney such a jerk? He even lied to get ordained.

Why is Arminianism like a club or a lifestyle where you don't really read theological works but Rick Warren instead? I don't see the appeal, folks.

It's not a very vibrant, fruitful theology as far as I can see. What's up with that? At least Calvinists are earnest and intense. At least Reformed Christians seek to know God's word.

Arminians say studying theology is bogus. Sure, but where is their earnestness? Their zeal? All they seem to do is discuss the fine points of worship music, and get overly excited about how christianity has been on the raise because people dig their music and wave their hands in the air, and point out that Calvinists are in error, if not hellbound without the gift of tongues.

I've never been one, but some of my best friends are Arminian gifters. Thank God I don't have these issues to deal with. Hyper-tongue talkers, the worst of the kind believing the gift of tongues is required for salvation. Now that I think of it, Wesley was a great man, no doubt. But hyper-gifters? Hard to have good feelings about them, to say the least.

Well, here it is. I decided to start "interacting" again instead of just lurking like I've been doing for so long.

So - this is how a lot of people see you guys. Explain yourselves if you feel like.

Please don't take offense. It's kinda personal though. I'm kinda getting it off my chest. Flame away or whatever.

Cheers.
_________________________________

See my point?

j

 

[Thomas]

What point? That badly articulated posts are well-suited for parody?

 

[HamletsChoice]

What point? That badly articulated posts are well-suited for parody?

Is this your final attack or can we expect more?

 

[Thomas]

Mods, feel free to delete this thread. I'm not entirely sure why I posted it.

I've tried deleting but can't figure out how to do it.

Cheers.

 

[mlqurgw]

Thomas; I, for one, am glad you got this off your chest. Such feelings as you had(I hope it is in the past tense) will eat at you until it spoils your spirit. It is good to let it fly sometimes so that you can let it go and deal with the things that bother you in a more rational and clear mind. I cannot speak for everyone here but as far as I am concerned feel free to say what you think. We can handle it, believe me. As long as you continue to show the spirit you did in your second post you will be met with kindness and patience.

 

[HamletsChoice]

My condolences for your loss, Hamlet. I know the sorrow of a father's passing. But, glory to God, what a sweet testimony to the overwhelming grace He has shown us in Christ Jesus. What a joy it must be to you to know your Father was granted the peace of knowing that his Redeemer held him firm in his passage.

Psa 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

And we have this certain expectation:

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Blessings,

Brad

Thx so much, it has indeed been a great comfort. And then to see a 10 year journey to the reformed faith end exactly at the same time of his death was absolutely amazing. My mom now has a church that both she and my dad learned to love together that she can continue attending and feast on the Word of God and be ministered to as a widow from calvinists that show great love. She is at a bible study there now even as we write and they leave an empty chair where my dad used to sit. She cries a lot still but it's not too much of an interrruption to the bible study.

I am so content!!

 

[synger]

I can see the OP's viewpoint. There are many people who get all excited about the doctrine of grace, or other theology, and who think that answers everything and go on and on and on about it.

I see the same thing from people who have struggled to lose weight and finally found a diet that works for them. Or newly converted Baptists who have "discovered" the Bible for the first time. Or someone whose home-town team never wins, but they root for them loyally anyway and know every detail of every player's history from Day One of the team.

People are people. We are sinful and fallen. We don't always think about HOW we're saying things in our eagerness to SAY them and Get Our Point Across.


---------------------
Father, forgive me for all the times I've been a theology-snob, and a Bible-snob, and a history-snob, and a tech-snob... You alone know how often it happens. Help me recognize what I sound like, and soften the rough edges so that Your will can more easily be done in my life.