Futurist Only What is the chronological order of Revelation?

[Jamdoc]

Suppose that a pre-trib rapture position is true and that further the time between the rapture and the start of the 7 year tribulation is potentially 20 to 40 years. Would that make it easier to organize or fit the seals, trumpets, bowls & thunders?

Inconsistent with how Jesus taught His return and rapture.

Luke 17

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Both examples have many levels of detail here.

#1. That the world would be wicked and violent, as in Noah's day, and homosexuality would be prevalent like in Lot's day.
#2. That for those wicked people they would not see God's judgement coming, they would think everything was normal.
#3. That the people who were warned about God's judgement would not be believed when they told others about it.
#4. That the people that God delivered from His wrath were delivered just before God's wrath fell on the wicked. Not years before, or months before, or even days before. Noah entered the ark, and God sealed the entrance behind him and began the flood right away. Lot was pulled out of Sodom, and Sodom got destroyed right away.

any sort of "gap period" between the rapture and the wrath of God is wholly inconsistent with scripture.
Whether you believe "the seven year tribulation" is the wrath of God in its entirety.. or you understand when God's wrath begins (Revelation 6:17) because the bible never once says "the seven year tribulation", the picture that Jesus gave us.. is that the deliverance is just before God's wrath.

now before a post trib says "immediately after the tribulation".. yeah, that's true.

But understand the difference between tribulation and the wrath of God.
Before Revelation 6:17? That's the Great Tribulation. After? Wrath of God.
Not the same thing.

and you can prove this because of Matthew 24. Jesus marks the Great Tribulation as coming AFTER the 3.5 year mark in the 70th week.. and says immediately AFTER the Tribulation the sun and moon darken.
That's the 6th seal.
and just after the 6th seal is Revelation 6:17.. the wrath of God.
and the next chapter? Saints are praising God in huge numbers that can't even be counted.

it's just so consistent and reconciles all these seemingly conflicting statements.
"not appointed to wrath"
"immediately after the tribulation of those days"

Yup, both are true.

 

[DavidPT]

if you believe that at the 7th trumpet Jesus claims the Kingdoms of this World as His Kingdoms forever and ever.. and then.... hands control back to Satan to give authority to the beast? I don't know what to say.

How did you come to that conclusion from what I said? In my view the 7th trumpet is after the 42 month reign of the beast. That means the beast is no longer reigning 42 months. That means the GT is over and is now the time of God's wrath. No one is handing anything back over to satan when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ. Pretribbers and midtribbers, though there is no such thing as midtrib, have the 7th trumpet basically meaning in the middle of the 70th week. I don't. I have the 7th trumpet meaning at the end of the 70th week.

 

[Sorn]

Inconsistent with how Jesus taught His return and rapture.

Luke 17


Both examples have many levels of detail here.

#1. That the world would be wicked and violent, as in Noah's day, and homosexuality would be prevalent like in Lot's day.
#2. That for those wicked people they would not see God's judgement coming, they would think everything was normal.
#3. That the people who were warned about God's judgement would not be believed when they told others about it.
#4. That the people that God delivered from His wrath were delivered just before God's wrath fell on the wicked. Not years before, or months before, or even days before. Noah entered the ark, and God sealed the entrance behind him and began the flood right away. Lot was pulled out of Sodom, and Sodom got destroyed right away.

any sort of "gap period" between the rapture and the wrath of God is wholly inconsistent with scripture.
Whether you believe "the seven year tribulation" is the wrath of God in its entirety.. or you understand when God's wrath begins (Revelation 6:17) because the bible never once says "the seven year tribulation", the picture that Jesus gave us.. is that the deliverance is just before God's wrath.

now before a post trib says "immediately after the tribulation".. yeah, that's true.

But understand the difference between tribulation and the wrath of God.
Before Revelation 6:17? That's the Great Tribulation. After? Wrath of God.
Not the same thing.

and you can prove this because of Matthew 24. Jesus marks the Great Tribulation as coming AFTER the 3.5 year mark in the 70th week.. and says immediately AFTER the Tribulation the sun and moon darken.
That's the 6th seal.
and just after the 6th seal is Revelation 6:17.. the wrath of God.
and the next chapter? Saints are praising God in huge numbers that can't even be counted.

it's just so consistent and reconciles all these seemingly conflicting statements.
"not appointed to wrath"
"immediately after the tribulation of those days"

Yup, both are true.

Luke 17 is certainly something to consider but what of verse Luke 17:31 ?
That doesn't fit with a rapture as there won't be any warning nor will there be any point in trying to get or do anything as those raptured won't be taking anything with them (well, except maybe for your mobile phone, its pretty much indispensable these days, no matter where you are!).

Also, if a rapture happened and then the 3.5 year wrath period some years or decades later, the world would have settled back into a normal rhythm of life, except that the time period may well have given time for the antichrist to come on the scene and establish themselves, debased behavior would likely be even more prevalent without the 'salt' of Christianity & certainly the rapture would give excuse for many different sects and cults (ie false Christs) to appear and explain it.
The antichrist + beast combo is a very religious figure, an event like the rapture would certainly make the world focus & widely accept religious ideas & explanations.

As to the 'same day', could be literal or could be figurative. 'The 'same day' being literal would torpedo the view I proposed, however if 'the same day' is figurative in any way & given verse 31 it may be, then the view proposed may well be viable.

 

[Jamdoc]

How did you come to that conclusion from what I said? In my view the 7th trumpet is after the 42 month reign of the beast. That means the beast is no longer reigning 42 months. That means the GT is over and is now the time of God's wrath. No one is handing anything back over to satan when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ. Pretribbers and midtribbers, though there is no such thing as midtrib, have the 7th trumpet basically meaning in the middle of the 70th week. I don't. I have the 7th trumpet meaning at the end of the 70th week.

Okay so how are you saying that the trumpets and vials can't be running in parallel if you understand that the 7th trumpet is at the end?

The beast is given 42 months to reign, but Jesus says that for the elect's sake, that time will be shortened (Matthew 24:22), IE the elect are not going to go through the full 42 months, they'll be delivered earlier. By how much? I don't know (that's part of why nobody knows the day or hour. Everyone knows when Armageddon will be, that's how Satan has an army prepared for it.. as we've seen from Russia.. logistics for a large army deployed can be a problem, so no they can't just have a massive army sitting at Armageddon waiting for an unknown date... they KNOW the date Armageddon happens, nobody will know when the 6th seal happens but God the Father)
But after the saints are removed early, the beast still has the 42 month reign going, it's just not warring against the saints anymore.. its' being hit by God's wrath. So the first trumpet, and the vials, are DURING the 42 months.

 

[Sorn]

The beast is given 42 months to reign, but Jesus says that for the elect's sake, that time will be shortened (Matthew 24:22), IE the elect are not going to go through the full 42 months, they'll be delivered earlier. By how much? I don't know (that's part of why nobody knows the day or hour. Everyone knows when Armageddon will be, that's how Satan has an army prepared for it.. as we've seen from Russia.. logistics for a large army deployed can be a problem, so no they can't just have a massive army sitting at Armageddon waiting for an unknown date... they KNOW the date Armageddon happens, nobody will know when the 6th seal happens but God the Father)
But after the saints are removed early, the beast still has the 42 month reign going, it's just not warring against the saints anymore.. its' being hit by God's wrath. So the first trumpet, and the vials, are DURING the 42 months.

Can you say when it (Armageddon) will be then?
Also, is the army Satan has a person army or a demon army as demons may well have different logistical requirements to a people army.

Also, won't the antichrist reign longer than 42 months but its just 42 months from when he declares himself God that he then has left

 

[Jamdoc]

Luke 17 is certainly something to consider but what of verse Luke 17:31 ?
That doesn't fit with a rapture as there won't be any warning nor will there be any point in trying to get or do anything as those raptured won't be taking anything with them (well, except maybe for your mobile phone, its pretty much indispensable these days, no matter where you are!).

Also, if a rapture happened and then the 3.5 year wrath period some years or decades later, the world would have settled back into a normal rhythm of life, except that the time period may well have given time for the antichrist to come on the scene and establish themselves, debased behavior would likely be even more prevalent without the 'salt' of Christianity & certainly the rapture would give excuse for many different sects and cults (ie false Christs) to appear and explain it.
The antichrist + beast combo is a very religious figure, an event like the rapture would certainly make the world focus & widely accept religious ideas & explanations.

As to the 'same day', could be literal or could be figurative. 'The 'same day' being literal would torpedo the view I proposed, however if 'the same day' is figurative in any way & given verse 31 it may be, then the view proposed may well be viable.

see, you need to divorce yourself from the "pre tribulation poof" hollywoodized illustration of the rapture.

Let's go to the most famous rapture passage

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

First thing's first, the rapture happens with the second coming. Too many pretribbers try to separate the two, without understanding that's unbiblical. Paul connected them, and that's not the only time. Let's keep going see the revelation of God through the writings of the Apostle Paul

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Paul connects the 2nd coming with the rapture, our gathering to Him.

1 Corinthians 15

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Titus 2

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Contrary to popular pretrib teaching.. Paul's not talking about a pretrib rapture as the blessed hope, He's talking about Jesus coming back. It says explicitly in the text.

So Paul did not teach a "secret pretrib rapture" where we just go poof suddenly. He taught that it was with the second coming of Christ, and that it would be a noisy, overt, impossible to hide or falsify event. No left behind confusion or spinning of worldly explanations to sudden disappearances. The people KNOW what has happened.

Jesus teaches an overt, unmistakable, noisy rapture as well.
Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So after you've seen the abomination of desolation, and during the great tribulation, when the Antichrist makes war on the saints, what keeps you going is knowing that someday soon, the sun and moon will darken (hence look up, lift up your head, for your redemption draws near). That's your warning.. the sun and moon going dark suddenly. When that happens, that's when you basically drop everything don't retreat and go into your house (Remember Lot's wife). What unbelievers do when this happen is hide in caves and bunkers. Don't be among them.

See Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

For the unbelievers, they know the wrath of God is coming, the event does not need to be explained away or hidden, they know what's happening. They know that this is the wrath of God, and they deserve it, they do not accept that Jesus will redeem you, if you place your faith in Him that He took your deserved punishment in your place on the cross.
But for we who believe? We know the day of the Lord is our redemption, we do not hide from it, we look up, and lift up our heads. When the cosmological signs happen, we run out to meet Him, while those in unbelief hide.

Further proof of the unbelievers knowing what it is, and not needing to have it "explained away" the way pretribbers think it has to happen requires dividing Revelation in half and understanding that Revelation 14:14-20 is the same as the 6th seal. But just before that.. check this out

Revelation 14

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is after the mark of the beast is introduced, but during its deployment/distribution, everyone is given the gospel, everyone is told God is going to judge them, and everyone is warned about the Mark of the Beast. Nobody has any excuse.
They are given the Gospel, as a last chance, reaching uncontacted people, or people who may have heard it in a misunderstood or flawed way, etc.

Then this happens

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

See, Jesus on the clouds, as in Matthew 24. Note that the first harvest of the earth is performed by Jesus, and they are not put through the wrath of God. Why? Because they are the people who belong to Jesus, and He has gathered them to Himself, the rapture, if you will.
The SECOND harvest is done by an angel, and it is the "clusters of the vine of the earth".. that is, they are earthly people not belonging to Jesus. THEY get put through God's wrath.

 

[Jamdoc]

Can you say when it (Armageddon) will be then?
Also, is the army Satan has a person army or a demon army as demons may well have different logistical requirements to a people army.

Also, won't the antichrist reign longer than 42 months but its just 42 months from when he declares himself God that he then has left

It'll either be 1260 days, or 1290 days after the Abomination of Desolation. Okay so not everyone, but between Daniel 12, and within Revelation talking about 1260 days, it's one of the two. Satan will know, he can read scripture. The fact that he does have an army prepared at the right place where Jesus will touch down at, at the right time proves it.

 

[PSUseagull]

Yeah I hear you on the books that all claim to have "the signs". It seems to have started with Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet earth, and yet none of us really know truely. The bookstores have made a fortune on books that proclaim to have interpreted the signs, and I've seen literally a hundred such books at least over the past 40 years. But I will point out that some Christians believe that prophecy continue even now, but it is my own personal belief that modern prophets are merely interpreting Scripture, not new true revelations from God, or otherwise the Canon would not be closed and such prophecies would have to be added to Scripture. But there are some Christians that think such prophecy does continue, so it isn't entirely accurate to imply all Christian churches don't believe prophets exist today. I think even some orthodox denominations are included.

"However, there’s great debate among Christians about whether prophecy still exists today. Christ-honoring people on both sides disagree with whether supernatural gifts like prophecy have ceased. And we may never find complete agreement on this side of Heaven. It’s obvious I don’t believe prophets still exist simply because their function has been fulfilled in the Bible, but people with greater knowledge, humility, and love for God’s Word would disagree with me."
Do Prophets Still Exist Today?

I hope you realize that the idea that the canon is closed is a man-made doctrine. There is nothing in the Bible that supports such a belief.

 

[Timtofly]

How did you come to that conclusion from what I said? In my view the 7th trumpet is after the 42 month reign of the beast. That means the beast is no longer reigning 42 months. That means the GT is over and is now the time of God's wrath. No one is handing anything back over to satan when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ. Pretribbers and midtribbers, though there is no such thing as midtrib, have the 7th trumpet basically meaning in the middle of the 70th week. I don't. I have the 7th trumpet meaning at the end of the 70th week.

Because there is no set of years in Daniel 9:27. It is a set of days. The days of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:7

The days of the 7th Trumpet is the confirming of the Atonement Covenant. This week of days is split in half to allow those 42 months if necessary. If those 42 months are not necessary, then this week is not split in half.

The whole point of the GT is the end of Adam's flesh. All humanity will die, or be part of the church. Some on earth will rule and reign with Christ, but not in Adam's corruptible dead flesh. Those who start the Millennium with Christ will have a permanent incorruptible physical body like Christ. Not the church already glorified in the full image of God. Those are whom cannot procreate. They will remain in Paradise. The church was complete at the Second Coming.

The Millennium reign is the kingdom that will be handed back to God after the 1,000 years. People on earth will still procreate, but not after Adam's fallen flesh. There will be no sin, nor Satan to tempt people to sin. It will be like the Garden prior to sin, and without the serpent. There will be law. But any disobedience will result in Death. But not to a corruptible body like Adam and Eve. Breaking a law is being placed in Death. Then Death is emptied out at the GWT. Right now souls are and will remain in sheol. That is for Adam's offspring. Death is the final place for those during the Millennium. I think sheol contains souls still in the Lamb's book of life. Their names removed at the GWT. Death on the other hand is final. Those souls were removed from the Lamb's book of life before they physically die. The goats in Matthew 25 have their names removed, and placed in Death which is permanent. All those who are marked by God with the number of the name of the beast, are removed from the Lamb's book of life when they receive the mark. When they physically die, they are placed in Death, not sheol.

The opening of the 4th Seal introduces Death. After the 7th Seal is opened, the book of life can be edited. Names will be removed, after that point. That is why the 144k are sealed before the 7th Seal is opened. They are granted a stay of removal, but obviously not part of the glorified church, found in the second half of the chapter.

The sheep separated after Jesus is seated on His glorious throne in Jerusalem remain in the Lamb's book of life. They rule and reign with Christ on earth. The wheat and tares are all other nations, who some remain in the Lamb's book of life. The rest removed and placed in Death. If those 42 months of longsuffering after the final harvest are allowed, that means a few more souls will remain in the Lamb's book of life. But to remain, one must have their head chopped of as an act of faith and Salvation. Otherwise they will be given the mark by God, and removed from the Lamb's book of life. That number is literally an expiration date stamp. They have lived past the time given to Adam for his punishment of sin and death and decay from a sin nature. The 6,000 years of Adam's punishment is coming to a close.

 

[Timtofly]

Luke 17 is certainly something to consider but what of verse Luke 17:31 ?
That doesn't fit with a rapture as there won't be any warning nor will there be any point in trying to get or do anything as those raptured won't be taking anything with them (well, except maybe for your mobile phone, its pretty much indispensable these days, no matter where you are!).

Also, if a rapture happened and then the 3.5 year wrath period some years or decades later, the world would have settled back into a normal rhythm of life, except that the time period may well have given time for the antichrist to come on the scene and establish themselves, debased behavior would likely be even more prevalent without the 'salt' of Christianity & certainly the rapture would give excuse for many different sects and cults (ie false Christs) to appear and explain it.
The antichrist + beast combo is a very religious figure, an event like the rapture would certainly make the world focus & widely accept religious ideas & explanations.

As to the 'same day', could be literal or could be figurative. 'The 'same day' being literal would torpedo the view I proposed, however if 'the same day' is figurative in any way & given verse 31 it may be, then the view proposed may well be viable.

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. The next few months of the GT, the Trumpets and Thunders are the final harvest. Jesus as Prince and all the angels are on earth harvesting souls. The bulk of humanity will be sent to eternal life or eternal death. There will only be a FP or beast, if there are gleanings. The gleanings are any souls who will remain in the Lamb's book of life. The only way to remain is to chop one's head off. The 42 months is not for Satan or the FP. The 42 months is for those last souls to die, and be resurrected in Revelation 20:4.

If there are no gleanings, there will be no 42 months. If the world repents and turns to Christ immediately before the Second Coming, there would be fewer people to harvest after the Second Coming. If war kills off billions just prior to the Second Coming, there still will be less souls to harvest.

The next event to God is the Second Coming. What humans do, could be anything.

 

[Sorn]

Because there is no set of years in Daniel 9:27. It is a set of days. The days of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:7

The days of the 7th Trumpet is the confirming of the Atonement Covenant. This week of days is split in half to allow those 42 months if necessary. If those 42 months are not necessary, then this week is not split in half.

The whole point of the GT is the end of Adam's flesh. All humanity will die, or be part of the church. Some on earth will rule and reign with Christ, but not in Adam's corruptible dead flesh. Those who start the Millennium with Christ will have a permanent incorruptible physical body like Christ. Not the church already glorified in the full image of God. Those are whom cannot procreate. They will remain in Paradise. The church was complete at the Second Coming.

The Millennium reign is the kingdom that will be handed back to God after the 1,000 years. People on earth will still procreate, but not after Adam's fallen flesh. There will be no sin, nor Satan to tempt people to sin. It will be like the Garden prior to sin, and without the serpent. There will be law. But any disobedience will result in Death. But not to a corruptible body like Adam and Eve. Breaking a law is being placed in Death. Then Death is emptied out at the GWT. Right now souls are and will remain in sheol. That is for Adam's offspring. Death is the final place for those during the Millennium. I think sheol contains souls still in the Lamb's book of life. Their names removed at the GWT. Death on the other hand is final. Those souls were removed from the Lamb's book of life before they physically die. The goats in Matthew 25 have their names removed, and placed in Death which is permanent. All those who are marked by God with the number of the name of the beast, are removed from the Lamb's book of life when they receive the mark. When they physically die, they are placed in Death, not sheol.

The opening of the 4th Seal introduces Death. After the 7th Seal is opened, the book of life can be edited. Names will be removed, after that point. That is why the 144k are sealed before the 7th Seal is opened. They are granted a stay of removal, but obviously not part of the glorified church, found in the second half of the chapter.

The sheep separated after Jesus is seated on His glorious throne in Jerusalem remain in the Lamb's book of life. They rule and reign with Christ on earth. The wheat and tares are all other nations, who some remain in the Lamb's book of life. The rest removed and placed in Death. If those 42 months of longsuffering after the final harvest are allowed, that means a few more souls will remain in the Lamb's book of life. But to remain, one must have their head chopped of as an act of faith and Salvation. Otherwise they will be given the mark by God, and removed from the Lamb's book of life. That number is literally an expiration date stamp. They have lived past the time given to Adam for his punishment of sin and death and decay from a sin nature. The 6,000 years of Adam's punishment is coming to a close.

So what exactly is Death, are people who break a law killed? Who gets to go into the 1000 year period to procreate? Are the people who rule with Christ different to the people who constitute the church?

 

[Sorn]

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. The next few months of the GT, the Trumpets and Thunders are the final harvest. Jesus as Prince and all the angels are on earth harvesting souls. The bulk of humanity will be sent to eternal life or eternal death. There will only be a FP or beast, if there are gleanings. The gleanings are any souls who will remain in the Lamb's book of life. The only way to remain is to chop one's head off. The 42 months is not for Satan or the FP. The 42 months is for those last souls to die, and be resurrected in Revelation 20:4.

If there are no gleanings, there will be no 42 months. If the world repents and turns to Christ immediately before the Second Coming, there would be fewer people to harvest after the Second Coming. If war kills off billions just prior to the Second Coming, there still will be less souls to harvest.

The next event to God is the Second Coming. What humans do, could be anything.

The only way to remain for what? So do any people survive the GT and go into the 1000 kingdom on Earth (current Earth)?

Edit - i see, remain in the Book of Life. ok. 2nd question remains however

 

[RandyPNW]

I'm nearing the 7 bowls of wrath and see some possible overlap with the 7 Trumpets. I found a video that depicts the 7 Seals proceeding the 7 bowls of wrath and 7 trumpets, where each bowl is in parallel with each trumpet. In other words, the 7 seals are sequental and 7 bowls and 7 trumpets are sequential, but each bowl = trumpet, so Trumpet 1 happens at the same time as the 1st bowl, 2nd trumpet = 2nd bowl, and so on. So for Futurists only, what is the chronological order of the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowls of wrath? Also, does the Lord's opening of the first seal represent the start of the 7 year period or the mid point of tribulation? Finally, I can't determine the timing of the rapture, but it seems clear it is either pre-trib or mid-trib. Which do you believe, and why?

Ideally I'd like to see the chronology in charts or any visual aide, but feel free to write paragraphs too.

Also if you know of a video that explains the chronology of Revelation that you found expecially insightful, please list that as well.

The reason you need charts is because the Revelation itself never intended it to be read this way, as if each vision represents an event in chronological order. Some of those wishing to predict things by interpreting symbols are searching for some kind of code to be channeled, acting like some kind of prophet or astrologer.

There is an element of puzzle-making, however, insofar as John is speaking to Christians who live in a hostile Roman environment. Things have to be interpreted without appearing to be devising ways of overthrowing Rome. And so, John used symbols for Rome, instead of directly referring to it.

I believe the sets of symbols, seals, trumpets, bowls, etc. are given not to establish a chronology, but to develop a full-bodied narrative. If there is a list at all, it is progressive, and not chronological. Instead of a series of visions taking place in chronological order of events, the series represent only the order in which John was given the Revelation. And each vision has its own chronology, interpreted within its own context.

It's like a painter painting a scene. The order in which he paints it has nothing to do with a chronology of events. It is just the progressive development of the picture.

What is the reason for using sets of seven? It seems an obvious reference to the days of creation, indicating the completion of God's work in redeeming it all. Light, sky, earth, geological times, sea creatures, and land creatures all have to be recovered from the effects of sin. And it seems God employs angels, along with His Son, to accomplish this.

To say there are seven in an order of timed events goes well beyond the idea, even if the narrative itself progresses from the beginning of the narrative to the end of the narrative. The chronology, therefore, in the Vision, largely has to do with John's own sense of time, as he begins to have visions and then sees his visions completed.

I see the main focus of the Revelation being on the 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule, after which a short time exists leading to world war. The rest of the Revelation deals with the then-current state of the 7 churches in Asia Minor, and with the matter of Christ's Kingdom coming to a world presently under judgment by God.

 

[DavidPT]

Okay so how are you saying that the trumpets and vials can't be running in parallel if you understand that the 7th trumpet is at the end?

The beast is given 42 months to reign, but Jesus says that for the elect's sake, that time will be shortened (Matthew 24:22), IE the elect are not going to go through the full 42 months, they'll be delivered earlier. By how much? I don't know (that's part of why nobody knows the day or hour. Everyone knows when Armageddon will be, that's how Satan has an army prepared for it.. as we've seen from Russia.. logistics for a large army deployed can be a problem, so no they can't just have a massive army sitting at Armageddon waiting for an unknown date... they KNOW the date Armageddon happens, nobody will know when the 6th seal happens but God the Father)
But after the saints are removed early, the beast still has the 42 month reign going, it's just not warring against the saints anymore.. its' being hit by God's wrath. So the first trumpet, and the vials, are DURING the 42 months.

What I would like to see is someone present a coherent timeline of the 7 trumpets and 7 vials and show where each fit in Matthew 24. But not in chart form since charts can be difficult to follow, especially if they are charts like Douggg tends to make. If we have the 42 month reign of the beast fitting during Matthew 24:15-26, then have the trumpets beginning during the 6th seal, in that case, the trumpets and vials could run in parallel since this would not contradict the first vial since this would be after the beast is already reigning.

But what happens when we get to the 5th and 6th trumpet events, though? The 5th trumpet involves the bottomless pit being opened. The 6th trumpet involves the 2Ws, and at the end of their testimony they are waged war against then killed by the beast who is no longer reigning 42 months since that reign ended once the 6th seal events got underway. It is during the beast's 42 month reign that he makes war with anyone. He doesn't do that after his reign has ended.

As to the 6th seal events, how much time should we assume that involves? If we have to fit 7 trumpets and 7 vials into the 6th seal, that's a lot of events taking place after the beast has already reigned 42 months.

 

[Timtofly]

I hope you realize that the idea that the canon is closed is a man-made doctrine. There is nothing in the Bible that supports such a belief.

Does perfect mean complete?

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect (complete) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

"Knowing" and "prophecy" imply the Word of God, Scripture.

 

[DavidPT]

The reason you need charts is because the Revelation itself never intended it to be read this way, as if each vision represents an event in chronological order. Some of those wishing to predict things by interpreting symbols are searching for some kind of code to be channeled, acting like some kind of prophet or astrologer.

How can there be 7 trumpets, for example, but that the events are not in chronological order? Since when does 1 not come before 2, 2 does not come before 3, etc? If each trumpet event represented a day of the week, for example, trumpet 1 representing Sunday, trumpet 2 representing Monday, trumpet 3 representing Tuesday, etc, how can what happens on Wednesday happen on another day instead, such as Sunday? The point being, one can't change the chronological order of a week, so the same should be true if there are 7 trumpet events, one can't change the chronological order of them either, 1 always comes before 2, 2 always comes before 3, the same way Sunday always comes before Monday, Monday always comes before Tuesday.

 

[Timtofly]

So what exactly is Death, are people who break a law killed? Who gets to go into the 1000 year period to procreate? Are the people who rule with Christ different to the people who constitute the church?

That is what I posted. The church is complete at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal.

The sheep and wheat during the Trumpets and Thunders are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom.

Just like the disciples and apostles were OT born and raised, but the firstfruits of the NT church. The sheep and wheat were alive on earth at the Second Coming, but not part of the church. They are elect of God to be on earth as firstfruits of the Millennium. They rule over their offspring up to 30 generations in 1,000 years. A generation every 20 years is 5 generations each century. A new generation every 40 years is still about 2.5 every century. Whatever the happy medium will be somewhere between the 2.

In Isaiah 65 it says they will build houses and never leave that house for the whole time. So each generation will keep expanding across the earth. Of course there will be a remnant from other nations besides Israel.

 

[DavidPT]

People on earth will still procreate, but not after Adam's fallen flesh. There will be no sin, nor Satan to tempt people to sin.

We better hope each couple are legally married then, and that in God's eyes He sees them that way, otherwise there is going to be a whole lot of sinning going on, though you indicate no sin taking place. In the age we are living in, procreation is taking place, except not everyone participating in that are even married.

 

[Sorn]

That is what I posted. The church is complete at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal.

The sheep and wheat during the Trumpets and Thunders are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom.

Just like the disciples and apostles were OT born and raised, but the firstfruits of the NT church. The sheep and wheat were alive on earth at the Second Coming, but not part of the church. They are elect if God to be on earth as firstfruits of the Millennium. They rule over their offspring up to 30 generations in 1,000 years. A generation every 20 years is 5 generations each century. A new generation every 40 years is still about 2.5 every century. Whatever the happy medium will be somewhere between the 2.

In Isaiah 65 it says they will build houses and never leave that house for the whole time. So each generation will keep expanding across the earth. Of course there will be a remnant from other nations besides Israel.

You haven't answered my question about those that break the law. Will they be killed at the time they break the law, allowing for trial time etc?

Re the sheep & wheat, are you saying that there will be people who are not Christians (or Jews) but yet who survive the GT and goon to re-populate the Earth in the 1000 period?, in plain english please
Will these people be different from current humans and if so how?

So where could I, as a Christian, expect to be during the 1000 year period?

 

[Sorn]

We better hope each couple are legally married then, and that in God's eyes He sees them that way, otherwise there is going to be a whole lot of sinning going on, though you indicate no sin taking place. In the age we are living in, procreation is taking place, except not everyone participating in that are even married.

Maybe the institution of marriage will change, especially if people are going to live for hundreds of years, you better really get on with your life partner!