Futurist Only What is the chronological order of Revelation?

[Jeffwhosoever]

I'm nearing the 7 bowls of wrath and see some possible overlap with the 7 Trumpets. I found a video that depicts the 7 Seals proceeding the 7 bowls of wrath and 7 trumpets, where each bowl is in parallel with each trumpet. In other words, the 7 seals are sequental and 7 bowls and 7 trumpets are sequential, but each bowl = trumpet, so Trumpet 1 happens at the same time as the 1st bowl, 2nd trumpet = 2nd bowl, and so on. So for Futurists only, what is the chronological order of the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowls of wrath? Also, does the Lord's opening of the first seal represent the start of the 7 year period or the mid point of tribulation? Finally, I can't determine the timing of the rapture, but it seems clear it is either pre-trib or mid-trib. Which do you believe, and why?

Ideally I'd like to see the chronology in charts or any visual aide, but feel free to write paragraphs too.

Also if you know of a video that explains the chronology of Revelation that you found expecially insightful, please list that as well.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

This a crude depiction of one proposed chronological sequence that seems intriguing.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Another viewpoint:

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The seven seals are the entire book.
The seventh seal has the 7 trumpets.
The seventh trumpet has the 7 bowls. (Meaning the seven bowls are also in the seventh seal)

 

[Matt5]

I'm nearing the 7 bowls of wrath and see some possible overlap with the 7 Trumpets. I found a video that depicts the 7 Seals proceeding the 7 bowls of wrath and 7 trumpets, where each bowl is in parallel with each trumpet. In other words, the 7 seals are sequental and 7 bowls and 7 trumpets are sequential, but each bowl = trumpet, so Trumpet 1 happens at the same time as the 1st bowl, 2nd trumpet = 2nd bowl, and so on. So for Futurists only, what is the chronological order of the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowls of wrath? Also, does the Lord's opening of the first seal represent the start of the 7 year period or the mid point of tribulation? Finally, I can't determine the timing of the rapture, but it seems clear it is either pre-trib or mid-trib. Which do you believe, and why?

Ideally I'd like to see the chronology in charts or any visual aide, but feel free to write paragraphs too.

Also if you know of a video that explains the chronology of Revelation that you found expecially insightful, please list that as well.

I think the seals are chronological.

There are a couple of general problems:

1. What is a seal in general?
2. Who is a Christian?

I think one key purpose of the Mark of the Beast is to determine who is a Christian. Those who refuse the Mark and believe in Jesus are Christians. Good Christians who take the Mark are no longer Christians.

So doesn't the rapture have to wait until the Mark decides who is a Christian?

What makes something a seal? Shouldn't there be some definition that makes something a seal? Here are some rules that I have set up:

1. We have to see them open.
2. They have to help us in some way.

Definition of seal: A big shock during the end-time period that acts as a marker.

The end-times open with a seal and the 7th seal begins the tribulation period. The seals cannot begin at the start of the tribulation because there would be no time to react. They would be mostly useless. If they're gonna be helpful then we need time to react.

9/11 looks a lot like the 2nd seal.

There's more of course, but you won't like it.

 

[Timtofly]

Most people just leave out the 7 Thunders as if they never happen.

The order is just how John states:

7 seals
6 trumpets
7 thunders
1 trumpet
7 vials

The only time frame is the 42 months between the start of the 7th Trumpet and the 7 vials.

There are no times frames period for any of these events. All we know is the locust from the 5th Trumpet hang around and torment humans for 5 months. It is not said if this torment has to end before the 6th Trumpet or will overlap the 6th Trumpet and continue on into the 7 Thunders.

 

[PSUseagull]

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Since all of the interpretations given so far are private interpretations, all of them must be taken with a grain of salt. What Peter is saying, in effect, is that prophecy must be interpreted by a prophet, otherwise it is a private interpretation. Since modern Christian churches don't believe a prophet exists on the earth today, none of them are qualified to give anything more than a guess as to what Revelation means.
I have lived long enough and gone to enough lectures about Revelation to see that the interpretation of the book changes every time there is a major change in the political power structure of the nations.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Most people just leave out the 7 Thunders as if they never happen.

The order is just how John states:

7 seals
6 trumpets
7 thunders
1 trumpet
7 vials

The only time frame is the 42 months between the start of the 7th Trumpet and the 7 vials.

There are no times frames period for any of these events. All we know is the locust from the 5th Trumpet hang around and torment humans for 5 months. It is not said if this torment has to end before the 6th Trumpet or will overlap the 6th Trumpet and continue on into the 7 Thunders.

So you think these are all individual events and none are parallel accounts of the same event? I'm just wondering because some of the events seem so close to describing the same thing, though there are slight variations. I'm not arguing, just asking. My first take is that I agree with you, but I'm trying to be certain that these are 21 individual events, sequential, and linearly progressive chronological events, with no 2 of the 21 describing the same step.

My impression is that God is trying His best to save who will turn from evil and believe in the Lord. We do know there are likely millions saved post rapture due to the reference to the "those who came out of the Great Tribulation".

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Since all of the interpretations given so far are private interpretations, all of them must be taken with a grain of salt. What Peter is saying, in effect, is that prophecy must be interpreted by a prophet, otherwise it is a private interpretation. Since modern Christian churches don't believe a prophet exists on the earth today, none of them are qualified to give anything more than a guess as to what Revelation means.
I have lived long enough and gone to enough lectures about Revelation to see that the interpretation of the book changes every time there is a major change in the political power structure of the nations.

Yeah I hear you on the books that all claim to have "the signs". It seems to have started with Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet earth, and yet none of us really know truely. The bookstores have made a fortune on books that proclaim to have interpreted the signs, and I've seen literally a hundred such books at least over the past 40 years. But I will point out that some Christians believe that prophecy continue even now, but it is my own personal belief that modern prophets are merely interpreting Scripture, not new true revelations from God, or otherwise the Canon would not be closed and such prophecies would have to be added to Scripture. But there are some Christians that think such prophecy does continue, so it isn't entirely accurate to imply all Christian churches don't believe prophets exist today. I think even some orthodox denominations are included.

"However, there’s great debate among Christians about whether prophecy still exists today. Christ-honoring people on both sides disagree with whether supernatural gifts like prophecy have ceased. And we may never find complete agreement on this side of Heaven. It’s obvious I don’t believe prophets still exist simply because their function has been fulfilled in the Bible, but people with greater knowledge, humility, and love for God’s Word would disagree with me."
Do Prophets Still Exist Today?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I think the seals are chronological.

There are a couple of general problems:

1. What is a seal in general?
2. Who is a Christian?

I think one key purpose of the Mark of the Beast is to determine who is a Christian. Those who refuse the Mark and believe in Jesus are Christians. Good Christians who take the Mark are no longer Christians.

So doesn't the rapture have to wait until the Mark decides who is a Christian?

What makes something a seal? Shouldn't there be some definition that makes something a seal? Here are some rules that I have set up:

1. We have to see them open.
2. They have to help us in some way.

Definition of seal: A big shock during the end-time period that acts as a marker.

The end-times open with a seal and the 7th seal begins the tribulation period. The seals cannot begin at the start of the tribulation because there would be no time to react. They would be mostly useless. If they're gonna be helpful then we need time to react.

9/11 looks a lot like the 2nd seal.

There's more of course, but you won't like it.

In a pre-tribulation rapture view, no Christians will be subject to the mark of the beast, because the Church will be removed at the beginning of the 7 years. Those who are left can deny the mark and die of starvation or as martyrs, and still be saved by refusing to follow the beast and accepting Christ as their Savior. It seems that even through the entire 7 years it remains possible, though increasingly unlikely, for people to still come to their senses and be saved, but at a terrible price.

Back on topic, does everyone who is a Futurist believe that the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Bowls of Wrath are 21 independent events and no two are the same descriptions of similar events as some of the examples I posted above suggest?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

The seven seals are the entire book.
The seventh seal has the 7 trumpets.
The seventh trumpet has the 7 bowls. (Meaning the seven bowls are also in the seventh seal)
View attachment 315015

OK that is an interesting interpretation. What is this chart based upon?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

For example, here is one type of evidence supporting a sequential view: https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/16/16-3/16-3-pp149-158_JETS.pdf

Note in particular "1. The rise in intensity of the judgements is more consonant with a sequential, rather than a simultaneous, view"

Here is an example of a parallel comparison:

SEVEN TRUMPETS & SEVEN BOWLS PARALLEL STUDY

 

[SavedByGrace3]

OK that is an interesting interpretation. What is this chart based upon?

I made the chart from cells in Excel. It is based on my reading of Revelation.
First I assume something that most people do not, and that is the 7 seals are the entire book of Revelation. The seventh seal includes what follows, and the 7th trump includes what follows. Sometimes it appears there are duplicate events happening in seals in trumps and bowls. In reality, it is the same event being reported in, say, a trumpet and a bowl... or a seal and a trump. I read what it says will happen in the days of the sounding of the seventh trumpet and it relates many of the things that are going to also happen at the conclusion of the seventh bowl. Again, it is the same events simply being reported first in the trump, and then in the bowl.
Thanks

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I made the chart from cells in Excel. It is based on my reading of Revelation.
First I assume something that most people do not, and that is the 7 seals are the entire book of Revelation. The seventh seal includes what follows, and the 7th trump includes what follows. Sometimes it appears there are duplicate events happening in seals in trumps and bowls. In reality, it is the same event being reported in, say, a trumpet and a bowl... or a seal and a trump. I read what it says will happen in the days of the sounding of the seventh seal and it relates many of the things that are going to also happen at the conclusion of the seventh bowl. Again, it is the same events simply being reported first in the trump, and then in the bowl.
Thanks

Awesome. Thanks for your explanation. You can probably figure out my charts are screen shots made in Excel too. Our Thursday men's bible study has been studying the book of Revelation now for 14 months and thus far we are through chapter 15, so it isn't exactly going fast but wow are we learning a lot. Thanks again for the insight. When I started looking around I found a ton of different opinions so I quickly got lost for all the different views of these series and parallel combinations of 7 seals, trumpets, and bowls of wrath, so I made a chart so I could see the differences then thought why not see what others here believe, so I welcome everyone's insight. Revelation is not a very easy book to comprehend. But we have been blessed by our journey in trying to gain understanding, and I have more books left to read and may take a formal seminary class in eschatology in the future! Prior to the start of our journey we were not even aware of other points of view such as Idealism, Preterism, and Historicism, so we spent a long time trying to understand those views, and our study is focused on Steve Gregg's book Revelation - 4 Views, Revised and Updated which I highly recommend to anyone willing to consider other perspectives.

 

[Jamdoc]

I'm nearing the 7 bowls of wrath and see some possible overlap with the 7 Trumpets. I found a video that depicts the 7 Seals proceeding the 7 bowls of wrath and 7 trumpets, where each bowl is in parallel with each trumpet. In other words, the 7 seals are sequental and 7 bowls and 7 trumpets are sequential, but each bowl = trumpet, so Trumpet 1 happens at the same time as the 1st bowl, 2nd trumpet = 2nd bowl, and so on. So for Futurists only, what is the chronological order of the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowls of wrath? Also, does the Lord's opening of the first seal represent the start of the 7 year period or the mid point of tribulation? Finally, I can't determine the timing of the rapture, but it seems clear it is either pre-trib or mid-trib. Which do you believe, and why?

Ideally I'd like to see the chronology in charts or any visual aide, but feel free to write paragraphs too.

Also if you know of a video that explains the chronology of Revelation that you found expecially insightful, please list that as well.

The best way to describe it is.. cut Revelation in half, at book 12.
The reasoning for this in scripture is:

Revelation 10

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The 7th trumpet is the last event in the Chronology. You don't have Jesus coming to claim the kingdoms of the world as the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ... and then turn it over to Satan to give to the beast in Revelation 13:2.

So as I see in your charts, you have basically what I see too. I don't think the trumpets and vials are the same, but they do seem to be connected and are both the wrath of God, where the seals are things that God has restrained on men from doing the desires they have always wanted to do.

Seals 1-5 restraint taken away from wicked men, particularly the beast in seal 5, and the wickedness they've always wanted to do.
Seal 6, restraint taken away from Jesus, the God-man, from doing what He has wanted to do, to return, and receive His people unto Himself.
Seal 7, restraint taken away from Jesus, to execute His wrath on the Earth. Something He has always wanted to do, but is restrained from doing.

Luke 12

49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

in other words "I wish I was already coming in Judgement".

So every seal is on men, they are restraint from God.

but the trumpets and vials are wrath from God.

also in cutting the book in half you have 2, consistent parallel narratives... a time of troubles caused by men, resulting in war against the saints (Great Tribulation), followed by Jesus in the Clouds (6th seal, Revelation 14:14-20), followed by the saints in heaven rejoicing (Revelation 7 and 15), followed by the wrath of God, and followed by the establishment of Christ's Kingdom on Earth (Revelation 11 at the 7th trumpet, and Revelation 16 at the 7th vial and Revelation 19)

 

[DavidPT]

This a crude depiction of one proposed chronological sequence that seems intriguing.
View attachment 315009

Let's start with trumpet 1 and bowl 1, and assume that they are parallel events, which I'm assuming that that is what the chart is trying to convey.

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.


Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


In order for these to be parallel events this means they have to already have the mark of the beast, and already be worshiping his image, prior to the first trumpet sounding. It is during the 42 month reign of the beast when his mark is being enforced. One would then need to prove that the 42 month reign of the beast is already underway before the first trumpet sounds. Does that contradict any of the other trumpets if we have the 42 month reign of the beast already underway before the first trumpet sounds? I think that scenario contradicts other trumpets, but if others think it doesn't, I guess they need to show how it doesn't.

It doesn't seem reasonable then, that the trumpets and vials run parallel with each other. As to the seals, that's a little more complicated. What I notice, for example, during the 5th seal, the martyrs are crying out for vengeance and told to wait a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. And that I take this little season to be involving the 42 month reign of the beast(Revelation 13).

After that 42 months are fulfilled, it is then the time of the 6th seal, where I see that involving the vials of wrath recorded in Revelation 16. I also see the 6th seal happening during the 7th trumpet since both accounts mention God's wrath.

 

[Timtofly]

So you think these are all individual events and none are parallel accounts of the same event? I'm just wondering because some of the events seem so close to describing the same thing, though there are slight variations. I'm not arguing, just asking. My first take is that I agree with you, but I'm trying to be certain that these are 21 individual events, sequential, and linearly progressive chronological events, with no 2 of the 21 describing the same step.

My impression is that God is trying His best to save who will turn from evil and believe in the Lord. We do know there are likely millions saved post rapture due to the reference to the "those who came out of the Great Tribulation".

I think I pointed out 28 events. First 7 deal with the church. The next set of events deals with Israel. After that God deals with the Nations. Yes God is longsuffering and even gives humans a chance during the last 42 months. But the last 7 vials are not God's mercy, but the winepress of God's wrath.

Not sure why two events would be doubled.

 

[Sorn]

Suppose that a pre-trib rapture position is true and that further the time between the rapture and the start of the 7 year tribulation is potentially 20 to 40 years. Would that make it easier to organize or fit the seals, trumpets, bowls & thunders?

 

[Jamdoc]

Let's start with trumpet 1 and bowl 1, and assume that they are parallel events, which I'm assuming that that is what the chart is trying to convey.

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.


Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


In order for these to be parallel events this means they have to already have the mark of the beast, and already be worshiping his image, prior to the first trumpet sounding. It is during the 42 month reign of the beast when his mark is being enforced. One would then need to prove that the 42 month reign of the beast is already underway before the first trumpet sounds. Does that contradict any of the other trumpets if we have the 42 month reign of the beast already underway before the first trumpet sounds? I think that scenario contradicts other trumpets, but if others think it doesn't, I guess they need to show how it doesn't.

It doesn't seem reasonable then, that the trumpets and vials run parallel with each other. As to the seals, that's a little more complicated. What I notice, for example, during the 5th seal, the martyrs are crying out for vengeance and told to wait a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. And that I take this little season to be involving the 42 month reign of the beast(Revelation 13).

After that 42 months are fulfilled, it is then the time of the 6th seal, where I see that involving the vials of wrath recorded in Revelation 16. I also see the 6th seal happening during the 7th trumpet since both accounts mention God's wrath.

See what I wrote above.. divide Revelation in half at Revelation 12 and see 2 consistent parallel narratives going in the same order but focusing on different details.

if you believe that at the 7th trumpet Jesus claims the Kingdoms of this World as His Kingdoms forever and ever.. and then.... hands control back to Satan to give authority to the beast? I don't know what to say.