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What is so wrong with socialism?

ChristsSoldier115

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But that's the problem. People don't freely give enough. Voluntary charity is wonderful, but it's inadequate to meet the needs. Example: Suppose we relied on charity instead of tax-funded Medicaid to cover medical costs for low income persons. Here's some 2013 data:

Total 2013 Medicaid spending: $449.4 billion. Link.

Total 2013 charitable giving: $416.5 billion. (And this was a record high.) Link.

So if every cent given to charity was used for poor people's health care, there would still have been a $30 billion shortfall. And no money would have been available for disaster aid, education, scientific research, support of churches, and all the other things charity is used for. It's an utterly naive fantasy to think that if the tax burden were reduced, a social safety net could be maintained by voluntary donations. It's never worked before in an urbanized society (think of Dickensian London.) Besides, by it's very nature, charity is fragmented and unsystematic. There are 1000s of charities, each doing their own thing, with no way to organize how the funds are distributed. And charitable giving can be significantly affected by economic cycles. Downturns reduce tax revenue, too, but not to the degree voluntary donation is. Which makes matters critical. During hard times, when folks need help the most, there's less money available.

You know that's one of the main reasons Social Security was enacted. The Great Depression especially devastated the elderly. Even if they could find jobs,many were physically unable to work. And their families were also unemployed and couldn't help them. Charities did what they could but were overwhelmed. The only solution was a publicly funded old-age pension system.

The proper role of charity is to supplement and complement the social welfare system. It can never replace it.

You would think with these programs, and with the supposed 70ish% of self proclaimed Christians in america that we would have zero problems with poor and homeless, with a Christian principle of charity and helping the poor a big part of being a Christian, but strangely we do. A combination of Christian charity on top of these programs.. you would think would have our numbers be to the point we read about it as something that used to be in a history book. Most curious to me as a Christian.
 
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amanuensis63

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yes, however it should be the case that people give freely. Otherwise, in the law it is out and out ROBBERY. By law, in most cases that is the FORCEFUL taking of something as opposed to simple theft. Either by means of violentence or threats of voleience. That and would you rather someone help because they HAD to or because they WANTED to which means more? For that matter, which would GOD want?

This is an extreme position. I've seen several on CF who espouse much the same philosophy. That taxes which are enforced by law are effectively the exact same thing as armed robbery. That is absurd on its face. One can always leave the country. But humans are "social animals". Society works because we all take a sense of "sacrifice" for things we don't necessarily value in return for those that we do. If I don't want to see my tax money go to support something I don't like I can assuage my sadness by knowing it goes to much more that I DO value and that I DO need and want.
 
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Hank77

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It is morally repugnant for one party, be it government or not, to forcibly take private wealth from one person and give it to another.
I agree. So why are the wealthy allowed to do that and well as those who choose to collect welfare rather than work?
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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Honestly, I always see the "What about those who refuse to work?" Does anybody have a reliable source that proves this strange idea that all, if not most, people on welfare refuse to work?

Everyone I know who is on some sort of welfare benefit works their butts off every day. So I am wondering how many are not working and just sitting at home getting a check?
 
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amanuensis63

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Honestly, I always see the "What about those who refuse to work?" Does anybody have a reliable source that proves this strange idea that all, if not most, people on welfare refuse to work?

Nope. In fact most people who go on assistance don't stay there that long. This idea that some have that there is this vast group of their fellow Americans who are lazy beyond avarice is insulting and disgusting.

If welfare was such a sweeeeet deal you'd think more people would go on it. In my decades on this planet I don't think I've met many people who would CHOOSE to stay idle and unemployed.

Everyone I know who is on some sort of welfare benefit works their butts off every day. So I am wondering how many are not working and just sitting at home getting a check?

Not as many as the GOP would want you to believe.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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Nope. In fact most people who go on assistance don't stay there that long. This idea that some have that there is this vast group of their fellow Americans who are lazy beyond avarice is insulting and disgusting.

If welfare was such a sweeeeet deal you'd think more people would go on it. In my decades on this planet I don't think I've met many people who would CHOOSE to stay idle and unemployed.



Not as many as the GOP would want you to believe.

From what I read, some people on welfare are sometimes stuck in a revolving door with the system. They get a job, they get off welfare, they get fired.. they're back on welfare. They aren't always necessarily getting fired on purpose to "milk the system' either.

Edit: Nobody wants to be poor and barely survive on crappy government hand outs on purpose. I think that is a myth, if that was true we would have more people sucking it dry. Who wants to be stuck in the stigma that is attached to being poor? Nobody.
 
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KWCrazy

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One problem with socialism is that it is an absolutely destructive system; destructive to the middle class, destructive to the ability of people to improve their lives, destructive to improving the quality of life, destructive to human freedoms and highly destructive to any economy which has ever utilized it. Socialism plays to the ignorance of people who think that they have less because others have more. Its proponents have absolutely no clue as to the functioning of economics. They think that that prosperity is achieved by confiscating the wealth of producers and sharing it with non-producers. People look at Europe and pretend that it's working. However, if the nations of Europe had to grow their own food and provide their own defense their dysfunctional economies would all collapse. Only free market capitalism allows a man to be born a slave and become a businessman; to be born dirt poor and to become the president, to start with nothing and become a billionaire. Socialism is all about oligarchic control of the masses. It discourages dreamers and has to convince people that they have no hope so they will be happy with the crumbs thrown to them by government.

There are socialist nations in Europe. If you would rather work for the government than have the government work for you, please go there. In America, you are the enemy. You are an enemy to the American people just like the terrorists, the racists, the street gangs and the corrupt politicians. You represent everything America was founded to escape. True freedom for all is not perfectly applied and our system is not without its problems, but the fact is that you can still have anything you want if you can help enough people get what they want. Millionaires are still created every day from simple people who want a better life for their families. A rising tide lifts all boats. One man's success does not come at the expense of another man's failure.
 
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Hank77

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yes, however it should be the case that people give freely. Otherwise, in the law it is out and out ROBBERY. By law, in most cases that is the FORCEFUL taking of something as opposed to simple theft. Either by means of violentence or threats of voleience. That and would you rather someone help because they HAD to or because they WANTED to which means more? For that matter, which would GOD want?
And....
Money is stolen from all taxpayers and given to large corp. through subsidies, laws written to favor certain industries, hedge funds, etc., and tax laws that favor the wealthy.
I want a system that is fair across the board. No itemized tax deductions for anyone, period. A set standard deduction per tax household, the rest is taxed at the same flat rate across the board. That is fair.
A - owns and home and gives 10% of his income to charities - that 10% is not taxed
B - doesn't own a home and gives 10% of his income to charities - that 10% is taxed
A - deducts 7% of his income in out of pocket medical expenses - not taxed
B - pays 7% of his income in out of pocket medical expense - taxed
I could go on and on and that's without addressing non-taxable transfers of wealth as gifts, etc. Or the unjustified tax deductions for businesses. Billions of dollars go untaxed every year, legally.

Why should the single, no children taxpayer pay more taxes, on the same income, than the married, 6 kid household? If you choose to have six kids don't expect other taxpayers to help feed your kids. Many of these middle class families criticize the very poor family for getting help with their housing costs or food stamps and will say, well they wouldn't need help if they didn't have all those kids. Huh? Looks to me like your getting help with the expense of raising your kids. You just don't see it that way, you don't see how your household is being subsidized through tax laws.
 
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Hank77

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Honestly, I always see the "What about those who refuse to work?" Does anybody have a reliable source that proves this strange idea that all, if not most, people on welfare refuse to work?

Everyone I know who is on some sort of welfare benefit works their butts off every day. So I am wondering how many are not working and just sitting at home getting a check?
Go to work for social services and you will see it, I have a family member who is a social worker. But there are more who would rather be working. One problem is that when they do go to work at a minimum wage job often they end up with less than they had before because they loose too much of the help they had, such as medicaid compared to crappy employer, high deductible medical ins. that they have to help pay for. They actually are worse off than they were.
Personally I believe if someone needs to be on welfare they should be working in some way. It is good for their self-esteem and a good example for their children. There are multiple ways a program could be worked out that would be a benefit to them, to the public, and to the economy.
 
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amanuensis63

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One problem with socialism is that it is an absolutely destructive system;


ONLY if people decide to make it so. There is nothing inherently destructive in socialism.


Think about YOURSELF when you say these things. If tomorrow your company asked you to take a pay cut to stay employed would you quit immediately? Most people wouldn't (I know this because at one point the company I work for did that to the workforce due to exigencies).

But if you are right then people would quit in droves because it is "destructive" to move backwards.

How about "underemployment"? There are thousands upon thousands of Americans right now who are UNDEREMPLOYED, taking jobs well below their previous income level or education. Again I know this from experience when I finished my second postdoctoral position and I was looking for a job. I hid my PhD in order to get a job.

And I'm not alone in this sort of thing. Americans are humans and they are NOT as viciously lazy as some would have us believe and the only way socialism can be "destructive" would be if everyone was a horrible as some would have us believe.

destructive to the middle class, destructive to the ability of people to improve their lives,

This is absurd in the face of the last 30 years. In the last 30 years middle class wages have effectively STAGNATED while those at the top have increased many, many times over. And the country's productivity has increased.


Right now we have RECORD BREAKING capitalization of industry with the DJIA at all time historic highs, meanwhile many of us in the middle haven't seen much of an increase in pay at all. Most years IF my company gives out raises it is barely at cost-of-living rates!

And I work for a Fortune 50 company.

So if socialism is bad because it is destrucitve of the ability of people to improve their lives, then capitalism is equally destructive.

Socialism plays to the ignorance of people who think that they have less because others have more.

You DO have less because those at the top have more. The CEO of your company (if you work at a large company) has likely seen several hundred percent increase in salary and pay over the last couple decades. You and the other middle level folks haven't gotten much if any of that. Where does a 100% raise year over year for an executive come from? Where does that money come from?

They think that that prosperity is achieved by confiscating the wealth of producers and sharing it with non-producers.

And here we have it: the dreaded "non-producer". What a laugh. There aren't that many non-producers. But keep that meme going. It's an easy strawman to set fire to.

People look at Europe and pretend that it's working.

You are probably going to focus on Greece, Portugal and Italy. While you will actively ignore Belgium, Finland, Netherlands and Germany, economies that are doing quite well. In fact many are doing as good as the US. But the US really did help drop EVERYONE a peg or two by their shenaningans in 2007-8 that spread like a cancer across the rest of the developed world.

Only free market capitalism allows a man to be born a slave and become a businessman; to be born dirt poor and to become the president

LOL! Yeah, there are LOT of dirt poor people who can easily raise $2 billion to buy their way into the White House.

There are socialist nations in Europe.

Either you just crawled out of a bomb shelter from 1950 or you don't quite understand what you are talking about. The "socialist" nations in Europe are almost all "social democracies" in the model of VERY capitalist countries that just happen to have better social systems.


I'm sorry but I work with various European corporations in my job and they are capitalists too.

You should get a passport and travel.

 
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KWCrazy

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There is nothing inherently destructive in socialism.

Tell that to Greece. Tell that to the FORMER USSR. Tell that to the 200 million people killed by socialist countries in the last century. The US didn't become the world's lone superpower by embracing socialism. America feeds and defends half the world because of our capitalist system. Do you really think our farmers would work 16 hours per day and invest everything they made in making their farms more efficient and productive if there was no reward for them for the effort? The reason you have a computer right now is because Bill Gates and Steve Jobs found a way to get wealthy by bringing them to you.


If tomorrow your company asked you to take a pay cut to stay employed would you quit immediately?
My company did just that. When the business started making money again everyione who stayed was repaid with interest. Those who left found other jobs.
But if you are right then people would quit in droves because it is "destructive" to move backwards.
It depends on the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] picture. If you're talking about a permanent demotion, it would be a good time to seek a better paying job.

How about "underemployment"? There are thousands upon thousands of Americans right now who are UNDEREMPLOYED, taking jobs well below their previous income level or education.

I didn't vote for that moron. People elected a socialist and American businesses suffer. When businesses suffer, American workers suffer. Ask anyone from Ohio or West Virginia who lost a good paying job in the coal industry because a blithering idiot with no understanding whatever of economics got elected president.
Americans are humans and they are NOT as viciously lazy as some would have us
I work in an industry that is struggling to survive because it can't get qualified workers who are willing to get off their duffs and go to work for a better-than-average wage.

In the last 30 years middle class wages have effectively STAGNATED
while those at the top have increased many, many times over.

Yep. Jobs are being driven overseas, business owners aren't re-investing, excessive regulation has driven some businesses out of existence and the climate hatred for the wealthy has resulted in many people pulling back from their investments and keeping their capital liquid until the climate improves.
Right now we have RECORD BREAKING capitalization of industry with the DJIA at all time historic highs, meanwhile many of us in the middle haven't seen much of an increase in pay at all. Most years IF my company gives out raises it is barely at cost-of-living rates!
Have you seen what this administration has done with the cost of health insurance? Ours has doubled twice since America elected Obama.

So if socialism is bad because it is destrucitve of the ability of people to improve their lives, then capitalism is equally destructive.

Which is why the poor in America live better than the rest of the world.
You DO have less because those at the top have more.

I'm sorry that you don't understand economics.
Unfortunately, that is all to common.

Joey opens a lemonade stand. People get fresh lemonade, Joey makes a profit.
Joey takes his profits and opens another stand. People get fresh lemonade, Billy makes money selling lemonade, Joey makes a profit.

Joey gets older and opens a string of lemonade stands. Billy becomes vice president of operations. People get fresh lemonade, dozens of people have jobs, Joey makes a profit.
Joey takes his formula to a distributor and markets it nationwide. Billy sells his shares of stock and retires. Hundreds of people now have jobs. Joey makes a profit.
Obama gets elected. Since Joey supported the Republican candidate, the president sets the IRS to try and shut Joey down. When that fails, the Obama controlled FDA changes their regulations and Joey can no longer manufacture his product in the US. The company moves to Mexico, all the American workers lose their jobs. Joey retires. People still get lemonade, but all the profits go outside the country.
That's what happens when America elects socialists.

There aren't that many non-producers.
There are 90 million Americans out of work. What are they producing?
Yeah, there are LOT of dirt poor people who can easily raise $2
billion to buy their way into the White House.

Carter wasn't rich.
Reagan wasn't born rich.
Clinton didn't come from wealth.
Obama wasn't born into wealth.

Anyone who doesn't believe that people can still rise from obscurity to prominence really has no knowledge of how wealth is created in America.

I'm sorry but I
work with various European corporations in my job and they are capitalists too.
There is still some capitalism operation in Europe, which is why there are still countries in Europe that haven't failed yet. Given the trend toward socialism, it's only a matter of time.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I disagree.
I find it much more repugnant for the rich to groe richer from the exploitation of the poor.

Define 'exploitation'.

If by 'exploitation', you mean the person (the business owner) that took all of the initial risk and gambled with his own family's stability in order to start a company of his own reaping the benefits of that risk by being in a position where he can pay others the market rate for certain tasks he doesn't want to personally perform, then I disagree with your definition.

While there are some "Paris Hilton" type stories, where people luck into positions of wealth thanks to mommy & daddy, far more millionaires made their fortune on their own, starting off from "regular Joe" beginnings... In fact, nearly 80% of millionaires are first generation millionaires.

If you look at the CEO who's playing golf and sitting a comfortable office, chances are, if you rewind 15-20 years, that person was likely working long hours, sacrificing time with his family, and taking considerable risks.

The owner of my company is only in the office 10-15 hours a week, plays a lot of golf, and travels a lot...now... in 2015. In order to get to that position, he took a loan against his own home in 1986, and he and 2 friends spent 60-70 hours a week working out of his basement for little money (for nearly 8 years) in order to get the company off the ground in order to build it up to a position in which he could live the good life.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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There is nothing inherently destructive in socialism.

Maybe not inherently 'destructive' (although there have been cases when it has been destructive).

The main problem is that socialism and communism is that they falsely purport to be systems of equality. The reality is that there will always be people who utilize their skills & their brains to have more than others. When you constantly try to create an equality of wealth via government intervention, you always punish those who are innovative, and reward the lowest common denominator. (and that's directed more at communism than socialism obviously)

Wealth equality is just something that can't be achieved without heavy handed government.

Example:

Let's say we all start out with $1. I decide that I'm going to go out to a field, and pick some vegetables, and sell them. I sell you some carrots for your $1. You eat the carrots, and now they're gone...now I have $2, and you have nothing. The only way the government can make it equal again is if they take a dollar from me, and give it to you...IE: I just got cheated out of my labor, and you just got free food.
 
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pakicetus

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It is morally repugnant for one party, be it government or not, to forcibly take private wealth from one person and give it to another.
The distribution of wealth depends on the economic and social order, there's nothing sacred about it.
 
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LionL

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Define 'exploitation'.
For example, a man earns minimum wage in his poor condition factory job. As a consequence he cannot get a mortgage and so must rent. This is ironic as the cost of renting is higher than the cost of a mortgage would be. Nevertheless, he must rent and in so doing is lining the pockets of someone who owns a portfolio of 80 houses, each of which he rents to those less fortunate than himself. I call that exploitation.

The owner of my company is only in the office 10-15 hours a week, plays a lot of golf, and travels a lot...now... in 2015. In order to get to that position, he took a loan against his own home in 1986, and he and 2 friends spent 60-70 hours a week working out of his basement for little money (for nearly 8 years) in order to get the company off the ground in order to build it up to a position in which he could live the good life.
And lots of other people work the same number of hours on minimum wage just to get by and have done for 40 years or so. Are you suggesting that they deserve to be poor because they don't work as hard as you boss did once, long ago?
 
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Oafman

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One thing that is obviously 'wrong' with socialism is that many people have no idea what it is. Ignorance on the subject leads people to say things like
There are socialist nations in Europe.
There are of course no socialist nations in Europe. There hasn't been any since the wall came down. Every single country in Europe, with no exceptions, is a capitalist market economy.

If an economy allows individuals to own businesses, then you don't have socialism. You have capitalism. I can't make it any more straightforward.

Tell that to Greece.
I love the fact that Greece gets a left-wing government (not socialist - see above), and within 6 months it's "Look what the socialists did to the Greek economy!!1!". The problems of the Greek economy are the result of failed market economics. It was a badly run capitalist state.

There is still some capitalism operation in Europe, which is why there are still countries in Europe that haven't failed yet. Given the trend toward socialism, it's only a matter of time.
Europe has been moving further to the right for at least 3 decades, in economic terms, with a general overall decrease in the proportion of most countries' public spending. Please tell us more about this 'trend towards socialism'.
 
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Armoured

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“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” ~ Margaret Thatcher
*smirk* you understand that shareholder capitalism is all about other people's money, too?
 
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ebia

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But what if really does help people? Would you still oppose it then?

What if we took government out of all things considered "social help"? So that the next time you have a burglary, you have to call a private security company instead of the police.
And without a public justice system,...
 
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RC1970

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*smirk* you understand that shareholder capitalism is all about other people's money, too?

*smirk* Yes, but at least it's my choice and I have at least the illusion that I'm going to get something in return.
 
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