Futurist Only What is the chronological order of Revelation?

[DavidPT]

Maybe the institution of marriage will change, especially if people are going to live for hundreds of years, you better really get on with your life partner!

I'm not convinced procreation will still be taking place post the 2nd coming, but I am convinced there will be a literal thousand years following the 2nd coming. To this day not one single mortal person has ever lived an entire thousand years. I then see the thousand years being when this happens, a mortal person living an entire thousand years, which means they are spared death at the 2nd coming and are still alive a thousand years later. If we toss procreation into the mix, and if someone has children 500 years into the thousand years, for example, their children never get to live an entire thousand years in that case, they only get to live 500 years and a little season.

Some insist there is death during the thousand years, that based on what it says in Isaiah 65. But how can their be death during the thousand years when Revelation 20 shows that death doesn't happen until after the thousand years, meaning when they are devoured by fire from God out of heaven?

 

[Sorn]

I'm not convinced procreation will still be taking place post the 2nd coming, but I am convinced there will be a literal thousand years following the 2nd coming. To this day not one single mortal person has ever lived an entire thousand years. I then see the thousand years being when this happens, a mortal person living an entire thousand years, which means they are spared death at the 2nd coming and are still alive a thousand years later. If we toss procreation into the mix, and if someone has children 500 years into the thousand years, for example, their children never get to live an entire thousand years in that case, they only get to live 500 years and a little season.

Some insist there is death during the thousand years, that based on what it says in Isaiah 65. But how can their be death during the thousand years when Revelation 20 shows that death doesn't happen until after the thousand years, meaning when they are devoured by fire from God out of heaven?

My opinion is that both death and procreation happen during the 1000 years. However people will live a lot longer, possibly a few hundred years. People who die will be resurrected at the end of the 1000 years. People who are alive will be transformed at the end of 1000 years.

I'd imagine that at the end of the 1000 year there would be tens of billions of people on Earth and perhaps into the solar system.

One possibility may be that people can be born up to the end of the 1000 years but then there would be a period where no more are born to allow time for everyone to reach adulthood and then the new heavens / earth comes about.

While living during the 1000 years may be great, presumably what comes after is even better so someone who just reaches adulthood will not feel like they've missed out etc.
Its no more different than what happens to a child that dies now, they don't get to live out a normal life.

 

[tranquil]

What I would like to see is someone present a coherent timeline of the 7 trumpets and 7 vials and show where each fit in Matthew 24.

As to the 6th seal events, how much time should we assume that involves? If we have to fit 7 trumpets and 7 vials into the 6th seal, that's a lot of events taking place after the beast has already reigned 42 months.

All of the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls are sequential, not parallel.

The Seals are the result of 'Israel' sinning, the Trumpets are the 7 punishments for disobedience regarding the worship of the beast. The Bowls are the punishments for worshiping Gog and for the destruction of Gog.

At the 4th Seal, Death is given dominion. Maybe a 1/4 of the world will be dying, but the point is that Death is being given dominion. Death is a person, as in the covenant with Death & Hades in Isaiah 28:18.

Starting on Jerusalem Day, the 'call to restore Jerusalem' holiday in Israel, there will be 70 weeks until Sukkot/ Feast of Tabernacles when there is a 'most holy' anointed (see Zechariah 14:16-21).

Go forward 7 weeks from this particular Jerusalem Day to when the 1st 'messiah'/ 'anointed one' arrives. This is Death being given dominion. (Daniel 9:25) Death is the 'one that is' in Revelation 17:10 (the #6 King) and is the 1st King of the North in Daniel 11:16.

Then Sukkot/ Feast of Tabernacles arrives (15 Tishri) (the end of the 70 weeks is the 1st anniversary of this particular Sukkot). Revelation 7:9-17 describes the 'coming out of the great tribulation' whereby God is giving the faithful 'shelter' in the same exact terms as Sukkot/ Feast of Tabernacles is described in Leviticus 23:39-43.

This is the abomination of desolation mentioned by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse and is the beginning of the 7 Trumpets.

5 months of the 5th Trumpet later is the 6th Trumpet on Shushan Purim (15 Adar) and is the 'winter, Sabbath start of the great tribulation' (Matthew 24:15-21) upon 'Jerusalem'. The 'locusts' of the 5th & 6th Trumpet are 'foreigners' that 'eat up the land' as in Deuteronomy 28:49-52. They are curses for disobedience.

150 days later is the 62 weeks marker after the Jerusalem Day beginning, the arrival of the 2nd messiah (Daniel 9:25). This 2nd 'messiah'/ 'anointed one' is the #7 King in Revelation 17:10 and is the son of the 1st King of the North in Daniel 11:20. He is the 'son of perdition', the son of 'Death'.

Then at the end of 70 weeks, the 'most holy' is anointed (Daniel 9:24) on the 1st anniversary of the abomination of desolation that occurred on the previous Sukkot/ Feast of Tabernacles. Presumably, the 'son of perdition' is 'honoring' his father (Death) at this time (the people who aren't killed after the 'flood' of the 6th Trumpet don't repent of their idols [Revelation 9:20-21).

At the 6th Trumpet, the son of the 1st King of the North makes the covenant that will be broken 1260 days later (Daniel 9:27). Then at the 62 weeks marker, 'Israel' anoints the son of perdition as the messiah.

Just looking at time frames, it is obvious that 5 months (Trumpets 1-5) plus 1260 days of the 2 witnesses is a bit longer than 1290 days. The abomination of desolation starts 1290 days (Daniel 12:11) (remember that the 'locusts' of the 5th Trumpet are the same 'locusts' of Joel 1-3 and 'cut off the daily sacrifice' [Joel 1:5-9] just as the abomination of desolation does (Daniel 12:11).

At the 1335th day, 'Israel' begins to begins to dwell securely. A few months later, the 3rd King of the North arrives. This is the 'Assyrian', the 'contemptible person who invades the kingdom' in Daniel 11:21-32.

Numbers 24:15-25 describes the 'latter days' wherein the 'ships of Chittim' are attacking the 'Assyrian'/ 'Ashur' which correlates to Daniel 11:30.

The 7th Trumpet begins when Gog attacks 'Israel' that is dwelling securely (post-1335th day) at the 1260th day from the 6th Trumpet. Gog is the 'Assyrian,' is the #8 King in Revelation 17:10, and is the Daniel 8 Little Horn.

Daniel 8

23“In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.​

This is the attack of Gog and destruction of Gog during the 7th Trumpet & 7 Bowls of wrath.

 

[Douggg]

The first six seals cover the 7 years. Starting with the rider on the white horse, the Antichrist, given a crown to be the King of Israel.

He confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant, acting as Israel's perceived messiah, to begin the 7 years.

Seal six is right at the end of the 7 years, as Jesus appears in the third heaven, the sign of the Son of man in heaven in Matthew 24:29.

_________________________________________________
The seventh seal is not an extension chronologically speaking of the first six seals. It is a separate lead-in to the great tribulation.

The seventh seal begins the visions of events to take place during the great tribulation, starting in the middle of the 7 years.

 

[Timtofly]

What I would like to see is someone present a coherent timeline of the 7 trumpets and 7 vials and show where each fit in Matthew 24. But not in chart form since charts can be difficult to follow, especially if they are charts like Douggg tends to make. If we have the 42 month reign of the beast fitting during Matthew 24:15-26, then have the trumpets beginning during the 6th seal, in that case, the trumpets and vials could run in parallel since this would not contradict the first vial since this would be after the beast is already reigning.

But what happens when we get to the 5th and 6th trumpet events, though? The 5th trumpet involves the bottomless pit being opened. The 6th trumpet involves the 2Ws, and at the end of their testimony they are waged war against then killed by the beast who is no longer reigning 42 months since that reign ended once the 6th seal events got underway. It is during the beast's 42 month reign that he makes war with anyone. He doesn't do that after his reign has ended.

As to the 6th seal events, how much time should we assume that involves? If we have to fit 7 trumpets and 7 vials into the 6th seal, that's a lot of events taking place after the beast has already reigned 42 months.

Matthew 24:14 is the end. Then the next 4 defined events are in reverse order from the end. The AoD, the GT, the Second Coming, and the fig tree parable. Obviously the fig tree already happened, but unless you are going to just pick and choose your own order of events, they are in reverse order.

The 70th week is the earthly ministry of Christ. The first 3.5 years are complete. Then the fulness of the Gentiles. At the Second Coming, Jesus will be on earth for the last 3.5 years, known as the final harvest, Matthew 13 or the GT, the first 6 Trumpets, and 7 Thunders. The sheep and goats are Israel, Matthew 25. The wheat and tares are the remainder of all nations.

This will not last the whole 3.5 years of the 70th week. The first Seal starts the 3.5 year countdown. The longer the Second Coming happens after the 1st Seal, the shorter the time of the GT will be, the Trumpets and Thunders.

The point of the final harvest is that the church brings in the larger harvest. Once the Second Coming happens the church is complete.

Those 42 months in Revelation 13 are only for the gleanings after the final harvest. The 7th Trumpet happens after the 7th Thunder. It is the week long celebration to finalize the harvest.

The 42 months in Revelation 13 splits this week in half. The last 3.5 days of the 7th Trumpet is the same 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem. During these 3.5 days the 7 vials of God's wrath is poured out. The only humans left at that time have the mark. They can never be redeemed. They are all killed at the battle of Armageddon. The percentage of human loss 100%.

The Monday after that last Sunday of the 70th week of Daniel is the first day of the 1,000 year reign in Revelation 20:4. Those beheaded are resurrected.

The week of the 7th Trumpet is the the third such week in history. Palm Sunday to Ressurection Sunday in 30AD was the second such week. The first week was the establishment of Israel into the promised land, and the end of Jericho which represented the end of Nations, and the start of Israel as representatives of God on earth.

The church will be the first taken as they were last on earth. Then Israel. The Nations have been around the longest, and the last to be dealt with. Then comes the end. So the Millennium is the fourth age with God Himself on the throne on earth. Then after the little season, only the throne remains, and heaven and earth pass away.

 

[Zao is life]

Another viewpoint: The visions seen in each seal is not one of the events at all, because the events are written on the scroll, but each seal opens our understanding to the event written about on the scroll. For example,

"Voices, thunderings, Lightnings, and an earthquake" are always symbols of God speaking from heaven: We see it in Exodus 20:18, we see it used in poetic form by David in 2 Samuel 22:14-15, we see it proceeding from the throne of God in Revelation 4:5.

Only after reading the events written about in the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl of wrath, do we realize that the vision John sees when the seventh seal is loosened, symbolizes God's judgment:

It's the 3rd "woe".

The reason the trumpets are introduced only when the 7th seal is loosened is because the seals seal the events that are written on the scroll, and all the seals have to be loosened before the scroll can unroll, so once the 7th seal has been loosened, the scroll unrolls and we start reading about the trumpets.

But that doesn't mean the visions seen in the seals are not opening our understanding to the events we are told about in the trumpets and vials, because the same goes for 6 6 6: (6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th bowl of wrath):

"..Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
17 for the great day of His wrath has come, and who will be able to stand?" (6:16b-17, 6th seal).

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (Revelation 16:15, in-between the 6th and 7th bowl of wrath).

The second "woe" is linked to both:

(A) The sixth trumpet (Revelation 9:12-13); and
(B) To the period during which the two witnesses are prophesying (Revelation 11:3-14).

6th trumpet:
"And the number of the armies of the horsemen was two myriads of myriads. And I heard their number." (6th trumpet, 9:16).

6th vial:
15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (6th bowl of wrath, Revelation 16).

The 1st "woe" is linked to the 5th trumpet, which is the opening of the abyss, from which the beast ascends. He continues for 42 months and makes war against the saints and overcomes them (Revelation 13). He also makes war against the two witnesses who prophesy for 1,260 days, and when they finish their testimony, the beast kills them (Revelation 11).

And the fifth angel poured out his vial on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom became darkened. And they gnawed their tongues from the pain.

9 And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Until when, Master, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given to each one of them. And it was said to them that they should rest yet for a little time, until both their fellow servants and their brothers (those about to be killed as they were) should have their number made complete. (Revelation chapter 6).

I believe the visions seen in the seals open our understanding to what is written on the scroll, which only unrolls once all the seals have been loosened. Those visions are not events themselves. They are telling us something about the events. They are seals, so when they are loosened they open our understanding to the things written about in the scroll (which we only read when it unrolls, and it only unrolls when the 7th seal has been loosened).

 

[Timtofly]

We better hope each couple are legally married then, and that in God's eyes He sees them that way, otherwise there is going to be a whole lot of sinning going on, though you indicate no sin taking place. In the age we are living in, procreation is taking place, except not everyone participating in that are even married.

Should we imagine it just a cult world with arranged marriages, and no free will? It is not like now with the knowledge of good and evil. What is evil if there is no knowledge? Does that mean evil is licensed or is that just catering to the flesh?

I just say procreation because it is more efficient than "marrying and given in marriage", and just typing "sex" is too carnal of an image for my posting taste. For all I know perhaps there is a dating game, nah. If God can know how to put couples together for that perfect match, would you not trust God? I am not even sure if those in the Millennium will even remember this current life. It can be easily assumed that God is literally starting from scratch with the same souls. But why not just use brand new souls, if the former things will not even be remembered? We can assume all kinds of scenarios of why or why not.

 

[Jamdoc]

What I would like to see is someone present a coherent timeline of the 7 trumpets and 7 vials and show where each fit in Matthew 24. But not in chart form since charts can be difficult to follow, especially if they are charts like Douggg tends to make. If we have the 42 month reign of the beast fitting during Matthew 24:15-26, then have the trumpets beginning during the 6th seal, in that case, the trumpets and vials could run in parallel since this would not contradict the first vial since this would be after the beast is already reigning.

But what happens when we get to the 5th and 6th trumpet events, though? The 5th trumpet involves the bottomless pit being opened. The 6th trumpet involves the 2Ws, and at the end of their testimony they are waged war against then killed by the beast who is no longer reigning 42 months since that reign ended once the 6th seal events got underway. It is during the beast's 42 month reign that he makes war with anyone. He doesn't do that after his reign has ended.

As to the 6th seal events, how much time should we assume that involves? If we have to fit 7 trumpets and 7 vials into the 6th seal, that's a lot of events taking place after the beast has already reigned 42 months.

I can answer that very simply.
There is a reason why Jesus' Olivet Discourse ends at the 6th seal. For believers.. that's it. That's the end of what they will experience on earth until the rrestoration of all things.
There's nothing like the trumpets and vials mentioned by Jesus, because it's irrelevant to the audience of the Olivet Discourse. No believer will see them.

To distill what I believe and sorry I can't make charts I'm not very good with graphics.
1. You have the first 4 seals, which establish the harlot of Babylon, the global government that precedes the beast (as the harlot rides the beast at first, ruling over the beast). This is during the first 3.5 years, and is explained parenthetically in Revelation 17. This is the beginning of sorrows that Jesus talks about in Matthew 24:4-8.
2. The 5th seal may or may not be open at this time, that I have not decided on what I believe quite yet, because Mystery Babylon is drunk on the blood of the saints, indicating some persecution. Timing wise.. this is the hardest thing for me to reconcile in scripture. Because Babylon seems to come to remembrance after the 7th vial in Revelation 16.. yet in Revelation 14 it's already declared to be fallen, which is before the 7th vial, because the vials are the wrath of God, and the wrath of God comes after Jesus is on the clouds in Revelation 14:14. Either way, this part, where Mystery Babylon is ruling, fits in with Matthew 24:9-14.
3. At the 3.5 year mark into the 70th week, the Beast is elevated to rule the world, and Mystery Babylon is destroyed by the 10 Kings that promote the Beast. Again, this is a little hard to reconcile with John writing that Babylon comes into remembrance of the Lord after the 7th vial. But that 3.5 year mark, where Mystery Babylon is overtaken by the Beast, is marked by the Abomination of Desolation, Matthew 24:15-20.
4. If the 5th seal wasn't opened prior during Mystery Babylon, it for absolute sure is now, because Jesus says after the Abomination of Desolation, Great Tribulation begins. Matthew 24:21-28, notice the mention of false prophets, which would include the main false prophet of Revelation 13, and they all point to Antichrist, Jesus tells them not to believe their claims, even if they claim that it is the second coming of Jesus, and explains that His second coming will be unmistakable, and supernatural, and in the sky, and Satan will not be able to mimic it.
5. At some unknown point after the Great Tribulation, the 6th seal is opened and Jesus returns on the clouds. This is Revelation 1:7, 6:12-17, 14:14-20, Matthew 24:29-31, it's parallels in Mark and Luke, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and pretty much all other "Day of the Lord" passages especially those that involve the darkening of the sun and moon. This is as far as Jesus goes in the Olivet Discourse as far as Earthly Events. He then goes into explaining that some will be taken, others left, and goes into parables explaining how important it is to be ready for His return, and to watch for it.

After this come the trumpets and vials, and they're not at all in Matthew 24 or the Olivet Discourse. The reason being the audience of Matthew 24 is believers who will not witness the trumpets or vials. It's all "when ye shall see". They would never see wormwood, or the oceans turning to blood, or the demonic locusts, or the loathsome sores.

a question.. for a full blown post trib.. what do you expect when you have global affecting plagues like all the water turns to blood? do you expect to fill a glass with blood and it miraculously becomes water for you to drink? Because you somehow believe that you'll be on earth during the trumpets and vials, yet not be affected by them on an individual level. Now when the plagues of Egypt were in Exodus, the Hebrews lived in Goshen, separate from the Egyptians, so it was quite possible for plagues to affect Egypt, while not affecting the Hebrews in Goshen since they lived separate. That's not the case with the saved and unsaved today, they're all over the world and scattered throughout. If you have all the water turning to blood, that would affect everyone, Christian and non Christian alike.
During the Great Tribulation, it'll be possible for Christians, despite being unable to buy or sell, to forage for food and water while fleeing, God will provide.
But during the wrath of God? All the underbrush is burned up, all the water is turned to blood, the fish are all dead. Sure certain things do not target a handful (well 144,000, but comparatively a handful) sealed, but things that affect the entire globe? That'd affect everyone, unless there is a means of providence not discussed in the book.

 

[Jamdoc]

We better hope each couple are legally married then, and that in God's eyes He sees them that way, otherwise there is going to be a whole lot of sinning going on, though you indicate no sin taking place. In the age we are living in, procreation is taking place, except not everyone participating in that are even married.

A few possibilities

1. and most likely, there is no procreation anymore, as sad as it would be to never again see new life, it could be understood since nothing dies you'd overcrowd the planet if things just kept procreating and nothing died. Most people align with this idea, as it agrees with Matthew 22:30. I consider this worst case scenario, but yeah, it seems the most humanly plausible from our current vantage. It absolutely tears me up and causes me despair, but Matthew 22:30 is hard to argue against, and the logic of things overcrowding the Earth by procreating and never dying makes sense, and under the current law, it'd be forbidden to procreate without marriage, which seemingly by Matthew 22:30, does not exist anymore.

2. Matthew 22:30 may only be referring to Levirite Marriage laws, which is the particular question posed to Jesus in that passage. Some other form of monogamous partnership may replace it, afterall, Marriage between Adam and Eve came before the fall, before they could die, and they were instructed to multiply meaning God did have the plan for them to reproduce while never dying. If there truly is a restoration of ALL things, then it would be incomplete without this, it would be God doing "plan B" instead of "plan A" which makes me terribly sad.

3. Jesus said the law would not pass away until all is fulfilled. Well. on the New Earth, all is fulfilled. Could that mean changes to the biblical laws? We know there will be no sin, and that can be accomplished in multiple ways. We could lose free will (worst case scenario), it can simply be because some sins are now impossible to do, for instance you can't murder if nobody can die. You cannot commit adultery if there's no marriage, or a worse way of achieving that that also nails fornication... we lack the anatomy... a bunch of walking talking barbie and ken dolls. Personally I think that's an awful way to achieve it.. but it is a possibility. Finally, it may be, since disease is no more, and everyone loves each other, and is technically part of the same marriage, all having been in the Marriage Supper of the lamb.. that people are free to procreate, the law has changed. This is a bit of an odd one out view, but it'd basically make it so that marriage is no longer a thing so that nobody is excluded, as many currently are.

There is one passage that does support the idea of continued procreation.. I know, people like to think this is the Millennium, not the New Heavens and New Earth .. but Isaiah doesn't say that, he says new heavens and new earth.

Isaiah 65

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.

This suggests offspring on the New Earth, and Earthly activities, which gives me some hope of it not being true that eternity is some dreadful sounding 24/7/365/forever psalm and hymn sing along where we all just crowd around the throne of God and ignore the rest of the planet that some people seem to believe and just.. fills me with dread, despair, and well, to put frankly, rebuking whenever I think of it being true. I get rebuked internally every time I think it's the truth because I believe other people on it. But I can see where they get it in scripture, so sometimes, I just get depressed and believe it.

anyway.. TL;DR
either there's no procreation, there's a new monogamous procreating relationship that replaces what we know as marriage, or.. some sort of hippie free love eternity so that nobody's excluded.

 

[RandyPNW]

How can there be 7 trumpets, for example, but that the events are not in chronological order? Since when does 1 not come before 2, 2 does not come before 3, etc? If each trumpet event represented a day of the week, for example, trumpet 1 representing Sunday, trumpet 2 representing Monday, trumpet 3 representing Tuesday, etc, how can what happens on Wednesday happen on another day instead, such as Sunday? The point being, one can't change the chronological order of a week, so the same should be true if there are 7 trumpet events, one can't change the chronological order of them either, 1 always comes before 2, 2 always comes before 3, the same way Sunday always comes before Monday, Monday always comes before Tuesday.

Sorry, I don't wish to come across too harsh. I just know what we all do, since I've been involved in this stuff for decades. We'd all like to get the secret blueprint, right? It's almost a game, to see who can get it right.

Obviously, that's not what Christ had in mind since he plainly and strongly declared, "It's not for you to know times and seasons." He just wanted us to know the nature of the present age, what to expect from the world in our lives, and how it will all pan out.

I gave you an example of how a set of 7 may not be chronological. When a painter paints a picture in 7 stages, they are chronological to the painter painting these 7 stages. But the 7 stages themselves do not infer anything about the painting itself that is chronological.

For example, the painter begins with the landscape, and advances to a few rudimentary trees, as in a Bob Ross painting. And then he begins to add some details, perhaps a cabin, and so forth. None of these stages depicts things that happen chronologically. You don't in the picture have it suggested that the trees show up after the landscape, nor the cabin appearing on cue, after the trees appear.

It's the same with the Revelation. Each scenario tells us something about the endtimes. The fact one story follows another just indicates the order in telling the story, and has little to do with depicting events that are to happen one after the other.

In fact, a number of visions tell the same story in different ways, covering the exact same chronological time period. Only the narrative is chronological--not the events that are being presented as if the order they are presented represent a sequence of prophetic fulfillments.

 

[Timtofly]

You haven't answered my question about those that break the law. Will they be killed at the time they break the law, allowing for trial time etc?

Re the sheep & wheat, are you saying that there will be people who are not Christians (or Jews) but yet who survive the GT and goon to re-populate the Earth in the 1000 period?, in plain english please
Will these people be different from current humans and if so how?

So where could I, as a Christian, expect to be during the 1000 year period?

The church is in Paradise at the Second Coming. Revelation 7:9-17. This is before the 7th Seal is even opened.

The sheep and goats call to judgment is during the 6 Trumpets.

The wheat and tares sown and gathered in the 7 Thunders.

No one "survives" the GT. The GT determines one's final destination for those not part of the glorified church.

Those on earth will start out with permanent incorruptible physical bodies. The glorified church remains in Paradise until after the NHNE, and the New Jerusalem comes down with the glorified church inside. Paradise becomes the New Jerusalem.

Rebellion is dealt with in child hood. I am not going to assume the mechanics. In the OT law, the parents brought a rebellious child to the temple and the child was stoned to death. I am not even sure if that happened once in the OT. If Jesus is ruling with an iron rod, I am sure God would instantly know when a child rebelled. Without sounding like an authoritarian dictatorship against human's sinful nature, the millennium will seem normal where no one will disobey the law, and a cursed child wanting to brake the law would be considered abnormal.

I don't see there being any police or any law officers unless that is the job of the 144k. Even under current sin nature there are communities that exist almost crime free for many generations in simple stress free environments. Remove all sin and sin nature, and what some think will be an issue will more than likely not exist at all. I don't see any mature adults being involved in crime nor attempting to subvert the government. Not sure why some think sin is necessary for a healthy community experience?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I'm not convinced procreation will still be taking place post the 2nd coming, but I am convinced there will be a literal thousand years following the 2nd coming. To this day not one single mortal person has ever lived an entire thousand years. I then see the thousand years being when this happens, a mortal person living an entire thousand years, which means they are spared death at the 2nd coming and are still alive a thousand years later. If we toss procreation into the mix, and if someone has children 500 years into the thousand years, for example, their children never get to live an entire thousand years in that case, they only get to live 500 years and a little season.

Some insist there is death during the thousand years, that based on what it says in Isaiah 65. But how can their be death during the thousand years when Revelation 20 shows that death doesn't happen until after the thousand years, meaning when they are devoured by fire from God out of heaven?

Have you read Wayne Grudem's "Systematic Theology" on this? I had zero idea about births during the 1000 years either prior to reading his chapters on eschatology in his book.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

A few possibilities

1. and most likely, there is no procreation anymore, as sad as it would be to never again see new life, it could be understood since nothing dies you'd overcrowd the planet if things just kept procreating and nothing died. Most people align with this idea, as it agrees with Matthew 22:30. I consider this worst case scenario, but yeah, it seems the most humanly plausible from our current vantage. It absolutely tears me up and causes me despair, but Matthew 22:30 is hard to argue against, and the logic of things overcrowding the Earth by procreating and never dying makes sense, and under the current law, it'd be forbidden to procreate without marriage, which seemingly by Matthew 22:30, does not exist anymore.

2. Matthew 22:30 may only be referring to Levirite Marriage laws, which is the particular question posed to Jesus in that passage. Some other form of monogamous partnership may replace it, afterall, Marriage between Adam and Eve came before the fall, before they could die, and they were instructed to multiply meaning God did have the plan for them to reproduce while never dying. If there truly is a restoration of ALL things, then it would be incomplete without this, it would be God doing "plan B" instead of "plan A" which makes me terribly sad.

3. Jesus said the law would not pass away until all is fulfilled. Well. on the New Earth, all is fulfilled. Could that mean changes to the biblical laws? We know there will be no sin, and that can be accomplished in multiple ways. We could lose free will (worst case scenario), it can simply be because some sins are now impossible to do, for instance you can't murder if nobody can die. You cannot commit adultery if there's no marriage, or a worse way of achieving that that also nails fornication... we lack the anatomy... a bunch of walking talking barbie and ken dolls. Personally I think that's an awful way to achieve it.. but it is a possibility. Finally, it may be, since disease is no more, and everyone loves each other, and is technically part of the same marriage, all having been in the Marriage Supper of the lamb.. that people are free to procreate, the law has changed. This is a bit of an odd one out view, but it'd basically make it so that marriage is no longer a thing so that nobody is excluded, as many currently are.

There is one passage that does support the idea of continued procreation.. I know, people like to think this is the Millennium, not the New Heavens and New Earth .. but Isaiah doesn't say that, he says new heavens and new earth.

Isaiah 65


This suggests offspring on the New Earth, and Earthly activities, which gives me some hope of it not being true that eternity is some dreadful sounding 24/7/365/forever psalm and hymn sing along where we all just crowd around the throne of God and ignore the rest of the planet that some people seem to believe and just.. fills me with dread, despair, and well, to put frankly, rebuking whenever I think of it being true. I get rebuked internally every time I think it's the truth because I believe other people on it. But I can see where they get it in scripture, so sometimes, I just get depressed and believe it.

anyway.. TL;DR
either there's no procreation, there's a new monogamous procreating relationship that replaces what we know as marriage, or.. some sort of hippie free love eternity so that nobody's excluded.

Scenario 1 could be solved by the 50% who die during tribulation, thus cutting today's population in half. Also even more than 50% may die due to additional fatalities during the battle of Armageddon. Reproduction rates could be low enough during the Millenium to avoid overcrowding, and/or agricultural advancements made to feed far more than currently using genetic engineering and improved worldwide conditions such as no global warming and pollution that is likely to prevail while the Lord is on Earth. For example, they are already making beef burgers out of vegetables, which thus far I've refused to try!

 

[Sorn]

A few possibilities

1. and most likely, there is no procreation anymore, as sad as it would be to never again see new life, it could be understood since nothing dies you'd overcrowd the planet if things just kept procreating and nothing died. Most people align with this idea, as it agrees with Matthew 22:30. I consider this worst case scenario, but yeah, it seems the most humanly plausible from our current vantage. It absolutely tears me up and causes me despair, but Matthew 22:30 is hard to argue against, and the logic of things overcrowding the Earth by procreating and never dying makes sense, and under the current law, it'd be forbidden to procreate without marriage, which seemingly by Matthew 22:30, does not exist anymore.

2. Matthew 22:30 may only be referring to Levirite Marriage laws, which is the particular question posed to Jesus in that passage. Some other form of monogamous partnership may replace it, afterall, Marriage between Adam and Eve came before the fall, before they could die, and they were instructed to multiply meaning God did have the plan for them to reproduce while never dying. If there truly is a restoration of ALL things, then it would be incomplete without this, it would be God doing "plan B" instead of "plan A" which makes me terribly sad.

3. Jesus said the law would not pass away until all is fulfilled. Well. on the New Earth, all is fulfilled. Could that mean changes to the biblical laws? We know there will be no sin, and that can be accomplished in multiple ways. We could lose free will (worst case scenario), it can simply be because some sins are now impossible to do, for instance you can't murder if nobody can die. You cannot commit adultery if there's no marriage, or a worse way of achieving that that also nails fornication... we lack the anatomy... a bunch of walking talking barbie and ken dolls. Personally I think that's an awful way to achieve it.. but it is a possibility. Finally, it may be, since disease is no more, and everyone loves each other, and is technically part of the same marriage, all having been in the Marriage Supper of the lamb.. that people are free to procreate, the law has changed. This is a bit of an odd one out view, but it'd basically make it so that marriage is no longer a thing so that nobody is excluded, as many currently are.

There is one passage that does support the idea of continued procreation.. I know, people like to think this is the Millennium, not the New Heavens and New Earth .. but Isaiah doesn't say that, he says new heavens and new earth.

Isaiah 65


This suggests offspring on the New Earth, and Earthly activities, which gives me some hope of it not being true that eternity is some dreadful sounding 24/7/365/forever psalm and hymn sing along where we all just crowd around the throne of God and ignore the rest of the planet that some people seem to believe and just.. fills me with dread, despair, and well, to put frankly, rebuking whenever I think of it being true. I get rebuked internally every time I think it's the truth because I believe other people on it. But I can see where they get it in scripture, so sometimes, I just get depressed and believe it.

anyway.. TL;DR
either there's no procreation, there's a new monogamous procreating relationship that replaces what we know as marriage, or.. some sort of hippie free love eternity so that nobody's excluded.

Interesting commentary. I think most Christians, myself included, think people will still procreate (ie have children) in the 1000 period. In that period there will be a population explosion with tens if not hundreds of billions of people at the end of the 1000 year period. Depending on how technology has progressed, it may include colonies in the solar system, maybe further though that's probably pushing things.

As for the new heavens & earth, i (& imagine most Christians) do not think that people will reproduce (ie have children). The start of that age will have the sum total of beings (people, angels ect). However I do think its possible that romantic relationships may well be possible.
As you say, many sins won't be possible (like actual murder, though sins in thought may be another thing entirely).
If everyone is young always, at the prime of life, with no economic needs to worry about & people act in the best interests of their fellow human then unselfish intimate relationships that benefit both parties, where there is no exploitation or power dynamics etc at work, may well be possible, not quite a hippy free love society but perhaps part way there.

Also, there will be plenty of things to do & placers to go in the new heavens / Earth (read whole new universe that we can access). We won't just be the equivalent of 'heads in jars' just constantly singing hymns.
The current universe, which is effectively a throw away universe, is probably not even 1% of what the new universe will be.

 

[Sorn]

The church is in Paradise at the Second Coming. Revelation 7:9-17. This is before the 7th Seal is even opened.

The sheep and goats call to judgment is during the 6 Trumpets.

The wheat and tares sown and gathered in the 7 Thunders.

No one "survives" the GT. The GT determines one's final destination for those not part of the glorified church.

Those on earth will start out with permanent incorruptible physical bodies. The glorified church remains in Paradise until after the NHNE, and the New Jerusalem comes down with the glorified church inside. Paradise becomes the New Jerusalem.

Rebellion is dealt with in child hood. I am not going to assume the mechanics. In the OT law, the parents brought a rebellious child to the temple and the child was stoned to death. I am not even sure if that happened once in the OT. If Jesus is ruling with an iron rod, I am sure God would instantly know when a child rebelled. Without sounding like an authoritarian dictatorship against human's sinful nature, the millennium will seem normal where no one will disobey the law, and a cursed child wanting to brake the law would be considered abnormal.

I don't see there being any police or any law officers unless that is the job of the 144k. Even under current sin nature there are communities that exist almost crime free for many generations in simple stress free environments. Remove all sin and sin nature, and what some think will be an issue will more than likely not exist at all. I don't see any mature adults being involved in crime nor attempting to subvert the government. Not sure why some think sin is necessary for a healthy community experience?

Can you PLEASE answer these simple questions:
1) Where will current Christians be during the 1000 year reign, am I right that you are saying in heaven/paradise but NOT earth?
2) Who goes into or is alive at the start of the 1000 period to reproduce & populate the Earth once
again? & what is you justification for your position on this please

 

[Sorn]

Rebellion is dealt with in child hood. I am not going to assume the mechanics. In the OT law, the parents brought a rebellious child to the temple and the child was stoned to death. I am not even sure if that happened once in the OT. If Jesus is ruling with an iron rod, I am sure God would instantly know when a child rebelled. Without sounding like an authoritarian dictatorship against human's sinful nature, the millennium will seem normal where no one will disobey the law, and a cursed child wanting to brake the law would be considered abnormal.

This is one of the more extreme out workings of Christian theology that many people may not consider or overlook. That God will know your thought at all times. In principle that happens now but but no immediate action is taken. In Heaven, immediate action may well be taken, but presumably people will never stray.
Its quite radical when you think about it, how much a person may need to change to be 100% in line with Gods will & thoughts 100% of the time. Its quite probable that not even a grudge will be acceptable. So even people you dislike now or want nothing to do with, one has to let go of all of that in its entirety.

 

[Jamdoc]

Scenario 1 could be solved by the 50% who die during tribulation, thus cutting today's population in half. Also even more than 50% may die due to additional fatalities during the battle of Armageddon. Reproduction rates could be low enough during the Millenium to avoid overcrowding, and/or agricultural advancements made to feed far more than currently using genetic engineering and improved worldwide conditions such as no global warming and pollution that is likely to prevail while the Lord is on Earth. For example, they are already making beef burgers out of vegetables, which thus far I've refused to try!

It's not just human populations to be considered, but imagine if no insects or fish died but reproduced as they currently do (being r strategists, which is, make LOTS of offspring at a time with the natural course being almost all of them die before being able to reproduce themselves). The earth would be overrun pretty quickly as they normally have short lifespans and reproduce by the hundreds if not thousands.

 

[Jamdoc]

Interesting commentary. I think most Christians, myself included, think people will still procreate (ie have children) in the 1000 period. In that period there will be a population explosion with tens if not hundreds of billions of people at the end of the 1000 year period. Depending on how technology has progressed, it may include colonies in the solar system, maybe further though that's probably pushing things.

As for the new heavens & earth, i (& imagine most Christians) do not think that people will reproduce (ie have children). The start of that age will have the sum total of beings (people, angels ect). However I do think its possible that romantic relationships may well be possible.
As you say, many sins won't be possible (like actual murder, though sins in thought may be another thing entirely).
If everyone is young always, at the prime of life, with no economic needs to worry about & people act in the best interests of their fellow human then unselfish intimate relationships that benefit both parties, where there is no exploitation or power dynamics etc at work, may well be possible, not quite a hippy free love society but perhaps part way there.

Also, there will be plenty of things to do & placers to go in the new heavens / Earth (read whole new universe that we can access). We won't just be the equivalent of 'heads in jars' just constantly singing hymns.
The current universe, which is effectively a throw away universe, is probably not even 1% of what the new universe will be.

Well, being eternally young is not the same as.. seeing new births.. new creation. That is the thing that would sadden me. There is something miraculous about seeing a new litter of animals born, a new baby just opening their eyes. You'd think.. what a wonderful place for a new baby to be born and never have to know sin or death, and would know God and see Him, where we would have to believe in Him just from the pages of a book and faith in an invisible God. They would grow up their entire lives knowing God's love for them.
But with no procreation, it's a "pipe dream".
Never being able to see the original plan where people had dominion of the Earth, and filled the Earth.
It'd sadden me if what we get is plan B, that a plan of God's failed and He had to abandon it because of our sin and do something unintended.

 

[Sorn]

Well, being eternally young is not the same as.. seeing new births.. new creation. That is the thing that would sadden me. There is something miraculous about seeing a new litter of animals born, a new baby just opening their eyes. You'd think.. what a wonderful place for a new baby to be born and never have to know sin or death, and would know God and see Him, where we would have to believe in Him just from the pages of a book and faith in an invisible God. They would grow up their entire lives knowing God's love for them.
But with no procreation, it's a "pipe dream".
Never being able to see the original plan where people had dominion of the Earth, and filled the Earth.
It'd sadden me if what we get is plan B, that a plan of God's failed and He had to abandon it because of our sin and do something unintended.

Thats what the 1000 years is about.

After that you probably won't miss the giving birth aspect of life and if you really do, you can probably create a virtual world for that to happen, imagine how powerful computers will be then!

 

[Jamdoc]

Thats what the 1000 years is about.

After that you probably won't miss the giving birth aspect of life and if you really do, you can probably create a virtual world for that to happen, imagine how powerful computers will be then!

That'd be me creating, not God creating. I wouldn't really like that.