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What is purgatory???

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by gwyyn, May 25, 2002.

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  1. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

    632
    +0
    Christian
    Ok I have heard about Purgatory, and I don't know nothing about it. Where in the bible does it talk about Purgatory. If anyone has info that could help I'd appreciate it.

    gwyyn
     
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  2. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    The Bible does not directly talk about Purgatory, but there are many verses that Catholics believe speak about the doctrine (although they must be interpreted with the apostolic traditions in mind).

    Purgatory is a temporary place for the saved to go upon death to have their minor (venial) sins burned away in preparation for their entrance into heaven. It is NOT a second chance to accept Christ, it does NOT supercede Christ's sacrifice, etc. By Catholic doctrine if you are not saved then you never see Purgatory. Catholics believe that Purgatory is part of the salvational process which Christ made possible through his sacrifice on the cross.

    -Chris
     
  3. darkwoof

    darkwoof Member

    89
    +4
    Christian
    Single
    Aren't one's sins already forgiven when one is "saved"?? But why is there still more to be 'burned away'?
     
  4. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    Catholic doctrine does not contain a concept of a single instant in which you are "saved". Salvation is a process, not a one-time event. The cleansing of sins works in several ways -- Baptism removes original sin (and if you are baptised as an adult, all sins leading up to there), Confession removes sins during life, and Purgatory removes venial sins that still remain upon death. All made possible by Christ's sacrifice.

    Catholic belief does not include OSAS or anything about forgiveness of "future sins".

    Like Paul, we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

    -Chris
     
  5. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    Purgatory after death is imaginary.

    The real 'purgatory' is the work of the holy Spirit in this life - to make one more like Christ in character.
     
  6. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    To be fair, it is an official teaching of the Church. It's not just based on flight of fancy, it comes mostly from interpretations of scripture based on apostolic tradition (which is also infallible for Catholics, remember). You may not agree with it, but it's not as much of an invention as you make it sound.

    In that it's much like the trinity. You cannot point to a single verse that defines the Trinity completely (including the name), yet that's often what Catholics are called to do for purgatory. Whether something is spelled out in black and white in the Bible is of no importance to Catholic doctrine.

    -Chris
     
  7. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    If you die with the stain of a "non-deadly" sin upon your soul, you must be cleansed of this stain before you can be permitted in the presence of God. God detests sin. The concept of Purgatory is a process to remove this stain. The old Baltimore Catechism made Purgatory sound like a school detention room, where you had to sit quietly for a certain amount of time to "pay" for these sins.

    Truthfully, Purgatory is more like a process, and even Paul talks about a cleansing fire. Once we leave this world, this existence, time, energy, space, everything we know will pass away. We have no concept of how everything will be, so our attempts at trying to explain are very incomplete.

    John discusses the types of sin in 1 John 5:16-17
    Paul discusses the accomplishments of a person, and compares them to temporary things (hay, straw) and permanent things (gold, silver). 1 Corinthians 3: 12-15
    The Catholic Church teaches that the "non-deadly" sins of a person's life are the hay, straw, and wood that Paul speaks of. The gold and silver and precious gems are the efforts we made on behalf of God during our lives. We will be cleansed upon our deaths, with the test of fire, which will burn away the sins and leave us with the pure gold and soliver of our lives, making us worthy to be in the presence of God.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  8. Chili

    Chili Member

    163
    +0
    Purgatory is needed for the redemption of sin. It just is not good enough to be forgiven because our sins must be redeemed and purified lest we die in repentance while at the foot of the cross. This would kind of mean that we must take Jesus from the cross and place ourselves upon it.

    Am I correct in this or am I one step too far? I am thinking here that all is created in sin but since all of creation is good it is our contribution to creation that must be redeemed and our sinful nature must be crucified.
     
  9. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

    632
    +0
    Christian
    Ok I thought once you were saved always saved. This may just be due to the doctrine of the denomination I belong too. (baptist). But I also have another question what is a non deadly sin, and what/who decides the difference. I think I know the answer but not totally sure.
     
  10. UnderdogEnt

    UnderdogEnt Prayer Warrior

    79
    +0
    Purgatory is not a Biblical concept to my knowledge. It is a belief of the Catholic Church, and may have been derived from their interpretation of Scripture, I do not know where it came from. If it did come from an interpretation of the Bible, I would very much like to see what passages.
    As for Purgatory being needed for our salvation, the Bible is very clear about there being nothing we can do on our own for our salvation, that our works are not what win us grace, or else it would not be grace.

    2 Samuel 12:13
    "King David said to Nathan, 'I have sinned against the Lord.' Nathan replied, 'The Lord has taken away your sin.'"

    John 14:6
    "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

    Romans 3:22
    "Righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."

    1 John 1:9
    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

    Titus 3:5
    "He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy."

    There are many more, but I would like to hear more about the beliefs of Purgatory.
     
  11. Chili

    Chili Member

    163
    +0

    How about the difference between the first beast of Rev.14 and the second beast. During the 42 months mentionned here we work our our salvation in fear and trembling and when we are done we will show the marks of the cross, as did the first beast that came out of the sea instead of from the land, etc. The second beast will display the mark of the beast etc.

    How about, if Jesus showed us the way the gospels take place in purgatory between rebirth and ascention.
     
  12. UnderdogEnt

    UnderdogEnt Prayer Warrior

    79
    +0
    >>How about, if Jesus showed us the way the gospels take place in purgatory between rebirth and ascention.<<

    I am confused about what you are talking about. I don't know what verses you are referring to.

    As for the time between the beats, I take the pre-tribulation rapture belief, that that time is during the tribulation, and that before the great judgements of the tribulation, God seals his servants who are alive at the time with the cross so that they will not be afflicted by the judgements.
     
  13. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    It might be best compared to the Trinity -- not explicitly described in the Bible, but alluded to.

    It derived from the usual place, the Deposit of Faith (which includes the Bible).

    First off, let me state two of the Catholic doctrines that cause the biggest disagreements between C&P's (two of the very few disagreements that are not based on misunderstanding of Catholic teachings):
    1. Catholics do not use the Bible as their sole or final authority (although it is definitely part of the authority)
    2. Catholics do not believe in the "free gift" idea of salvation, at least not in the way usually stated by Protestants. There is also no sense of a single instant in which you go from "unsaved" to "saved".

    If you wish to discuss either of these specifically, feel free to start a new thread or search old forum posts for information (searching is recommended since these topics came up several times recently).


    Purgatory is not considered a "work". Purgatory is something that happens to you, not something that you do.

    -Chris
     
  14. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Hey Underdaog,

    Read the next verse of your first passage quoted:

    Note that though there has been Divine forgiveness, there is still a penalty that David must pay.

    The idea of Purgatory stems from Paul's teaching that faith is only the beginning of our walk with Christ, not the sole factor. Paul teaches that if we have faith, but we don't have love, then we have nothing. He says that all that matters is faith working through love, or as James puts it, faith made complete by works. It isn't faith, nor is it works, but our faithfully and humbly following the Will of God, the Way of Christ, that will lead us to Heaven. One cannot claim to be of Christ's flock if they do not follow the Shepard.

    When we step off His path and follow our own, we build our lives on ourselves: on straw. These sins, if not mortal, will not lead to eternal death, but we cannot take them into Heaven, either(1 John 5:15-17). If we have not repented of such sins at our death, we will be purified before our entry into Heaven (1 Cor 3:15). Though we have been forgiven through Christ, there is still a temporal punishment due for these sins, just as David was forgiven, but still had to suffer the loss of his son.

    Not everyone will pass through this purification before entry into Heaven, only those who need it. For those who have asked for forgiveness and turned from sin, Christ will welcome them with open arms without purification. For the rest, I guess Jesus will be wearing oven mitts when He does it ;).

    Peace and Love,

    Neal
     
  15. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    Right. That's what I don't really get about all the Faith vs. Works discussion. Works *are* faith. Think about it. When you help others in Jesus' name, you are professing your belief in him through your works -- you are showing that your faith is such that you are willing to sacrifice your time and your energy to do things for him.

    "Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me." (Matt 25:40). When you do works in Jesus' name, you are not trying to buy your way into heaven, you are saying "Yes, Jesus, I believe what you said, and I am willing to things for the least of your people because I have faith in your words." This is the Catholic teaching of "salvation through faith + works" as I understand it.

    But even so, Purgatory isn't really a work because you're not doing anything; things are being done to you.

    -Chris
     
  16. Chili

    Chili Member

    163
    +0
    If the gospel is interpreted as metaphor all of the gospels take place in purgatory and from the moment of our rebirth until our ascention we as much as write our own gospel. I believe that the words "follow me" are a good indication of this. The opposite of this would be to say that we do not have to pick up our cross and follow the example of Jesus.

    Based on "the reign of God is in your midst" we can be pre- post- or mid- trib depending on our own stage in the journey of life. If we are post trib we will have left purgatory and now enjoy the Thousand Year Reign. If mid- trib we are in purgatory and pre-trib we are not yet born of God. That is a rather simple conclusion I would say.
     
  17. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    :help:
     
  18. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Chili,

    Are you saying the Gospels are purely metaphorical, or did I read into your post?

    Neal
     
  19. Othniel

    Othniel Cup Overflowing

    151
    +0
    The Bible teaches that all sins are deadly, but only one is unforgivable. That sin is the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit, which, in essence, is denying the atoning work of Christ and the Spirit of God within you, effectively calling evil good and forsaking the only atonement for sins mankind is offered.

    Purgatory denies Christ's atonement. The atonement occurs precisely because in Christ's death He took our punishment on Himself. For us to think we could possibly endure a reprisal for ourselves is vein and selfish. It is not the worshipful acceptance of grace God desires of us.

    Why do we keep adding docrines to the Scriptures? Time for a new thread...

    As to Catholic doctrinal statements as an argument of validity...um...well...no churches doctrine should ever be taken as a valid reasoning for Truth, including the denomination I worhship with. Scripture teaches us all we need to know. Our words can explain, but sadly, more often they distort.

    The more we add to the Bible, the less we see it's Truth.

    <><
     
  20. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    A very common statement against Purgatory, but it doesn't make sense. Purgatory is only possible *because* of Christ's atonement, it's *part* of his salvation plan.

    Wow, what a new concept. :rolleyes: It's the Protestants who decided that the Bible alone should be the basis for Christianity, not the Catholics.

    Yes, I'm aware of the Protestant teaching on this matter. It doesn't happen to match with the Catholic belief, though. Now, I should say that Catholic teaching is based on Sacred Tradition, which includes the Bible (the rest of the Tradition is the oral teachings of Jesus and the eleven Disciples). The Catholic position is that nothing in the Catholic doctrine contradicts anything in the Bible. Some of it contradicts Protestant interpretations of the Bible, however, and there are some doctrines that are only alluded to in the Bible but not fully stated (the Trinity, for instance).

    Nothing you are saying in your posts is new. It's all been said and discussed before, multiple times on this message board alone.

    -Chris
     
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