What is OSAS?

[FreeGrace2]

It means that faith with out fruit doesn't save.

Is that what you think 2:18 means???? All you've done is repeat what you think 2:14 says.

Please try again.

 

[AndOne]

Is that what you think 2:18 means???? All you've done is repeat what you think 2:14 says.

Please try again.

Why do you keep asking? I told you what it means. If you don't want it repeated then stop asking and move on. I refuse to separate vs 18 from vs 14 - and I don't believe that is how James intended it to be read.

 

[stan1953]

One cannot demonstrate their faith apart from deeds. It has nothing to do with a "real saving faith" vs a false non-saving faith.

This is Calvinist/RT speak. There is nothing in the NT that speaks of a non-saving faith. You either have faith or you don't. Jesus did NOT say, "Your real saving faith has saved you", He said, "Your FAITH has saved you"! It is not spoken of in any other sense than real.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why do you keep asking? I told you what it means.

No, you didn't. All you did was give your opinion of what 2:14 meant, and imputed it to 2:18. How many more verses in chapter 2 mean the exact same thing as 2:14? All of them?

If you don't want it repeated then stop asking and move on. I refuse to separate vs 18 from vs 14 - and I don't believe that is how James intended it to be read.

The error is that v.18 says something quite different than v.14. They ARE separate. They don't say the same thing. v.18 illustrates what James meant in v.14.

Again, the point of v.18 is that the ONLY way to demonstrate one's faith is by deeds that others can see.

Also, v.15-16 gives an example of a believer who doesn't demonstrate his faith by his failure of deeds when the opportunity arises.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is Calvinist/RT speak. There is nothing in the NT that speaks of a non-saving faith. You either have faith or you don't. Jesus did NOT say, "Your real saving faith has saved you", He said, "Your FAITH has saved you"! It is not spoken of in any other sense than real.

Correct. I'm always amazed by the view of RT regarding James.

For some reason, they always miss the point of 2:26. For a faith to be dead, it must first have been alive. Yet, RT defaults to "false faith", for no apparent reason.

 

[stan1953]

Why in the world do you think that I don't believe that true believers can walk or fall away?? Of course they can. But, where is the support for the notion that they lose salvation?
The problem is that you equate "fall away" with loss of salvation. Which is wrong.

Hence my query. The context of "falling away" is from that salvation, otherwise there is nothing else to FALL AWAY from.

Consider Luke 8:13. Jesus said, "they belived for a while, and in time of testing fell away". He was describing their loss of faith, NOT their loss of salvation. There is NO reason to equate "fall away" with loss of salvation.
Falling away from the faith is to quit believing.

Yes exactly. They believe then fall away from belief, which means they no longer have salvation or the faith needed for salvation. If you accept what Paul teaches in Rom 10:8-13, then belief results in salvation.

But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

​

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hence my query. The context of "falling away" is from that salvation, otherwise there is nothing else to FALL AWAY from.

That's where we disagree. When a believer leaves the faith, they have fallen away from the faith. What do they lose? God's blessings for time and reward in eternity. They lose fellowship, which John emphasized in 1 Jn 1.

Falling away refers only to falling away from the faith or from belief. It cannot refer to salvation. The context does not support that at all. That is simply being read into the text.

Yes exactly. They believe then fall away from belief, which means they no longer have salvation or the faith needed for salvation.[/QUOET]
This is an assumption, not fact. The initial believing results in their salvation. Do you have a passage or verse that teaches that ongoing faith is required for salvation? Or that a temporary belief will not result in salvation? I'd love to see any.

If you accept what Paul teaches in Rom 10:8-13, then belief results in salvation.

Of course it does. Every time. And once saved, God keeps us saved, whether we fall away from the faith or not.

As requested, I find no verses to support the idea that salvation requires ongoing faith. Yes, I'm aware of the present tense, but there are many verses where the aorist tense is used, which removes any concept of time.

So, unless there are verses that clearly spell out that salvation requires ongoing faith, I cannot believe it.

If salvation can be lost, why no verses that actually say that?
If it can be lost, why no verses that say our new birth has died?
If it can be lost, why no verses that remove our justification?
If it can be lost, why all the promises of God to keep us, esp when there are verses in those contexts that limits salvation to ONLY those who keep believing?

 

[AndOne]

No, you didn't. All you did was give your opinion of what 2:14 meant, and imputed it to 2:18. How many more verses in chapter 2 mean the exact same thing as 2:14? All of them?

No - it wasn't an opinion at all. Vs 14 is pretty specific

The error is that v.18 says something quite different than v.14. They ARE separate. They don't say the same thing. v.18 illustrates what James meant in v.14.

error? Hardly. Those verses compliment each other - demonstrating fruitless faith doesn't save. I think your view is a deadly one to have.

Again, the point of v.18 is that the ONLY way to demonstrate one's faith is by deeds that others can see.

Also, v.15-16 gives an example of a believer who doesn't demonstrate his faith by his failure of deeds when the opportunity arises.

It's more than just a demonstration. It is real faith in action. That's the point of the text. Your view crumbles under vs 14.

 

[stan1953]

That's where we disagree. When a believer leaves the faith, they have fallen away from the faith. What do they lose? God's blessings for time and reward in eternity. They lose fellowship, which John emphasized in 1 Jn 1.

Falling away refers only to falling away from the faith or from belief. It cannot refer to salvation. The context does not support that at all. That is simply being read into the text.

I know where we disagree, but the point is that faith saves us so lack of faith is what's causes us to no longer be saved. It's a pretty simple equation. You reap what you sow.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
If you stop believing you don't have salvation.

This is an assumption, not fact. The initial believing results in their salvation. Do you have a passage or verse that teaches that ongoing faith is required for salvation? Or that a temporary belief will not result in salvation? I'd love to see any.

This is what happens when you are prone to being word-centric instead of seeing what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches the Trinity yet NEVER uses the word. The Bible teaches we lose salvation, but does not say it in those exact terms.
Romans 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Fight is all you want, but if you are cut off, you are NOT or no longer saved.

Of course it does. Every time. And once saved, God keeps us saved, whether we fall away from the faith or not.

Which is of course the subject of the OP and which you have NOT corroborated. Denying as much doesn't mean you have.
Hebrews 2:2-3
For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

As requested, I find no verses to support the idea that salvation requires ongoing faith. Yes, I'm aware of the present tense, but there are many verses where the aorist tense is used, which removes any concept of time.
So, unless there are verses that clearly spell out that salvation requires ongoing faith, I cannot believe it.

Well the problem with seeing is have the eyes to see. If you don't really look or don't want to accept what is in plain site then of course you won't see it. It is a proven psychological fact, not just a spiritual one.
Heb 6:12
We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
Obviously Luke is inferring that the opposite also holds true...no faith, no promise.

If salvation can be lost, why no verses that actually say that?
If it can be lost, why no verses that say our new birth has died?
If it can be lost, why no verses that remove our justification?
If it can be lost, why all the promises of God to keep us, esp when there are verses in those contexts that limits salvation to ONLY those who keep believing?

There are, and they have been presented. Acceptance of ANY truth is the responsibility of the hearer, as Jesus said MANY times.
To make a formula of your own to satisfy your requirements to believe is why it's called dogma.
There are many examples in the one chapter of Jude alone that addressed maintaining our faith in lieu of destruction.
God's promises to keep us are for those that worry He will, not for those who walk away. There is a big and distinct difference. It all has to do with the law of sowing and reaping, which is not cancelled by the New Covenant.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No - it wasn't an opinion at all. Vs 14 is pretty specific

Yet, this was my question:
No, you didn't. All you did was give your opinion of what 2:14 meant, and imputed it to 2:18. How many more verses in chapter 2 mean the exact same thing as 2:14? All of them?
Your response didn't answer my question.

error? Hardly. Those verses compliment each other - demonstrating fruitless faith doesn't save. I think your view is a deadly one to have.

v.18 isn't about getting or being saved. It's about HOW a saved one demonstrates their faith to others. With deeds. Very straightforward.

It's more than just a demonstration. It is real faith in action. That's the point of the text. Your view crumbles under vs 14.

No. It's a demonstration of one's "real faith" in action. James' point.

Can you see my faith apart from works? Of course not. Neither can I see your faith apart from works. Again, James' point.

How do you explain v.26 if a "dead faith" equals a false faith? iow, for a faith to be described as dead, means it first had to be alive. While I don't agree with the Arminian answer to that question, Calvinists simply have to ignore the verse, because they can't answer the question.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I know where we disagree, but the point is that faith saves us so lack of faith is what's causes us to no longer be saved. It's a pretty simple equation.

So you believe that your faith saves you. I don't. I believe that God saves the believer. Very different. 1 Cor 1:21 supports my view easily.

You reap what you sow.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Yes, God promises to save those who believe. Where is the verse that takes away salvation if one should stop believing?

If you stop believing you don't have salvation.

Yeah, I know. You think your faith saves you. Or that God ONLY saves those who continue to believe. If that were true, I would expect there to be a number of very clearly stated verses about having to continue in the faith in order to continue to be saved. Yet, there aren't any.

Just as there aren't any verses that teach that Christ died ONLY for some, or that He didn't die for everyone.

This is what happens when you are prone to being word-centric instead of seeing what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches the Trinity yet NEVER uses the word. The Bible teaches we lose salvation, but does not say it in those exact terms.

Wow. The same defense as Calvinists use for limited atonement. Which is why I'm also not one of their ilk.

btw, I'm Word centric.

Romans 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Fight is all you want, but if you are cut off, you are NOT or no longer saved.

Why were the Jews "cut off" in that context? Unbelief. I understand that you view being "cut off" as being unsaved, but I don't. Consider that the Jewish age had been set aside for the Gentiles. If Gentiles fail to live the life of faith for accomplishing God's will in the world, God may set them aside as He did Jews.

I know that this verse sounds as though salvation will be lost (cut off) if faith does not continue. But there is no other parallel passage, and there are other passages that strongly guarantee that God keeps His own.

We can't remove the "spiritual DNA" that God puts in us when He makes us His children. And there is no scripture to suggest that God does either.

Which is of course the subject of the OP and which you have NOT corroborated. Denying as much doesn't mean you have.
Hebrews 2:2-3
For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

The subject of Hebrews is reward, not salvation. I'm fully aware that the word is used in Hebrews, but the promised land does not represent heaven. While God promised it to the Jews, they had to earn it by working hard to conquer it. That is not grace, but works.

An excerpt from The Reign of the Servant Kings, by Joseph Dillow:
"The concept and meaning of salvation in the SCritures is multi-dimentional. For example,when we look at savlation with respect to deliverance from sin, there is a passt aspect - justification, deliveraance from the penalty of sin, and a present aspect - sanctification, deliverance from the power of sin, and a future aspect - glorification, deliverance from the presence of sin. There are many works today explaining in great detail the doctrine of justifrication salvation. There are a lesser number of works seeking satisfactory explanations of the doctrine of sanctification savlation. There aer almost no works in our generation explaining the doctrine of glorification salvation. This area of study has remained a virtual vacuum."

iow, the use of "salvation" in Hebrews is about glorification salvation, or rewards for faithful believers. Both Arminiains and Calvinists misunderstand this. To the Arminian, the believer who isn't faithful loses salvation and does not go to heaven. To the Calvinist, the lack of faithful demonstrates that they were never saved to begin with, and obviously does not go to heaven. Both miss the truth, but for different reasons.

To prove my view, consider Heb 3:18-19-
And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

If one thinks that "entering His rest" equals getting into heaven, then this verse means that even Moses did not enter heaven, because he was prevented from entering the promised land for his 1 sin of rebellion, which the Bible describes as "unbelief", or "unfaithfulness".

The same concept is seen throughout ch 11, the "hall of faith" chapter.

Note these verses: v.13 "they did not receive the things promised"
v.35 "so that they might gain a better resurrection" (eternal rewards from being tortured and refusing to be released).
v.39 "all were commended for their faith, yet NONE of them received what had neen promised".

What wasn't received in this life is eternal rewards. They didn't get them in this life, but did in the next.

This is seen in v.16, and 26.

Well the problem with seeing is have the eyes to see. If you don't really look or don't want to accept what is in plain site then of course you won't see it. It is a proven psychological fact, not just a spiritual one.

Calvinists say the same thing about opponents of limited atonement.

There are many examples in the one chapter of Jude alone that addressed maintaining our faith in lieu of destruction.

The meaning of destruction in Jude is divine discipline leading to physical death, which we see in 1 Cor 10 and 11:30, and spoken of by John in 1 Jn 5:16.

God's promises to keep us are for those that worry He will, not for those who walk away.

Worrying has no value whatsoever. God's promises are to those who have believed, even in the aorist tense.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Is not this an over worn debate / discussion??

SEE:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/losing-salvation.8010090/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/you-can-lose-your-salvation-through-apostasy.7785433/

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

Can a Christian Lose His Salvation?

Willful Sin after Salvation and Eternal Security