What is so wrong with socialism?

[DogmaHunter]

I oppose government controlling things. I DO feel that we should help others, but little to no government assistance ( with tight restrictions.)

If you are asked the question what the role of a government is, what would be your answer?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Much of the opposition to socialism has to do with the idea of private business ownership (which, in a true socialist state, would be abolished).

You are confusing socialism with communism.
They are not the same thing.

 

[DogmaHunter]

It is morally repugnant for one party, be it government or not, to forcibly take private wealth from one person and give it to another.

So you are against any form of taxes?

 

[DogmaHunter]

One problem with socialism is that it is an absolutely destructive system; destructive to the middle class, destructive to the ability of people to improve their lives, destructive to improving the quality of life, destructive to human freedoms and highly destructive to any economy which has ever utilized it.

Then why does every single statistic on "societal health" show far better scores for socialistic secular democracies?

People look at Europe and pretend that it's working.

There's no need to pretend. It IS working.
http://www.presscave.com/top-best-countries-to-live-in-the-world/

7 of the top 10 best countries to live in are European nations with socialistic systems.
Note that the US isn't even on the list.

However, if the nations of Europe had to grow their own food and provide their own defense their dysfunctional economies would all collapse. Only free market capitalism allows a man to be born a slave and become a businessman; to be born dirt poor and to become the president, to start with nothing and become a billionaire.

I live in Belgium. A country with one of the heaviest tax rates in the world. Heavily socialist.

I come from a rather low-income family. My dad worked in a factory at the assembly line for 40 years. My mother did a similar job.

I went to university and studied ICT (which I wouldn't have been able to afford, if it wasn't for subsidies by the socialist government)

I started working as a developer. 10 years later, I founded my own company (again with the help of subsidies from the social government - which I didn't really need, but the help was welcome anyways).

Now, I'm doing very very well. I'm not a "millionaire", but I sure surpassed the financial state of my parents. My business is still expanding and if all goes well, I sure will be able to reach that 7 figure mark on my bank account.

I'm living evidence that what you say is simply wrong.

Socialism is all about oligarchic control of the masses. It discourages dreamers and has to convince people that they have no hope so they will be happy with the crumbs thrown to them by government.

/wave

It would seem that you are extremely incorrect about that.

There are socialist nations in Europe. If you would rather work for the government than have the government work for you, please go there. In America, you are the enemy. You are an enemy to the American people just like the terrorists, the racists, the street gangs and the corrupt politicians.

That's a rather insulting and disgusting thing to say.

You represent everything America was founded to escape. True freedom for all is not perfectly applied and our system is not without its problems, but the fact is that you can still have anything you want if you can help enough people get what they want. Millionaires are still created every day from simple people who want a better life for their families. A rising tide lifts all boats. One man's success does not come at the expense of another man's failure.

My success in the software business is entirely my own doing. And not at the expense of anybody.

 

[Armoured]

Then why does every single statistic on "societal health" show far better scores for socialistic secular democracies?




There's no need to pretend. It IS working.
http://www.presscave.com/top-best-countries-to-live-in-the-world/

7 of the top 10 best countries to live in are European nations with socialistic systems.
Note that the US isn't even on the list.



I live in Belgium. A country with one of the heaviest tax rates in the world. Heavily socialist.

I come from a rather low-income family. My dad worked in a factory at the assembly line for 40 years. My mother did a similar job.

I went to university and studied ICT (which I wouldn't have been able to do without subsidies from the social government - which I didn't really need, but the help was welcome anyways).

I started working as a develop. 10 years later, I founded my own company (again, with the help of the socialist government through some subsidies for start ups).

Now, I'm doing very very well. I'm not a "millionaire", but I sure surpassed the financial state of my parents. My business is still expanding and if all goes well, I sure will be able to reach that 7 figure mark on my bank account.

I'm living evidence that what you say is simply wrong.



/wave

It would seem that you are extremely incorrect about that.



That's a rather insulting and disgusting thing to say.




My success in the software business is entirely my own doing. And not at the expense of anybody.

You have to remember that to the usual suspects, "socialism" and "Stalinist wasteland" are absolutely interchangeable.

 

[Jan Volkes]

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” ~ Margaret Thatcher

That is the one of the most true statements ever spoken. Money cannot go on forever.

It can if it's moved around responsibly, if a very few people have it all as happens in the US the bottom falls out of the country and millions of people are made to suffer.

Social democracy works in every country where it has been properly implemented, unfortunately for the US a lot of people who see themselves as 'Pioneers' have got to pass on in the US before social democracy can even be tried, which means millions more Americans must suffer before the problems can even be addressed..

Have you ever wondered why Margaret Thatcher is never quoted by any British papers or MP's? because Margaret Thatcher
did nearly as much damage to the UK as Hitler. [perhaps that's going a tiny bit too far]
In the way George W is never quoted [other than when people need to laugh or how to waste money].

 

[Jan Volkes]

You have to remember that to the usual suspects, "socialism" and "Stalinist wasteland" are absolutely interchangeable.

A lot of Americans do not know what social democracy is but they have been brain washed into believing that it's bad,
they don't know why it's bad but they have been convinced by the people who are making all the money that it is.

I can imagine that quite a lot of Americans are totally embarrassed by the mental state of most of their fellow Americans,
the ones I have met do not even want to talk about the subject, they just shake their heads and move on.
.

 

[Albion]

This is a question for my American cousins: what is so wrong with socialism? Is it true that Americans hate socialism or is this just what gets shown in the media?

As a Brit living in (what America would call a socialist country) the UK I'm very happy with this style of government.

Where's the beef, here?

I think you're right that most Americans are opposed to Socialism. What's wrong with it is pretty obvious, I'd think--it's morally wrong to steal, whether it's done through the government's police or by an individual. Sure, those who get some of the loot say they like that. Why wouldn't they? And that's to say nothing of the fact that Socialism doesn't work. The best that its fans can say is that it sometimes works somewhat well if it's not really Socialism but a mixed economy.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I think you're right that most Americans are opposed to Socialism. What's wrong with it is pretty obvious, I'd think--it's morally wrong to steal, whether it's done through the government's police or by an individual.

Is this how you feel about all taxation? That it is no more than theft?

 

[Jan Volkes]

I think you're right that most Americans are opposed to Socialism. What's wrong with it is pretty obvious, I'd think--it's morally wrong to steal, whether it's done through the government's police or by an individual. Sure, those who get some of the loot say they like that. Why wouldn't they? And that's to say nothing of the fact that Socialism doesn't work. The best that its fans can say is that it sometimes works somewhat well if it's not really Socialism but a mixed economy.

The government already steals most of your money now and you don't even notice them doing it and you think you're free,
believe me all you have is the illusion of being free.
Do you have work based health insurance?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

There are socialist nations in Europe. If you would rather work for the government than have the government work for you, please go there. In America, you are the enemy. You are an enemy to the American people just like the terrorists, the racists, the street gangs and the corrupt politicians.

Uhh no. I am not the enemy of my country. The people who think their way is the only way are dangerous. The people who would call their own countrymen enemies are in fact, the enemies of America. The people who wish to do away with religious freedom and establish a quasi-theocracy in the preferred flavor of Christianity, are the enemies of America.

You represent everything America was founded to escape.

You mean religious oppression? Tell it to the theocrats in our country that wish for society to follow their religious commandments.

 

[Albion]

Is this how you feel about all taxation? That it is no more than theft?

If you're going to make a case for Socialism, you're going to have to make a case for...SOCIALISM.

All that this teaser of a question amounts to is what I referred to in my previous post--that proponents of Socialism don't even have the courage of their convictions and, therefore, rely upon advocating or defending little bits of government policy here or there as though the antithesis of Socialism were some Hobbesian State of Nature in which there is no social order at all.

 

[Willtor]

I think you're right that most Americans are opposed to Socialism. What's wrong with it is pretty obvious, I'd think--it's morally wrong to steal, whether it's done through the government's police or by an individual. Sure, those who get some of the loot say they like that. Why wouldn't they? And that's to say nothing of the fact that Socialism doesn't work. The best that its fans can say is that it sometimes works somewhat well if it's not really Socialism but a mixed economy.

Whatever you want to call it. The point is, a lot of countries are thriving with public health, public higher education, public housing, welfare, etc. It can work. Some of them have higher rates of entrepreneurship than we (in the U.S.) have. They attribute it to these public services.

We could have nice things, too.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

You have to remember that to the usual suspects, "socialism" and "Stalinist wasteland" are absolutely interchangeable.

And anyone who disagrees is an enemy of America the likes of which could only be surpassed by terrorist organizations like ISIS.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

If you're going to make a case for Socialism, you're going to have to make a case for...SOCIALISM.

All that this teaser of a question amounts to is what I referred to in my previous post--that proponents of Socialism don't even have the courage of their convictions and, therefore, rely upon advocating or defending little bits of government policy here or there as though the antithesis of Socialism were some Hobbesian State of Nature in which there is no social order at all.

Well when you talk about taxation as if it were some new thing Obama invented to rob the American people of their riches... I just can't take you very seriously.

So I had to gauge just how serious you are with this idea that taxation = theft.

 

[Albion]

Whatever you want to call it. The point is, a lot of countries are thriving with public health, public higher education, public housing, welfare, etc.

If we were going to discuss such a society, that should have been the question asked. It wasn't. The question of the thread asked "What is so wrong with Socialism?"

 

[Albion]

So I had to gauge just how serious you are with this idea that taxation = theft.

Rest assured that if I had wanted to say that "taxation = theft," I would have written exactly that.

 

[Willtor]

Well when you talk about taxation as if it were some new thing Obama invented to rob the American people of their riches... I just can't take you very seriously.

So I had to gauge just how serious you are with this idea that taxation = theft.

This. I haven't heard anybody here advocate for anarchy. The right question is: what services should the government provide? Not: is tax equivalent to stealing from people?

If we were going to discuss such a society, that should have been the question asked. It wasn't. The question of the thread asked "What is so wrong with Socialism?"

And what you don't want to call socialism is what most people in those countries call socialism. If you don't like it, come up with a word to differentiate. I'm not married to the term "socialist." I'm compelled by what some of these self-proclaimed "socialist" countries are doing for their people.

 

[Albion]

And what you don't want to call socialism is what most people in those countries call socialism.

That may be true. Socialists don't want to come clean about what Socialism really is, so they describe a mixed economy or laud Social Security and try to make out that that is Socialism...and so the average person thinks that's the case because they've heard this mischaracterization used so often and, after all, it sounds reasonable enough to them. Of course, you could also describe Communism or Monarchism the same way--by picking out a few agreeable social characteristics--and implying that this is all that it's about.

 

[Jan Volkes]

If you're going to make a case for Socialism, you're going to have to make a case for...SOCIALISM.

All that this teaser of a question amounts to is what I referred to in my previous post--that proponents of Socialism don't even have the courage of their convictions and, therefore, rely upon advocating or defending little bits of government policy here or there as though the antithesis of Socialism were some Hobbesian State of Nature in which there is no social order at all.

Do you think the US should adopt Total Capitalism or just a version of it?

Democratic socialism works in most European countries and quite a lot of countries around the world so what more can I say? the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
To make it easy why don't you point out a country [other than Greece] where properly implemented democratic socialism hasn't worked?
As Willtor said it works and people benefit because it works.