What is death?

YosemiteSam

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OK what math? I can buy that Jesus was seen as glorified at the transfiguration. But what does this have to do with death? I wasn't asking about the living in mentioning the transifguration. I was asking about this dust of Moses and Elias. Where did they come from and where did the go? The thread is realy about death and not any of the aspects of the dead.
  • It was mentioned that the spirit goes back to God Who gave it.
  • There is no place of the soul.
  • The body has returned to dust.
  • It appears that the soul has disappeared into nothingness.
  • There is activity in heaven
  • Jesus says the dead can speak and experience pain and emotion
  • Jesus shows the wicked in torment
There is more. I'll add to the list tomorrow.

It was a vision of the future...so if it was a vision, and one of the future don't you think Moses and Elias were part of the vision as well? It would be like looking at a tele"vision" show, that showed New York in the year 2320...Those people in the vision are not necessarily already living in the year 2011...They can't be!
 
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It was a vision of the future...so if it was a vision, and one of the future don't you think Moses and Elias were part of the vision as well? It would be like looking at a tele"vision" show, that showed New York in the year 2320...Those people in the vision are not necessarily already living in the year 2011...They can't be!
So what happened to the physical Jesus? Where there 2 of Him? It does say Jesus took them there.
 
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What I would like to know, is how does the death and resurrection play out in your words...

I beileve that the OT saints have arisen from the dead and are already experiencing the joys of heaven.

I believe that the Christian of these days upon demise of the body go to some blissful place if not heaven.

I believe that the unregenerrate go to some undesirable place if not hell as meant generally by the term.

I believe that those who goe to an undesirable place are resurrrected (broth forth) to a judgement and sent to their final destiny the lake of fire where they will be treated just like satan. I believe this is a choice an individual makes before the demise of the body.

The righteous (Christian) has already passed (excaped) this judgement and have entered life as Jesus said.

I believe that the second death is only seperation from God and His presence and not a poof or annihilation thing. Yes I understand annihilation and some should take great comfort in it. But that doesn't make annihilation in the second death a fact.

Now would you like to discuss supporting Scriptures?
 
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patience7

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I beileve that the OT saints have arisen from the dead and are already experiencing the joys of heaven.

I believe that the Christian of these days upon demise of the body go to some blissful place if not heaven.

I believe that the unregenerrate go to some undesirable place if not hell as meant generally by the term.

I believe that those who goe to an undesirable place are resurrrected (broth forth) to a judgement and sent to their final destiny the lake of fire where they will be treated just like satan. I believe this is a choice an individual makes before the demise of the body.

The righteous (Christian) has already passed (excaped) this judgement and have entered life as Jesus said.

I believe that the second death is only seperation from God and His presence and not a poof or annihilation thing. Yes I understand annihilation and some should take great comfort in it. But that doesn't make annihilation in the second death a fact.

Now would you like to discuss supporting Scriptures?

I only want to ask - If the dead are already raised what need is there of a resurrection when Christ returns?

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

And then: 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Has the resurrection already happened - and I got left behind? :confused: Oh, no!!!!
 
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Mikecpking

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I beileve that the OT saints have arisen from the dead and are already experiencing the joys of heaven.

I believe that the Christian of these days upon demise of the body go to some blissful place if not heaven.

I believe that the unregenerrate go to some undesirable place if not hell as meant generally by the term.

I believe that those who goe to an undesirable place are resurrrected (broth forth) to a judgement and sent to their final destiny the lake of fire where they will be treated just like satan. I believe this is a choice an individual makes before the demise of the body.

The righteous (Christian) has already passed (excaped) this judgement and have entered life as Jesus said.

I believe that the second death is only seperation from God and His presence and not a poof or annihilation thing. Yes I understand annihilation and some should take great comfort in it. But that doesn't make annihilation in the second death a fact.

Now would you like to discuss supporting Scriptures?

Very simple, the resurrection has not happened yet so no one has been raised an certainly no OT saints!

Scriptures you should look at:

John 6:40

New International Version (NIV)

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


Jesus' promise is we are raised on the last day. The 'last day' has not happened yet!

Acts 2:29-34

New International Version (NIV)



29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand

David is still in the grave!



Daniel 12:2
New International Version (NIV)

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

No one has been resurrected yet to be condemned or to receive eternal life!

Even Martha knew when the resurrection was!

John 11
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

So, you seem to believe something else. A different view to the resurrection of the dead on the last day.
 
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zeke37

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I only want to ask - If the dead are already raised what need is there of a resurrection when Christ returns?

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

And then: 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Has the resurrection already happened - and I got left behind? :confused: Oh, no!!!!
ressurection is not a term applied for life in heaven, but rather life on earth.

resurrection is when the dead leave heaven with God and come here to earth to be raised.

we exist in heaven before the resurrection.
 
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YosemiteSam

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ressurection is not a term applied for life in heaven, but rather life on earth.

resurrection is when the dead leave heaven with God and come here to earth to be raised.

we exist in heaven before the resurrection.

NO, you do not exist in heaven as an immortal being then back here to be raised a physical being again...wrong wrong wrong
 
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patience7

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ressurection is not a term applied for life in heaven, but rather life on earth.

resurrection is when the dead leave heaven with God and come here to earth to be raised.

we exist in heaven before the resurrection.

Resurrection is the Gk word anastasis and it means "a rising from the dead". Why would the dead leave heaven, come back here, and then be raised again?
 
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Very simple, the resurrection has not happened yet so no one has been raised an certainly no OT saints!
I base my belief on I Peter 3;18-20.

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Scriptures you should look at:

John 6:40

New International Version (NIV)

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
I have always taken this to be believers after having witnessed Jesus. Moses did not know Jesus or of Jesus nor did they believe in Jesus. One might say oh yes they did. To which I ask then how did they not recognize Him when He came? This verse definitely means those who have seen Jesus in the flesh. This would include all those afterward or salvation could only be had for those actual witnesses.
Jesus' promise is we are raised on the last day. The 'last day' has not happened yet!
I have no problem with this statement. I have been of the opinion that it didn't include the OT saints who I have thought were resurrected with Jesus.
Acts 2:29-34

New International Version (NIV)



29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand

David is still in the grave!
I'm not going to argue with you on that. It has nothing to do with Moses or Elias who were present at the transfiguration and talked with Jesus Who was transfigured/transformed. The Scripture doesn't say that Jesus existed outside of whatever took place. That is there weren't 2 images of Jesus to the awake disciples. My argument is that both lived in a continued personality each had during their physical lives on earth. The choices are that Jesus was consulting a medium or mediums or Jesus was actually in reality talking with these being who were supernaturally present. The same sort of thing happened to Abraham. Some beings appeared to be men who Abraham entreated, feed and then disapeared while one of them seemed to linger. Did Abraham feed a vision that consumed real food?
Daniel 12:2
New International Version (NIV)

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

No one has been resurrected yet to be condemned or to receive eternal life!

Even Martha knew when the resurrection was!

John 11
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

So, you seem to believe something else. A different view to the resurrection of the dead on the last day.
I don't think so. And I link my belief inpart to I Pet 3:18-20.
 
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I only want to ask - If the dead are already raised what need is there of a resurrection when Christ returns?

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

And then: 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Has the resurrection already happened - and I got left behind? :confused: Oh, no!!!!
Sorry to mess with your head. I think that part of the key is your bolded part of the verse above that says in Christ. Those would be post resurrection individuals and not necessarily the OT saints who didn't have knowledge of Jesus such as we have.

So I don't think you have any worries yet. If you do then I should also along with everyone else here.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by zeke37 ressurection is not a term applied for life in heaven, but rather life on earth.

resurrection is when the dead leave heaven with God and come here to earth to be raised.

we exist in heaven before the resurrection.
NO, you do not exist in heaven as an immortal being then back here to be raised a physical being again...wrong wrong wrong
I am torn betwix the 2 :D
 
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patience7

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Sorry to mess with your head. I think that part of the key is your bolded part of the verse above that says in Christ. Those would be post resurrection individuals and not necessarily the OT saints who didn't have knowledge of Jesus such as we have.

So I don't think you have any worries yet. If you do then I should also along with everyone else here.

LOL :D

I believe the OT saints, any who haven't heard the gospel, those that refused to believe would be in the resurrection of the just and the unjust to be judged.

Has this happened "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God"? Because that should be the start of the resurrection; when the dead in Christ shall rise. Anyway that's my take on it -
 
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Sitting here viewing the post, since I have been absent so much this last week...looking at the different arguments for and against...people being in heaven now/or not...Looks like the "does not" out weigh the "does"...at least it looks like the evidence (God's Word) is in favor of the "NOT"... But I was wondering? Is there physical evidence that those who have passed have not gone to heaven? The bible certainly indicates that there is! So remember what you have read in these pasts post and read the following, then make your decision!


Notice carefully, Gal 3.16 and 3.29 “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made…And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Here Paul wrote to the gentile converts in Galatia. Paul states, that the Christians are heir to the promise. Please note that an heir is someone who will possess something and has not inherited what he/she shall possess; an heir to inherit. Not an heir to something imagined, the bible gives the answer.


Now what is he/she suppose to inherit? Lets look at the promises given to Abraham. Note: Rom 15.8 first! “Now I say Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, and to confirm the promises given to the fathers.” The fathers are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob Acts 3.13


Whatever, the promise is to Abraham that is what the true Christian shall inherit. It is important that we know. What did God promise Abraham? Turn to Gen 12. 6-7 “And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land. And the Eternal appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land.” So the promise was the physical land of Israel. Turn to Gen 13. 14-15 “And the Eternal said unto Abram…Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed forever.” The promise was made forever! It’s an eternal inheritance! A PROMISE OF PHYSICAL LAND RIGHT HERE ON EARTH!


God conditioned the promise on obedience! Look it up Gen 22.15-18 and Gen 26.5 gives the answer! You remember that Isaac and Jacob were also the fathers. The same promise was made to them in Gen 26.2-5; and Gen 35.9-12…



Look what Stephen said, who paid with his life for these words. “And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; the God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotmia, before he dwelt in Charran, and said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I will show thee. Then came he out of the land of the Chaldeans, and..removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell (Israel today). And he gave him NONE INHERITANCE in it, no not so much as to set his foot on…” Abraham as of Stephen’s time had not received his eternal inheritance, he remained an heir to the promise. “…and He promised that He would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him when as yet he had no child.” Notice Heb 11.8-10, 13 “….By faith Abraham sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country.” “dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise…for he looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God…These all did in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off…” The bible says plainly that all these did not go to their reward at death! They died, without receiving the promises. Abraham is dead, just as Jesus spoke. Jn 8.52-53


When shall the true Christians receive the promise? Christ said, “When you see these things come to pass, know you that the kingdom of God is near.” The Kingdom of God is a government of God to rule this earth! The saints are to be “kings and priest forever”. Look it up! Why not now? Since “eternal inheritance” of the earth constitutes the better promises of the New Testament, and since the message which Christ delivered in confirming these promises was the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, it follows that the land of this earth, and Jesus confirmed it, is the territory occupied and governed by the Kingdom of God!!! At Christ second coming, is when the children of God shall “rise up” out of the graves to receive their inheritance. 1 Cor 15; 1 Thess 4 “For the Lord himself shall descend (just Christ descending) from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ (not out of Christ) shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds (clouds surrounding this earth), to meet the Lord in the air (air around the earth): and so shall we ever be with the Lord” 1 Thess 4:16-17



Abraham has not received yet this promise of land. We can look toward Jerusalem now, and know that those who have died in Christ have not yet received their reward! That government of God is not established right now in Jerusalem. That area of the world is full of murder, adultery, strife a powder keg ready to explode. God speed the day!
 
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YosemiteSam

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Sorry to mess with your head. I think that part of the key is your bolded part of the verse above that says in Christ. Those would be post resurrection individuals and not necessarily the OT saints who didn't have knowledge of Jesus such as we have.

So I don't think you have any worries yet. If you do then I should also along with everyone else here.

I can only say that your post, Paul even directly denies in 1 Cor 15..."Now if Christ be preached that HE ROSE from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?...For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain: you are yet in your sins. Then (unless there is a resurrection from the dead) they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED"!!!!!!!!!!!

If there is no resurrection from the dead, then those who have died are "PERISHED"!!! UTTERLY PERISHED!!!! Not alive enjoying the promised inheritance, alive and floating around in heaven somewhere, but PERISHED!

That includes all the disciples, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the prophets, Sarah, David and too many to list!!!



Modern fables are everywhere!
 
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LOL :D

I believe the OT saints, any who haven't heard the gospel, those that refused to believe would be in the resurrection of the just and the unjust to be judged.

Has this happened "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God"? Because that should be the start of the resurrection; when the dead in Christ shall rise. Anyway that's my take on it -

doesn't Jesus come with a bunch of His saints like say 10,000s of them - Jude 14.
 
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I can only say that your post, Paul even directly denies in 1 Cor 15..."Now if Christ be preached that HE ROSE from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?...For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain: you are yet in your sins. Then (unless there is a resurrection from the dead) they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED"!!!!!!!!!!!

If there is no resurrection from the dead, then those who have died are "PERISHED"!!! UTTERLY PERISHED!!!! Not alive enjoying the promised inheritance, alive and floating around in heaven somewhere, but PERISHED!

That includes all the disciples, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the prophets, Sarah, David and too many to list!!!



Modern fables are everywhere!
Paul is arguing about the resurrection here and not the state of the dead. In fact if there isn't a ressurection, there isn't much sense of continuing a discussion. One can't be resurrected if they don't exist. Seems fairly simple to me. This would apply for both the righteous and the wicked.
 
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