What is so wrong with socialism?

Larniavc

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This is a question for my American cousins: what is so wrong with socialism? Is it true that Americans hate socialism or is this just what gets shown in the media?

As a Brit living in (what America would call a socialist country) the UK I'm very happy with this style of government.

Where's the beef, here?
 

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There is nothing wrong with socialism. After all, Jesus was the first socialist.

In the US, people tend to be equally divided on the issue, along party lines. Democrats love socialism, while Republicans hate it.

I could never vote for a Republican. Under Republicans, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, which displeases God I'm sure.
 
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dogs4thewin

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I oppose government controlling things. I DO feel that we should help others, but little to no government assistance ( with tight restrictions.)
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Much of the opposition to socialism has to do with the idea of private business ownership (which, in a true socialist state, would be abolished).

When many Americans refer to socialism and "socialist" countries, they're mistaken on the definition. Many of the "socialist" countries that are referred to, are actually Nordic Capitalist. (Competitive markets, but with a much larger public sector than what we have)

As I noted earlier, social ownership of industry is one thing that some take issue with, the other is the lack of accountability in terms of the social safety nets.

We have some social aspects here in the US that would be problematic if we tried to implement the Nordic style of a welfare state.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapot...billion-a-year-disability-industrial-complex/

According to the official UK government figures, the fraud rate for benefits programs is holding at around 0.7%
According to the BLS for the US, our rate over the last decade has been anywhere from 1.9% - 2.6%

The unfortunate reality is, here in the US, we have much larger number of people (than what you have in the UK) that would be eagerly looking for a way to scam the system. That's why so many are concerned with the idea of making our benefits systems even more expansive.
 
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Vylo

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Socialism has a tendency to quash competition, much like capitalism can in its later stages (crony capitalism), this hampers innovation and growth. Either striking a balance, or "resetting" capitalism tends to work best, but the later gets bloody fast.
 
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jayem

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This is a question for my American cousins: what is so wrong with socialism? Is it true that Americans hate socialism or is this just what gets shown in the media

Not completely true. We love socialism that benefits the middle class. Our Social Security retirement and Medicare are beyond a doubt the most popular government programs of all time. Federal unemployment insurance not quite so much. It's those programs that everyone pays for, but only benefit selected persons that raise some ire. Like Medicaid, food stamps, and TANF.

Just for the record, both Social Security and Medicare are having landmark birthdays this year. The Social Security Act will be 80 years old on Aug. 14. And Medicare was 50 on July 30. These are now as much a part of American life as the World Series and Superbowl. So much so that many folks don't even recognize them as socialism.
 
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Willtor

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I'm an American socialist. There are plenty of us, but I think the popular perception of what you describe comes from an era where fear of the Soviet Union led to heavy handed propaganda that influenced a few generations. If you had been in the U.S. during the 2008 election, there was massive messaging accusing Obama of being a socialist. But even in spite of that, he won. So I think some of the conditioning is starting to wear off.
 
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LionL

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It is morally repugnant for one party, be it government or not, to forcibly take private wealth from one person and give it to another.
I disagree.
I find it much more repugnant for the rich to groe richer from the exploitation of the poor.
 
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LionL

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“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” ~ Margaret Thatcher
Ah, Thatcher. The woman who destroyed Britain.
Another of her quotes:- "There is no such thing as society."
 
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dogs4thewin

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“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” ~ Margaret Thatcher
That is the one of the most true statements ever spoken. Money cannot go on forever.
 
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dogs4thewin

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I disagree.
I find it much more repugnant for the rich to groe richer from the exploitation of the poor.
yes, however it should be the case that people give freely. Otherwise, in the law it is out and out ROBBERY. By law, in most cases that is the FORCEFUL taking of something as opposed to simple theft. Either by means of violentence or threats of voleience. That and would you rather someone help because they HAD to or because they WANTED to which means more? For that matter, which would GOD want?
 
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Cearbhall

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This is a question for my American cousins: what is so wrong with socialism?
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with most aspects of it, but one problem is that it collapses if you aren't able to police it enough to make sure that huge numbers of people aren't taking advantage of it. It's an economic system that relies on transparency, and that's hard to ensure in a country of 320 million people stretched out over 3.8 million square miles.
 
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Willtor

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yes, however it should be the case that people give freely. Otherwise, in the law it is out and out ROBBERY. By law, in most cases that is the FORCEFUL taking of something as opposed to simple theft. Either by means of violentence or threats of voleience. That and would you rather someone help because they HAD to or because they WANTED to which means more? For that matter, which would GOD want?

I think God wants me to help the poor. A big help would be the establishment of social safety nets that reduce or eliminate homelessness and make normal medical care accessible to them. I'll use my vote to that end.

When I meet God on the last day, if He faults me for abusing the wealthy, then I will throw myself on His mercy. But in the Bible, God never destroyed a society because its wealthiest members were oppressed. The poor, on the other hand...
 
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Cearbhall

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It is morally repugnant for one party, be it government or not, to forcibly take private wealth from one person and give it to another.
However, morality is completely subjective.
 
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jayem

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yes, however it should be the case that people give freely.

But that's the problem. People don't freely give enough. Voluntary charity is wonderful, but it's inadequate to meet the needs. Example: Suppose we relied on charity instead of tax-funded Medicaid to cover medical costs for low income persons. Here's some 2013 data:

Total 2013 Medicaid spending: $449.4 billion. Link.

Total 2013 charitable giving: $416.5 billion. (And this was a record high.) Link.

So if every cent given to charity was used for poor people's health care, there would still have been a $30 billion shortfall. And no money would have been available for disaster aid, education, scientific research, support of churches, and all the other things charity is used for. It's an utterly naive fantasy to think that if the tax burden were reduced, a social safety net could be maintained by voluntary donations. It's never worked before in an urbanized society (think of Dickensian London.) Besides, by it's very nature, charity is fragmented and unsystematic. There are 1000s of charities, each doing their own thing, with no way to organize how the funds are distributed. And charitable giving can be significantly affected by economic cycles. Downturns reduce tax revenue, too, but not to the degree voluntary donation is. Which makes matters critical. During hard times, when folks need help the most, there's less money available.

You know that's one of the main reasons Social Security was enacted. The Great Depression especially devastated the elderly. Even if they could find jobs,many were physically unable to work. And their families were also unemployed and couldn't help them. Charities did what they could but were overwhelmed. The only solution was a publicly funded old-age pension system.

The proper role of charity is to supplement and complement the social welfare system. It can never replace it.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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I oppose government controlling things. I DO feel that we should help others, but little to no government assistance ( with tight restrictions.)
But what if really does help people? Would you still oppose it then?

What if we took government out of all things considered "social help"? So that the next time you have a burglary, you have to call a private security company instead of the police. You'll be getting a bill in the mail for that. Same goes for fires. Let's say there's a fire in your house. You're gonna have to hire a private fire department for which you'll be billed for their service. And if we ever have to go to war... You better be ready to take up arms and join a militia because the government no longer takes people's money to fund their defense. And no one else is going to waste their time or money trying to defend you when they have their own family to protect.

There's some things that should never be privatized.
 
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amanuensis63

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This is a question for my American cousins: what is so wrong with socialism? Is it true that Americans hate socialism or is this just what gets shown in the media?

As a Brit living in (what America would call a socialist country) the UK I'm very happy with this style of government.

Where's the beef, here?

Socialism is a dirty word in the US. Americans love their sense of "self-sufficiency" (we call it our "pioneer spirit") which doesn't brook any need of "help" from other people.

Another reason it is largely disliked in the US is our inherent sense of "fairness". And by fairness what I mean is "If I worked for it then I shouldn't have to give to anyone else unless I explicitly want to." Socialism takes that freedom from us and makes some of us feel like there are other people who are getting a benefit they didn't earn.

This of course overlooks all the benefits we get from each other but, hey, that's the thinking.

There are some Americans who are OK with socialism, many more who are ok with a more socialist-tinged version of our current system but a LOT who cannot differentiate between a social democracy and Stalinism.

The idea of some slacker in the inner city getting ANYTHING from our hard work is beyond the pale for some of us here in the US. And you'll see a lot Christians who think that Christ himself would be on their side as well.
 
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amanuensis63

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It is morally repugnant for one party, be it government or not, to forcibly take private wealth from one person and give it to another.

^^^^THIS^^^^ This is the "fairness ideal" I was talking about.

Personally I find that to be an "anti-social" position (in the strictest sense of the word, in that without this concept society cannot really exist.)
 
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