What is "Once Saved Always Saved," anyway?

[Hanani]

i'm sorry outspoken but you are incorrect about the meaning of that verse that is just saying that grace is not resistable wich is true you cannot resist an enabling but you still must use it

 

[Outspoken]

"i'm sorry outspoken but you are incorrect about the meaning of that verse that is just saying that grace is not resistable wich is true you cannot resist an enabling but you still must use it
"

No, that's not what its saying at all. Paul is making a comparison between Israel (who rejected christ) and the church. He then says can Israel reject the promise (Christ) and still be saved. Paul says Yes, and then says because God's gives we cannot repent of and then applies it to the church as well. Its very clear in the passage.

 

[kern]

What did Paul mean when he said he was working out his salvation with fear and trembling?

-Chris

 

[Hanani]

outspoken when cannot get rid of the gift of grace that is all that the verse is trying to say it will always be there no matter how much we screw up but we still must use it

and kern i don't know about that one plz give me the scripture reference so i can see it in context

 

[mellymell]

Outspoken, you're taking that verse out of context. Yes, Paul was speaking of Israel, but He wasn't speaking to the idea of the Gentile salvation. Their salvation is given because of the faithfulness of their father, Abraham. Our salvation, in contast, is by grace through faith, but without works, that faith is absolutely meaningless.

Hebrews 6:4-6 makes it absolutely clear that there are people who have been enlightened and have been partakers of the Holy Spirit. These were who definitely were saved and not just religious. Yet, the Bible says in verse 6 that it's impossible to renew them again unto repentance, meaning that they have lost their salvation if they fall away from the faith.

If we are saved by faith, then it'll take faith to keep salvation. You see, works don't justify our salvation, but they do justify our faith. Check out James 2:24, 26 - "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only... For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

This can't be any clearer... and looked at in conjunction with Heb. 6:4-6, it's clear that we must continue in the faith. Now, granted... it's not easy to lose your salvation, but you can lose it. Not because God's grace is insufficient, but because we walk out on Him.

And there was a rebuttal to my first post as to why the people in Matt. weren't considered saved... But, I explained in my post how they WERE saved. The Bible says that certain signs would follow them that BELIEVE. If these signs weren't exclusive to believers, they wouldn't serve as SIGNS. Yet, these people Jesus dismissed from His presence actually exhibited these signs which were said to accompany only BELIEVERS. They cast out demons and healed the sick IN HIS NAME. A simple religious person can't exercise the power of His name without personal relationship. But, what happeded was that eventually, these people stopped living holy and their sinful lives separated them from God so that He no longer knew them. He once did, but their sins separated them. There are plenty of scriptures that show forth that sin separates us from God (from His love, NO... but from His presence, YES).

 

[Ioustinos]

Shimon,


In reply to your post #38 you read and replied to an old post The newest post addressed to you was #28.

 

[Ioustinos]

Originally posted by Hanani
i covered this before but again the punishment for sin is death if we do not ask for forgiveness we are justified

I believe you made an error in your typing or did you mean it when you said "if we do not ask for forgiveness we are justified"?

also we are made perfect in Christ but a better translation is that we are
made complete God gives us the grace to resist temptation yet we still fall
but he is there to lift us back up and cover over our mistakes making us complete

But according to you we sin and everytime we sin we need to be saved again, so does there ever a day in your lifetime that you are truly saved? Because if you sin everyday (which we all do) then you are lost everyday.

also you are just backing up my point that grace is not resistable but you must choose to believe and take hold and use it

Please refer me to where I am supporting that one can lose their salvation.


Be well

 

[Julie]

Originally posted by kern
What did Paul mean when he said he was working out his salvation with fear and trembling?

-Chris

Works never have anything to do with keeping ourselved saved, God keeps His own.  Works are to come AFTER salvation.

Sin affects our fellowship with God but not our standing.

Eternal Life and Everlasting life are just that.

 


<P align=justify>"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (I Jn. 5:13)


<P align=justify>". . . . I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." (II Tim. 1:12)




<P align=justify>"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (I Pet. 1:5)


<P align=justify>"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philip. 1:6)


<P align=justify>
&nbsp;

<P align=justify>"I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (Jn. 10:28)


<P align=justify>"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (Jn. 3:16)


<P align=justify>
&nbsp;

<P align=justify>"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (Jn. 5:24)


<P align=justify>"He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (I Jn. 5:12)


<P align=justify>If I sin as a child of God, then my Heavenly Father will rebuke and chasten me , just as any good father would (Rev. 3:10; Heb. 12:4-8), but He will not condemn me with the world (I Cor. 11:32). God has promised His children ETERNAL SECURITY.

 

[Ioustinos]

Kern,

Originally posted by kern
Not when you sin, only when you reject God.

So how does one lose their salvation? I thought that if one sinned then they lost their salvation? But you say it is when they reject God; so how do you reject God?

Yes, but there's more to the Bible than Romans 8 and 9. What was the point of Jesus' teachings if all we need is Paul's letters?

I would but then the conversation would eventually turn into Election vs. Free Will and I don't want to "hijack" the thread. Because we would discuss why one comes to faith in Jesus Christ and how they remain in that faith.

 

[Ioustinos]

Originally posted by Hanani
romans just proves my view point on grace supporting my whole aspect on osas and if you sin you are rejecting God because you are straying from the path that he created for you with his sacrafice your saying that you know whats good for you better than God who knows everything does

Could you show us how Romans 8 supports that one can lose their salvation?

 

[Hanani]

I believe you made an error in your typing or did you mean it when you said "if we do not ask for forgiveness we are justified"?


yes that was a typing error very sorry i was getting realy tired


and romans supports my point of view by saying that everyone has grace and that that can't be taken and will not be taken away

but the simple definition of grace is an enabling and you must use and enabling for it to help you in anyway so if you are not constantly using it your throwing it away

and everytime we sin we do need to be saved again it is plain and clear that the punishment for sin is death and that for every sin we commit we should ask forgiveness whenever i sin i ask forgiveness as soon as i realize what i've done

btw great post mellymell

jesaiah
i have a question to pose for you you already know how easy it is to be forgiven all you need do is ask forgiveness and turn from your ways and it will be given to you. therefore why do you need osas? i can only think of a couple reasons eather you don't believe forgiveness is affective,that would be bad. or your trying to justify sinning.

 

[Ioustinos]

Originally posted by Hanani
and romans supports my point of view by saying that everyone has grace and that that can't be taken and will not be taken away

Could you refer me to the specific verses in Romans 8 that state that support losing salvation?

jesaiah
i have a question to pose for you you already know how easy it is to be forgiven all you need do is ask forgiveness and turn from your ways and it will be given to you. therefore why do you need osas? i can only think of a couple reasons eather you don't believe forgiveness is affective,that would be bad. or your trying to justify sinning.

I believe that scripture tells us that once we are saved we cannot lose our salvation for we did nothing to earn it so we cannot lose it. I believe forgivenvess is effective; I asked Christ to forgive me of my sin and he did past, present, and future. I am not trying to justify sinning becuase we read that if we say we do not sin then we call God a liar. Because I believe in OSAS does not mean that I go about sinning, that issue is discussed in Romans 6. Only those who have true faith in Him follow His word. This would be called perseverence of the saints. But I do not want to get into that type of discussion in this thread because it would be under the topic of Election vs. Free will.

When Jesus Saved me from my sin it was all my sin and not some.

 

[Hanani]

if you do not ask forgiveness for your sin you will suffer the punishment and if your asking forgiveness for future sin thats like telling someone your sorry your about to steal there car and your justifying it because Jesus will forgive you if that doesn't seem wrong to you i don't know why

it supports losing salvation because it supports the fact that everyone recieved Grace wich is an enabling and that they cannot loose it

therefore they must use it if they do not then they do not have faith and have not accepted grace or have turned from the truth

even satan acknowledges God

 

[Miss Shelby]

Originally posted by Jesaiah
Could you refer me to the specific verses in Romans 8 that state that support losing salvation?&nbsp;

Romans 11:17-22 - And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. <B>Do not be haughty, but fear</B>. For if God did not spare the natural branches, <B>He may not spare you either</B>. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, <B>if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.</B> "

Oh sorry, guess that wasn't in 8.

 

[Miss Shelby]

They cast out demons and healed the sick IN HIS NAME. A simple religious person can't exercise the power of His name without personal relationship. But, what happeded was that eventually, these people stopped living holy and their sinful lives separated them from God so that He no longer knew them. He once did, but their sins separated them. There are plenty of scriptures that show forth that sin separates us from God (from His love, NO... but from His presence, YES).

mellymell:

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. You have no idea how many times I have pointed out this very thing during these debates to no avail.

Michelle

 

[Ioustinos]

Originally posted by Hanani
if you do not ask forgiveness for your sin you will suffer the punishment and if your asking forgiveness for future sin thats like telling someone your sorry your about to steal there car and your justifying it because Jesus will forgive you if that doesn't seem wrong to you i don't know why

Yes when I asked God to forgive me He forgave me of all my sins, not some. What would happen if you had lived for Christ all your life, yet you had sinned right before you died and didn't have time to confess it? Would you go to hell? If not why?

it supports losing salvation because it supports the fact that everyone recieved Grace wich is an enabling and that they cannot loose it

You are killing me man!! Could you refer me to specific verses in Romans 8? Like verse 12 says.... Show me where you believe Romans 8 supports the idea that one can lose their salvation. Please do not give the same general response. You have said that at least two times and each time I have asked for specific verses. Help a brother out

 

[Hanani]

you do not ask forgiveness for sins you are going to commit in the future! thats like saying God you cannot possibley sustain me and i will fall

it is possible that you will never sin after you accept Jesus i will never say that it's probable but it is possible and thats what you should strive for and when you fall not before you should ask forgiveness immidiatly as for living a christian life and dieng before they could repent that doesn't make sence they would repent immiediatly as soon as the realized there sin if they did not realize there sin they were blinded and since i am not the judge i will not say they did not go into heaven but i will say i have seen no scripture supporting the idea of sin being taken away without repentance


many verses in there seem to support my view but i'll go with 9 because i know there are times when i'm not christlike and i must and do ask forgiveness for them because they seperate me from God and thats the last thing i ever want so i ask Jesus to cover my mistakes with his blood and he does with a love that can only be known by knowing him

 

[Ioustinos]

Miss Shelby,

Originally posted by Miss Shelby
mellymell:

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. You have no idea how many times I have pointed out this very thing during these debates to no avail.

Michelle

I would like to quote a commentaries concerning the issue that you and melly mel brought up (sorry if they are long):

Mat 7:21 -
Not every one that saith ... - The Saviour goes on to say that many, on the ground of a mere profession such as he had just referred to, would claim admittance into his kingdom. Many would plead that they had done miracles, and preached or prophesied much, and on the ground of that would demand an entrance into heaven. The power of working miracles had no necessary connection with piety. God may as well, if he chooses, give the power of raising the dead to a wicked man, as the skill of healing to a wicked physician. A miracle is a display “of his own power” through the medium of another. An act of healing the sick is also a display of “his power” through the agency of another. In neither of these cases is there any necessary connection with moral character. So of preaching or prophesying. God may use the agency of a man of talents, though not pious, to carry forward His purposes. Saving power on the mind is the work of God, and he may convey it by any agency which he chooses. Accordingly, many may be found in the day of judgment who may have been endowed with powers of prophecy or miracle, as Balaam or the magicians of Egypt; in the same way as many people of distinguished talents may be found, yet destitute of piety, and who will be shut out of his kingdom.--Adam Barnes

Verses 21-29 We have here the conclusion of this long and excellent sermon, the scope of which is to show the indispensable necessity of obedience to the commands of Christ; this is designed to clench the nail, that it might fix in a sure place: he speaks this to his disciples, that sat at his feet whenever he preached, and followed him wherever he went. Had he sought his own praise among men, he would have said, that was enough; but the religion he came to establish is in power, not in word only (1 Co. 4:20), and therefore something more is necessary. I. He shows, by a plain remonstrance, that an outward profession of religion, however remarkable, will not bring us to heaven, unless there be a correspondent conversation, v. 21–23. All judgment is committed to our Lord Jesus; the keys are put into his hand; he has power to prescribe new terms of life and death, and to judge men according to them: now this is a solemn declaration pursuant to that power. Observe here, 1. Christ’s law laid down, v. 21. Not every one that saith, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, into the kingdom of grace and glory. It is an answer to that question, Ps. 15:1. Who shall sojourn in thy tabernacle? —the church militant; and who shall dwell in thy holy hill? —the church triumphant. Christ here shows, (1.) That it will not suffice to say, Lord, Lord; in word and tongue to own Christ for our Master, and to make addresses to him, and professions of him accordingly: in prayer to God, in discourse with men, we must call Christ, Lord, Lord; we say well, for so he is (Jn. 13:13); but can we imagine that this is enough to bring us to heaven, that such a piece of formality as this should be so recompensed, or that he who knows and requires the heart should be so put off with shows for substance? Compliments among men are pieces of civility that are returned with compliments, but they are never paid as real services; and can they then be of an account with Christ? There may be a seeming importunity in prayer, Lord, Lord: but if inward im pressions be not answerable to outward ex pressions, we are but as sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal. This is not to take us off from saying, Lord, Lord; from praying, and being earnest in prayer, from professing Christ’s name, and being bold in professing it, but from resting in these, in the form of godliness, without the power. (2.) That it is necessary to our happiness that we do the will of Christ, which is indeed the will of his Father in heaven. The will of God, as Christ’s Father, is his will in the gospel, for there he is made known, as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ: and in him our Father. Now this is his will, that we believe in Christ, that we repent of sin, that we live a holy life, that we love one another. This is his will, even our sanctification. If we comply not with the will of God, we mock Christ in calling him Lord, as those did who put on him a gorgeous robe, and said, Hail, King of the Jews. Saying and doing are two things, often parted in conversation of men: he that said, I go, sir, stirred never a step (ch. 21:30); but these two things God has joined in his command, and let no man that puts them asunder think to enter into the kingdom of heaven. 2. The hypocrite’s plea against the strictness of this law, offering other things in lieu of obedience, v. 22. The plea is supposed to be in that day, that great day, when every man shall appear in his own colours; when the secrets of all hearts shall be manifest, and among the rest, the secret pretences with which sinners now support their vain hopes. Christ knows the strength of their cause, and it is but weakness; what they now harbour in their bosoms, they will then produce in arrest of judgment to stay the doom, but is will be in vain. They put in their plea with great importunity, Lord, Lord; and with great confidence, appealing to Christ concerning it; Lord, does thou not know, (1.) That we have prophesied in thy name? Yes, it may be so; Balaam and Caiaphas were overruled to prophesy, and Saul was against his will among the prophets, yet that did not save them. These prophesied in his name, but he did not send them; they only made use of his name to serve a turn. Note, A man may be a preacher, may have gifts for the ministry, and an external call to it, and perhaps some success in it, and yet be a wicked man; may help others to heaven, and yet come short himself. (2.) That in thy name we have cast out devils? That may be too; Judas cast out devils, and yet was a son of perdition. Origen says, that in his time so prevalent was the name of Christ to cast out devils, that sometimes it availed when named by wicked Christians. A man might cast devils out of others, and yet have a devil, nay, be a devil himself. (3.) That in thy name we have done many wonderful works. There may be a faith of miracles, where there is no justifying faith; none of that faith which works by love and obedience. Gifts of tongues and healing would recommend men to the world, but it is real holiness or sanctification that is accepted of God.--Matthew Henry

 

[Hanani]

Jesaiah i don't mind a tangent just don't change the topic of the thread

and plz paraphrase that huge mess of copy paste work cause reading stuff that small hurts my head

 

[Ioustinos]

Originally posted by Hanani
you do not ask forgiveness for sins you are going to commit in the future! thats like saying God you cannot possibley sustain me and i will fall

I disagree. You say that God gives you the grace to be able to refrain from sin, yet you still sin. The same is for me, but I recognized that I was a sinner and that I have sinned and would sin. We all will sin until we enter into Heaven.

it is possible that you will never sin after you accept Jesus

I must say that I REALLY disagree with you. No man can live a sinless life. We still live in the flesh and thus will sin. Even the Apostle Paul spoke of the lifelong struggle in Romans 7.

you should ask forgiveness immidiatly as for living a christian life and dieng before they could repent that doesn't make sence they would repent immiediatly as soon as the realized there sin if they did not realize there sin they were blinded

Have you always confessed your sin right after you committed it? David, who was said to be a man after God's own heart, committed his sin with Uriah's wife and it took him a while to confess and repent of it. He even knew that what he did was sinful. So it does make sense that you could committ a sin and not immediately confess it? So according to your view of soteriology that person would be condemned to hell. Because that did not confess that sin and receive salvation again.

many verses in there seem to support my view but i'll go with 9 because i know there are times when i'm not christlike and i must and do ask forgiveness for them because they seperate me from God and thats the last thing i ever want so i ask Jesus to cover my mistakes with his blood and he does with a love that can only be known by knowing him

Ok we will look at Romans 8:9. In the beginning Paul says "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." Who was Paul speaking to? The Christians in Rome. So Christians have the Spirit of God in them. We find that all Christians have the Holy Spirit living in them: 1st Corinthians 2:12; 3:16; 6:11,19; 12:13; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 1:13,14; 2:18,22; 4:5-6