What is OSAS?

[FreeGrace2]

That's not my point - and nothing in the post you quoted disagrees with what you said. My point is that real faith doesn't result in an apathetic life free of good fruit. Our friend FG seems to think differently.

I believe EXACTLY what Dr Steve posted, which was my point.

Regarding a real faith and apathy, that was exactly James' emphasis. Those who are saved MUST demonstrate their faith so others can see it.

The notion that he was distinguishing a so-called true faith from a so-called false faith is, well, just false.

 

[FreeGrace2]

OSAS is ONCE saved, ALWAYS saved. Some call it eternal security. How do you reconcile OSAS with this POV? I agree with your view of Luke 8:13

Glad you agree with my view of Luke 8:13. Not sure what you are asking about reconciling OSAS. Could you be more specific, please?

Sorry I don't see OSAS here except in an eisegetical manner. God even loves those that go to hell and these scenarios do not have to do with OUR choice to walk away or fall into apostasy.

First, Paul is addressing Rom 8:34-39 to believers, and the text is clear that nothing can separate us (believers) from God's love. And nothing in the present or future will change that.

The context is about forces OUTSIDE of ourselves.

I must disagree. There sure are some forces outside of ourselves, but "things present and things future" aren't "forces outside of ourselves". Those specifically speak about anything in the present or future, which cannot separate us from God's love.

It says nothing about our free will choices, and would be contradictory to passages in Hebrews 6 and 10 that show people do fall/shrink back.

Yes, believers do fall back. But not from God's hand of salvation (Jn 10).

The Bible is NOT contradictory so you have to find the proper context here in Romans 8.

What I posted isn't contradictory to Scripture.

1 Thess 5 is about the day of Jesus' return. Verses 1-11 is a metaphorical analogy of that day. Paul dealt with the status of dead/sleeping believers already in chapter 4. It's not about life STYLE, it is about life STATUS/PURPOSE. Some believers obviously will be alive when Jesus returns, and some will be dead or as the Bible likes to euphemistically refer to them as 'sleeping'.

Sorry, but I disagree. Paul notes the lifestyle of unbelievers and equates that with being asleep, as opposed to being alert.
1 Thess 5:3-10
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Note these phrases:
"let us (believers) not sleep as others (unbelievers) do"

"sleep at night, get drunk at night" refers to lifestyle

"let us (believers) be sober, put on the breastplate…helmet" reference to lifestyle.

"whether we (believers) awake or asleep" means regardless of lifestyle

"we (believers) will live together with Him" is a guarantee that all believers will live together with Christ.

 

[AndOne]

What does your sentence mean? It doesn't make sense. Typo, maybe?

can faith - which has not been demonstrated - justify someone?

Because without demonstrating one's faith, no one else can see it, and such faith that has no deeds is barren, dead, unfruitful.

how do you know that such faith is real?

Let me ask you this: How can anyone call a faith "dead" if it first wasn't alive?

Yes - but how do you know he isn't using "dead" to be descriptive of a faith that isn't real or is false? It could be being used in that context - in fact the entire text indicates that is the case.

Relative to what, exactly? What is my bold assertion?

Correct me if I am wrong here - but you seem to be promoting the idea that it is possible to have "dead faith" and still be saved. I find that to be a bold assertion.

 

[Sunshine Locket]

The Presbyterian Confession of Faith states: “They whom God hath accepted in his beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.” In other words, this theory teaches that a child of God cannot so sin as to fall from the grace of God and be lost in eternity. Sometimes referred to as “once in grace, always in grace” or “once saved, always saved,” this doctrine was formulated as a result of Calvinism’s “Predestination.” If God elected certain individuals to be saved, His will cannot be overturned or upset by any man (not even the elected); hence, these people must be saved and can do nothing to change the situation.

I would like scripture from ALL, to either refute or support this statement. Please show in your title if you are PRO (accept this statement) or CON (reject this statement)
Can we please try to keep this civil.

John 10:27-29

 

[AndOne]

I believe EXACTLY what Dr Steve posted, which was my point.

Regarding a real faith and apathy, that was exactly James' emphasis. Those who are saved MUST demonstrate their faith so others can see it.

The notion that he was distinguishing a so-called true faith from a so-called false faith is, well, just false.

So maybe we agree on this. Are you saying that those who do not demonstrate faith aren't saved?

 

[stan1953]

Glad you agree with my view of Luke 8:13. Not sure what you are asking about reconciling OSAS. Could you be more specific, please?

Because OSAS is not "believed for a while", and for those that do not fall away it is a promise WITH certainty or guarantee but not as the acronym conveys. Calvin also thought infant baptism was OSAS, which of course it is not.

First, Paul is addressing Rom 8:34-39 to believers, and the text is clear that nothing can separate us (believers) from God's love. And nothing in the present or future will change that.

Yes it is, and the context is external forces separating us when we don't want to, NOT our choosing to walk away.

I must disagree. There sure are some forces outside of ourselves, but "things present and things future" aren't "forces outside of ourselves". Those specifically speak about anything in the present or future, which cannot separate us from God's love.

Yes, THINGS, not OUR WILL. V31 starts with the question and moves from there. The context of verses 32-35 is pretty clear...WHO?
v39; "...nor any other created thing...". Paul was trying to comfort those who were concerned about the conflict of our sin nature he was teaching about in Rom 7.

Yes, believers do fall back. But not from God's hand of salvation (Jn 10).

and away, as Luke teaches in Heb 6 and 10. John 10 says a lot so please be a little more specific. Sheep only stay safe and won't perish if they remain in the pen, and Jesus does show they are free to go in and out. It's a parable I know but taking it to far any way misses the point Jesus is making, which is NOT OSAS.

What I posted isn't contradictory to Scripture.

It does if you force your POV onto the text of Rom 8.

Sorry, but I disagree. Paul notes the lifestyle of unbelievers and equates that with being asleep, as opposed to being alert.
1 Thess 5:3-10
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
Note these phrases:
"let us (believers) not sleep as others (unbelievers) do"
"sleep at night, get drunk at night" refers to lifestyle
"let us (believers) be sober, put on the breastplate…helmet" reference to lifestyle.
"whether we (believers) awake or asleep" means regardless of lifestyle
"we (believers) will live together with Him" is a guarantee that all believers will live together with Christ.

Yes , and as I said it is an analogy of life and the status thereof. It show believers who are ready and unbelievers who are not. That is their status, not lifestyle. Our status is either ready, or NOT ready. The comparisons are analogous of being ready or not ready. Pretty much like the parable of the 10 virgins. V10 goes back to the actual state of believers being alive or dead when Jesus returns. Unbelievers will not live with Jesus so this does not refer to those in verses 6 & 7.

 

[FreeGrace2]

can faith - which has not been demonstrated - justify someone?

Absolutely. God does not have to see one's faith demonstrated before He saves them. Man, otoh, needs to see one's faith before the professing believer will be justified in the eyes of others.

how do you know that such faith is real?

Whatever people believe in is real to them. Not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to make a point about real vs false faith? Good luck with that. The Bible makes no such point.

Saving faith (faith that saves) is believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (jn 20:31), who gives eternal life to all who believe in Him for it (Jn 6:40,47, 11:25-27).

Anything else that people believe isn't saving faith. Anything ELSE that people think is saving faith is a false faith. And it doesn't save.

Yes - but how do you know he isn't using "dead" to be descriptive of a faith that isn't real or is false?

Because of 2:26. A faith that is dead had to first be alive. When you die, can we consider your corpse to be fake or false??

Correct me if I am wrong here - but you seem to be promoting the idea that it is possible to have "dead faith" and still be saved. I find that to be a bold assertion.

When one isn't demonstrating their faith, James calls that faith "dead", or barren. Look up the Greek word for "dead". James used both 'necros' and argon' for "dead".

 

[FreeGrace2]

So maybe we agree on this. Are you saying that those who do not demonstrate faith aren't saved?

Nope. I'm saying that those believers who aren't demonstrating their faith are unproductive or barren (argon). No one else can see their faith.

Believers are supposed to demonstrate their faith, otherwise "no one will see the Lord".

 

[stan1953]

John 10:27-29

Yes this is normal scripture used, but as it only refers to sheep in a pen who can wander off, how does it support the OP?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Because OSAS is not "believed for a while", and for those that do not fall away it is a promise WITH certainty or guarantee but not as the acronym conveys. Calvin also thought infant baptism was OSAS, which of course it is not.

Jesus used the aorist tense of "believe" in Luke 8:12, and the present tense of "believe" in v.13, yet He added "for a while" after it.

Yes it is, and the context is external forces separating us when we don't want to, NOT our choosing to walk away.

I disagree.

Yes, THINGS, not OUR WILL. V31 starts with the question and moves from there. The context of verses 32-35 is pretty clear...WHO?
v39; "...nor any other created thing...". Paul was trying to comfort those who were concerned about the conflict of our sin nature he was teaching about in Rom 7.

Neither the present nor future can or will separate believers from the love of God. That covers a lot of ground.

 

[stan1953]

Jesus used the aorist tense of "believe" in Luke 8:12, and the present tense of "believe" in v.13, yet He added "for a while" after it.

I already said I agree with you on Luke 8:13?

I disagree.

Not the first and you won't be the last.

Neither the present nor future can or will separate believers from the love of God. That covers a lot of ground.

Yes but NOT our will. To God our will is sacrosanct in that it is what motivate us to believe and obey, for the same reasons He made Adam and Eve.

 

[AndOne]

Absolutely. God does not have to see one's faith demonstrated before He saves them. Man, otoh, needs to see one's faith before the professing believer will be justified in the eyes of others.

This is not the issue I'm disagreeing with you on.

Whatever people believe in is real to them. Not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to make a point about real vs false faith? Good luck with that. The Bible makes no such point.

Saving faith (faith that saves) is believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (jn 20:31), who gives eternal life to all who believe in Him for it (Jn 6:40,47, 11:25-27).

Anything else that people believe isn't saving faith. Anything ELSE that people think is saving faith is a false faith. And it doesn't save.


Because of 2:26. A faith that is dead had to first be alive. When you die, can we consider your corpse to be fake or false??


When one isn't demonstrating their faith, James calls that faith "dead", or barren. Look up the Greek word for "dead". James used both 'necros' and argon' for "dead".

Let's stay focused on what James is talking about. Why would he even bring this up if he is not talking about real faith vs dead faith?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes but NOT our will. To God our will is sacrosanct in that it is what motivate us to believe and obey, for the same reasons He made Adam and Eve.

Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. There is nothing to limit what Paul wrote to conclude that our wills aren't included in the phrase "things present and things to come". He already covered everything else outside of ourselves. It wouldn't be necessary to mention the present and future if that was his point.

Further, consider these verses:

Acts 11:23
Then when he arrived and witnessed the grace of God, he rejoiced and began to encourage them all with resolute heart to remain true to the Lord;

Acts 14:22
strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”

Our wills are involved. Believers are encouraged to continue in the faith and remain true to the Lord. Jesus made that clear in Luke 8:13, which you have acknowledged.

1 Thess 5:10 also applies.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's stay focused on what James is talking about.

I have been. Very focused on what he wrote.

Why would he even bring this up if he is not talking about real faith vs dead faith?

The issue is that he was NOT talking about some so-called false faith.

When a believer demonstrates his faith to others, his faith is vibrant and alive.

But, when a believer behaves like the example of 2:15,16, his faith is dead and barren, not producing fruit.

That is what James was concerned about. Believers demonstrating their faith to others.

2:18 clearly indicates this.

 

[AndOne]

I have been. Very focused on what he wrote.


The issue is that he was NOT talking about some so-called false faith.

When a believer demonstrates his faith to others, his faith is vibrant and alive.

But, when a believer behaves like the example of 2:15,16, his faith is dead and barren, not producing fruit.

That is what James was concerned about. Believers demonstrating their faith to others.

2:18 clearly indicates this.

Why does James ask if such faith can save in vs14 then?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why does James ask if such faith can save in vs14 then?

The best question is being saved from what? It's a huge mistake to default to eternal salvation whenever one encounters the Greek word "sozo". It's basic meaning is deliverance or rescue. The question is what kind of deliverance or rescue did James have in mind.

He used the word 5 times in his epistle; and none of them refer to eternal salvation. Here are the verses. They speak for themselves:

1:21
2:14
4:12
5:15
5:20

Here are 2 more quite obvious verses in which "sozo" cannot refer to eternal salvation:
Acts 27:20,31

 

[stan1953]

Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

and I've provided scriptures that do. If you don't deal with them as such don't expect to have the scriptures you provide dealt with either.
There is no doubt we disagree.

 

[FreeGrace2]

and I've provided scriptures that do. If you don't deal with them as such don't expect to have the scriptures you provide dealt with either.

I did deal with your view of Rom 8:38,39. There is nothing there to preclude our own wills from separating ourselves from the love of God.

 

[stan1953]

I did deal with your view of Rom 8:38,39. There is nothing there to preclude our own wills from separating ourselves from the love of God.

and nothing that indicates otherwise. I did offer Heb 6 and 10 for your perusal, where they clearly show we can and do fall into apostasy.

 

[AndOne]

The best question is being saved from what? It's a huge mistake to default to eternal salvation whenever one encounters the Greek word "sozo". It's basic meaning is deliverance or rescue. The question is what kind of deliverance or rescue did James have in mind.

He used the word 5 times in his epistle; and none of them refer to eternal salvation. Here are the verses. They speak for themselves:

1:21
2:14
4:12
5:15
5:20

Here are 2 more quite obvious verses in which "sozo" cannot refer to eternal salvation:
Acts 27:20,31

Yea - I'm not buying this - sorry. Deliverance and rescue have the same relevance as salvation. Sorry - you are reaching here.