Futurist Only What is the chronological order of Revelation?

[Timtofly]

As I understand Scripture, there are two second comings. Jesus comes at the beginning of Tribulation in secret as a thief in the night (or middle of tribulation or prior to the wrath called the pre-wrath rapture), to take the church out of the world in a secret rapture that only believers are aware of, then Christ comes in full glory as he describes in the Olivet Discourse to fight the battle of Armageddon and begin the 1000 year reign. The entire planet will witness Jesus physically descend on Mount Olive just as he said he woul return. At least this is the Futurist, Pre-millennial point of view. I have yet to decide whether the first coming is pre-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath. I cannot find consistent Scripture to support which view of these three is correct.

First coming:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
King James Version

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

See also: Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 16:15, Matthew 24:43, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 1 Thessalonians 5:4, 2 Peter 3:10 - English Standard Version

Second coming:
Mark 13:26:
“At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

Revelation 19:
"11Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood,c and His name is The Word of God.14The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. 15And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter.d He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Second Coming and rapture is the 6th Seal.

Armageddon is just a return after Satan's 42 months to kill those humans still alive.

The 6th Seal is to the Mount of Olives. Armageddon is to the valley of Megiddo.

 

[Sorn]

As I understand Scripture, there are two second comings. Jesus comes at the beginning of Tribulation in secret as a thief in the night (or middle of tribulation or prior to the wrath called the pre-wrath rapture), to take the church out of the world in a secret rapture that only believers are aware of, then Christ comes in full glory as he describes in the Olivet Discourse to fight the battle of Armageddon and begin the 1000 year reign. The entire planet will witness Jesus physically descend on Mount Olive just as he said he woul return. At least this is the Futurist, Pre-millennial point of view. I have yet to decide whether the first coming is pre-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath. I cannot find consistent Scripture to support which view of these three is correct.

First coming:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
King James Version

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

See also: Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 16:15, Matthew 24:43, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 1 Thessalonians 5:4, 2 Peter 3:10 - English Standard Version

Second coming:
Mark 13:26:
“At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

Revelation 19:
"11Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood,c and His name is The Word of God.14The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. 15And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter.d He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

I'm also of this view, though your statement could be further restated as "there are at least 2 second comings".

It may be that Christians have the view of the 2nd coming all wrong in what they think it means and does not mean. The typical view is that Jesus returns to Earth and does NOT return back to heaven after that, so that He returns to Earth and stays on Earth.

I know its semantics to an extent but perhaps the event/s should be viewed as the return of Jesus or the re-engagement of Jesus with the world in a much more hands on way.

So to give a illustrative, if perhaps a bit corny analogy. Think of your workplace, a co worker comes and goes on a daily basis. They come to their workplace in the morning and go home in the evening and repeat this regularly. So the activity consists of lots of comings and goings.
However if the co-worker then resigns, we say they are leaving, not just for the day but for good.
If after some years they once again take up a job at your workplace they are then said to be RETURNING, ie re-engaging with your particular workplace, even though upon their RETURN they will once again behave in a pattern of lots of comings and goings.

It's in this light that after an absence of at least 2000 years Jesus will again RETURN to engage with the world directly. But unlike last time that, as a mortal man he was limited to being here the whole of his 33 years, this time in His resurrected glorified body and in His FULL authority as 2nd in the trinity, He will move about as He pleases and deems fit to do so, which MAY include returning TO heaven as often and whenever He pleases and deems necessary.

Though this time He will predominantly be located on Earth as Earth will be His primary location from then on, His main domicile, at least once the tasks of re-engagement have been completed.
He is not locked out of heaven however and can return for what ever purpose He needs.

In such a situation, just like when a person is moving house or vacating a workplace, several trips are often required to accomplish the multitude of tasks before the move/relocation/leaving/returning is complete.

In short, do not put restrictions on how Jesus can act or move about. After an absence of at least 2000 years any hands on re-engagement is Him returning.

 

[Marilyn C]

They may be working on them but it will take a couple of decade before they are fully rolled out and then they need to be used widely and accepted widely. Only then can they then be co-opted for some nefarious purpose.

Hi Sorn,

Under normal circu,stances I would say `yes,` however what is planned is a complete collapse of our old economic system, to bring in the new IMF Lender of Last resort answer.

And when there is the hyper inflation and lack of main goods on the shelves, (later this year) then people will have to have vouchers, (as in WW 2 etc) though some countries have them now. Then with the stock market and other financial institutions in trouble them the cry will be for the new economic order.

Thus CBDC linked to the IMF who can print to their heart`s content and dole out to whoever is under their control. They have a timeline for this.

 

[Sorn]

Hi Sorn,

Under normal circu,stances I would say `yes,` however what is planned is a complete collapse of our old economic system, to bring in the new IMF Lender of Last resort answer.

And when there is the hyper inflation and lack of main goods on the shelves, (later this year) then people will have to have vouchers, (as in WW 2 etc) though some countries have them now. Then with the stock market and other financial institutions in trouble them the cry will be for the new economic order.

Thus CBDC linked to the IMF who can print to their heart`s content and dole out to whoever is under their control. They have a timeline for this.

View attachment 315237

Well, assuming your views pan out (which I don't think they will), its one thing to have a digital currency that gives the govt (or govts) more control than it/they has now & quite another to have a digital currency as some sort of worldwide antichrist/beast system. It will take time for all to be on board & agree on everything.

 

[Sorn]

in terms of what the next few years may look (inflation, shortages etc) like, this blog is a very good read
Newsletter - Zeihan on Geopolitics

https://www.youtube.com/c/ZeihanonGeopolitics

 

[Jamdoc]

Well, assuming your views pan out (which I don't think they will), its one thing to have a digital currency that gives the govt (or govts) more control than it/they has now & quite another to have a digital currency as some sort of worldwide antichrist/beast system. It will take time for all to be on board & agree on everything.

Do you know how many world leaders are currently using the slogan "Build Back Better" and where that slogan comes from?
If my hope wasn't in Christ I'd be utterly terrified.

Every world leader uttering that phrase? On board with the Davos plan.

 

[JulieB67]

Couldn't 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 be referring to the rapture of the church and Thhessaolians chapter 5 refer to the second coming visibly for all the world to see? Verse 2 seems to suggest that like the pre-tribulation rapture of the church, the post-tribulation coming of Christ to make war and defeat the beast, antichrist, and false messiah (the unholy trinity I've heard it called) also happens suddenly.

All of these verses should be read together. There were no chapters and Paul is continuing his train of thought-

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

He continues-

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

No secret rapture, sudden destruction to those unaware.

. Jesus comes at the beginning of Tribulation in secret as a thief in the night

So we see that the "thief in the night" is not secret at all.

 

[Marilyn C]

All of these verses should be read together. There were no chapters and Paul is continuing his train of thought-

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

He continues-

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

No secret rapture, sudden destruction to those unaware.



So we see that the "thief in the night" is not secret at all.

`But you brethren are NOT in DARKNESS that this day should over take you AS A THIEF.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

 

[JulieB67]

But you brethren are NOT in DARKNESS that this day should over take you AS A THIEF.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

The point is though is that it's not a "secret whisking away in the night to rapture believers away.
It only comes like a thief to those not on watch. It will not overtake those on watch and know the signs and the seasons. The signs are the ones that Christ first taught. We won't know the day or hour but we are to know the signs and seasons. That way the day will not overtake someone as a thief.

Those that aren't expecting him -the ones thinking peace and safety, sudden destruction will come upon them -meaning it's not a secret. Pretty much the opposite.

 

[Sorn]

Here is a good video supporting the view that upon His return Jesus will make several trips between Heaven and Earth

 

[Jamdoc]

The point is though is that it's not a "secret whisking away in the night to rapture believers away.
It only comes like a thief to those not on watch. It will not overtake those on watch and know the signs and the seasons. The signs are the ones that Christ first taught. We won't know the day or hour but we are to know the signs and seasons. That way the day will not overtake someone as a thief.

Those that aren't expecting him -the ones thinking peace and safety, sudden destruction will come upon them -meaning it's not a secret. Pretty much the opposite.

TBH I have a feeling you might be (pleasantly) surprised (if it happens in our lifetime) since none of the signs Jesus gave were of asteroid impacts, demonic locust armies, water turning to blood, etc, but you expect to go through that part.
Unless Jesus just kinda sorta neglected to mention 7 trumpets and bowls and all kinds of wrath of God type stuff happening between the sun and moon darkening and when the angels would gather the elect.

But I don't think Jesus omitted those details
I think they're not part of what believers will experience.
The birth pains, the abomination of desolation, and the Great Tribulation (again, persecution, the war on the saints by Antichrist) yes...
But the trumpets and vials?
No.
We get out sooner than that.
We're not appointed to the vials filled with the wrath of God.

 

[JulieB67]

The birth pains, the abomination of desolation, and the Great Tribulation (again, persecution, the war on the saints by Antichrist) yes...

I agree this is what I think they'll experience, yes. I don't think the Locust armies are actual locusts, etc. I think they are symbolic for Satan's camp, his angels, etc who look exactly like us. It's all about deceiving the nations and going after and persecuting the bride of Christ.

We're not appointed to the vials filled with the wrath of God.

I believe this as well.

 

[DavidPT]

But the trumpets and vials?
No.
We get out sooner than that.
We're not appointed to the vials filled with the wrath of God.

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame .
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

What I have underlined, as can be seen in the text, John says that in a context involving the vials of wrath, and that he says it between the 6th and 7th vial. Why would he do that if the coming in verse 15 has already occurred at this stage, that it occurred before the first vial is poured out?

This is similar to my arguments involving 'this generation' in the OD, that to interpret it correctly, it matters when Jesus said that in relation to other things He said, and in what context He said in it. It should be pretty much the same logic here. It matters where John said what he said in verse 15, and in what context he said in it. Do you have a reasonable explanation as to why John said what he said between the 6th and 7th vial if the coming has already taken place much earlier?

 

[Timtofly]

I agree this is what I think they'll experience, yes. I don't think the Locust armies are actual locusts, etc. I think they are symbolic for Satan's camp, his angels, etc who look exactly like us. It's all about deceiving the nations and going after and persecuting the bride of Christ.

I believe this as well.

Jude 1:6

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

They are not here to persecute the church. They are here to judge those who are wicked. The church will already be in Paradise.

The 5th Trumpet is the first woe. It is to all mankind. It is the release of those angels to judge the world.

 

[Jamdoc]

I agree this is what I think they'll experience, yes. I don't think the Locust armies are actual locusts, etc. I think they are symbolic for Satan's camp, his angels, etc who look exactly like us. It's all about deceiving the nations and going after and persecuting the bride of Christ.



I believe this as well.

So your ticket is to allegorize the trumpet events as just more things that men do, rather than events men have no control of like an asteroid impact, a supervolcano, and the debris in the air from those darkening the skies?
The 7 trumpets mostly sound like disasters that men have no control over, while the seals are things that men do.

and remember, the 5th seal specifically they cannot target those sealed by God (which are at this time, the 144,000, I don't try to apply a finite number specified to be tribes of Israel to be Christians as a whole, John made a distinction between the tribes of Israel, and the great multitude of all tribes, tongues and nations, don't throw that distinction out to lump them all in together and see the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel as "a synonym for the Church") so it absolutely cannot be an allegory of persecution by the wicked. The 5th seal is persecution OF the wicked by the demons.

 

[Jamdoc]

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame .
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

What I have underlined, as can be seen in the text, John says that in a context involving the vials of wrath, and that he says it between the 6th and 7th vial. Why would he do that if the coming in verse 15 has already occurred at this stage, that it occurred before the first vial is poured out?

This is similar to my arguments involving 'this generation' in the OD, that to interpret it correctly, it matters when Jesus said that in relation to other things He said, and in what context He said in it. It should be pretty much the same logic here. It matters where John said what he said in verse 15, and in what context he said in it. Do you have a reasonable explanation as to why John said what he said between the 6th and 7th vial if the coming has already taken place much earlier?

To be honest, it's not the best answer.

But among most of the passages we see the response of those in the wrath of God is to not repent and to curse God.
But in between the 6th trumpet and 7th we have
Revelation 11

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

So we have those in Jerusalem, that don't die from the earthquake and survived until this point repenting and praising God. Different from the response of the rest of the people which had been cursing God.
So between the 6th and 7th vial, it could be the same thing. Specifically those of the tribes of Israel which are saved AFTER He appears, but I don't think gentiles will get saved after.
the 144,000 that are sealed to God and protected from the 5th trumpet are specifically of the tribes of Israel, I do not apply that image to the Church, because John made a distinction between them and the great multitude.

I think that Gentile Christian conversions are done at the 6th seal, but Jewish conversions just get started.
It's a little too Dispy for me normally, but John makes a distinction.

 

[JulieB67]

They are not here to persecute the church

They are after the the saints, the set aside ones. That is the bride of Christ.


Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Same event as this after Satan is cast down,

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


This is the same gospel that Christ says must be published before the end comes in Matthew 24.

 

[Jamdoc]

They are after the the saints, the set aside ones. That is the bride of Christ.


Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Same event as this after Satan is cast down,

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


This is the same gospel that Christ says must be published before the end comes in Matthew 24.

how do you allegorize this as meaning persecution of the Church?

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

 

[Timtofly]

They are after the the saints, the set aside ones. That is the bride of Christ.


Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Same event as this after Satan is cast down,

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


This is the same gospel that Christ says must be published before the end comes in Matthew 24.

The verses you quoted have been the case for the last 1992 years. The angels being loosed at the 5th Trumpet has not happened yet.

 

[JulieB67]

how do you allegorize this as meaning persecution of the Church?

It's about deception, the entire world will be deceived except the elect/saints. They know the truth, the rest of the world will buy into the deception.

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

But the persecution comes from the devil throwing some into prison but they overcame him by their testimony and loved not their lives to the death.

This is the "evil" day that Paul talks about,

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Part of that armour is the word of God which is what they use to overcome him -the word of their testimony.

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."


The torment to the rest of the world is like the torment of when a scorpion stings. Symbolic of how the rest of the world will be paralized/trapped.

Luke 21:35 "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."


Those who know the truth -who Antichrist really is cannot be deceived.

And the only ones that don't worship the antichrist/Satan are the ones chosen before the foundation of this world,

Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

It doesn't say all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, it says all whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:1 "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus; and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:"

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"


The set aside ones/saints and the remnant that are Christians that are alive at that time that were chosen before the foundation of the world will give their testimony with the help of the HolySpirit/blood of the lamb and that's how they overcome. Christ states those that endure to the end the same shall be saved.

The verses you quoted have been the case for the last 1992 years. The angels being loosed at the 5th Trumpet has not happened yet.

You might not believe the devil is going to be cast out and trying people but it's been written and will go down as Revelation 12 states.