Futurist Only What is the chronological order of Revelation?

[Timtofly]

Wait a minute... Tim, where are you getting that?

Daniel 8 is about the little horn - at the timeof the end - stopping the daily sacrifice and committing the transgression of desolation.

btw, Antiochus, in Daniel 11:31, prefigured what the abomination of desolation would be, not the transgression of desolation, by placing a statue of Zeus in the temple.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

___________________________________________________________________________

The transgression of desolation comes first. The Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

Then he is killed for it.

Then comes back to life, becoming the beast.

Then the image of him as the beast made and placed on the temple mount, as the abomination of desolation.

As I posted. That all happened in Antiochus Epiphanes reign of terror over Jerusalem. It is not going to repeat in a similar temple, the same way. Antiochus Epiphanes was a type. But what is still future will totally eclipse what Antiochus Epiphanes did.

The AC is not killed and brought back to life. The AC is not even human. It is the image, Satan's Adam, which will be toted as way more superior to the first Adam God created. But still a beast in God's perspective.

The wounded head is about a political system, not a human being.

The image does not become the beast. The image is made to the beast... basically an idol of him.

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Satan will incarnate that image in order to be worshiped.

Tim, I want you to look at scripture, and find what happens to that image (statue)...

We know that it is going to be made. So what happens to it ?

Revelation 13:1 and 3

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

The sea is humanity. The kingdoms, human kingdoms. Not really a single human killed, yet the image is an image in human likeness. It is the FP that comes out of this political turmoil.

Satan is the second beast. So there are two beast, later called Satan and the FP. Then there is the image brought to life by Satan, later referred to as "the beast". In Revelation 19:20 we see what happens to the FP and the beast. They are cast into the LOF.

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Satan is bound in the pit for 1,000 years, then joins them in the LOF.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes, they probably are preliminary, by about 50 or 60 years maybe.

Cept Russia isn't Gog. Meshech and Tubal are in Turkey (and so is Magog), Gog is the Chief Prince of Meshech and Tubal
I know people like to claim that "oh Turkey's a Russian Ally! That counts!" but.. no.. Turkey's NATO, Turkey blocked the Bosphorus straits to Russian warships, and also blocked Russian flights carrying troops to Syria.
They might get along sometimes, but I think it's vastly overplayed by people who think Russia is Gog.
Russia is Gog people also think Russia currently controls Kyiv, it's a weird kool aid that ignores that the Russians themselves withdrew their northern front and refocused their efforts on the east and south of Ukraine. But Turkey is not so buddy buddy with Russia that Putin can be considered it's "prince" unless Putin invades Turkey..
and being NATO, an attempt by Putin to control Turkey would result in WW3 instantly, and then we'd nuke each other to smithereens and remove ourselves mutually from any consideration on the world stage.

... frankly.. I think it the most likely reason neither the US or Russia are in bible prophecy.
.. and it would tie in with the 4th seal.

 

[Douggg]

The AC is not even human. It is the image, Satan's Adam, which will be toted as way more superior to the first Adam God created. But still a beast in God's perspective.

The people of the world in Revelation 13:14 make the image - not Satan.

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

So the image can't be "Satan's Adam". There is nothing in the Bible about "Satan's Adam".

Satan is the second beast. So there are two beast, later called Satan and the FP. Then there is the image brought to life by Satan, later referred to as "the beast". In Revelation 19:20 we see what happens to the FP and the beast. They are cast into the LOF.

Tim, the beast exists first... then the image made of him.

 

[Timtofly]

Cept Russia isn't Gog. Meshech and Tubal are in Turkey (and so is Magog), Gog is the Chief Prince of Meshech and Tubal
I know people like to claim that "oh Turkey's a Russian Ally! That counts!" but.. no.. Turkey's NATO, Turkey blocked the Bosphorus straits to Russian warships, and also blocked Russian flights carrying troops to Syria.
They might get along sometimes, but I think it's vastly overplayed by people who think Russia is Gog.
Russia is Gog people also think Russia currently controls Kyiv, it's a weird kool aid that ignores that the Russians themselves withdrew their northern front and refocused their efforts on the east and south of Ukraine. But Turkey is not so buddy buddy with Russia that Putin can be considered it's "prince" unless Putin invades Turkey..
and being NATO, an attempt by Putin to control Turkey would result in WW3 instantly, and then we'd nuke each other to smithereens and remove ourselves mutually from any consideration on the world stage.

... frankly.. I think it the most likely reason neither the US or Russia are in bible prophecy.
.. and it would tie in with the 4th seal.

Russia is sitting better geographically than the US. Except the throne of God is somewhere North. It could be sitting on Russia?

 

[Sorn]

Russia is sitting better geographically than the US. Except the throne of God is somewhere North. It could be sitting on Russia?

I think he meant that either US or Russia will cease to exist, at least as we know them today, around end time events

 

[Sorn]

Cept Russia isn't Gog. Meshech and Tubal are in Turkey (and so is Magog), Gog is the Chief Prince of Meshech and Tubal
I know people like to claim that "oh Turkey's a Russian Ally! That counts!" but.. no.. Turkey's NATO, Turkey blocked the Bosphorus straits to Russian warships, and also blocked Russian flights carrying troops to Syria.
They might get along sometimes, but I think it's vastly overplayed by people who think Russia is Gog.
Russia is Gog people also think Russia currently controls Kyiv, it's a weird kool aid that ignores that the Russians themselves withdrew their northern front and refocused their efforts on the east and south of Ukraine. But Turkey is not so buddy buddy with Russia that Putin can be considered it's "prince" unless Putin invades Turkey..
and being NATO, an attempt by Putin to control Turkey would result in WW3 instantly, and then we'd nuke each other to smithereens and remove ourselves mutually from any consideration on the world stage.

... frankly.. I think it the most likely reason neither the US or Russia are in bible prophecy.
.. and it would tie in with the 4th seal.

Yes, i agree. Russia is unlikely to be Gog or Magog, certainly not anytime soon, if ever as per the video link i posted

 

[Jamdoc]

Russia is sitting better geographically than the US. Except the throne of God is somewhere North. It could be sitting on Russia?

Won't matter
couple thousand warheads crossing between the US, UK, France, and Russia will render those countries, and likely a lot of the northern hemisphere irrelevant in the world. Their electrical grids would be fried, and their agriculture practically dead so their survivors will just be trying not to starve.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes, i agree. Russia is unlikely to be Gog or Magog, certainly not anytime soon, if ever as per the video link i posted

Yeah wasn't sure because of the image on the thumbnail, I know Nelson doesn't believe Russian Gog now but it may have been an older video where he did. Sorry. Didn't have time to watch a video at the time, had to go to a Rheumatology appointment so that's a 100 mile drive each way.

 

[Jamdoc]

I think he meant that either US or Russia will exist, at least as we know them today, around end time events

It's certainly one way to shift the eyes of the world away from the west and back onto Israel.

 

[Timtofly]

I think he meant that either US or Russia will exist, at least as we know them today, around end time events

Since all the continents and all the mountains are going to move around at the Second Coming, seems all the land will be placed back into one landmass. There is no longer any need for division as Christ will rule over an undivided earth. At the end of the 70th week, there will not even be any mountains. Revelation 16:20

"And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

 

[Sorn]

It's certainly one way to shift the eyes of the world away from the west and back onto Israel.

I meant to say '... cease to exist...'

 

[Sorn]

Since all the continents and all the mountains are going to move around at the Second Coming, seems all the land will be placed back into one landmass. There is no longer any need for division as Christ will rule over an undivided earth. At the end of the 70th week, there will not even be any mountains. Revelation 16:20

"And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

I've always thought mountains and islands were just plain evil! Good riddance of them!

Though surely if everything congeals into 1 large land mass wouldn't the islands be rushing towards Jesus rather than away, I mean rushing apart will make them further apart unless of of course they 'rush' so much they go round the world and all join up on the other side!

 

[Jamdoc]

I meant to say '... cease to exist...'

I understood what you meant.
and that's what I see happening as likely.
endtimes are about Israel, not about Europe, the US, or Russia.
but between those 3 and China? that's the dominant focus of the world right now
that's not gonna hold on forever.

 

[Timtofly]

I've always thought mountains and islands were just plain evil! Good riddance of them!

Though surely if everything congeals into 1 large land mass wouldn't the islands be rushing towards Jesus rather than away, I mean rushing apart will make them further apart unless of of course they 'rush' so much they go round the world and all join up on the other side!

Those Islands certainly did not turn into lakes or water.

The Second Coming is this verse:

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

They did not flee here. They came together by moving closer together.

It is said that the Himalayas were formed from India pushing up against Asia. So what does it mean when mountains move around? That the land stretches back out? So at the start mountains are moving along with the continents. By the time all is said and done, the land will be joined together and stretched out, evidently. Should be lakes but no islands on them.

 

[Sorn]

Those Islands certainly did not turn into lakes or water.

The Second Coming is this verse:

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

They did not flee here. They came together by moving closer together.

It is said that the Himalayas were formed from India pushing up against Asia. So what does it mean when mountains move around? That the land stretches back out? So at the start mountains are moving along with the continents. By the time all is said and done, the land will be joined together and stretched out, evidently. Should be lakes but no islands on them.

I'm of the opinion that those words are symbolic of the majesty of the presence of Christ in full authority. I don't really think Pangea is going to be recreated. Also to have lakes you generally need rivers which means you then also need mountains or decent hill ranges etc.

 

[JulieB67]

Chronology of Revelation

This is pretty much the order I see as well. Although you laid it out much better than I ever could. I especially liked your "Lord's day" references in chapter 1 and how they compare to the 7th trump and the appearance of Christ in chapter 19. Spot on.

 

[Sorn]

Yeah wasn't sure because of the image on the thumbnail, I know Nelson doesn't believe Russian Gog now but it may have been an older video where he did. Sorry. Didn't have time to watch a video at the time, had to go to a Rheumatology appointment so that's a 100 mile drive each way.

Another big takeaway from that video is that Nelson argues the Gog/Magog battle is actually the battle of Armageddon.

 

[Jamdoc]

Another big takeaway from that video is that Nelson argues the Gog/Magog battle is actually the battle of Armageddon.

which I agree with.
Nelson fits my eschatology most, but I'm not as willing to make claims like each seal takes 1 year exactly and exactly 1 year 10 days of God's wrath... you know? I leave those dates more open ended. and I think he's stretching for his idea of each of the letters to the churches being 1 of the seals in order.

 

[Sorn]

I had read somewhere that the Jews hold a Jewish religious law that all of the work on the temple mount cannot be done with modern heavy machinery because it would make noise.

Well clearly noise would have been made when it was built. even if its the noise of hand tools and pack animals hauling blocks. Some noise is unavoidable.

These days the machinery could be electric so that would eliminate most if not all machinery noise.
Alternatively the blocks and other components could be made off site by automated &/or heavy machinery and then transported and put together on the site, which incidentally may not be the temple mount, but instead right next to it.

Also apparently the Temple Institute estimate a 1 year construction period.
In video go to 21:25 time mark.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

LOL now that I've made it to my Bible Knowledge Commentary which is a rather extensive 2 volume set, it states that while there are similarities between the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, there are too many differences to describe the same events. Even most preterists agree and they think the 7 trumpets were for Jerusalem and 7 bowls were Rome, though they argue both were fulfilled by AD70. Other chapters in Revelation are not in perfectly chronological order and some are more panoramic descriptions of different parts of the 7 year tribulation, but the 7 Seals comes first, then 7 Trumpets, then 7 Bowls, then the Lord returns. It was cool to have reached this conclusion before my commentary basically laid out all the same arguments I came up with independently. I'm not claiming to be a bible scholar like the men who wrote my commentary, only that an objective, independent view led to the exact same conclusion that the 3 sequences of judgements are sequentlal and chronologically progressive. Its also amazing to go through Steve Gregg's book and read the Preterist explanations for these 21 different events and how they have to use so much symbology to get around the fact that none of these events have ever occurred before. I can also see how the Olivet discourse can confuse someone and think the answer to it is that there is a first occurrence of the events that did in fact happen in AD 70, and a subsequent future fulfillment in full of everything the Lord described, some of which was fulfilled in AD 70, and some which is yet to come as explained by John in Revelation.

Futurism isn't the only possible interpretation of eschatology, but it just is the best at fitting reality and allows for a grammatical-historical literal interpretation which is preferred hermeneutics over having to make everything symbolic. In addition, most scholars now think Revelation was written during the reign of Domitian, not Nero, so assuming they are right, Revelation can only be a prophecy of events yet to be occur. And Futurism fits what is going on in the world, with the world turning darker, not more Christian. By 2050 Muslims will outnumber Christians, assuming the world doesn't end before then. Also, while the persecution of Jews was terrible in AD70, it can't be said to be worse than the Holocaust of WW2, in my opinion, which defeats Scripture saying its the worst that will ever happen. Finally, Jerusalem is supposed to be growing more and more Christian per Postmillenial and Amillenialism, and the exact opposite is happening. Out of 7 million Jews, less than 150,000 Christians remain, and that number is dropping every year.