What is death?

[Timothew]

Ah so the Bible is wrong and not a basis of fact. I know there was no reason to believe it. The Bible is only based on Greek philosophy.

No. People import greek philosophy into the bible. Greek philosophy assumes an "immortal soul", so when people read the bible with this assumption they come up with false ideas that are not in the bible. The bible says "the wages of sin is death". If you start with the assumption that the soul is immortal, then death doesn't really mean death. If you start with no assumptions and read "the wages of sin is death", then you understand it. Sin entered the world through one man, Adam, and death came in with sin. Coming from a immortal soul presupposition, this doesn't make any sense, so people start to think that death doesn't really mean death. The greek idea of immortality of the soul is imported in.

 

[Mikecpking]

No. People import greek philosophy into the bible. Greek philosophy assumes an "immortal soul", so when people read the bible with this assumption they come up with false ideas that are not in the bible. The bible says "the wages of sin is death". If you start with the assumption that the soul is immortal, then death doesn't really mean death. If you start with no assumptions and read "the wages of sin is death", then you understand it. Sin entered the world through one man, Adam, and death came in with sin. Coming from a immortal soul presupposition, this doesn't make any sense, so people start to think that death doesn't really mean death. The greek idea of immortality of the soul is imported in.

Hi Tim,
That was put even better than I managed!

 

[zeke37]

c

i just don't see how you read that they're in heaven from those verses.

I have to agree with JohnRabbit with that, those verses don't say what you are asserting

other proofs were given.
Mat24, Mar13, 1Thes4, 1Cor15, Rev5/6/12/19/22
i thought this added to the proof, and was from the Gospels,
which was where another poster thought they saw proof against.

So where was his body that wasa in dispute? Was it claimed to come and take possession of? Is this a legal war in heaven about the body which may or may not be there? I contend that is where it was and is.

i assmue his body was in heaven,
as i think the clue, no man knows where he is buried, refers to.
Moses was in his body.
i don't know about a legal war.
i think it is there as well.

If I read this correctly you seem to claim that human personalities are indeed in heaven. Does any of you verses claim that the wicked are there as well. I seem to remember you saying that all souls went back to God. God resides in heaven.

we disagree on where the wrong side of the gulf, of Luke16, is located.
i say it's in heaven, you say not.

Satan is in heaven, at least on occasion, so why not other evil beings.

Yes I understand the omnipresence attribute of God. NTL He is still described as sitting on a throne which is somewhere and I say that would be heaven according to the Scripture.

where ever His throne is...He is....

most of the time, as far as i know, that's in heaven.

 

[zeke37]

ps. mike.....
i don't believe that everyones soul is immortal at all.

but we exist in some form, until Judgement.

 

[JohnRabbit]

So all 3 Gospels refer to them being in a full conscience wake state. I then don't quite grasp the sense in which Luke says vivion as in a dream or state of sleep. Jesus was transfigured before their eyes. Do you have some other clue as to what Luke meant? The disciples weren' asleep.

yes, scratch!

in the "vision", Jesus was shown in His glorified state, along with moses and elijah, in their glorified state (lk 9:31-32).

however, we have this verse to give us perspective:

John 7:39(NKJV)
39But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

and you know when the Holy Spirit was given...

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[from scratch]

No. People import greek philosophy into the bible. Greek philosophy assumes an "immortal soul", so when people read the bible with this assumption they come up with false ideas that are not in the bible. The bible says "the wages of sin is death". If you start with the assumption that the soul is immortal, then death doesn't really mean death. If you start with no assumptions and read "the wages of sin is death", then you understand it. Sin entered the world through one man, Adam, and death came in with sin. Coming from a immortal soul presupposition, this doesn't make any sense, so people start to think that death doesn't really mean death. The greek idea of immortality of the soul is imported in.

Sorry to confuse you. I thought Jesus said or indicate eternal punishing as some call it in a previous post. This whole thing is getting so convoluted it is difficult to keep track of. I'll go back and look for what I said on the matter. I don't and won't support annihiliation. I don't think the Bible does either. I take it that the rich man's problem never ended. This is also depicted in the burning dump outside the city called gehenna. In one's life time they never knew the fire to be out - thus eternal. Yes I know that some will use this to try and disprove eternal because that fire no longer burns. No sale!

 

[from scratch]

c

other proofs were given.
Mat24, Mar13, 1Thes4, 1Cor15, Rev5/6/12/19/22
i thought this added to the proof, and was from the Gospels,
which was where another poster thought they saw proof against.

i assmue his body was in heaven,
as i think the clue, no man knows where he is buried, refers to.
Moses was in his body.
i don't know about a legal war.
i think it is there as well.


we disagree on where the wrong side of the gulf, of Luke16, is located.
i say it's in heaven, you say not.

Is there something in John 's tour and discription of heaven that describes such a part of heaven? I seem to have missed that.

Satan is in heaven, at least on occasion, so why not other evil beings.

Does satan reside there as you're claiming others do? If so why isn't satan demand their bodies and souls as well as Moses'? I think they aren't there. I think satan has possession of them.

where ever His throne is...He is....

most of the time, as far as i know, that's in heaven.

This limits God's presense which is impossible due to His characteristic of omnipresence.

This is really getting off topic though. Start another thread on it if you wish to continue. I may visit as time allows.

 

[from scratch]

yes, scratch!

in the "vision", Jesus was shown in His glorified state, along with moses and elijah, in their glorified state (lk 9:31-32).

however, we have this verse to give us perspective:

John 7:39(NKJV)
39But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

and you know when the Holy Spirit was given...

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please explain how it is a vision (in the sense we think of a vision) when the Scripture says Jesus was transfigured/transformed in front of the very awake eyes.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Please explain how it is a vision (in the sense we think of a vision) when the Scripture says Jesus was transfigured/transformed in front of the very awake eyes.

all i can say is that any thing God wants to happen in a vision will happen.

but, you have to admit, that they saw everyone in "vision", or you have a big problem with jn 7:39!

that's real deal!

 

[martymonster]

ps. mike.....
i don't believe that everyones soul is immortal at all.

but we exist in some form, until Judgement.

Yes we do exist in some form until judgement.
Rotting flesh!

For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing!

 

[from scratch]

all i can say is that any thing God wants to happen in a vision will happen.

but, you have to admit, that they saw everyone in "vision", or you have a big problem with jn 7:39!

that's real deal!

Don't connect John 7:39 with a vision.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Don't connect John 7:39 with a vision.

ok from scratch, when was Jesus glorified? hint: (jn 7:39)

in the "vision" of the transfiguration, He was seen as glorified!

now, do the math.

 

[patience7]

This is what God says about death:

For this we say by the word of the Lord: 1 Thessalonians 4

1) Jesus was brought again from the dead so will his people be (v14)
2) We which are alive and remain till his coming shall not precede (RV) those who have fallen asleep
3) And therefore they cannot be with the Lord before us (v15)
4) The first thing to happen will be "the dead in Christ shall rise first." Resurrection concerns only "the dead" (v16)
5) Then the living shall be "caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air" (v17) - "to meet the Lord himself" (v17)
This is the manner in which we shall be "with the Lord".

Living: Psalm 146:2 While I live I will praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.

In contrast to dying: Psalm 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Living: Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know nothing, neither have they any more reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. i.e. dead are the dead - those that have ceased to live - dead opposite of living - set in direct contrast to: the living know - the dead know nothing.

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Corresponds with Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. dust to dust - nothing is said in Scripture as to the spirit apart from the body, either before their union, which made man "a living soul (person)" or after the union is broken when man becomes a "dead soul (person)". Where scripture is silent - we remain silent.

Sheol/Hades = grave which represents a place of silence

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give you thanks?
Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psalms 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy loving kindness be declared in the grave? . . . .
Isaiah 38:18,19 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee; they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day;. . .

Believers who die are said to be asleep - because we shall awake!!!

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers and saw corruption: Acts 13:36
. . . .And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Stephen Acts 7:60)
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep . . . . 1 Thessalonians 4

As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake with thy likeness.

This is what God says about death. Anything other than what God says about death is pure speculation on our part. The rich man and Lazarus is a parable and a parable is used to teach a lesson - what exactly is being taught - I'm not sure - I have my ideas but I'm not sure enough - so I just keep quite!!!!

Gosh, I didn't realize this was soooo long - sorry.

P.S. Paraphrased from a book by E. W. Bullinger

 

[from scratch]

This is what God says about death:

For this we say by the word of the Lord: 1 Thessalonians 4

1) Jesus was brought again from the dead so will his people be (v14)
2) We which are alive and remain till his coming shall not precede (RV) those who have fallen asleep
3) And therefore they cannot be with the Lord before us (v15)
4) The first thing to happen will be "the dead in Christ shall rise first." Resurrection concerns only "the dead" (v16)
5) Then the living shall be "caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air" (v17) - "to meet the Lord himself" (v17)
This is the manner in which we shall be "with the Lord".

Living: Psalm 146:2 While I live I will praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.

In contrast to dying: Psalm 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Living: Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know nothing, neither have they any more reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. i.e. dead are the dead - those that have ceased to live - dead opposite of living - set in direct contrast to: the living know - the dead know nothing.

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Corresponds with Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. dust to dust - nothing is said in Scripture as to the spirit apart from the body, either before their union, which made man "a living soul (person)" or after the union is broken when man becomes a "dead soul (person)". Where scripture is silent - we remain silent.

Sheol/Hades = grave which represents a place of silence

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give you thanks?
Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psalms 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy loving kindness be declared in the grave? . . . .
Isaiah 38:18,19 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee; they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day;. . .

Believers who die are said to be asleep - because we shall awake!!!

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers and saw corruption: Acts 13:36
. . . .And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Stephen Acts 7:60)
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep . . . . 1 Thessalonians 4

As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake with thy likeness.

This is what God says about death. Anything other than what God says about death is pure speculation on our part. The rich man and Lazarus is a parable and a parable is used to teach a lesson - what exactly is being taught - I'm not sure - I have my ideas but I'm not sure enough - so I just keep quite!!!!

Gosh, I didn't realize this was soooo long - sorry.

P.S. Paraphrased from a book by E. W. Bullinger

Nice post. thanks and you even gave a source. WOW!

 

[from scratch]

ok from scratch, when was Jesus glorified? hint: (jn 7:39)

in the "vision" of the transfiguration, He was seen as glorified!


now, do the math.

OK what math? I can buy that Jesus was seen as glorified at the transfiguration. But what does this have to do with death? I wasn't asking about the living in mentioning the transifguration. I was asking about this dust of Moses and Elias. Where did they come from and where did the go? The thread is realy about death and not any of the aspects of the dead.

• It was mentioned that the spirit goes back to God Who gave it.
• There is no place of the soul.
• The body has returned to dust.
• It appears that the soul has disappeared into nothingness.
• There is activity in heaven
• Jesus says the dead can speak and experience pain and emotion
• Jesus shows the wicked in torment

There is more. I'll add to the list tomorrow.

 

[zeke37]

Yes we do exist in some form until judgement.
Rotting flesh!

For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing!

refers JUST to the flesh part of us...not to what exists after the flesh dies.

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.



10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.



13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:



35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

 

[JohnRabbit]

OK what math? I can buy that Jesus was seen as glorified at the transfiguration. But what does this have to do with death? I wasn't asking about the living in mentioning the transifguration. I was asking about this dust of Moses and Elias. Where did they come from and where did the go? The thread is realy about death and not any of the aspects of the dead.

• It was mentioned that the spirit goes back to God Who gave it.
• There is no place of the soul.
• The body has returned to dust.
• It appears that the soul has disappeared into nothingness.
• There is activity in heaven
• Jesus says the dead can speak and experience pain and emotion
• Jesus shows the wicked in torment

There is more. I'll add to the list tomorrow.

what math!?!

if the Christ wasn't glorified until after the Holy Spirit arrived, then how could He be glorified before that?

therefore, it was a vision and, moses and elijah there with Him, was part of the vision.

it was a "peek" into the future, but nevertheless, a vision.

 

[from scratch]

what math!?!

if the Christ wasn't glorified until after the Holy Spirit arrived, then how could He be glorified before that?

therefore, it was a vision and, moses and elijah there with Him, was part of the vision.

it was a "peek" into the future, but nevertheless, a vision.

Jesus was glorified in their presense while they were awake at the transfiguration.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Nice post. thanks and you even gave a source. WOW!

You're right scratch,,,she did put out a very nice post...she spent some time on that! Looks like she nailed it!

 

[JohnRabbit]

Jesus was glorified in their presense while they were awake at the transfiguration.

then explain that in light of jn 7:39!