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What is Eschatology? 4 main views:

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, May 19, 2002.

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  1. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Brian, I know exactly what you mean.
    And I'm still humbled that my limited explaination has been helpful to that understanding.
    You are welcome.

    YBIC
    P70
     
  2. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    I am welcome for what ?
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Brian,
    You said "thank you" to me in both your last posts regarding my explainations of the various eschatological views.

    I then expressed my humility, in both my responses, in the fact that I was able to clarify definitions for you, and responded to your "thank you's" with "you're welcome" which, in my experience with the norms of English conversation, is customary and appropriate.

    If I have stepped over the line or in any way offended you, I apologize.

    Now, you did clarify that although you now understand the definition of preterism, you still do not understand preterism.

    If you would like to gain an understanding of preterism, I would be honored to be of any assistance I can to you, All you need to do is ask!

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  4. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    NO
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    No What? :confused:

    No, I didn't offend you?

    No, I didn't step over the line?

    No, it was not appropriate?

    No, you never thanked me for anything?

    No, you do not want to understand preterism?

    Any clarification would be appriciated!

    Thanks!
    YBIC,
    P70
     
  6. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no .
     
  7. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    I take it Brian means ~NO!~ :D :D
     
  8. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    parousia70:
    Matthew 10:23 says the disciples won't go over all the cities of Israel before Jesus comes. They didn't, we haven't, and he hasn't. The prophecy will be fulfilled because he will come again before all the cities of Israel have been gone over by his disciples.

    Matthew 16:28 says they will "see the Son of man coming in his kingdom," which was fulfilled at the transfiguration (2 Peter 1:16-18).

    Matthew 16:28 doesn't say Jesus' 2nd coming had to be in the lifetime of the apostles. Matthew 16:28 was fulfilled in Matthew 17:1-2, just as Mark 9:1 was fulfilled in Mark 9:2.

    Matthew 23:36 says the judgment will come upon "this generation." But note that that generation (genea) includes those who killed Zacharias in the temple (Matthew 23:35-36, 2 Chronicles 24:20-22), and those who will reject the Lord until they see his 2nd coming (Matthew 23:39), so there genea refers to the nation of the Jews throughout their entire history. Note that genea is translated as nation in Philippians 2:15, so it has more than one meaning.

    In the parable of the fig tree, I believe Jesus was saying that the generation that saw the re-establishment of the nation of physical Israel (the rebudding of the fig tree) would see the tribulation and 2nd coming (Matthew 24:32-34). The nation of physical Israel was re-established in 1948 and I believe a generation is 70 years, for Psalm 90:10 speaks of how long it takes for a generation to pass away, which is exactly what Jesus refers to.

    Matthew 26:64 says Jesus told the high priest that he would see Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven. Even those in Hades who pierced him will see the Lord's coming (Revelation 1:7) after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), for they can see beyond their place of torment (Luke 16:23).

    I believe Luke 21:24 refers to the same treading down of Jerusalem as Revelation 11:2, which was not fulfilled by the Roman siege of Jerusalem, for John didn't prophesy Revelation 11 until more than 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, nor can a surrounding of a city's walls and a treading under foot of a city be equated, nor did 2 Thessalonians 2:4 or such events as described in great detail in Revelation 11 and Revelation 13 occur during the Roman siege.

    GW:
    Christ's 2nd coming will be immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), will be seen by every eye (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30), will bring the resurrection and rapture of the entire church (1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), and will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

    At the same time that the resurrection happens, all those who are still alive and in Christ will be changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-53). None of these things happen to Paul or to the apostles or to anyone since their time.

    ...just as the Apostles who first heard Matthew 24 did not live through those events described therein, for in no history do we find that in the time of the Apostles the stars fell from heaven and the sign of the Son of man appeared in heaven, at which all the tribes of the earth mourned; nor does any history describe how all the tribes of the earth saw when the Son of man came in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and sent his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they gathered together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:29-31). None of this has been fulfilled. No doubt this is why Jesus commanded the apostles to pass on every single thing he taught them to those they preached to (Matthew 28:20).

    The stones of the Wailing Wall stood in the time of Jesus just as they do now; they have not yet been thrown down.

    I believe the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15) is when the Antichrist will sit in a rebuilt Jewish temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, compare Daniel 11:31, 36).

    Rather, a literal prophecy for all its readers up until the 2nd coming.

    While the "last days" began as early as Pentecost (Acts 2:16-17), and the end of the world will indeed come upon the church (1 Corinthians 10:11), still "the end" is not yet (Matthew 24:6, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3).

    When their bodies die, I believe it says the spirits of believers currently go into heaven to be with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8, Philippians 1:21-24, Luke 23:43, Luke 23:46, Acts 7:59).

    I believe that before the former OT (now NT) saints died they were saved as much as was possible before the cross and Pentecost had been accomplished:

    "God... preached before the gospel unto Abraham" (Galatians 3:8); "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad" (John 8:56); "They drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ" (1 Corinthians 10:4); "Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt" (Hebrews 11:26); "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Hebrews 11:13); "They desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city" (Hebrews 11:16).

    I believe that after the resurrection Jesus went and preached to them: "Being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:18-19); "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead" (1 Peter 4:6); and that he led them up into heaven with him when he ascended: "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)" (Ephesians 4:8-10)

    I believe the Mosaic covenant was abolished on the cross: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:14); "There is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof" (Hebrews 7:18); so that Christ was able to join all the former OT (now NT) saints and all the NT saints into one new body: "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man" (Ephesians 2:15); "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all" (Ephesians 4:4-6); which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23) and the bride (Ephesians 5:30-32).

    Jesus said "I am THE resurrection" (John 11:25). The question for us is, when are we who believe in Jesus first resurrected?

    I believe no one but Christ has yet been resurrected into an immortal body, because it says "every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:23). Christ's 2nd coming has not yet occurred, so no one but Christ can have yet been resurrected.

    Secondly, it says ALL "they that are Christ's" will be resurrected and changed at the 2nd coming: "Every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming... We shall ALL be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible" (1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-53). We that are Christ's are all resurrected at the same time, so no one but Christ can have yet been resurrected.

    I believe "the 1st resurrection" (Revelation 20:6) will include those "beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands" (Revelation 20:4), which refers back to the events of Revelation 13.

    Because neither Revelation 13 nor Revelation 19, that is, neither the tribulation nor the 2nd coming, have happened yet, neither can the resurrection have happened yet.

    "In the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Matthew 22:30).

    "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection" (Luke 20:36).

    The resurrection has not happened yet. We are still in mortal bodies. We still marry and we still die.

    To say the resurrection has happened is to overthrow our faith and hope:

    "Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some" (2 Timothy 2:18).

    "Continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel" (Colossians 1:23).

    "The hope and resurrection of the dead" (Acts 23:6).

    "Hope toward God... that there shall be a resurrection of the dead" (Acts 24:15).

    "We are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it" (Romans 8:24-25).

    "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable" (1 Corinthians 15:19).

    "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

    "It doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:2-3).

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead... Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:3, 13).

    I believe they are at rest in heaven, far from any persecution.

    And yet not a hair of their bodies has perished (Luke 21:16, 18), for their bodies will be resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:54) at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:23).

    That day won't overtake the dead Thessalonians as a thief, for they are now together with Christ in heaven (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

    Even if Paul at one time expected the rapture/resurrection in his lifetime (contrast 2 Timothy 4:6), I believe that in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 he is referring to the same "coming" of Jesus and the same "gathering together" of the saints and the same "trumpet" and the same "clouds" as Matthew 24:29-31. I don't believe 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4, 8 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and Matthew 24:29-31 have been fulfilled yet; we do not find them described in any history.
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So I didn't offend you. Good. Thanks for clarifying.
    Peace
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Actually, Jesus told his apostles directly that they would not have finished going over those cities, which positively places His return within their lifetimes, or Jesus is a false prophet.

    Actually, Jesus said only SOME of them wouldn't taste death before that happened. Since it is a fact that ALL were still alive at the transfiguration, Jesus could not have been talking about that event. Jesus was in fact speaking of the "2nd coming"



    More to come........
     
  11. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    Postrib said:

    "...just as the Apostles who first heard Matthew 24 did not live through those events described therein, for in no history do we find that in the time of the Apostles the stars fell from heaven and the sign of the Son of man appeared in heaven, at which all the tribes of the earth mourned; nor does any history describe how all the tribes of the earth saw when the Son of man came in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and sent his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they gathered together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:29-31). None of this has been fulfilled. No doubt this is why Jesus commanded the apostles to pass on every single thing he taught them to those they preached to (Matthew 28:20)."


    Thanks Postrib!:wave:
     
  12. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    parousia70:
    I don't believe it does, for, again, they didn't, we haven't, and he hasn't. The prophecy will be fulfilled because he will come again before all the cities of Israel have been gone over by his disciples.

    Or preterism misinterprets the prophecies of Jesus.

    I believe he could, for only three of the apostles saw it (Mark 9:1-2).

    At the 2nd coming, all those who are still alive and in Christ will be changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-53). This did not happen to any of the apostles.
     
  13. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Postrib, you are an allegorizer, through and through. You don't accept a plain, grammatical meaning of any text. Matthew 10:5,16-23 is for the apostles and no reputable scholar denies it. Yet somehow you are denying it was fulfilled?
     
  14. davo

    davo Member

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    G'day postrib :wave:

    Hey how do you figure this? Just the verse before, verse 27 says:

    "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

    At the 'Transfiguration' there were six present -Peter, James and John, and Jesus, Moses and Elijah. [and no angels]. And no-one recieved rewards -rewards according to many scriptures are all related to the end-time Coming/Resurrection/Judgment.

    Not only that -what was it that between then [when Jesus spoke these words] and the Transfiguration, a whole six days, that was such a threat to the disciples lives that required Jesus to say "some would not taste death till he came." There was NO pursecution at that time. And who died? NO-ONE died as a result of the Transfguration.

    You say: His Kingdom was fulfilled at the Transfiguration -before the Cross?? Mate, this is weird stuff, where do you get it? -not the Bible that's for sure. :(

    -the Transfiguration -I do not think so. This Coming of Christ IS none other than His Parousia at AD70. How is it that you peddle such ideas!

    A Scriptural response will be fine -not wild nor biblically unsubstantiated assuumptions.

    davo
     
  15. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    GW:
    I believe it will be fulfilled because Jesus will come back before the cities of Israel have been gone over.

    davo:
    This has not been fulfilled yet. Christ's 2nd coming will be immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), will be seen by every eye (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30), will bring the resurrection and rapture of the entire church (1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), and will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

    At the 2nd coming, all those who are still alive and in Christ will be changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-53). This did not happen to any of the apostles.

    I don't remember saying that anyone did.

    Mark 9:1 says "they have seen the kingdom of God come with power (dunamis)," which was fulfilled at the transfiguration, "for we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power (dunamis) and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount" (2 Peter 1:16-18).
     
  16. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    Man, it takes the disciples a LONG time to go over all the cities of Israel don't you think? I yet have to see a 2,000 year old apostle walking around in Israel..


    Yes...the entire church : "We who are alive an REMAIN till the coming of the Lord" (1 Thes 4:15). Is not talking about us, americans living in 2002, but people that were alive 2,000 years ago..that they would REMAIN until the coming of the Lord meaning that the coming of the Lord would have taken place within their lifetimes, nor yours.

    Really? What happened to the apostles then...where are they today?

    Mark 9:1 does NOT say what you just quoted...at least be honest when you quote the Bible. Mark 9:1 says the following:

    "And Jesus was saying to them, “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”

    Did the Kingdom of God come at the transfiguration?
     
  17. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    When did the Apostles go over all the cities of Israel? When did Jesus come?

    While Paul at one time may have expected the resurrection/changing in his lifetime (contrast 2 Timothy 4:6), I believe that in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 he is referring to the same "coming" of Jesus and the same "gathering together" of the saints and the same "trumpet" and the same "clouds" as Matthew 24:29-31. I don't believe 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4, 8 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and Matthew 24:29-31 have been fulfilled yet; we do not find them described in any history.

    Their spirits are now in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:6-8), while their bodies remain in their graves.

    I believe it does say "they have seen the kingdom of God come with power" (Mark 9:1, KJV).

    A vision of it came. "There be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power" (Mark 9:1). The transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-2; Mark 9:2) was a "vision" (Matthew 17:9) in which some of the Apostles (Mark 9:1-2) "had seen" (Mark 9:9) "the kingdom of God come with power (dunamis)" (Mark 9:1, compare 2 Peter 1:16-18).
     
  18. davo

    davo Member

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    Postrib, you clearly said Christ's Kingdom was FULFILLED at the Transfiguration [16:28] -and yet in ignoring context go on to say that verse 27 before is not fulfilled -this is cut-n-paste "eisegesis." This is a fruitless attempt to make Scripture say what it doesn't say. Stick with the context!

    The word "Assuredly" of verse 28 relates DIRECTLY to that which is before -verse 27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works." In saying otherwise, you only ignore and explain away for sake of an insuffient and deficient eschatological position i.e., Futurism.

    Not only that, but you need to do the very same thing ALL over again with Mk 9:1 -ignore context and setting. Have a look at the verse before, that you wish wasn't there:

    Mk 8:38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."

    Notice this generation WAS Jesus' generation -and what would the experience of THAT generation be? -some standing there would be ALIVE to see "the Son of Man coming in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." -hense Paul's "those remaining."

    Further, no one denies that Peter is refering to the Transfiguration in 2Pt 1:16-18. That however is not the issue -YOU said His Kingdom was FULFILLED at the Transfiguration, and yet context refutes this, as NONE DIED [as some would, clearly implied -according to Jesus' words]. NO REWARDS GIVEN AND, NO ANGELS -how can you keep ignoring TEXT AND CONTEXT?? -in doing so you present only PRETEXT i.e., "an excuse."

    Postrib, Futurism is faulty, and at worst Dispensationalism delusional.

    davo
     
  19. davo

    davo Member

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    As you can see, I'm not peddling some new idea -check out the year:

    davo
     
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