What is the Day of the Lord?

BABerean2 said:

The only way you can make the above work is to ignore 1 Thessalonians chapter 5, which provides the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4.
When the letter was written there were no chapters or verses in the letter.

The words "we" and "sleep" in the following verse proves that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

1Th 5:10　 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.


　
The word "But" at the beginning of chapter 5 connects it to chapter 4.

1Th 5:1　 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.　

1Th 5:2　 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.　



Therefore, the event at the end of chapter 4 occurs on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief".

Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, this is clearly a Second Coming event.
This fact was understood by the majority of Christians for the first 1800 years of the Church.

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The above speculation is refuted in my post #19, including the following:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and Rev.21:1.

Rev.21:1.The chronological order of end time events:

1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.

3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27.

Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21.

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948.

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.

7. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26...

8. The antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns [nations] are destroyed. Rev19:17-21. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold [Israel and His Church] and one Shepherd. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27 will end.
9..Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:9-13; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47; Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16.

10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them..

11. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of the one body of Christ, His Church, all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining , of those who had to go through the tribulation, recorded in Zech.13:8. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

12. Jesus 1,000 year kingdom will begin at this point, according to Rev.20:6, here on the earth, on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, confirming Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. At the same time the 1,000 years Satan will be in the Abyss, according to Rev.20:1-3. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold, Israel and the Church, with one Shepherd. When Jesus Millennial kingdom has ended, 1,000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, recorded in Rev.20:11-15. Satan will be released and go out to deceive the people and nations again in his last rebellion against God and gather a huge army who come against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. But God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them all, and throwing Satan into the lake of fire, forever, in Rev.20:7-10.

13. The second resurrection takes place according to Rev.20:5, that consists of all those who will be saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus here on the earth, as well as the Godless and wicked, at the Great White Throne Judgment, set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgment, along with death itself, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Rev.20:11-15, and Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46 will be fulfilled.

14. The old heaven and earth will pass away, recorded in Rev.21:1 [Destroyed by fire according to 2 Pet.3:7] and God will provide an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, 1,500 miles long and as wide as it is long and as high as it is wide, Rev.21:1-16.

15. The rest of chapters 21 and 22 allude to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.


Quasar92

BABerean2 said:

Please identify which of the following would be a part of "Israel", based on your understanding.

1. Sammy Davis Jr. was a man of African heritage, who converted to Judaism.
Is he a part of Israel?


2. A man's father was a Jew, but his mother was a Gentile.
Is he a part of Israel?


3. A man's mother was a Jew, but his father was a Gentile.
Is he a part of Israel?


4. If I had a great grandfather who was a Jew, would that make me a part of Israel?


5. When it comes to Native American tribes, there is a standard to determine if a person is considered a member of the tribe.
How much Jewish DNA is required to make a person a part of Israel?


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Your off subject post has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

The Church will never be Israel!

Rev.2:9 "I know your afflictions and your poverty--yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan."


Rev.3:9 "I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you."


IS THE CHURCH ISRAEL

We come now to something that is crucial and needs to be defined to understand the new covenant. Is the Church Israel? For if it is ,we are obligated to keep Sabbath day at least in a general sense. If the Church is not Israel then what sense would there be to keep the Sabbath. Scripturally we find the Church is not Israel the nation but a separate entity under an entirely new covenant. Israel is called the wife of Jehovah, while the Church is called the bride of Christ, showing distinctions in how God relates to each. The word Israel is always descriptive of the physical descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. It was Jacob who’s name was changed to Israel and had 12 sons that became that nation.

Many transfer the promises and the covenants to Israel to the Church, but there is absolutely no reason to do this. The Church is not spiritual Israel. Look it up you’ll never find the term or concept in the Bible. There are only two verses that are used to validate this view, both are unsupported in their context.

Gal.3:29 says that those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed. The seed of Abraham does not mean one is Israel. It Means those who are justified by faith are spiritual descendants of Abraham but this does not make them descendants of Jacob who is Israel. They partake in the spiritual blessings that come through Israel. While there are two different groups of people who can be descendants of Abraham one of which is the Arabs, they do not share in the promises of Jacob. Only Israel is descended from the physical posterity of Jacob.

The other verse is Gal.6:16 where Paul is addressing both believing Jews and Gentiles in the church "As many as walk according to this rule (Gentile believers) and upon "the Israel of God." In its context this term means Jews who are believers, who believe salvation is by faith in Christ contrary to what the Judaizers were teaching that the law was needed also. Paul also addresses this in Rom.9:6-8 that there are two Israel's, one that consists of Jews and the elect, the true Israel which are the physical posterity and also have the faith of Abraham, they are the Israel of God mentioned in Gal.6. As Paul states, " for they are not all Israel who are of Israel." (Rom.9:6). There is also "Israel" after the flesh found in 1 Cor.10:18. The Church is never called spiritual Israel or is a new Israel replacing the old. Nor does it say believers become Jews. Both gentiles and Jews participate together in the New Covenant. as Eph 2 addresses the middle wall of partition being broken down and God makeing a new entity.

In the N.T we have three terms used alongside each other, Israel, Gentiles and the Church. The Church consists of both believing Gentiles and Jews while Israel as a nation is in unbelief as are the Gentiles. The Church and Israel are two distinct groups and God has a different program for each. Both are brought in make up the body of Christ. The name Israel is used 20 times and the church 19 times in the book of Acts, both are kept distinct While there is no difference in salvation for both, Gods plans are different for each. In the book of Acts Israel and the church exist alongside each other, nowhere is the church called the new or spiritual Israel.There are certain areas the differences of Jew and gentile are erased but in all areas.Such as we becoming one in Christ all the same way 1 Cor.12:13 , according to the NT a Jew is one that is not only outwardly by the flesh but inwardly,this obviously can't be for a gentile so for a gentile. there is no such thing as a spiritual Jew from the inside only, but there is such a thing as spiritual gentiles.

If you claim to be Israel then you were cut off according to Romans.11. And where the natural branch once was, God grafted in unnatural ones the Gentiles. It doesn't get any clearer. The teaching of God abandoning Israel the nation or replaced by the Church did quite well for almost 1,500 hundred years until he actually gave them back their land AND STARTED TO REGATHER THEM FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD JUST AS HE SAID HE WOULD. God said in Neh. 1:8 if you are unfaithful I will scatter you.' but he also said...

Jer.30:18, 31:8 "Behold I will bring them from the north country and gather them from the ends of the earth."

Isa.43:5 I will bring your descendants from the east and gather you from the west...

It is a nation that is being gathered today for the tribulation, they are gathered first in unbelief until that fateful day where in Romans 11 Paul says they will all be saved after the fullness of the gentiles has come in. The Church is dealt with differently than the nation of Israel, God has a differnt plan for both.


Source: Let Us Reason Ministries



Quasar92

BABerean2 said:

If you cannot define who "Israel" actually is, then how can you claim to build a doctrine upon the differences between Israel and the Church?

Instead of answering the question of how members of "Israel" are defined, you are attempting to ignore the questions in post #23 above.


All false doctrines are not revealed by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

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BABerean2 said:

If you cannot define who "Israel" actually is, then how can you claim to build a doctrine upon the differences between Israel and the Church?

Instead of answering the question of how members of "Israel" are defined, you are attempting to ignore the questions in post #23 above.


All false doctrines are not revealed by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

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The day will never come when you prove Israel is anthing other than non-believers. All others who believe in Jesus Christ, belong to His one Body, the Church, s recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13. Got that straight now? It's really VERY simple!


Quasar92

BABerean2 said:

If you cannot define who "Israel" actually is, then how can you claim to build a doctrine upon the differences between Israel and the Church?

Instead of answering the question of how members of "Israel" are defined, you are attempting to ignore the questions in post #23 above.


All false doctrines are not revealed by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

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My post#24 was the last time the Scriptures refuted you on who Israel is. Any twelve year old who attends Sunday School knows, Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah and are known as non-believers, in contrast to all of us who believe in Jesus are members of His Body, the Church.

Your denial of that together with attempts to remake the Scriptures so they fit your belief system, is ludicrous!

Keep it up, the Scriptures will continue to rebuke you.


Quasar92

jgr said:

Your attempt at a definition has resoundingly flunked the definition of "definition."

Any twelve year old would tell you that.

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And by what qualifications would you have a clue to know?


Quasar2

BABerean2 said:

If any twelve year old can identify who is "Israel", then answer the following questions for us...


1. Sammy Davis Jr. was a man of African heritage, who converted to Judaism.
Is he a part of Israel?


2. A man's father was a Jew, but his mother was a Gentile.
Is he a part of Israel?


3. A man's mother was a Jew, but his father was a Gentile.
Is he a part of Israel?


4. If I had a great grandfather who was a Jew, would that make me a part of Israel?


5. When it comes to Native American tribes, there is a standard to determine if a person is considered a member of the tribe.
How much Jewish DNA is required to make a person a part of Israel?


A simple "yes" or "no" will be fine on the first four questions.
A percentage would be fine on the last question.

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Please explain to me whatyour bove questions have to do with who Israel and the Church are! When are you going to grasp the simple act, that the Israeli nation except neither the New Covenant or Jesus as their Messiah, as NON-BELIEVERS Whereas the Church, consists of EVERYONE WHO ARE BELIEVERS in Jesus Christ nd have accepted the New Covenat of Grace.

There is NO OTHER Israel at this time, and the Church IS NOT Israel, and NEVER will be! That is a heresy and you cannot prove it from the Scriptures!


Quassr89


Quasr

BABerean2 said:

We have now confirmed that you cannot define a modern group of people called "Israel".
You seem to have no standard to rely upon.

You are attempting to remove the word "Israel" from Acts 2:36, and from Hebrews 8:6-13, because both of these passages connect "Israel" with the Church.

And then you claim that there is no connection between the word "Israel" and the Church, even though the New Covenant was spoken by Christ at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28, and we find the word Church in the passage below, which is about the New Covenant Church.


Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

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You have proven nothing except how much opinionated speculation you can spread all over. Prove by the Scriptures that all of us who belong to the body of Christ, His Church, belong to non-believing Israel In addition Show me by the Scriptures where Israel did not reject Jesus as their Messiah, and have not been decreed by God to go through Jacob's Trouble, the 70th week of Daniel, the seven years of tribulation, because of it!rch will go through the tribulation, since you claim it is Israel, who will go through it!


Quasar92

BABerean2 said:

There are so many errors in the claims above that I hardly know where to start.

First of all, anyone who reads Jeremiah 30:1-10 can easily see that the context of the "time of Jacob's trouble" occurred during the Babylonian captivity.

Secondly, since Daniel 9:24 provides a summary of the 70 weeks prophecy we can easily determine if Christ fulfilled Daniel 9:24 during His lifetime.
Based on Acts 10:38 and Hebrews 10:16-18, we know Christ was anointed by His Father and He did offer the final sacrifice for sin of the New Covenant. (Matthew 26:28)
We also know from Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18 that there was a period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. This period of time was the 70th week of Daniel. The angel Gabriel did not mention an antichrist or a "gap" of time in Daniel chapter 9. Therefore, the 490 years of the 70 weeks ran without stopping.

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023


There is no seven year tribulation period in the Bible. The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. This is confirmed by Christ returning in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19. The end comes at the 7th trumpet and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18. Chapter 12 contains a review of Church history, which includes the birth and death of the man-child, who is Christ.

Israel and the Church cannot be separated in Acts chapter 2 or Hebrews 8:6-13, no matter how hard you try. The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

All of Israel did not reject the Messiah as revealed by Peter's words on the Day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2. In Romans 11:1-5 Paul reveals that he is an Israelite and that a "remnant" of Israelites were faithful during his time, just like the 7,000 during the time of Elijah.

The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of faithful Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree. Those Israelites who reject the Messiah are broken off of the tree, but can be grafted back in through faith in Christ. Paul provides no path to salvation outside of the Olive Tree.

The Church will go through the tribulation period as revealed by those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant Church.


When a person comes to understand the New Covenant of Christ found in the scriptures below, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart.


Jer_31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—


Mat_26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Mar_14:24　 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.


Luk_22:20　 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.


1Co_11:25　 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."


2Co_3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


Heb_8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—


Heb_8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb_9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


Heb_12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

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Review those corrected errors you referred to in the above:

BAB2: There are so many errors in the claims above that I hardly know where to start.

Quasar92: Opinionated speculation comes from what authority to deny the Scripture refuting you?

BAB2: First of all, anyone w reads Jeremiah 30:1-10 can easily see that the context of the "time of Jacob's trouble" occurred during the Babylonian captivity.

Quasar92: False! Review the following for the proper interpretation:

13.4. Jacob’s Trouble and the Great Tribulation Commentary - A Testimony of Jesus Christ

BAB2: Secondly, since Daniel 9:24 provides a summary of the 70 weeks prophecy we can easily determine if Christ fulfilled Daniel 9:24 during His lifetime.
Based on Acts 10:38 and Hebrews 10:16-18, we know Christ was anointed by His Father and He did offer the final sacrifice for sin of the New Covenant. (Matthew 26:28)

Quasar92: Jesus brought in the attributes of Dan.9:24, but they HAVE OBVIOUSLY NOT been fulfilled yet, not will they, until Jesys has established His kingdom on earth.

Dan.9:24 “Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to finishdtransgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.e

BAB2: We also know from Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18 that there was a period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. This period of time was the 70th week of Daniel. The angel Gabriel did not mention an antichrist or a "gap" of time in Daniel chapter 9. Therefore, the 490 years of the 70 weeks ran without stopping.

Quasar92" Which is the epitome of allegorical spiritualized speculation. The prophecy of Daniel's 70 weeks, was given to him by the angel Gabriel, in 516 B.C., covering a fulfilled time frame from 445 B.C. through 70 A.D. 69 weeks of the prophecy have been fulfilled, covering a time span of 483 years [69 X 7 = 483]. Daniel's people referred to in the prophecy, was/is Israel. The Gospel of Jesus Christ was brought to Israel during Jesus first advent, before He was cut off in verse 26. The final 7 years of the 490 year prophecy HAS NOT yet taken place, which is identified as the 7 year tribulation, triggered by the man of lawlessness/the Antichrist, found in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8. Who confirms the firm agreement [covenant], sets up the abomination of desolation in the temple of God, and stops the sacrificing, in verse 27.

The primary reason the full 490 years of the prophecy did not run out, is for two major reasons: The return of Israel to once again become a nation, after 1.878 years in their diaspora; and for the entire church age, leading up to the rapture of it. The 70th week of Daniel, is Jacob's trouble, of Jer.20:7; the 7 year tribulation. Which will be preempted, immediately proceeded by the rapture of the Church.


The mathematics of Dan.9:24-27 is documented below:

Exactly 173,880 days from King Artaxerxes of Persia, decree of March 14,446 BC. [From Neh.2:1-8. Based on the 360 day Hebrew year. Which makes no difference whatever from a 365.2425 day year, when all the necessary corrections are made].

360 X 483 = 173,880 days.

1. 32 years [AD] X 365 days in our year = 11,680 days.
2. 445 years [BC] X 365 days in our year = 162,425 days.
3. Total 174,105 days divided by 365 = 477 years.
4. Plus 24 days between the date of the decree in 445 BC and Jesus cut-off in 32 AD = 477 years, 24 days
5. Subtract one year because there is no year zero between 1 BC and 1 AD. = 476 years, 24 days.
6. 476 years X 365 days = 173,740 days +24 = 173,764 Days
7. Add days of the leap years over 476 years. Divided by 4 = 119 days = 173,883 days
8. Subtract 1/128 Calendar year day for every solar year: Leap year omitted every 128 years.= -3 days = 173,880 days!

Which reveals the 360 day prophetic year of Israel is the very same as our present 365.2425 day year when all the corrections have been made to the latter.

The 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, of the final 7 years, is the Tribulation, or Jacob's Trouble [Jer.30:7.] which will conclude the 490 year prophecy decreed upon his people, with a 2,000 year parenthetic in between, that covers the entire church age!

Dan.9:27. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

BAB2: There is no seven year tribulation period in the Bible. The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. This is confirmed by Christ returning in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19. The end comes at the 7th trumpet and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18. Chapter 12 contains a review of Church history, which includes the birth and death of the man-child, who is Christ.

Quasar92: The expositor of eschatology knows and understands, the 70 weeks prophecy of Dan.9:24-27 pertain to 70 weeks of years, with each period of one week equals 7 years each! 70 X 7= 490.

BAB2: Israel and the Church cannot be separated in Acts chapter 2 or Hebrews 8:6-13, no matter how hard you try. The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Quasar92: Israel and the Church were NEVER a single entity, because they were each founded in two entirely separate time frames. Israel was founded thousands of years before the Church ever existed. The Church came into existence consisting of everyone who ever believes in Jesus, who's ministry did not begin until He was about 30 years of age, in about 30 A.D. The New Covenant of Grace, prophecied in Jer.31:31-34 was fulfilled by Jesus shed blood and death on a cross. Which became effective for everyone who came to believe in Jesus Christ, including Israelis/Jews and Gentiles alike. But the nation of Israel rejected God's offer of Grace, through their rejection of Jesus as their Messiah. Why do you think God allowed their temple and Jerusalem to be destroyed, and send them out all over the world in their diaspora for 1,878 years?

BAB1: All of Israel did not reject the Messiah as revealed by Peter's words on the Day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2. In Romans 11:1-5 Paul reveals that he is an Israelite and that a "remnant" of Israelites were faithful during his time, just like the 7,000 during the time of Elijah.

Quasar92: As was previously addressed, every person, including every Ieraeli who were sved at Pentecost, becfame members of Jesus Body, His Church! Not grafted into Israel, as you falsely believe. All believers are grafted into the ROOT...God's ELECT! Wgether Jew or Gentile. And ALL OF iSRAEL rejected Jesus as their Messiah, as both Biblical s well as secular history makes abundantly clear!


Quasar92

Hal A Peno said:

Quasar,
It's not speculation that in the New Covenant, there is no longer Jew or Gentile. That idea is repeated a few times in the NT. It remains like this until "the fulness of the gentiles comes."

Romans 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

When the consumation of the age comes, that changes and we will all serve Israel after the Lord returns in the Millennial kingdom.

For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
__________________________

The only reason you decline to accept that is, in Mathew 24 Jesus clearly states the gathering of the elect, i.e. CHRISTIANS occurs AFTER the tribulation. That immediately deems pretribulationism as false. So what your top guns in the pre-trib camp have done is claim there are two raptures and two returns of Christ. That still doesn't explain the biggest blunder of all, in the New Testament, the word elect always refers to Jesus, Christians, or angels not Jews.
We have been decreed to go through Jacobs trouble.

1 Thes. 3:3-4 That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

2 Thes. 1:4-10 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

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The new covenant of Grace was not fulfilled until the shed blood and death of Jesus on a cross. From Pentecost on, everyone, whether Jew or Gentile became members of the Body of Christ, His Church, The nation of Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah, together with the new covenant and will not recognize Jesus as their Messiah, until His second coming, according to Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5.


Quasar92

BABerean2 said:

Dan 9:24　 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.　


Act 10:38　 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.　


Heb 10:16　 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;　
Heb 10:17　 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.　
Heb 10:18　 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
　

Daniel 9:24 was fulfilled by Christ during the first century, as proven by the text above.


Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

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All three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27 is the Antichrist!

Dwight Pentecost addresses the argument of amillennialists who do not accept a literal 1000 year earthly reign of the Messiah and who do not accept a time gap between Daniel 9:26 and Daniel 9:27 writing that...

Amillenarians teach that Christ’s First Advent ministry was in the 70th “seven,” that there was no interval between the 69th and 70th “sevens,” and that the six actions predicted in Daniel 9:24 are being fulfilled today in the church. This view, however,

(a) ignores the fact that Da 9:26 says “after the 62 sevens,” not “in the 70th seven, ‘

(b) overlooks the fact that Christ’s ministry on earth was three and one-half years in length, not seven (Ed: This line of evidence is against the interpretation of some amillennialists who feel the "he" who makes a covenant with the many is the Christ rather than the Antichrist) , and

(c) ignores the fact that God’s six actions pertain to Daniel’s “people” (Israel) and His “Holy City” (Jerusalem), not the church. (Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., et al: The Bible Knowledge Commentary. 1985. Victor or Logos)

Click for a more detailed discussion of the rationale for the interpretation of the gap between the 69th and 70th weeks and the conclusion that the 70th has to be a yet future time period. As discussed in the explanatory notes it is not uncommon for prophetic passages to demonstrate a significant "pause" or "gap" between near and future fulfillments, and as discussed this is especially seen in the first and second comings of Christ.

Walvoord explains the interpretation of Daniel 9:27 this way...

If the expositor desires to follow the text meticulously, however, there is really no alternative but to declare the entire seventieth seven future, for there has been no seven-year period fulfilling the events of prophecy, however labored the interpretation. This is usually conceded by those who make the last seven years an indefinite period which allows for still future interpretation. (John Walvoord: Daniel: The key to Prophetic Revelation)

Daniel 9:24 have not been fulfilled. Some attempt to say that these 6 "goals" have been fulfilled in Christ’s death, but this is not a logical nor a reasonable interpretation. For example, to say that Israel ("your people) has finished the transgression and made an end of sin is not accurate, nor has everlasting righteousness been brought into existence (it will be but it is not at the present time). This point alone is strong evidence against the interpretation that the Seventy Sevens or 490 years are consecutive weeks and have been historically fulfilled. To be fair, the fulfillment of these 6 "goals" will only come about because of the foundation laid by Christ's having been "cut off", but at present they await a future fulfillment.

(2) TEMPLE SACRIFICES: Although Messiah's death in 33AD made sacrifices unnecessary, Temple sacrifices were not stopped until 70AD when the Temple was destroyed by the Romans under general Titus.

(3) TEMPLE DESTRUCTION: The "cutting off" of Messiah and the destruction of the city and the sanctuary (Temple) would have to have taken place before the end of the 490 years. Historically, Messiah was crucified in 33AD and Jerusalem and the Temple destroyed in 70AD (not in 40AD) and thus strongly argues against a consecutive interpretation of the seventy sevens.

Reginald Showers notes that...

Only if there were a gap of time between the end of the first sixty-nine sevens of years and the beginning of the seventieth seven of years could this destruction have taken place so late and still be within the scope of the 490 year prophecy. (The Most High God)

(4) MESSIAH CUT OFF "AFTER" NOT "DURING": Gabriel prophesied "then after the 62 weeks" (the 69 weeks) Messiah would be "cut off". He did not say this event would occur during the seventieth week.

Although I disagree with Robert H Gundry's post-tribulation stance, he does explain this point well noting that...

If the cutting off of the Messiah occurred in the middle of the seventieth week, it is very strange that the cutting off is said to be “after” the sixty-nine weeks (figuring the sum of the seven and the sixty-two weeks). Much more naturally the text would have read “during” or “in the midst of” the seventieth week, as it does in verse twenty-seven concerning the stoppage of the sacrifices. The only adequate explanation for this unusual turn of expression is that the seventieth week did not follow on the heels of the sixty-ninth, but that an interval separates the two. The crucifixion then comes shortly “after” the sixty-ninth but not within the seventieth because of an intervening gap. The possibility of a gap between the sixty-ninth and the seventieth weeks is established by the well-accepted OT phenomenon of prophetic perspective, in which gaps such as that between the first and second advents were not perceived (Ed: See Discussion of "Time Gap"). (Robert H. Gundry, The Church and the Tribulation Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1973)

AND HE WILL MAKE A FIRM COVENANT WITH THE MANY (Isaiah 42:6; 53:11; 55:3; Jeremiah 31:31, 32, 33, 34; 32:40, 41, 42; Ezekiel 16:60, 61, 62, 63; Mt 26:28; Ro 5:15,19; 15:8,9; Gal 3:13, 14, 15, 16, 17; He 6:13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18; 8:8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13; He 9:15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20,28; 10:16, 17, 18; 13:20,21) (Mt 27:51; He 10:4-22)

And he will make a firm covenant with the many - This monumental event will mark the beginning ("terminus a quo") of the Seventieth Week of Daniel!

Daniel 9:26). This is the conclusion reached by most conservative evangelical commentaries, who go on to identify him as the Little Horn (Antichrist) who "came up among the (10) horns" of the fourth beast (fourth kingdom ~ "Revived Rome") chapter 7 of Daniel (Da 7:8,11-note Da 7:20, 21-note).

It is interesting that both Christ and Antichrist are referred to as "prince" (synonymous with "king"), for the prefix "anti-" means the regal imposter is not only opposed to or against Christ, but "instead of" or a substitute for the real Christ.

We know that the prince's people (Rome) destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and can deduce that this coming prince has his ancestral roots in the ancient Roman Empire and is thus part of what is often referred to as "the revived Roman Empire", the final Gentile world government described in Romans 7 (see Da 7:7-note, Da 7:19-note). In the Revelation of Jesus Christ, John records this vision...

And he stood on the sand of the seashore. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems ("ten king stage" of the beast in Da 7), and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion (Ed: Note how this is the reverse of the sequence of same beasts in Da 7:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6-note - John is looking back in time and sees the leopard first = Greece, bear = Medo-Persia, Lion = Babylon). And the dragon (Satan) gave him (Antichrist) his power and his throne and great authority. (Notice how the term "beast" merges subtlety from a beastly kingdom to the king of that kingdom in the latter part of the verse) (Re 13:1-note; Re 13:2-note; see also study of The Beast; and Beasts, Heads, and Horns)

(2) CHRIST: Some such as Edward Young and Phillip Mauro interpret the "He" as a reference to the Messiah primarily because the entire prophecy is about the Messiah and the premise that there is no (to use their words) "future 'prince' making a covenant with" Israel. This interpretation makes little sense because the new covenant in His blood is an everlastingcovenant, not a seven year covenant and not a covenant which He will ever break. God is a covenant keeping God! How can the reference be to Christ when we have just been introduced to the prince who is to come which describes one out of the Roman empire? Christ did not come from the Roman Empire but from Israel. Furthermore, when did Christ make a firm covenant with many Jews for one week (seven year period)? And how can it be said of Christ that “in the midst of the week” He caused the sacrifices to cease? Sacrifices continued in the Temple some 40 years after Messiah was cut off, well past the 7 years of the 70th Week. Clearly, the "he" is not Christ.

Harry Ironside agrees that "He" is not the Messiah writing...

Ere closing I briefly notice a rather peculiar interpretation which is frequently given to the 27th verse. It is said that the Lord Jesus is Himself to be the prince that shall come who confirms the covenant for one week. His own crucifixion is supposed to be the event which caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. But neither chronologically nor doctrinally will this stand for a moment, if examined in the light of other scriptures. With whom did the Lord Jesus ever confirm a covenant for seven years? His precious blood is called ”the blood of the everlasting covenant;” not a covenant for one week of years. We may rest assured it is not Messiah at all, but the blasphemous prince who is yet to come, who will fulfil what is predicted in this verse.

How near this world may be to the actual entering upon all these things no man can say, but it is the part of wisdom to learn from the prophetic Scriptures, and to turn now to Him who alone can save; to own Him as Redeemer and Lord, and thus be certain of being caught up to meet Him when He comes in the clouds, ere the time comes for His righteous judgment to be poured out upon this poor world. (Daniel - H A Ironside)

Ray adds...

In deciding between the Messiah or the “prince to come” as the antecedent, Barnes contends “it is not reasonable to suppose that the latter is referred to, because it is said (Da 9:26) that the effect and the purpose of his coming would be to ‘destroy the city and the sanctuary.’ In other words Barnes is saying the prince is coming to make peace. He is wrong on two accounts. Da 9:26 says it is the people of the prince, not the prince himself, who execute the destruction. Too, he is implying it is reasonable to suppose the Messiah would bring about the devastation. To assume Da 9:27 deals with Christ is presumptuous, for that is the very question for which interpreters are seeking an answer. Lastly, it is not unthinkable a future leader would bring about such an agreement with Israel; people will do almost anything to have peace in the Middle East....Leupold and Keil are some of the few non-pre-millenarians who admit the “he” is the antichrist. (A Study of Daniel 9:24 - 27, Part III)

My post #38 refutes you!


Quasar92