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What is purgatory???

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by gwyyn, May 25, 2002.

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  1. Trento

    Trento Senior Veteran

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    If the baptized person fufils the obligations demanded of a Christian,he does well. If he does not--provided he keeps the faith,without which he would perish forever--no matter in what sin or impurity remains,he will be saved,as it were,by fire; as one who has built on the foundation,which is Christ,not Gold,silver, and precious stones,but wood, hay straw,that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works."
    Augustine,Faith and Works,1:1(A.D. 413),in ACW,48:7

    "Now on what ground does this person pray that he may not be 'rebuked in indignation, nor chastened in hot displeasure"? (He speaks) as if he would say unto God, 'Since the things which I already suffer are many in number, I pray Thee let them suffice;' and he begins to enumerate them, by way of satisfying God; offering what he suffers now, that he may not have to suffer worse evils hereafter."
    Augustine,Exposition of the Psalms,38(37):3(A.D. 418),in NPNF1,VIII:103




    Other husbands scatter on the graves of their wives violets, roses, lilies, and purple flowers; and assuage the grief of their hearts by fulfilling this tender duty. Our dear Pammachius also waters the holy ashes and the revered bones of Paulina, but it is with the balm of almsgiving."
    Jerome,To Pammachius,Epistle 66:5(A.D. 397),in NPNF2,VI:136


    Give,Oh Lord,rest to Thy servant Theodosius,that rest Thou hast prepared for Thy saints....I love him,therefore will I follow him to the land of the living;I will not leave him till by my prayers and lamentations he shall be admitted unto the holy mount of the Lord,to which his deserts call him."
    Ambrose,De obitu Theodosii,PL 16:1397(A.D. 395),in CE,577



    Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness."
    Clement of Alexandria,Stromata,6:14(post A.D. 202),in ANF,II:504
     
  2. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

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    Annabell



    Sorry to get back so late,


    What are you reading and where is it found?



    Richard
     
  3. UnderdogEnt

    UnderdogEnt Prayer Warrior

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    About the Jewish prayers for the dead, most Protestant denominations do not accept the Apocrypha to be an inspired part of the Bible, so it isn't much use for proving the existence of purgatory to us. I can see why you quote it though, because it shows part of the reason why the Catholic church believes in Purgatory. Do Jews believe ib the Apocrypha? I understand that they prayed for the dead so that may have forgiveness before Jesus came (and still do? I don't know), but they also made sacrifices so that they would be forgiven before Jesus came to be the ultimate sacrifice and to provdie us with eternal forgiveness. God bless!
     
  4. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    It is my understanding that while Jews don't accept the Apocrypha as canonical Scripture, it is still held to be sacred writing, and it is referred to in the Talmud quite often.

    As for Jewish prayers for the dead, their doctrine is similar to the Catholic concept of Purgatory, in that they believe that praying for a departed loved one can actually help wipe out their sins after death; (the Catholic concept would be that the sins are wiped out by direct action of Christ on the cross---Purgtaory is simply the last stage of that atonemment), and both Jews and Catholics believe that praying for the departed or performing good works for their benefit can hasten their eventual entry to heaven. A couple links:

    (from http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/yahrzeit/kaddish.htm: )
    (from http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/yahrzeit/yizkor.htm: )
    So you can see the similarities there between the Catholic and Jewish belief. :)
     
  5. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

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    trento,



    Big zero, on all the referneces provided, I can now see, why purgatory, has to be accepted by faith.


    It simply is a place that does not exist.


    Believing that it does, will not produce it, nor will it deliver anyone from the eternal punishment that comes for all who die in their sin.

    If purgatory is the hades tertullian has mentioned in the quote above ; hades is the same place Jesus mentions when recounting the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16:20-31;

    Strongs Concordance Greek Dictionary #86 ha'des (hah'-dace) defines it as "Hades" or the place (state) of the departed souls;-grave. hell.

    In the account Lk 16:20-31;

    A great gulf was fixed between Lazarus who was in "Abrahams bosom" v-22, and the Rich Man who was tormented in HELL v-23, so that neither could pass over to the other side v-26


    Lazarus, was not in hades the Rich Man was, it is a place of torment and suffering , a place where those that die go, a place where the unrepent go, and according to v-30, a place where those that never believed Moses, much less them that don't believe Jesus's OWN WORDS which he spoke as comanded by the father, who rose from the dead after giving and testifying Gods word to men according to v-31.

    Heb 1
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son ,
    2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard , lest at any time we should let them slip.
    2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward ;
    3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord , and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

    Jesus is the prophet Moses speaks of in Deut 18:18.



    Contrary to popular belief; There is no escape from hell/hades; the end of it and all who go their is the eternal Lake of Fire.


    Mt 10
    28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .

    Mt 23
    33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell ? for those that reject the truth!

    2 Pet 2
    4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
    9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

    Rev20
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire .

    Faith in Gods WORD, delivers sinners from their Sin.


    John 3
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life .



    Their is no other way.






    Richard
     
  6. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Well, I'm glad that you got that straightened out for yourself, Richard. :) I, of course, disagree, but that's fine, nobody says you have to agree with me.

    Now, what's next?
     
  7. Trento

    Trento Senior Veteran

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    Hades, the temporary two part receptacle of the conscious dead who are awaiting judgment No 0 yet Lion. :D ---------Tertullian "Thus, too, Eleazar in Hades, attaining refreshment in Abraham’s bosom and the rich man, on the other hand, set in the torment of fire compensate, by an answerable retribution, their alternate vicissitudes of evil and good. (Tertullian, on Idolotry, ch 13)

    Tertullian "The Soul’s Corporeality Demonstrated Out of the Gospels - So far as the philosophers are concerned, we have said enough. As for our own teachers, indeed, our reference to them is ex abundanti—a surplusage of authority: in the Gospel itself they will be found to have the clearest evidence for the corporeal nature of the soul. In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence. But what is that which is removed to Hades after the separation of the body; which is there detained; which is reserved until the day of judgment; to which Christ also, on dying, descended? I imagine it is the souls of the patriarchs. But wherefore (all this), if the soul is nothing in its subterranean abode? For nothing it certainly is, if it is not a bodily substance. For whatever is incorporeal is incapable of being kept and guarded in any way; it is also exempt from either punishment or refreshment. That must be a body, by which punishment and refreshment can be experienced. Of this I shall treat more fully in a more fitting place. Therefore, whatever amount of punishment or refreshment the soul tastes in Hades, in its prison or lodging, in the fire or in Abraham’s bosom, it gives proof thereby of its own corporeality. For an incorporeal thing suffers nothing, not having that which makes it capable of suffering; else, if it has such capacity, it must be a bodily substance. For in as far as every corporeal thing is capable of suffering, in so far is that which is capable of suffering also corporeal." (Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, Chapter 7)
     
  8. Trento

    Trento Senior Veteran

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    Lion; What Jews believed Hades was is disclosed in the fallowing discourse to the greeks by Josephus so in Lukes story of Lazarus the first christians prayed for the people who were recieving temporary punishment in a seperate part of Hates as the Jews would. Enjoy


    Josephus was not a Christian, but a Jewish historian who wrote in about 75AD. Also note that Hades and Hell are two different things. Josephus verifies this difference.

    Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.
    In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.
    For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoic in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.
    But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the angels appointed over them to reproach them and threaten them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still downwards. Now those angels that are set over these souls drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a near view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it.
    This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season, which God hath determined, when he will make a resurrection of all men from the dead, not procuring a transmigration of souls from one body to another, but raising again those very bodies, which you Greeks, seeing to be dissolved, do not believe [their resurrection]. But learn not to disbelieve it; for while you believe that the soul is created, and yet is made immortal by God, according to the doctrine of Plato, and this in time, be not incredulous; but believe that God is able, when he hath raised to life that body which was made as a compound of the same elements, to make it immortal; for it must never be said of God, that he is able to do some things, and unable to do others. We have therefore believed that the body will be raised again; for although it be dissolved, it is not perished; for the earth receives its remains, and preserves them; and while they are like seed, and are mixed among the more fruitful soil, they flourish, and what is sown is indeed sown bare grain, but at the mighty sound of God the Creator, it will sprout up, and be raised in a clothed and glorious condition, though not before it has been dissolved, and mixed [with the earth]. So that we have not rashly believed the resurrection of the body; for although it be dissolved for a time on account of the original transgression, it exists still, and is cast into the earth as into a potter's furnace, in order to be formed again, not in order to rise again such as it was before, but in a state of purity, and so as never to he destroyed any more. And to every body shall its own soul be restored. And when it hath clothed itself with that body, it will not be subject to misery, but, being itself pure, it will continue with its pure body, and rejoice with it, with which it having walked righteously now in this world, and never having had it as a snare, it will receive it again with great gladness. But as for the unjust, they will receive their bodies not changed, not freed from diseases or distempers, nor made glorious, but with the same diseases wherein they died; and such as they were in their unbelief, the same shall they be when they shall be faithfully judged.
    For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brought before God the word: for to him hath the Father committed all judgment : and he, in order to fulfill the will of his Father, shall come as Judge, whom we call Christ. For Minos and Rhadamanthus are not the judges, as you Greeks do suppose, but he whom God and the Father hath glorified: Concerning Whom We Have Elsewhere Given A More Particular Account, For The Sake Of Those Who Seek After Truth. This person, exercising the righteous judgment of the Father towards all men, hath prepared a just sentence for every one, according to his works; at whose judgment-seat when all men, and angels, and demons shall stand, they will send forth one voice, and say, Just Is Thy Judgment; the rejoinder to which will bring a just sentence upon both parties, by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain fiery worm, never dying, and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with never-ceasing grief: neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance. But the just shall remember only their righteous actions, whereby they have attained the heavenly kingdom, in which there is no sleep, no sorrow, no corruption, no care, no night, no day measured by time, no sun driven in his course along the circle of heaven by necessity, and measuring out the bounds and conversions of the seasons, for the better illumination of the life of men; no moon decreasing and increasing, or introducing a variety of seasons, nor will she then moisten the earth; no burning sun, no Bear turning round [the pole], no Orion to rise, no wandering of innumerable stars. The earth will not then be difficult to be passed over, nor will it he hard to find out the court of paradise, nor will there be any fearful roaring of the sea, forbidding the passengers to walk on it; even that will be made easily passable to the just, though it will not be void of moisture. Heaven will not then be uninhabitable by men, and it will not be impossible to discover the way of ascending thither. The earth will not be uncultivated, nor require too much labor of men, but will bring forth its fruits of its own accord, and will be well adorned with them. There will be no more generations of wild beasts, nor will the substance of the rest of the animals shoot out any more; for it will not produce men, but the number of the righteous will continue, and never fail, together with righteous angels, and spirits [of God], and with his word, as a choir of righteous men and women that never grow old, and continue in an incorruptible state, singing hymns to God, who hath advanced them to that happiness, by the means of a regular institution of life; with whom the whole creation also will lift up a perpetual hymn from corruption, to incorruption, as glorified by a splendid and pure spirit. It will not then be restrained by a bond of necessity, but with a lively freedom shall offer up a voluntary hymn, and shall praise him that made them, together with the angels, and spirits, and men now freed from all bondage.
    And now, if you Gentiles will be persuaded by these motives, and leave your vain imaginations about your pedigrees, and gaining of riches, and philosophy, and will not spend your time about subtleties of words, and thereby lead your minds into error, and if you will apply your ears to the hearing of the inspired prophets, the interpreters both of God and of his word, and will believe in God, you shall both be partakers of these things, and obtain the good things that are to come; you shall see the ascent unto the immense heaven plainly, and that kingdom which is there. For what God hath now concealed in silence [will be then made manifest,] what neither eye hath seen, nor ear hath heard, nor hath it entered into the heart of man, the things that God hath prepared for them that love him.
    In whatsoever ways I shall find you, in them shall I judge you entirely: so cries the End of all things. And he who hath at first lived a virtuous lift, but towards the latter end falls into vice, these labors by him before endured shall be altogether vain and unprofitable, even as in a play, brought to an ill catastrophe. Whosoever shall have lived wickedly and luxuriously may repent; however, there will be need of much time to conquer an evil habit, and even after repentance his whole life must be guarded with great care and diligence, after the manner of a body, which, after it hath been a long time afflicted with a distemper, requires a stricter diet and method of living; for though it may be possible, perhaps, to break off the chain of our irregular affections at once, yet our amendment cannot be secured without the grace of God, the prayers of good men, the help of the brethren, and our own sincere repentance and constant care. It is a good thing not to sin at all; it is also good, having sinned, to repent; as it is best to have health always, but it is a good thing to recover from a distemper. To God be glory and dominion for ever and ever Amen.
     
  9. Elnaam

    Elnaam Member

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    VOw Writes "If you die with the stain of a "non-deadly" sin upon your soul, you must be cleansed of this stain before you can be permitted in the presence of God. God detests sin. The concept of Purgatory is a process to remove this stain. The old Baltimore Catechism made Purgatory sound like a school detention room, where you had to sit quietly for a certain amount of time to "pay" for these sins."

    Just where can I find this in the Scriptures ? Hebrews 9:27 states that all men are given to men to die once THEN JUDGEMENT. Once you die it's too late.


    Vow continues "Truthfully, Purgatory is more like a process, and even Paul talks about a cleansing fire. Once we leave this world, this existence, time, energy, space, everything we know will pass away. We have no concept of how everything will be, so our attempts at trying to explain are very incomplete."

    Truthfully? Whose truth? Not the Scriptures and just where does Paul do this?

    Vow quotes scripture : John discusses the types of sin in 1 John 5:16-17
    quote:
    16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.
    Kindly read it again:
    There is A sin singluar a sin unto death. Namley Blaspheme against the HS in which there is no forgiveness. That is the sin unto death.



    Vow states what Catholic apologist wrong assume is prove of purgatory: Paul discusses the accomplishments of a person, and compares them to temporary things (hay, straw) and permanent things (gold, silver). 1 Corinthians 3: 12-15
    quote:
    12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If the work stands that someoen built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

    However the emphasis of this passage is the testing of works, not the burning of men! Notice that the works will become evident, the works will be tested. The RCC wrongly assigns the burning to the man rather then his works!
     
  10. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

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    It's in the Bible in the same way the Trinity is.

    And I suppose you might not be able to find it in the Bible to your satisfaction, but it's your choice to believe sola scriptura.

    Too late to do what? I get the feeling from this statement that you don't quite understand Purgatory.

    -Chris
     
  11. Trento

    Trento Senior Veteran

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    1 Cor:
    11 for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

    Since the Scripture will not allow a distinction between sins and bad works, the Protestant exegesis of 1 Cor 3:10-17 cannot be correct. But without such a distinction, there is virtually no room in sola fide theology to account for passages such as these. Consequently, since "bad works" are sins, as Catholic theology teaches, then indeed Christians will be judged for their sins and recompensed accordingly. Some will be "destroyed," some will "be saved by fire," and others will receive their heavenly reward immediately.

    When everything is taken into account, the Catholic interpretation of 1 Cor 3:15 is the only one that honestly addresses all the relevant Scriptural data concerning the future judgment for a Christian's works.

    First, it is clear from 1 Cor 3:17 that those who deliberately and consistently build with defective materials in an attempt to destroy the temple of God are to receive the ultimate punishment - they will be destroyed by God Himself. The final destruction Paul has in view refers to eternal damnation (cf., Ezekiel 13:10-16; 22:28-30; Luke 12:47; Hebrews 10:26-39). Second, 1 Cor 3:8 and 3:14 speaks of those whose work survives the test of fire and who will be rewarded according to their labor. The better his work, the better his reward. The reward refers to the eternal state of heaven in which, as Catholic doctrine teaches, those who have been more dedicated to the work of Christ will receive a greater reward or higher place in heaven.
    Third, 1 Cor 3:15 speaks of a man who builds with defective material, but it is not to the same degree as the man in verse 17 who ends up destroying the temple. Based on the difference in degree, the man in verse 15 is eventually saved, but the man in verse 17 is not. The "fire" endured by the man in verse 15 that eventually leads to his salvation is what Catholic theology understands as the state of purgatory.
     
  12. UnderdogEnt

    UnderdogEnt Prayer Warrior

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    Just want to point out that once we are saved, nothing can separate us from God's love.

    Romans 8:38-29
    "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."


    God bless!
     
  13. Elnaam

    Elnaam Member

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    However the Bible is quite clear:
    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    There is no such thing as a venial sin. All sins will leave you hell bound, unless you repent.
    The fact of the matter is that Purgatory is a catholic invention to sell indulgences, to which armies where raised and estates plundered. Now if you find the truth offensive, it often is.
     
  14. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

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    You should become a Catholic apologist, you are very good at stating the Catholic position, and backing it up with scripture (well, except for the second sentence)

    I'm trying to find the 'truth' in that paragraph, but all I see is unsupported anti-Catholic crap. Where exactly did you get these ridiculous ideas?

    -Chris
     
  15. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Elnaam:

    Try Galatians 5: 19-21
    Note where Paul says, "those who do such things will not inherit the kigndom of God."


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  16. Elnaam

    Elnaam Member

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    what things ? If you believe in a system of salvation you will not inherit the Kingdom of God either
     
  17. Elnaam

    Elnaam Member

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    Anti-catholic crap ?? Now that is ridiclous. I got this "anti-catholic crap" from church history! And it is easly proven.
     
  18. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Elnaam:

    Please give us the source of your "church history." Links and/or standard bibliographic reference are fine.

    As for "things," again, read Galatians 5: 19-21
    Paul is talking to the Church of Galatia. He's giving instructions to the members there on what NOT to do, that if they do such works of the flesh, they will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. These are church members he's talking to, the "saved." And they CAN jeopardize their inheritance by these works of the flesh.

    Purgatory is NOT a "system of salvation," and has never been presented as such.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  19. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

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    Thanks, but that's not MY opinion.
     
  20. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    Wow---We've been discussing this very thing (actually, in a couple of threads, but one is >46 pages...).

    I just posted on this very thing, including a treatise on 1Cor3! Come on over and check it out!!! (This one is only 9 pages so far...) click here!

    :)
     
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