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What is purgatory???

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by gwyyn, May 25, 2002.

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  1. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    Simple...just because you are "born again" you are not free to "sin again"! If you do not repent of your sins before you die then those sins are unforgiven. Its very simple.

    Tally-sheet? Your soul keeps tabs on your sins.

    Are you saying that once you are forgiven you are free from the temptation of sin?

    Do you always sacrafice your needs for the needs of others?
    Do you always do God's will?
    Do you always put God first in your life?
    What about feeding the poor? Clothe the naked lately?
    Been angry, jealous or envious of others lately?
    Do you trust in your own abilities before trusting God to assist with your problems?

    See..sin is not just of the 10 commandments. You are still human, flesh of this world and subject to the failings and temptations of sin.

    Peace.
     
  2. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Ben:

    How about 1 John 5: 16-17?
    So, with that passage in mind, do you see the contradiction of your statement:
    Fact One: John is speaking about those already "saved." (He must, for if they were not, ALL SIN would indeed be deadly!)

    Fact Two: The sinner must exist in a state of sin (meaning, the sin is not instantaneously forgiven by the "saved" relationship) because John exhorts them to pray for the sinner, that God may give the sinner life.

    Fact Three: Since there is a perceived gap of time between the commission of the "non-deadly sin" and when the brothers actually observe it and then act upon it, it is possible for the sinner to DIE while in the commission of the sin, and indeed have unforgiven sin upon his soul at the moment of death.

    Also note this is for the commission of OBSERVED sins. Think of how many unobserved sins are committed by everyone in a single day, sins of impure thoughts, of anger, frustration, sins of omission... Certainly taking al those into consideration, it is indeed possible to die with unforgiven sins upon your soul.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  3. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

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    It gets more confusing,

    "God's plan for you is simple. Your loving Father wants to give you all good things--especially eternal life. Jesus died on the cross to save us all from sin and the eternal separation from God that sin causes (CCC 599-623).

    WheN he SAVES (emphases mine), he makes us part of his Body, which is the Church (1Cor 12:27-30). We thus become united with him and with Christians everywhere (on earth, in heaven, in purgatory).


    1 Cor 12
    27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
    28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
    29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
    30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?



    Listen to what the Apostle Paul teaches in;

    1 Cor 15
    1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    At the first council at Jerusalem, the Apostles and elders came together to consider certain questions that had been brought up by religious zealots, saying that christians must obey the law of Moses and be circumsiced; after much debate on the matter ; the next verse is the councils conclusion for the brethern at the church in Antioch.

    Acts 15
    29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

    No observances of Sacraments, not praying to siants, or the dead; just simply trust in GOD.

    Other gospels teach all sorts of diferent observances, in order to eventually be saved; these are all man made in origin, to snare those that just want someone to "tell me what I must do" , instead of seeking the way themselves.


    Paul wrote;

    Gal 1
    6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


    Purgatory is another one of those ASSUMPTIONS.






    RICHARD
     
  4. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Lion Heart:

    Since "Gospel," by definition, are the four chapters of the New Testament which teach the life and ministry of Jesus when He was here on earth, what "gospel" are you referring to which has "man made" observances in it?


    Peace,
    ~VOW
     
  5. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

    +3
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    Good Scriptures :pink:, Julie
     
  6. psycmajor

    psycmajor self-Banned

    +9
    kern

    I think purgatory is to purge your own sins, denying that Christ's grace is sufficient. I think the Catholic church in general is too ritualistic, myself. That's my opinion.

    Sure, there are things that Jesus said that are not written down. Let's take a crude example. Suppose Jesus said (even though it was not written down) that it is okay to have sex with animals. Since it is not in the Bible, it's a possibility, right? You see, I think that that is abuse of scripture, when people add stuff to what the Bible says and then say, "But he could have said it, right?" Stuff is added to the Bible when convenient.
     
  7. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    Well Lion, Julie and psycmajor -

    You are all welcome to your opinions, that's fine. As for me I follow Christ and I am comfortable with my salvation and the church in which I belong.

    Your milage may vary, disagreement does not void other beliefs, see dealer for details.
     
  8. psycmajor

    psycmajor self-Banned

    +9
    I think the reason that SOME people find me offensive is because I was disagreeing with their religion. Another opinion of mine (it's a bit stereotypical) is that some Catholics are conditioned to get defensive whenever they feel like someone is "attacking" their religion. It goes both ways.

    Therefore they try to use their power (I'm speaking of administrators) to try to control me and censor me. Because they can. They make it personal to them. I don't appreciate it.

    It is ABUSE OF POWER.

    Lame.
     
  9. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

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    This is not what the doctrine says. You aren't doing anything on your own, God is purifying you in preparation for you entrance into Heaven. It's not a choice, nor does it depend on you *at all*. Whether you agree with this doctrine or not, I just can't see any way that it can be taken to be working for your own salvation.

    Purgatory is part of Christ's grace.



    I thought bestiality was forbidden in the Bible.

    That's not the way it works. Nobody can just suddenly decide to add something. The Deposit of Faith was ended when the last apostle died. Please read up on what Apostolic Tradition actually is.

    -Chris
     
  10. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

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    I haven't seen you disagree with Catholicism anywhere.

    What I have seen you do is misinterpret the Catholic teachings, and then criticize the misinterpreted teachings, while calling them "catholicism". I think that's what people find offensive -- passing judgment on things you clearly don't understand.

    -Chris
     
  11. psycmajor

    psycmajor self-Banned

    +9
    kern

    If I made A mistake, fine.

    Does that undermine my whole point?

    I DON'T THINK SO!

    Perhaps Catholics only see their faith the way they've been told to. Perhaps the same goes for Protestants. I don't know...

    end of conversation! This is going nowhere.
     
  12. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    Yes, it does.

    I'm still waiting to see an explanation of how Purgatory can be considered working out your own salvation. One that uses the actual doctrine of Purgatory.

    -Chris
     
  13. Trento

    Trento Senior Veteran

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    I Corinthians 3:12-15
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.Please note well, EVERY MAN'S WORK. I know this is a Protestant's nightmare, but this is the Scripture that is the authority is it not? The passage speaks for itself. It is clear and precise. It does not have the word "purgatory" in it. I can give you a clear and precise statement for the Holy Trinity which does not have the word "Trinity" in it, yet one would know perfectly well what it describes. :)
     
  14. UnderdogEnt

    UnderdogEnt Prayer Warrior

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    I see how you could interpret our having to pay for our sins even though we are forgiven as purgatory. I believe that we pay for those sins on earth though, not in purgatory. I believe that by accepting Christ we are instantly saved and cleansed and forgiven of our sins, even though we must pay the consequences here on earth. Of course, it is at this point that the debate starts to lose meaning, as I use Sola Scriptura and the Catholic church does not use the Bible as the only source of faith, and because we have different beliefs about salvation. I believe it is a free gift given as soon as we accept it, and the Catholic doctrine teaches that it is a process. It makes purgatory next to impossible to debate; one of those instances where we agree to disagree.
     
  15. UnderdogEnt

    UnderdogEnt Prayer Warrior

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    In regards to my last post, I still will debate over the interpretation of Scripture, just not over other Catholic doctrine. I believe the deadly sins refer to sins that bring physical death. It says to pray for those who have commited non-deadly sins, meaning that we should pray for those who have sinned and are still alive, and have a chance to repent. It says not to pray for those who have committed deadly sins, ones that bring about death. That is because there is no use praying for people who have died, their faith is sealed.
    This next question is not meant to make a point, I'm just wondering because I have heard different answers: Do Catholics pray for the dead who they believe are in purgatory?
     
  16. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

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    Catholics not only beleive in prugatory, but pray to the DEAD..

    ..Saints for intercession to obtain favors from GOD.



    Respectfully,



    Richard
     
  17. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    What I find offensive and what you were warned of was the "example" you gave above. You were equating Catholic teachings with bizarre sexual behavior.

    Its an insult to your intelligence to lower a conversation to filthy anaolgies to prove your misconceptions of the Catholic faith.

    Not only did you show your lack of intelligent debate but your showed your lack of understanding of Catholic teachings - both of which I find offensive.


    Well...again you have made an assumption rather than knowing the facts. I am a convert, not a cradle Catholic. I chose to convert - and I knew exactly what I was getting into.

    NO ONE was attacking your flavor of religion.

    I don't know you from Adam and if you says something that breaks the rules you better believe I and every other administrator or moderator is going to take you to task despite their religious affliation.

    I warned you in hopes that you would be mature enough to know why you were being warned and be grown up enough to go back and censor your own post. I could have done it myself, but I figured we're all adults here and you would take care of it. Instead you turned it into a public street-fight.

    What's lame is your obvious immaturity, lack of forsight and inability to respect authority - not to mention a complete lack of education regarding the Catholic Church.

    That's lame.
     
  18. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    Could you provide proof of these "claims" Lion?
     
  19. Trento

    Trento Senior Veteran

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    Catholics , Jews and some Protestant denominations pray FOR the dead. Jews don't call it Purgatory they pray the Kaddish.2 Maccabees 12:39-45: This passage is taken from the Apocrypha which is recognized by the Roman Catholic Church and a few Protestant denominations as part of the official canon of scripture. It talks about living persons praying For the dead. One could reason that there is no need to pray for the deceased if they are in Heaven; they have already received their reward. If the deceased is in Hell, then prayer would again be meaningless because they would be beyond help. One might surmise that there must be an intermediate state or location where a person's soul could be helped by the prayer of others.
    Revelation 21:27 states that no impure person will enter heaven. "But nothing unclean shall enter it..." If a person dies with some minor sins still on their record, then they are obviously not pure. Logic would seem to indicate that they must go to some place to be refined until they can attain heaven.
    Other passages include: Psalm 141:8; Daniel 12:10; Micah 7:9; Zechariah 9:11; Matthew 5:26; Matthew 12:32 & 36; Luke 12:47-48; Philippians 2:10; Hebrews 12:22b; James 3:1; 1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:18; 1 Peter 7:37; and Jude 23.
    Passages which discuss "penitent mourning or concern for safe passage of the dead" are: Genesis 50:10; Numbers 20:29; Deuteronomy 34:8; 2 Maccabees 12:44-45; 1 Corinthians 15:29; 2 Timothy 1:16-18; 2 Timothy 4:19. These have been used to imply the existence of Purgatory
     
  20. UnderdogEnt

    UnderdogEnt Prayer Warrior

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    Thanks Trento for answering my question. It's not much of a debate unless I know something about what I'm talking about is it? LOL. Ok, I understand praying for the dead if it talks about that in the Apocrypha, I do know what that is, but I don't believe it to be part of the Bible. Anyway, as far as the burning off of small sins is concerned, I believe that if we have been saved, and did not repent the second before dying that we are still forgiven, because Jesus' blood covers all of our transgressions. Of course, that just leads to another disagreement between the Catholic and Protestant point of view on salvation. This doesn't mean that I don't think that we should pray for forgiveness even after we are saved. In the Lord's Prayer, which Jesus instructed us to pray, we ask for forgiveness. I believe that we still need to ask for forgiveness, but that because we have that forgiveness, we are instantly cleansed at death.
     
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