Futurist Only What is the chronological order of Revelation?

[Jamdoc]

I just don't understand how people think the seals are actions/events They are signets/stamps. They are a basic summary of events that will happen. They start off with "come and see"...




Christ returns at the 7th trump (farthest out, time no longer etc) so that would already make the 6th seal finishing up with everything. The seals cover the entire tribulation. That's what I mean about the seals are knowledge a person is to be "sealed with", stamped with.

It goes in a sequential order matching with Matthew 24, and the 6th seal, lines up with when Jesus said He'd come in the clouds. Fact is, the people of the earth run for bunkers and ask the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the FACE of He who sits on the throne.
This is, Christ is visible to them.
and we've been over how silly it is to see the 7th trumpet judgement to be the last trumpet Paul referred to.
Paul referred to this
Zechariah 9

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

It is an angel, not Christ that blows the 7th trumpet in Revelation.
But it is God who blows the Trumpet that Paul refers to.

To prove it? 1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

That's not an angel blowing a trumpet, that' God blowing the trumpet. It's Christ who blows the trumpet. That is what Paul is referring to.
That is what is in the written Revelation of God at the time Paul taught.
Revelation was not in the written word of God at the time Paul wrote to the Corinthians or Thessalonians.
But Zechariah was.

and this is not just a cosmetic difference.
Understand this

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Jesus reaps, and those are not thrown into the wrath of God. Then an angel reaps, and those are put through the wrath of God.

Jesus reaps those that are His, it is the Angel's job to deliver judgement and wrath.
It is Angels who blow the trumpets, it is Angels who pour the vials.
It is Jesus who raptures the saints. It is He who receives us unto Himself.

 

[Sorn]

I agree. The temple that the Antichrist will desecrate will have a temporary sanctuary building of the dimensions of the tent of the meeting in the wilderness that traveled with the children of Israel in the Exodus. The size was 15 ft by 30 ft.

Why, wouldn't a megalomaniac evil god want to be in a grandiose temple building, befitting his stature, when he declares himself to be god?

 

[JulieB67]

It goes in a sequential order matching with Matthew 24, and the 6th seal, lines up with when Jesus said He'd come in the clouds. Fact is, the people of the earth run for bunkers and ask the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the FACE of He who sits on the throne.

Yes, the seals match up with Matthew 24, Christ lays out the tribulation as does the seals. The disciples ask for signs of the end of the age and his "coming".

This is, Christ is visible to them.

That's because he's coming, evidenced by the very next verse in Matthew 24,

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

The four winds are representative of the 4 corners of the earth. He will gather his elect at that time. That is the harvest. And there's only one gathering of the elect.


Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."


At the 7th trump, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That happens at the 7th trump as evidenced by this very verse. That happens upon Christ's return.

This also happens at that time,

Revelation 11:18 "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

The nations are angry because they are about to be judged, this can only happen if Christ has just returned. Until then they are thinking "peace and safety" (fake peace brought on by Antichrist/Satan.

Again I've pointed out that this is the very same event,


Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

and we've been over how silly it is to see the 7th trumpet judgement to be the last trumpet Paul referred to.

Silly for you. But last trumpet is the farthest out. You're assuming they didn't know about the trumps but Christ has foretold them all things and Paul is a second witness. We aren't privy to everything they were taught.

It is an angel, not Christ that blows the 7th trumpet in Revelation.
But it is God who blows the Trumpet that Paul refers to.

It's called the trump of God because again it's the 7th, the last and and the one that Christ returns and time will no longer be for this world age.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the seals and trumps.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, the seals match up with Matthew 24, Christ lays out the tribulation as does the seals. The disciples ask for signs of the end of the age and his "coming".

That's because he's coming, evidenced by the very next verse in Matthew 24,

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

The four winds are representative of the 4 corners of the earth. He will gather his elect at that time. That is the harvest. And there's only one gathering of the elect.


Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."


At the 7th trump, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That happens at the 7th trump as evidenced by this very verse. That happens upon Christ's return.

This also happens at that time,

Revelation 11:18 "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

The nations are angry because they are about to be judged, this can only happen if Christ has just returned. Until then they are thinking "peace and safety" (fake peace brought on by Antichrist/Satan.

Again I've pointed out that this is the very same event,


Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

Silly for you. But last trumpet is the farthest out. You're assuming they didn't know about the trumps but Christ has foretold them all things and Paul is a second witness. We aren't privy to everything they were taught.

It's called the trump of God because again it's the 7th, the last and and the one that Christ returns and time will no longer be for this world age.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the seals and trumps.

The problem with this theory is that the 7th Trumpet ends the Second Coming event. It does not start the Second Coming. The Trumpets then do not sound in reverse order after the 7th Trumpet sounds.


You are leaving out the fact that between the 6th Seal (the actual Second Coming) there is still the 7th Seal, 6 Trumpets, and 7 Thunders. These all are events that happen when Jesus as Prince is on earth. Jesus gathers the lost sheep of Israel with the help of the angels. This gathering by the angels is not instantaneous. I happens over time. It happens during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. The Thunders covers the wheat and tares Jesus taught in Matthew 13.

The 7th Trumpet is announcing the final harvest has been accomplished. The Second Coming was at least 5 months before the 7th Trumpet, as the torment of those coming out of the pit lasted 5 months. Trying to cram the whole Second Coming in a few minutes of time, just will not work physically nor according to the witness of John himself who was there, writing all these events down.

 

[JulieB67]

You are leaving out the fact that between the 6th Seal (the actual Second Coming) there is still the 7th Seal, 6 Trumpets, and 7 Thunders. These all are events that happen when Jesus as Prince is on earth.

Well, that's where we differ. I don't believe Christ returns until the 7th trump. If he returns sooner, you have him here during the tribulation of Antichrist/Satan.

There's nothing to cram, there's the tribulation of the end times, day of Christ which is also the day of vengeance which occurs at the 7th trump ushering in the 1000 years. It all happens within that time frame.

You believe differently which is fine. I'm ok as well with my beliefs.

 

[Timtofly]

Well, that's where we differ. I don't believe Christ returns until the 7th trump. If he returns sooner, you have him here during the tribulation of Antichrist/Satan.

There's nothing to cram, there's the tribulation of the end times, day of Christ which is also the day of vengeance which occurs at the 7th trump ushering in the 1000 years. It all happens within that time frame.

You believe differently which is fine. I'm ok as well with my beliefs.

No. Satan and the FP are introduced after the 7th Trumpet already started. The 7th Trumpet is interrupted in the middle of this week of celebration. There is no 42 month period prior to the 7th Trumpet. The 42 month period causes the 7th Trumpet to be put on hold.

So the 7th Trumpet sounds for 4 days. Then interrupted. The last 3.5 days of the 7th Trumpet is when the 2 witnesses are laying dead in Jerusalem. The 7th Trumpet stops sounding at the end of the battle of Armageddon. This battle is the one hour, 5pm to 6pm that ends the week of the 7th Trumpet. This is the one hour the 10 kings join Satan to fight Jesus coming on a white horse. The 7th Trumpet is a week of days, and is Daniel 9:27. The 42 months of utter desolation is when the celebration stops and the Millennium is put on hold for 42 months.

The 7th Trumpet is the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant. Revelation 10:6-7. Daniel's 70 weeks are up, time is up. The 7th Trumpet is the completion of those 70 weeks.

But there may be a 42 month extension, or not.

 

[JulieB67]

No. Satan and the FP are introduced after the 7th Trumpet already started.

You believe those events are laid out in chronological order. I don't. Again, I believe the seals are a summary. And the chapters that follow are events within the trumps.

The actual events play through the trumps with Christ returning at the 7th. Those are my beliefs. And I've seen nothing that makes me differ on those beliefs.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm nearing the 7 bowls of wrath and see some possible overlap with the 7 Trumpets. I found a video that depicts the 7 Seals proceeding the 7 bowls of wrath and 7 trumpets, where each bowl is in parallel with each trumpet. In other words, the 7 seals are sequental and 7 bowls and 7 trumpets are sequential, but each bowl = trumpet, so Trumpet 1 happens at the same time as the 1st bowl, 2nd trumpet = 2nd bowl, and so on. So for Futurists only, what is the chronological order of the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowls of wrath? Also, does the Lord's opening of the first seal represent the start of the 7 year period or the mid point of tribulation? Finally, I can't determine the timing of the rapture, but it seems clear it is either pre-trib or mid-trib. Which do you believe, and why?

Ideally I'd like to see the chronology in charts or any visual aide, but feel free to write paragraphs too.

Also if you know of a video that explains the chronology of Revelation that you found expecially insightful, please list that as well.

If the point of Revelation was to give a precise chronological order of events, then John could have done a much better job than that. Revelation forms a complex chiastic pattern and the second half of chiasms mirrors the first half, which can throw off someone who is trying to get a chronological order out of it.

 

[Jamdoc]

Well, that's where we differ. I don't believe Christ returns until the 7th trump. If he returns sooner, you have him here during the tribulation of Antichrist/Satan.

There's nothing to cram, there's the tribulation of the end times, day of Christ which is also the day of vengeance which occurs at the 7th trump ushering in the 1000 years. It all happens within that time frame.

You believe differently which is fine. I'm ok as well with my beliefs.

The trumpets are the wrath of God, and the Vials are the wrath of God, they are not "tribulation"
Tribulation is persecution by men, it is acts caused by men.
The faulty understanding and having the trumpets and vials be "Tribulation" is why both Pre trib and post trib are way off base.
Problem is, because you've decided to be hyperliteral about it being a single 24 hour day, you're required to allegorize a LOT more scripture.
and the funny thing is "the day" or "the hour" is often a figure of speech. You hyperliteralize 1 thing (and the wrong thing at that) and base an entire doctrine off of it even if it requires allegorizing everything else. It's missing the forest for the trees.

I'm at a loss for words when even pointing out how Isaiah uses "the day" and "the year" interchangeably doesn't get you to realize that that's not the detail you should be literal about.
In Isaiah 63, Isaiah witness in a very similar way that we see Him in Revelation 19.. His clothes already stained in blood. Jesus says that there were NONE with Him. But in Revelation 19 the armies of heaven are at His back.
This detail is significant.
because it explains something.
That prior to Revelation 19.. Jesus has been on Earth treading the winepress of His wrath. That prior to Armageddon and the saints catching up with Him, Jesus has been alone on earth treading the winepress.
So He had to have actually come sooner

as OP pointed out.. I believe there are 2 parallel Narratives where the second coming on the clouds is in Revelation 6:12-17, and Revelation 14:14-20, followed by the wrath of God.. and ending with the ushering in of the Millennial Kingdom in Revelation 11:15-19, and at Armageddon in Revelation 19.
There's a sequence of events, time continues to pass after Jesus returns, it is not one day.

Isaiah 26:19-21 has the resurrection occurring, and then Isaiah telling us to take shelter till the indignation passes.
The resurrection (and hence the rapture) takes place just before the wrath of God, consistently.
and Revelation 6:17 and Revelation 14:19 both signify the beginning of the wrath of God, and Revelation 15:1 specifies that yes, the vials are the wrath of God. You can't just duck around and say "oh that's tribulation, the wrath is the single day event at the end"

 

[JulieB67]

The trumpets are the wrath of God, and the Vials are the wrath of God, they are not "tribulation

I didn't say the trumps are tribulation, I said that the tribulation happens "within" the trumps. The vials are definitely the wrath of God.

You act as if I have to reach for that conclusion but it is very simple for me. And I'm not the only one with those beliefs.

I don't believe the Lord's day is a 24 hour period. I believe it is a 1000 year period but I believe Christ returns on that first day to usher it in as well as God's wrath. Christ's return and God's wrath happen in the same time frame. 1st Thessalonian's 5 declares it. People will be thinking peace and safety and then sudden destruction comes upon them. That's God's wrath.

If we read the 1st Thessalonians scriptures, they all read together, the subject doesn't change. There were no chapters then,

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Same subject, Christ returns, he comes like a thief for those not watching. He doesn't return any sooner than this.



The chapters are in different chronological order, especially 12. That's why you have the 7th angel sounding twice, etc.

And the mountains and islands being described twice as being moved, etc (earthquake), once in the seals and once at the end. Same event.

Only 19-22 are in order because we see that the Beast and FP are already in the LOF. But as I said, you have different events within the trumps and the 7th sounding twice, meaning it's the same ending but different subjects like the 2 witnesses are being described. The actual tribulation of Antichrist Satan is within the 5 trump and so on. Christ has shortened that time for the elect's sake.


Again, I'm comfortable in my beliefs as you are your's.

 

[Jamdoc]

I didn't say the trumps are tribulation, I said that the tribulation happens "within" the trumps. The vials are definitely the wrath of God.

You act as if I have to reach for that conclusion but it is very simple for me. And I'm not the only one with those beliefs.

I don't believe the Lord's day is a 24 hour period. I believe it is a 1000 year period but I believe Christ returns on that first day to usher it in as well as God's wrath. Christ's return and God's wrath happen in the same time frame. 1st Thessalonian's 5 declares it. People will be thinking peace and safety and then sudden destruction comes upon them. That's God's wrath.

If we read the 1st Thessalonians scriptures, they all read together, the subject doesn't change. There were no chapters then,

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Same subject, Christ returns, he comes like a thief for those not watching. He doesn't return any sooner than this.



The chapters are in different chronological order, especially 12. That's why you have the 7th angel sounding twice, etc.

And the mountains and islands being described twice as being moved, etc (earthquake), once in the seals and once at the end. Same event.

Only 19-22 are in order because we see that the Beast and FP are already in the LOF. But as I said, you have different events within the trumps and the 7th sounding twice, meaning it's the same ending but different subjects like the 2 witnesses are being discribed. The actual tribulation of Antichrist Satan is within the 5 trump and so on. Christ has shortened that time for the elect's sake.


Again, I'm comfortable in my beliefs as you are your's.

Yes but the first day of the Return is in Revelation 6, and 14, not 11 and 19.
There are 2 separate events. There's the coming in the clouds, and then a battle on the ground that ushers in the Kingdom. Time passes between.
Zechariah 12, and Zechariah 14.
Revelation 6, and Revelation 11
Revelation 14, and Revelation 19

the details are different to where they can't be the same thing. Zechariah 14:1-7 indicates that it's evening time and it's during twilight, neither bright nor dark that the battle takes place, but Matthew 24, and Revelation 6 have it as being the sun and moon are darkened, and Amos 8:9 tells us that that will happen at noon.

You'd almost be able to say "well yes, Revelation 6:12 takes place at noon that day, but Revelation 11:15 takes place at the evening of the same day" ... but....
the 5th trumpet takes 5 months, so at least 5 months pass between the 6th seal EVENT yes, it is an event, a 1 time thing it is not an ongoing "generality" over "the 7 year tribulation".. and the 7th trumpet.

and here's the part you really really miss.
The Great Tribulation does not happen "in the time of the trumpets" The Great Tribulation is OVER before the first Trumpet is blown

Matthew 24:29

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6:12

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

anything happening after 6th seal is not Tribulation.
the Trumpets are given out to the angels at the 7th seal, and begin to be sounded half an hour later (and I'd agree THAT takes place on the same day Jesus appears in the clouds.. half an hour after Jesus returns.. the first trumpet is blown and 1/3 of the trees are burned up and all the green grass is burned up.. sudden destruction)

seeing it the way I do gives 2 consistent parallel narratives..
to see it the way you do involves chopping it up into tiny pieces and trying to piece it together like a puzzle, rearranging chronology completely like a Quentin Tarrantino movie.

 

[Timtofly]

That prior to Revelation 19.. Jesus has been on Earth treading the winepress of His wrath. That prior to Armageddon and the saints catching up with Him, Jesus has been alone on earth treading the winepress.

I agree Jesus is already on earth, but not alone. The 144k are His disciples, and the angels are harvesting the souls from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The Blood is figurative, and even the winepress are figurative for the whole process. Souls are being sent to their eternal places. Death, perhaps even the LOF, and eternal life and the angels are the transportation from point A to point B. Could even be through time itself. But if not then the sea of glass and they come back at Armageddon with Christ the Prince. But all these are separate from the church which was already glorified and waiting in Paradise. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming bringing Jesus to earth, and the church being glorified and settled in Paradise.

 

[Jamdoc]

I agree Jesus is already on earth, but not alone. The 144k are His disciples, and the angels are harvesting the souls from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The Blood is figurative, and even the winepress are figurative for the whole process. Souls are being sent to their eternal places. Death, perhaps even the LOF, and eternal life and the angels are the transportation from point A to point B. Could even be through time itself. But if not then the sea of glass and they come back at Armageddon with Christ the Prince. But all these are separate from the church which was already glorified and waiting in Paradise. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming bringing Jesus to earth, and the church being glorified and settled in Paradise.

well Isaiah 63 makes it clear

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

I don't know what exactly the 144k are doing or where they are during this, but they're not there to help Jesus dish out the wrath of God.

 

[Sorn]

I agree Jesus is already on earth, but not alone. The 144k are His disciples, and the angels are harvesting the souls from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The Blood is figurative, and even the winepress are figurative for the whole process. Souls are being sent to their eternal places. Death, perhaps even the LOF, and eternal life and the angels are the transportation from point A to point B. Could even be through time itself. But if not then the sea of glass and they come back at Armageddon with Christ the Prince. But all these are separate from the church which was already glorified and waiting in Paradise. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming bringing Jesus to earth, and the church being glorified and settled in Paradise.

When did he get here?

 

[JulieB67]

There's the coming in the clouds, and then a battle on the ground that ushers in the Kingdom.

That would make Christ returning to Heaven and then returning back once more. Just because the saints aren't listed in certain verses doesn't mean they don't return with him.

He's comes with clouds but he does land and will step on the mount of Olives just like he left.

Revelation 19:11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

He's still in Heaven at this point

Revelation 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

These are the saints he brings with them. Christ only returns one more time, it's "a coming" not comings, never multiple. And there are other verses that state he's coming with his saints. Notice the saints are following him. He's not already on earth at this point.

I Thessalonians 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

He returns with his saints and the rest that are alive at his coming are gathered back to him. He does not return alone.

Jude 14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,"

and here's the part you really really miss.
The Great Tribulation does not happen "in the time of the trumpets" The Great Tribulation is OVER before the first Trumpet is blown

Satan arrives in the 5th trump, the locust army are his (fallen angels, demons, etc) Chapter 9 is just another description of what will happen, more symbolic than others though.

Revelation 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit "

Same event as this,

Revelation 6:13 "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

And this,

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

 

[Jamdoc]

When did he get here?

He means that by the 7th Trumpet Jesus was already on Earth. Not currently.
The dispute in Chronology is 7th trumpet being the return (due to misunderstood use of "the last trump", based on a modern perspective rather than the perspective of the audience Paul was writing to and what written revelation from God they had available, which did not include Revelation), where I'm opposing that by showing that in Isaiah 63, which brings the same image of Jesus as Revelation 19, which people also interpret as "the second coming", to show that by the time that happens, Jesus has already been on earth, doing the wrath of God, all alone (before the saints come to meet Him at Armageddon).

which boils down to a dispute which hinges on a hyperliteral interpretation of "that day" or "the day of the Lord" where some people, particularly post tribs and amillennials, see the wrath of God as being a single 24 hour event. Forcing this interpretation requires making Revelation be totally not in Chronological order, just kind of chopped and screwed like a "trap" rapper's mixtape.
When we're talking Chronology of Revelation.. some people see it as 1-22 in Chronological order. They see the 7th trumpet declaring the world is the kingdom of God and His Christ, establishing His rule forever and ever.. and then... as a first act, giving control back to Satan to give control to the beast. Somehow that is what they believe happens. People of all eschatalogical positions do this.

Another view of Revelation chronology is basically taking the book, splitting it in half at Chapter 12 and seeing 2 parallel narratives. That's mostly gonna be pre-wrath.

Another view of Revelation chronology is to see 7 sets of the same thing, making the 7th seal be nothing but silence after the 6th seal Return of Jesus and instant nuke of the entire world (this view on chronology hyperliteralizes "day of the Lord" to be a single 24 hour period), and makes the trumpets a second retelling of the 7 seals, Revelation 12-14 being a third retelling, Revelation 15-16 (the vials) a 4th retelling, Revelation 17 and 18 being a 5th retelling, Revelation 19 being a 6th retelling, and Revelation 20 being a 7th retelling. It doesn't matter that details are different, because they see it all as allegory to the world being instantly nuked when Jesus returns, so who cares if one version has carrion birds feeding on corpses, what that really symbolized is the consuming fire of God nuking the whole planet all at once or whatever it is they think everything is a symbol of. Some post trib are like this but particularly amillennialists since they see everything as allegory anyway, and once you go down that rabbit hole you're a cousin to preterists that say it already all happened just "spiritually" and was referring to the end of the old covenant. But I digress.

and finally.. the other view of Revelation Chronology based on hyperliteral interpretation of "the Day of the Lord" as a 24 hour period.. where there really is no Chronology, everything is just a broad overview with no timing, directed by God, with Quentin Tarrantino assisting. Most views do interpret some passages like Revelation 10, and Revelation 17 as being Parenthetical.. but this view holds it basically ALL as Parenthetical. It also heavily allegorizes things like the trumpets and vials, because the literal interpretation messes with their literal interpretation of a single 24 hour day.

 

[Sorn]

He means that by the 7th Trumpet Jesus was already on Earth. Not currently.
The dispute in Chronology is 7th trumpet being the return (due to misunderstood use of "the last trump", based on a modern perspective rather than the perspective of the audience Paul was writing to and what written revelation from God they had available, which did not include Revelation), where I'm opposing that by showing that in Isaiah 63, which brings the same image of Jesus as Revelation 19, which people also interpret as "the second coming", to show that by the time that happens, Jesus has already been on earth, doing the wrath of God, all alone (before the saints come to meet Him at Armageddon).

which boils down to a dispute which hinges on a hyperliteral interpretation of "that day" or "the day of the Lord" where some people, particularly post tribs and amillennials, see the wrath of God as being a single 24 hour event. Forcing this interpretation requires making Revelation be totally not in Chronological order, just kind of chopped and screwed like a "trap" rapper's mixtape.
When we're talking Chronology of Revelation.. some people see it as 1-22 in Chronological order. They see the 7th trumpet declaring the world is the kingdom of God and His Christ, establishing His rule forever and ever.. and then... as a first act, giving control back to Satan to give control to the beast. Somehow that is what they believe happens. People of all eschatalogical positions do this.

Another view of Revelation chronology is basically taking the book, splitting it in half at Chapter 12 and seeing 2 parallel narratives. That's mostly gonna be pre-wrath.

Another view of Revelation chronology is to see 7 sets of the same thing, making the 7th seal be nothing but silence after the 6th seal Return of Jesus and instant nuke of the entire world (this view on chronology hyperliteralizes "day of the Lord" to be a single 24 hour period), and makes the trumpets a second retelling of the 7 seals, Revelation 12-14 being a third retelling, Revelation 15-16 (the vials) a 4th retelling, Revelation 17 and 18 being a 5th retelling, Revelation 19 being a 6th retelling, and Revelation 20 being a 7th retelling. It doesn't matter that details are different, because they see it all as allegory to the world being instantly nuked when Jesus returns, so who cares if one version has carrion birds feeding on corpses, what that really symbolized is the consuming fire of God nuking the whole planet all at once or whatever it is they think everything is a symbol of. Some post trib are like this but particularly amillennialists since they see everything as allegory anyway, and once you go down that rabbit hole you're a cousin to preterists that say it already all happened just "spiritually" and was referring to the end of the old covenant. But I digress.

and finally.. the other view of Revelation Chronology based on hyperliteral interpretation of "the Day of the Lord" as a 24 hour period.. where there really is no Chronology, everything is just a broad overview with no timing, directed by God, with Quentin Tarrantino assisting. Most views do interpret some passages like Revelation 10, and Revelation 17 as being Parenthetical.. but this view holds it basically ALL as Parenthetical. It also heavily allegorizes things like the trumpets and vials, because the literal interpretation messes with their literal interpretation of a single 24 hour day.

I see, well i would put myself, currently, in the 2 versions in two halves of the book camp, i.e. the 2 parallel narratives. Not that I've done an intensive study of Revelation. I would agree that the 'Day of the Lord' is not a literal 24 hour period though. Which of the positions you summarized well is where you stand?

 

[Jamdoc]

I see, well i would put myself, currently, in the 2 versions in two halves of the book camp, i.e. the 2 parallel narratives. Not that I've done an intensive study of Revelation. I would agree that the 'Day of the Lord' is not a literal 24 hour period though. Which of the positions you summarized well is where you stand?

I split it in half. The narratives are consistent that way, in the same order, without things like Jesus taking control of the world then giving it back to Satan for 42 months.
I'm also very firmly pre wrath, or post trib-pre wrath, or "6th seal rapture" as it gets called sometimes.

 

[Jamdoc]

That would make Christ returning to Heaven and then returning back once more. Just because the saints aren't listed in certain verses doesn't mean they don't return with him.

He's comes with clouds but he does land and will step on the mount of Olives just like he left.

Revelation 19:11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

He's still in Heaven at this point

There's two assumptions here.
#1 that He can only come once. But as there being more than 1 coming being veiled in scripture and missed by many people, including the disciples in Jesus' day, I don't think that necessarily means there's only 2. Now I'm not holding that Jesus raptures, then returns to heaven, and then comes back a 3rd time. But I'm also not ruling it out.. He's God.
and
#2 that He wasn't already on Earth. John said he saw Jesus on a white horse, not that he was riding down from heaven on one even though I know that's the popular imagery. But let's take a look at the context.

Revelation 19

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Let's unpack a few details here before moving on.
#1. Where is John when writing this? He's witnessing things in Heaven.
#2. God is on the throne, but it is not specified to be Jesus or the Lamb. The Lamb is mentioned in context of the Marriage of the Lamb, but not specified to be sitting on the throne or present in Heaven, the focus is actually on the bride, having made "herself" ready.
#3. There's a great multitude of saints in heaven at this time. I'd argue this is the same multitude in Revelation 7, the raptured saints, but that is an assumption of my own. But the basic fact is, there's a multitude of saints in heaven.

Now let's continue, now remember the perspective John is viewing this from, he's in heaven. Not on Earth.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

John is in heaven, heaven opens up, and John sees Jesus. That means, John is looking down at Earth and sees Jesus, already having his clothes stained in blood from the winepress of God's wrath. No it's not representative of the blood he shed for us. Isaiah 63 is clear:

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

So John sees the heavens opened, and from Heaven, looking down on Earth, He sees Jesus with His robes dipped in blood, the blood of His enemies who He's killed during the wrath of God.

You have probably always seen it, and I know many people do, as John seeing this from an Earth, looking up at heaven being opened up perspective. But it's the opposite, John is in heaven, looking down at Earth.

Revelation 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

These are the saints he brings with them. Christ only returns one more time, it's "a coming" not comings, never multiple. And there are other verses that state he's coming with his saints. Notice the saints are following him. He's not already on earth at this point.

That'd be evidence that the rapture had taken place beforehand, and, while they're following Him, they aren't riding Pegasus' down from the sky. I know that's the popular imagery, but the scene transitioned to Earth, it said they were in heaven, as in, they were in heaven prior, now they're on Earth. Again, John was in heaven looking down, that's what he saw, Jesus on Earth on a white horse, and the multitude that had previously been in heaven following Him.
No mention of flying horses riding down from heaven.

I Thessalonians 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

He returns with his saints and the rest that are alive at his coming are gathered back to him. He does not return alone.

Isaiah 63 said He tread the winepress of God's wrath alone.

Satan arrives in the 5th trump, the locust army are his (fallen angels, demons, etc) Chapter 9 is just another description of what will happen, more symbolic than others though.

Revelation 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit "

Same event as this,

Revelation 6:13 "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

And this,

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

See how much allegorizing you have to do to make a square peg fit into a round hole?

Supernatural events are not part of the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is all persecution and acts of men.
Seals 1-5 can be the Great Tribulation, I'd say it's pretty much seal 5 that is the Great Tribulation, that's what parallels the beast making war on the saints.

Once the 6th seal hits, it's no longer Great Tribulation it's Wrath of God and the Lamb.

 

[Douggg]

Why, wouldn't a megalomaniac evil god want to be in a grandiose temple building, befitting his stature, when he declares himself to be god?

To get the animal sacrifices going as quickly as possible, a temporary sanctuary building will be built.