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What is purgatory???

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by gwyyn, May 25, 2002.

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  1. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

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    The answer in itself should be a new topic?


    That way It can develop it into a a discussion that would shed lite of the entire subject?




    Richard
     
  2. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    You made the statement - you can start the thread. I have have no issues with the Catholic faith.
     
  3. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

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    trento,

    you are amazing, the verses you've quoted are a big zero on purgatory.

    which one of these scriptures imply the existence of purgatory?

    Deut 34
    8 And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.


    Num 20
    29 And when all the congregation saw that Aaron was dead, they mourned for Aaron thirty days, even all the house of Israel.


    2 Tim 4
    9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:

    2 Tim 1
    16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
    17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
    18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.


    What an imagination, one must have to develop this implication of the existence of purgatory!

    Are you able to draw this teaching out of these verses?


    Would you ,please?


    As for praying for the dead?


    The God of the Bible is the God of the LIVING.

    Mk 12
    24..... Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
    27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err .







    Respectfully,

    RICHARD
     
  4. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    Richard -

    Did you even take the time to read the information I posted? It answered every issue any non-Catholic could have with Purgatory. I take the time to read your posts before responding - maybe you could afford the Catholics the same courtesy?
     
  5. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

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    kc, Are trento also?



    I looked at the bible verses, not one implicate the existence of purgatory.

    The verses I posted are the ones that have no explanation beside them they are just lumped in their making a general statement,

    This why I ask you for an explanation, maybe it my blindness, please help.



    Richard
     
  6. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    Huh? KC Catholic IS KC Catholic. Trento is someone else.

    Here is what I posted earlier:

    From Catholic Answers

    http://www.catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp

    Purgatory
    The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

    The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.



    Two Judgments

    When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

    Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment." It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).



    Money, Money, Money

    One argument anti-Catholics often use to attack purgatory is the idea that the Catholic Church makes money from promulgating the doctrine. Without purgatory, the claim asserts, the Church would go broke. Any number of anti-Catholic books claim the Church owes the majority of its wealth to this doctrine. But the numbers just don’t add up.

    When a Catholic requests a memorial Mass for the dead—that is, a Mass said for the benefit of someone in purgatory—it is customary to give the parish priest a stipend, on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar’s offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14). In the United States, a stipend is commonly around five dollars; but the indigent do not have to pay anything. A few people, of course, freely offer more. This money goes to the parish priest, and priests are only allowed to receive one such stipend per day. No one gets rich on five dollars a day, and certainly not the Church, which does not receive the money anyway.

    But look at what happens on a Sunday. There are often hundreds of people at Mass. In a crowded parish, there may be thousands. Many families and individuals deposit five dollars or more into the collection basket; others deposit less. A few give much more. A parish might have four or five or six Masses on a Sunday. The total from the Sunday collections far surpasses the paltry amount received from the memorial Masses.



    A Catholic "Invention"?

    Fundamentalists may be fond of saying the Catholic Church "invented" the doctrine of purgatory to make money, but they have difficulty saying just when. Most professional anti-Catholics—the ones who make their living attacking "Romanism"—seem to place the blame on Pope Gregory the Great, who reigned from A.D. 590–604.

    But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.

    Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it. (See Catholic Answers’ Fathers Know Best tract The Existence of Purgatory for quotations from these and other early Christian sources.)



    Why No Protests?

    Whenever a date is set for the "invention" of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?

    A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?

    They don’t exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that "true believers" in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.

    It is no wonder, then, that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of the belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.

    Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is not contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It proves there can be more than just heaven and hell.

    Sometimes Protestants object that Jesus told the thief on the cross that, on the very day the two of them died, they would be together in paradise (Luke 23:43), which they read as a denial of purgatory. However, the argument backfires and actually supports purgatory by proving the existence of a state other than heaven and hell, since Jesus did not go to heaven on the day he died. Peter tells us that he "went and preached to the spirits in prison" (1 Pet. 3:19), and, after his resurrection, Christ himself declared: "I have not yet ascended to the Father" (John 20:17). Thus at that time paradise was located in some third state besides heaven and besides hell.



    "Purgatory Not in Scripture"

    Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

    Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

    Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

    Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.



    Why Go To Purgatory?

    Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

    Fundamentalists claim, as an article in Jimmy Swaggart’s magazine, The Evangelist, put it, that "Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete. . . . It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man."

    It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.



    No Contradiction

    The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).



    Nothing Unclean


    Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.

    Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."
     
  7. Annabel Lee

    Annabel Lee Beware the Thought Police

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    Since you're not a Catholic ,Lion, why does the concept of Purgatory bother you so much?
    What is your point?
    Please explain your motivation to me, if you can.
    Convince me you are not just playing troll games.
    And, if possible, avoid the sarcasm.
     
  8. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

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    [
    kc sorry, you thru a left curve on me when you posted right behind me using my trento query.

    Yes I did look at your post earlier, the problem with your post is it is written from the catholic perspective to try and prove there is a purgatory, the verses that are used are vague and would not give crednec to any type of a purgatory at all.

    When Augutine is quoted, there is no refernce given.

    Might you know where Augustine siad what he is quoted as saying concenring purgatory?


    Thanks for you answer.




    Richard
     
  9. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    What perspective would you prefer I post from? My former Methodist position?

    There are plenty of former Protestants who have converted to Catholicism because they took the time research the beliefs.

    You pick one issue out of the entire post?!?

    Methinks you are trolling in new waters.
     
  10. Trento

    Trento Senior Veteran

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    Prayers for the dead were upheld by the council of Carthage in 394 A.D.
    This was the same council that 217 Bishops of the Catholic Church confirmed the twenty seven books
    of the NT to be sacred scripture . Why should i blieve them to be Sacred scripture if these men are heretical. No logic at all.
    I humble myself to the like of Fathers Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Lactantius, Eusebius, Cyril, Gregory of Nyssa, Epiphanius, Jerome, Ambrose, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Gregory the Great, Venerable Bede and second-millennium theologians such as Anselm, Bernard, Aquinas and Bonaventure..." To the early Christians whos Prayers for the departed can be read on the walls of the Catacombs and early Church litergies.
     
  11. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

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    QUOTE] ORIGINALLY POSTED BY WOLSELEY
    Tell me, however: if Purgatory was officially invented by Gregory in 593, then how come Tertullian mentions it in his work The Soul (58:1, 208 AD, nearly 400 years before Gregory)? [/QUOTE]


    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/tertullian09.html



    The following is the link to Tertullian’s work The Soul it only has VI Chapters, no reference to “PURGATORY”


    All your REFERENCES are SUSPECT...


    Does He ever post a good source?
     
  12. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

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    trento


    Might you know where Tertullian, Origen, Eusebius, Jerome, Ambrose, Augustine and the others would have quoted that they believed in Purgatory?




    Wolseley, quoted a dead source, is it possible none of these whom you bow before never spoke of such a place, and thats the reason the Catholic Church today says, you just have got to believe it by Faith?

    Maybe?






    Richard
     
  13. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    Again..our references are from reputable sources. They may not agree with "Lions" view of the world - but they are legitimate. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Trento

    Trento Senior Veteran

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    Tertullian, The Soul 58, 8 (Inter 208-212 AD):

    "In short, if we understand that prison of which the Gospel speaks to be Hades, and if we interpret the last farthing to be the light offense which is to be expiated there before the resurrection, no one will doubt that the soul undergoes some punishments in Hades, without prejudice to the fullness of the resurrection, after which recompense will be made through the flesh also."





    Tertullian, The Crown 3, 3-5 (211 AD):

    "The Sacrament of the Eucharist, which the Lord commanded to be taken at meal times and by all, we take even before daybreak in congregations, but from the hand of none others except the presidents...We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries…We take anxious care lest something of our Cup of Bread should fall upon the ground."



    Tertullian, Monogamy 10, 1 (Post 213 AD):

    "A woman, after the death of her husband, is bound not less firmly but even more so, not to marry another husband...Indeed, she prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the Sacrifice."

    To be continued .
     
  15. Annabel Lee

    Annabel Lee Beware the Thought Police

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    is it possible none of these whom you bow before never spoke of such a place

    What do you mean by this statement, LionHeart?
    I bow before my Lord and Saviour. I'm assuming we are all Christian here.
     
  16. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    OK I have read through the arguement over whether or not purgatory is mentioned in the bible. However I do have one question or maybe just a statement. If we die with sin on us, as I'm sure many will cause no one is perfect, does that mean the majority of us will go to Purgatory/Hades??

    just wondering??
     
  17. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    If those sins are not MORTAL/grave but venial sins. And there is a difference between two.

    Mortal sins are those which separate us from God's love i.e.: murder, adultery, stealing, etc. If we do not repent of those sins before we die - we do not die in a state of God's grace.

    Venial sins are those that are not deadly but still tend to harm our relationship with God. Examples of those sins would be angry, selfishness, failing to do God's will when it comes to feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting for the sick and imprisioned, burying the dead - stuff like that.

    All sin is of a selfish nature, but obviously someone who kills someone compared to a different person who neglected their duties to their fellow man are NOT going to be treated the same in the eyes of God.

    So, yes, to answer your question: If we die in a state of grace with God but have venial sins - those will be purged in Purgatory so that we may enter the kingdom without the stain of sin on our souls.

    Hope that helps.
     
  18. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Before you get too excited, Richard, you might want to peruse the link below, which has all 58 chapters of Tertullian's work, not just the first six. ;)

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0310.htm

    The relevant sentence deals with the soul undergoing punishment after death. It is not the classic theological description of Purgatory, but it is an early reference to the concept.
     
  19. jukesk9

    jukesk9 Dixie Whistlin' Papist

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    LionHeart,

    Beating a dead horse here, but....Both the Jewish Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox pray for the dead. Since Christianity is a fulfillment of Judaism, praying for the dead was a practice THOUSANDS of years before Christ. Never once did Christ say, "What you did all those years praying for the dead, okay stop now." Jews, for 11 months after someone dies, prays for the forgiveness of their sins. They did it before Christ and was an established part of the Jewish faith. So, where explicitly does the Bible say don't pray for the dead? Oh yeah, our Christian brothers of the Eastern Orthodox persuasion pray for the dead. It ain't just a Catholic thing.
     
  20. Trento

    Trento Senior Veteran

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    St. Cyprian of Carthage, Letter to His Clergy and to All His People 39 (34), 3 (250 AD):

    "Lawrence and Ignatius, though they fought betimes in worldly camps, were true and spiritual soldiers of God; and while they laid the Devil on his back with their confession of Christ, they merited the palms and crowns of the Lord by their illustrious passion. We always offer sacrifices for them, as you will recall, as often as we celebrate the passions of the martyrs by commemorating their anniversary day."



    St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 23 (Mystagogic 5), 10 (C. 350 AD):

    "Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, Apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep; for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn Sacrifice is laid out."



    St. Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead [Jurgens #1061] (383 AD):

    "After his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice, and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire."



    St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on First Corinthians 41, 5 (C. 392 AD):

    "Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them."



    St. Augustine of Hippo, Confessions Bk. 9 Ch. 2 (400 AD):

    St. Augustine’s mother, St. Monica, on her death-bed said to him: "This one request I make of you, that, wherever you be, you remember me at the Lord’s altar."



    St. Augustine of Hippo, The Care that Should be Taken for the Dead 1, 3 (421 AD):

    "We read in the book of Maccabees that the sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the universal Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at His altar the commendation of the dead has its place."
     
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