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What is purgatory???

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by gwyyn, May 25, 2002.

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  1. UnderdogEnt

    UnderdogEnt Prayer Warrior

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    I can see how Galatians 5:19-21 can look like it is talking about sins separating us from heaven, but if you go on to read Galatians 5:24-25 you will find that there is more to the story.

    "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit."

    This is saying that those who have been saved have crucified the sinful nature. We are no longer sinners, but saints who occasionally sin. It's saying that because we live through Jesus, we should also live for Him. This is meant to encourage Christians to live their lives morally and out of loving reverance for God. But yes, those sins mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 are spiritually deadly to those who do not belong to Christ.

    God bless!
     
  2. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

    +3
    Christian
    "...they that do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God." (See Col. 3:24; Eph. 5:4; 1 Cor. 6:9) The context of these verses is the loss of rewards or inheritances for Christians at the Judgment Seat of Christ. I Cor. 3:13-16 "shall suffer loss."
     
  3. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Underdog and Julie:

    The flesh is supposed to be crucified, and we will be known by the fruits of the Spirit, yes. But we are still in danger of the flesh. If we weren't, Paul would never have MENTIONED those sins of the flesh in the same breath as the ones who belong in Jesus.

    And Julie....Paul clearly says, "you will not inherit the kingdom of God." He doesn't talk about rewards, he's saying you WILL lose your ticket to Heaven! You do these works of the flesh, you WILL NOT INHERIT the kingdom of God!

    Yes, we will sin occasionally in our walk with Christ. We're fallible humans, and we must still live in the sinful world. Satan rubs his hands in glee at the thought of all those juicy ex-lost-sheep, and he's going to throw obstacles at us right and left. And Paul is admonishing the Church members in Galatia to watch out for the temptations of those works of the flesh. The flesh is SUPPOSED to be crucified, but the temptations will still be there.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  4. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

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    Christian
    I do not believe so. JuliE :pink:
     
  5. Elnaam

    Elnaam Member

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    I beg to differ purgatory is part of the system of slavation that the RCC offers.
     
  6. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Elaam:

    Your PERCEPTION may be that Purgatory is a system of Salvation, but in truth, and by definition, it is not. Purgatory does not offer a second chance at Salvation. If you have not accepted the Gift of Life through the sacrifice of Jesus and His Resurrection, then you don't go to Purgatory. Period.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  7. Nilhil Obstat

    Nilhil Obstat GO Fighting irish!

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    No, it is NOT.

    Purgatory is NOT a second chance at salvation, you are either going to heaven or to hell.

    I noticed this issue has been covered in a few other threads and has to deal with whether we die in a state of grace with God OR if we die in mortal sin, which separates us from God altogether.
     
  8. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Very well; please cite for me quotations from official Vatican documents drawn from actual Catholic Magesterial teachings which corroborate your statement above.

    Standard bibliographic reference will be fine.

    I'll wait.
     
  9. Elnaam

    Elnaam Member

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    From the CCC
    1031. "The Church gives the name PURGATORY to this final purification of the e
    lect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on PURGATORY especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent.

    In other words a made up doctrine giving you another chance at slavation.
    Countering all Biblical references to: Justification, salvation, and judgement. It holds out a false hope of a second chance.

    The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[Cf. 1 Cor 3:15 ; 1 Pet 1:7 .]
    Not one of these attests to any such thing as a purgatory.

    "As for certain lesser faults,"
    There is no such thing as a "lesser fault--"the wages of sin is death."
    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


    "we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire."

    WHY must I believe?
    Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:



    He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31 .] "
    "From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come

    In other words a second chance at slavation ! Sins are supposedly forgiven after you die ! IN direct conflict with the clear teaching of Scripture!
    The fact is that scripture is taken out of its context. We can discount this fantastic assumption with the parallel passage in Mark 3:29 which takes the sense of "neither in the [world to come]" meaning as never ! (cf. also, Luke12:10) Besides, the RCC teaches purgatory is a place of suffering that will not be in the world to come. Futhermore, RC teaching on purgatory is not forgiveness, but satisfaction!



    "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin."
    Chp and verse for that absurd statement !




    " On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called PURGATORY."
    Chp and verse ! PLEASE !
    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins...



    "This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin."


    Chp and verse if you please !
    Instead we read:
    Colo 2: 3 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
    14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
     
  10. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Elnaam:

    From your post:
    The ELECT are the SAVED, and the DAMNED are the ones who are NOT saved. By DEFINITION of the Catholic Church, this is NOT a second chance at Salvation.


    Peace,
    ~VOW
     
  11. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Elaam:

    ALL sin is not deadly sin. See 1 John 5: 16-17
    Let's get the facts straight, okay?


    Peace,
    ~VOW
     
  12. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    How can it possibly be a second chance? You really don't understand the doctrine at all if you think that.

    Try to find a reference from the Catechism that says unsaved people can use Purgatory as a 'second chance'. You won't be able to.

    -Chris
     
  13. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    Elnaam -

    You are reading your own interpretation into that passage.

    I am looking through the Catechism now to get more information.
     
  14. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Elnaam -
    The passages you quote speak of purification; they say nothing about "second chances at salvation".

    Try again.

    Maybe it might help if I were to ask you: according to Catholic doctrine, who, specifically, goes to Purgatory? What is their spiritual status?
     
  15. UnderdogEnt

    UnderdogEnt Prayer Warrior

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    Ok, I understand that it is believed that Purgatory is not a second chance to be saved, it is supposed to be a place to be purified. Sorry Elnaam, I'm a Protestant too but that verse from the Catechism (sorry if misspelled) book doesn't look like its saying that it is a second chance for salvation. I still don't believe in Purgatory, but I think that they've got to be right that the RCC doesn't teach it is a last chance for unsaved believers to accept Christ.
    As far as the deadly sins go, VOW, I won't speak for Elnaam's beliefs because I don't know what they are, but as I've stated earlier in the forum, I don't hold that to mean that the sins spoken of in that verse are spiritually deadly but physically. All sin results in spiritual death, but I believe the ones spoken of there are also physical causes of death. It is saying that we should pray for others who have committed sins that don't cause them to physically die, and also that we should not pray for those who have already died because it is too late to make a change.
    Peace be with you all and God bless!
     
  16. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Underdog:

    I've heard that explanation before, that John is talking about sins which cause physical death. I admit, it makes sense in the explaining, but if you think about it, the reasoning appears to fall apart. WHICH sin causes physical death? All of the sins ever mentioned in the Bible have the potential to cause death eventually, but I can't think of ANY which create an immediate threat of physical death. Drunkenness, licentiousness, idolatry, acts of selfishness, immorality... How do those cause PHYSICAL death directly?

    If you are going to use the explanation that John is talking about sins which cause physical death, I'd like to know which ones you mean.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  17. UnderdogEnt

    UnderdogEnt Prayer Warrior

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    Vow, that's a good point. I can't think of any sins that cause immediate death, except maybe suicide. I was thinking along the lines of murder can get you put to death, drugs can kill you, and promiscuity can contract STDs. But your point still stands, all of those take time for the sinner to die. I'll have to inspect further.

    The best I can do for now, is that if you read the verses after the one posted there is more to the story.

    1 John 5:18-19
    "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one that was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one."

    Still, I for one know that I still sin but I am born of God as the verse says. According to the verse though, it says that I do not continue to sin and that Jesus keeps me safe so that the evil one cannot harm me. This follows directly after the Scripture you quoted, so maybe it is saying that Christians (those born of God) cannot lose salvation, as in the part where it says that the evil one cannot harm me. This may be a faulty interpretation, but that's what I got from it after reading those verses together.
    Also, I have a question: I understand that Purgatory is not believed to be a second chance at salvation, but if a believer commits a mortal sin and does not repent (is repenting enough or do they need to go to confession?) can they lose their salvation? Sorry to bundle those questions together, but not being a Catholic I don't know. Thanks and God bless.
     
  18. panterapat

    panterapat Praise God in all things!

    +36
    Catholic
    Purgatory- Through Jesus's cross and resurrection we are forgiven our sins. But these sins still need paid for. Lets say you are playing baseball in your parents yard. The ball breaks through your father's window. Your father will certainly forgive you, but he may also require you to pay for a replacement window. The forgiveness is our justification through the Cross. The payment for the window is Purgatory. However, time in Purgatory can be lessened by our sacrifices and deeds while on earth. The Beatific vision (seeing God) is too much for our sinful souls to behold. Purgatory is necessary to prepare us and properly cleanse us for meeting God.
     
  19. Elnaam

    Elnaam Member

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    As what you see from their CCC that they contradict themselfs.
     
  20. Elnaam

    Elnaam Member

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    This is what the CCC states: He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31 .] "
    "From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come
    In other words a second change at slavation --not in this world BUT the one to come.
     
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