What is Gods will?
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JesusServant
do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER
I saw them live with 15,000 other people praising the Lord. I can't wait to be at another event like that. It was awesome. We jumped up and down on the devil's playground singing praises to God.
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JesusServant
do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER
At the top of your screen, click on "Non-Denominational/Reformed/Protestant Room" then scroll down until you see "The Christian Hang Out". God bless!
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/35302.html
Or just click on this link
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JesusServant
do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER
BBL guys. Thanks for all the input so far and I look forward to reading more later
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Let me see if I understand what you're saying. I have to "ask God into my heart to stay," "tell Him I'm a sinner," "tell Him that I believe He died on the cross to wash away my sins," "ask Him to make me a new creation," "make sacrifices," and "change my life," did I get it all? Wow! You sure do think you have to do a lot to be saved. That doesn't sound like being saved. That sounds a whole lot like you earned it. What exactly was it that the death of Jesus did for you? It seems like you're saying His death is useless if you don't do all this other stuff. How exactly do you come to the conclusion that salvation is a gift of God's grace (I'm assuming you believe this because you are Christian) if it's based on the merits of all this stuff you "have to do to be saved?" It's sounds more like the wages for doing all the right things rather than unmerited favor, which is what grace is.
God bless
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
I totally agree that with this. Good money management is something that even Christians who are obedient for the most part don't focus on, that is until it's a problem. Then they want to know where God was and why He didn't protect them from being broke.
God bless
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JesusServant
do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER
I somewhat see what you're getting at here Ref. But we have to accept that gift. We can turn our backs on that free gift and deny it and tell God we want no part of it. You made a decision to post here, so obviously you have free will Ref
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Today at 08:40 AM JesusServant said this in Post #87
You made a decision to post here, so obviously you have free will Ref
JS, what is free will to you? Is it just the ability to make choices? If so, then we are being anti-progressive and it will find it's way into every part of our theology. These are huge words with huge meanings. "Free" does not just mean "uncoerced." When you say "free" with regard to your "will" you are saying that your ability to make choices is not determined by anything beyond the nature or being of your decision. That's what "free" means. It's a hugely significant word. The fact that you can choose what clothes to wear and what MB to post on and what to say and how fast to drive on the freeway doesn't in any real sense mean that your "will" is "free." "Free will" is the ability to make ANY AND ALL decisions in a given situation. Do you still think that describes your will?
God bless
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JesusServant
do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER
So God forces some of us to love Him and others He doesn't? I don't see what you're getting at.
We only have so much that we can control and that is our free will. You are taking it a lot deeper and saying that if any outside source whatsoever can sway us then it isn't a free choice, something has effected that decision.
Take our freedom in this country. I'm sure, by your post, you'll agree that we aren't as free as we should be or as free as politicians like to allude to. But we are still more free than any other nation. Religion alone is proof of that. Now I can't go shoot someone and keep my freedom, so I guess I'm not free? Where does it end Ref? We do make decisions and every aspect of our lives is not controlled by other forces or people, wouldn't you agree? Or do you see us as mere puppets for God's pleasure?
We only have so much that we can control and that is our free will. You are taking it a lot deeper and saying that if any outside source whatsoever can sway us then it isn't a free choice, something has effected that decision.
Take our freedom in this country. I'm sure, by your post, you'll agree that we aren't as free as we should be or as free as politicians like to allude to. But we are still more free than any other nation. Religion alone is proof of that. Now I can't go shoot someone and keep my freedom, so I guess I'm not free? Where does it end Ref? We do make decisions and every aspect of our lives is not controlled by other forces or people, wouldn't you agree? Or do you see us as mere puppets for God's pleasure?
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
No. Not at all. Those that love God freely love Him but they freely choose to love Him because they have been given a new nature. God's sovereign introduction of a new nature into His chosen isn't "forcing them to love Him." It's enabling them to love Him.
Okay. I don't know that I'd say there is anything that we "control" but I agree that there are definitely things that we make choices about. What I'm getting at is do you think that the decisions that you do make are made without any influence from anything outside the nature of that decision? For instance, when you go to buy a car you might say you "freely choose" which car to buy, right? Is that choice really free? I'll acknowledge that the decision that you do make is not coerced but to say that it's "free" means that when you go to buy a car nothing influences which car you choose. If something influences it it's not freely made. We are limited by so many things that to say that any decision we make is freely made is just illogical. We are limited by finances, intellect, physical ability, our fallen nature, etc. Acknowledging all that how can any decision you make be "freely" made? How about you give me an example of a decision you have made that was "freely" made, that is, not influenced by anything outside your desire to make that decision.
But that is the truth. "Free" means not influenced by any outside source. If a decision is made based on any outside influence then it is not freely made.
No, I don't see us as puppets but the ability to make a decision doesn't mean that that decision is freely made. "Free" is not a relative word. You are either free to do something or you are not. The example that you note just confirms what I'm saying. Yes, you can, of your own volition, choose to go shoot someone. However, having the ability to go do so and even going and doing it don't necessarily indicate a freedom to do it. God does not even have "free will." He can sovereignly do just about anything. However, even He is limited by His own Word. A difference in the freedom that God enjoys compared to our freedom is the scope of that freedom. You and I are able to make decisions about a limited number of things. Those decisions are definitely influenced by many things. Are you free to decide to jump to the moon? If not then you don't have free will. You only have the ability to make decisions about the things that are within your scope of things to make decisions about. And, even those decisions are influenced by many things. Sorry man, to my knowledge, the Bible never says we are free. In fact, the Bible plainly states that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to God.
Again, give me an example of a "freely made" choice and let's figure out if it was influenced by anything outside of your desire to make that decision.
God bless
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JesusServant
do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER
Okay Ref, you're completely taking what I mean by freewill and blowing it up into something much more complicated. I never thought I'd meet someone that thinks too much like I do, but tag, you're it!
I have given over my will to God's will. I don't want control of my own life, I want God to direct my steps because decisions I make are terrible. God has placed His word here for us to go by and make those decisions, but when I give over my will to God and ask Him to run my life, then does He? Or can I still choose? What about when I change my mind? Was that because I'm a robot and God changed it or because I decided against an earlier decision? We could go on and on.
The Bible never shows God saying, "oh you poor slaves, I have pity on you because you are enslaved." to the Hebrews, instead God moves and leads them out of captivity, yet when they go against God they go back into captivity throughout the OT. Maybe this is symbolic of how God works in our individual lives as well. Like you said, either we submit to God or submit to 'the world'. Either way we're not free and never will be. I know I don't ever want to make a decision that would go against God and the only way that is possible is if God leads because my flesh interferes with what my spirit/heart wants to do.
I have given over my will to God's will. I don't want control of my own life, I want God to direct my steps because decisions I make are terrible. God has placed His word here for us to go by and make those decisions, but when I give over my will to God and ask Him to run my life, then does He? Or can I still choose? What about when I change my mind? Was that because I'm a robot and God changed it or because I decided against an earlier decision? We could go on and on.
The Bible never shows God saying, "oh you poor slaves, I have pity on you because you are enslaved." to the Hebrews, instead God moves and leads them out of captivity, yet when they go against God they go back into captivity throughout the OT. Maybe this is symbolic of how God works in our individual lives as well. Like you said, either we submit to God or submit to 'the world'. Either way we're not free and never will be. I know I don't ever want to make a decision that would go against God and the only way that is possible is if God leads because my flesh interferes with what my spirit/heart wants to do.
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Let me reiterate. Being able to make decisions doesn't make your will free. Let me ask you a question. Is there any decision that you can make that is not influenced by at least one of the following: your fallen nature, your love for God, your physical ability, your intellectual capacity, or your finances? If not, then the mere fact that you can make a decision doesn't make whatever decision you do make uninfluenced by anything outside itself and therefore, is not "free." Uncoerced maybe, but not free. Think about when you were first saved. If you were like most people who were saved later in life you were probably "on fire to serve the Lord" and didn't know hardly anything about doing it, right? Now, just becuase you are saved, does that mean that your old man (habitual ways of dealing with things, ingrained sinful responses to temptation, etc) were immediately gone? Of course not. So, let's say you get up one morning and pick out some clothes. Now, no one was in your ear forcing you to pick one particular outfit over another, right? Does that mean that you freely made the choice? Could you possibly have been limited or influenced in your decision as to what to wear? How about by what was clean? You own vain notions as to what would look best on you? Whether you had a meeting that day and had to dress in a tie? If anything like this influenced the decision that you made then it wasn't "freely" made. Yes, you are the one who made the decision and no one forced you. But there are considerations for every single decision we make, except maybe reflex.
I'm not trying to get to deep in this but this deeply affects people's view on man's "free" ability to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Savior while still fallen and depraved. It just isn't a possibility. Man, in his fallen state, is not free to "come to God." God is fallen man's enemy. The Bible is very clear on that. If we don't acknowledge mankind's inability to freely come to Christ then how can we ever truly appreciate the magnificence of our salvation? If we weren't unable to alter our situation then the most we can credit God with is rewarding us for making the right decision.
God bless,
Don
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JesusServant
do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER
Well, I don't see it (and Scripture backs this up) that we come to God. God comes to us. We cannot reach God, but God can reach us. However, God will not force this on us. What would be the point of all this if God forced us to love Him (which I know you've said He doesn't) but you said we're incapable of loving God until He makes us capable. It's almost like you're comparing people to computers and God is our programmer. Of course things influence our decisions but it still doesn't mean the freedom to make those decisions was forced. I see where you're separating the word "free" from the word "coerced," I understand that. We're going to get into things that are waaaay off topic and I'd love for us to discuss this further, I just don't have time right now. We're going to start getting into things like, where does the logical mind and Spirit separate, etc. I can see we're going to have some awesome discussions in the future though Ref.
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Oh yes and I am a christian, and no I consider it an HONOR to do those things. And yes I think that you would still be saved if you didn't do those things, but once you get saved, you have a want to do that. Atleast I do. I think that the more I can do for Jesus, and the more people I can tell about Him, the better. Jesus said for us to be as servant to Him. and I try my best to be.
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
The thing, I think, that's confusing me about your position is that you're saying exactly what I am at one point, "we don't come to God, He comes to us, we cannot reach God, God reaches us" but then you seem to disagree that "we are incapable of loving God until He makes us capable." Either we are capable of loving God in our fallen state, despite the overwhelming evidence that fallen man does not love God, and therefore we can "come to Him," or, we are incapable of loving God in our fallen state and therefore He must come to us and make us capable of loving Him. Simply, either He makes it happen or we do. He and us are the only two parties involved. It can't be another way. And, we can't say "man can't come to God but he is able to love God without God making him capable of loving God." It just doesn't make any sense. Either we were fallen and depraved and helpless to change that or we were, as is the Catholic opinion, merely wounded but still maintain some risidual ability to acknowledge God as Lord even in our fallen state.
I think you acknowledged that I'm not saying this but let me reiterate that a decision not being "forced" does not necessarily make it "freely made." If we look at the decisions we make everyday and say they are freely made then where, as you asked, does it end? Can fallen man freely make the choice to turn his life around and acknowledge God as Lord or is there some impediment that must be overcome by God's sovereign interaction? Does God save us because we make the right decision to live our lives according to His Word or do we decide to live our lives according to His Word because He saved us? I think if we consider the biblical truth about the nature of fallen man and his motives for everything he does the concept of fallen man "freely" coming to God is anti-biblical. Fallen man must be brought back to life (saved) before he can make the righteous decision to live a godly life.
I can see we're going to have some awesome discussions in the future though Ref.
Lookin' forward to it bro.
God bless
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JesusServant
do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER
Maybe I wasn't clear enough since I had to rush through that post. I look at it slightly differently I guess. We are not capable of loving anything at all. God gives us that ability regardless of the subject of our love being Him or a flower or our dog. No one is special by loving God, because God gave them that ability to love in the first place. We love God only because He first gave us that ability and no matter how bad things look in the world we know that all things work together for the good of those who love Him. Do I love Him to get good things? I'd be lying if I said no, but not the "good things" as some people see it. I nkow you understand what I mean. God gives everyone the ability to love.
I fall in the "we try to live by His Word" because He saved us category. That's what I can't get through to Chelsi or many other Catholics I've debated this with. It's like your earthly father. You love him and he loves you. You know he won't reject you completely when you make mistakes or bad decisions but at the same time you do NOT want to disappoint him because he loves you and you love him.
Then there's always the parables:
(paraphrased) no bad fruit can come from a good tree and no good fruit can come from a bad tree (this is a toughy for non-believers).
(paraphrased) anyone who says he loves God and does not love his brother is a liar and the truth is not in him, for those who do not love what they have seen cannot love what they have not seen.
Boy oh boy are these two parables helpful in life and discernment
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Well, first off, I don't believe God loves everyone, at least not in the biblical sense. Verses like 1 John 4:19 are regularly, IMO, taken out of context to support the idea that God loves everyone. I won't even begin to go into detail about John 3:16. I will just say that I think that most mainstream Christians try to make this mean something that it doesn't because they have a really hard time reconciling their own preconceived notions about the characteristics of God with the idea that God might very well not love everyone. Anyway, I do not believe that God gives everyone the ability to love. I will say that God's grace does rain, to some extent, on the just and the unjust. About the closest example I could give of an unregenerate person biblically loving someone else is probably a parent's feelings toward their children. I know that this opinion will not be well received but I do not believe unsaved people can truly love, at least not in the biblical sense. The reason for that is that biblical love means doing the best for the recipient of your love with no regard for yourself. Now, I can concede that there are quite a few unsaved people with decent morals. The problem is that they don't do things with a godly motive. For instance, an unsaved parent might very well spank their child when they are rebellious, which is a biblical way of dealing with rebellion. While it might be the right response, it is not done for a godly reason and is, therefore, sinful. If our motivation is not based on our love for God, which is always the case for the unregenerate, then no matter what we do is sinful. As hard as this might be to grasp it is the biblical truth. If an unsaved person were to save someone's life, while it very well might be appreciated and a nice thing to do, it wasn't motivated by a desire to love another as we love ourself. Therefore, in a biblical sense, it's sinful. I know at this point in reading someone is going to be wracking their brain to come up with examples of people they know that are unsaved that truly do things for selfless reasons. I encourage you to save you breath. It's biblically unfounded and therefore untrue. The Bible clearly says that unregenerate man is unrighteous and so everything they do is unrighteously motivated and therefore sinful, regardless of it's outward appearance. Even actions that outwardly appear godly and holy and reverent but are not motivated by a love for God are spoken of in the Bible as being sinful and of no benefit.
I agree completely. It's the new nature of regenerate man/woman. God does not just pay for our sins and then leave us in the same fallen state to "work out our salvation." He gives us a new nature. Granted, He leaves the old nature as part of us and the struggle that results between this old nature and our new nature helps us grow in godliness, but God definitely adds something to our make up. That "something" is a new desire, a new motivation. We are now motivated by Christ's love for us. And God, in His sovereignty, is conforming us to the image of that love.
I'd say this is a toughy for most Christians as well and it raises the question of how exactly people come to the conclusion that an unsaved person (bad tree) can bear the good fruit of repentence and faith unto salvation.
God bless my friend,
Don
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This is what I was responding to..Sorry for not making myself clear.
Good Day,
JesusLoveA
This is what I was responding to..Sorry for not making myself clear.
Good Day,
JesusLoveA
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