What is death?

zeke37 · Nov 28, 2011

do you dispute all the sriptures that i posted? just wondering.

their flesh bodies are dust.
but they exist in heaven.

24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27And last of all the woman died also.
28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

23In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

JohnRabbit · Nov 29, 2011

zeke37 said:
do you dispute all the sriptures that i posted? just wondering.

their flesh bodies are dust.
but they exist in heaven.

24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27And last of all the woman died also.
28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

23In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

i just don't see how you read that they're in heaven from those verses.

from scratch · Nov 29, 2011

Are we talking about death or the dead?

from scratch · Nov 29, 2011

JohnRabbit said:
Numbers 12:6(NKJV)
6Then He said, Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision; I speak to him in a dream.

Acts 10:9-17(NKJV)
9The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour.10Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13And a voice came to him, Rise, Peter; kill and eat. 14But Peter said, Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean. 15And a voice spoke to him again the second time, What God has cleansed you must not call common. 16This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again. 17Now while Peter wondered within himself what this vision which he had seen meant, behold, the men who had been sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simons house, and stood before the gate.

Your point is... I didn't read anywhere that the disciples were in a trance or some altered state at the transfigeration. And I did give a definition of vision as used in the narrative. Will you please do the same for your verses. The mention of trance puts Peter in a different state of being than at the transfiguration. I wagewr this is the same for your other quote as well.

from scratch · Nov 29, 2011

zeke37 said:
Scratch
Moses died and no one knows where he was buried,
but we know that his "body was in dispute in heaven.
implies bodily resurretion.

Elijah did not die, and was taken bodily to heaven.

of course, these are the exceptions,
and i think the best candidates for the two olive trees of Rev11

So where was his body that wasa in dispute? Was it claimed to come and take possession of? Is this a legal war in heaven about the body which may or may not be there? I contend that is where it was and is.

from scratch · Nov 29, 2011

JohnRabbit said:
John 3:13(NKJV)
13No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Please provide discussion. Thanks.

from scratch · Nov 29, 2011

zeke37 said:
and no one has ascended....of his own....
nor does anyone else sit at God's right hand in Heaven.
not even David.
but there is plently of biblial proof for what ever remains after flesh death, as existing and being very much awake in heaven

it is the dead's state before the resurrection.

but everyone that has died in the flesh, is there today.

24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

If I read this correctly you seem to claim that human personalities are indeed in heaven. Does any of you verses claim that the wicked are there as well. I seem to remember you saying that all souls went back to God. God resides in heaven. Yes I understand the omnipresence attribute of God. NTL He is still described as sitting on a throne which is somewhere and I say that would be heaven according to the Scripture.

Sieben · Nov 29, 2011

JohnRabbit said:
i just don't see how you read that they're in heaven from those verses.

I have to agree with JohnRabbit with that, those verses don't say what you are asserting

from scratch · Nov 29, 2011

YosemiteSam said:
I think Johnrabbit was clear in his post showing what a vision is....but I see you have posted the definition from Strongs Concordance...but you left out the part "especially supernatural"...

So you deride me for not pasting the entire definition. I posted what I thought applied. I don't deny that what they saw was indeed a supernatural event. I do not agree that they were in an altered stated making this like a dream. They observed the phyical body of Jesus (Who the were with) take on a different effect and talk to people that came from some where else. This sort of happening is similar to Jacob westling with the angel or Abraham feeding and talking to angels. Very real events as they are related to us. If this was a vision in the sense you claim there would have been 2 figures of Jesus instead of an altered state (transifigured) of Jesus. There is no indication of the disciples being in some other state of being than normal.

As far as the disciples, they were active participants of the event; but not participants in the vision...Jesus while praying was transfigured...and the disciples woke to see Jesus in his glory, and two men with him, Elijah and Moses...Christ was preparing for His own departure which would soon happen in Jerusalem...Then the disciples (physical humans) became sorely afraid...The disciples Peter, John and James did not speak to Elijah or Moses!

I see nothing in the narrative indicating sleep in neither narrative (Mat or MK). Would you kindly point this out?

Why the vision? They were being given proof of the resurrection from the dead...proof that it would occur...see Mark 9:10 "And they kept the saying, questioning among themselves what the rising again from the dead should mean." Then they questioned Him about Moses and Elijah...

It was a supernatural vision...

You can find it in Mark 9, Matt 17 and Luke 9

I don't understand the phrase heavy with sleep. But please read the verse. It clearly says they saw the 2 men with Jesus in the same verse while specifically awake. Here is the verse - 32But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

There is no evidence that Jesus woke them up or that they were actually asleep.

from scratch · Nov 29, 2011

JohnRabbit said:
ok zeke,

speaking to abraham, God said this:

Genesis 15:15(NKJV)
15Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age.

and here's what israel said:

Genesis 47:30(NKJV)
30but let me lie with my fathers; you shall carry me out of Egypt and bury me in their burial place. And he said, I will do as you have said.

where are the fathers?

Genesis 49:29(NKJV)
29Then he charged them and said to them: I am to be gathered to my people; bury me with my fathers in the cave that is in the field of Ephron the Hittite,

also God said to moses:

Deuteronomy 31:16(NKJV)
16And the Lord said to Moses: Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.

so, where are the fathers, zeke?

And to what aspect do you refer to? Do you refer to the body or soul? It has been shown that these personalities are active somewhere in some form. Thus they have to be both in exixtence and alive.

from scratch · Nov 29, 2011

James 75 said:
What about it?

The transfiguration was not literal, it was a vision.

Mat. 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.

So Jesus said. I believe Him, don't you?

32But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. LK 9

Do vision occur when awake or an unaltered state?

from scratch · Nov 29, 2011

YosemiteSam said:
Me thinketh some studying might be in order so you fully understand the importance of why three days and three nights...

Please instruct us. You brought up the importance of 3 days and nights, which BTW aren't three 24 hour periods of time.

JohnRabbit · Nov 30, 2011

from scratch said:
32But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. LK 9

Do vision occur when awake or an unaltered state?

however they occur, we know by reading daniel where they occur:

Daniel 2:28(NKJV)
28But there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the latter days. Your dream, and the visions of your head upon your bed, were these:

Mikecpking · Nov 30, 2011

from scratch said:
And to what aspect do you refer to? Do you refer to the body or soul? It has been shown that these personalities are active somewhere in some form. Thus they have to be both in exixtence and alive.

Hi Scratch,
It has also been shown that the idea of an immortal soul is based on Greek philosophy and not on the bible. They are still in the grave (John 5:28-29)

Mikecpking · Nov 30, 2011

from scratch said:
32But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. LK 9

Do vision occur when awake or an unaltered state?

Visions can occur when one is awake, similar to Jacob's vision of a stairway to heaven.

from scratch · Nov 30, 2011

JohnRabbit said:
however they occur, we know by reading daniel where they occur:

Daniel 2:28(NKJV)
28But there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the latter days. Your dream, and the visions of your head upon your bed, were these:

So all 3 Gospels refer to them being in a full conscience wake state. I then don't quite grasp the sense in which Luke says vivion as in a dream or state of sleep. Jesus was transfigured before their eyes. Do you have some other clue as to what Luke meant? The disciples weren' asleep.

from scratch · Nov 30, 2011

Mikecpking said:
Hi Scratch,
It has also been shown that the idea of an immortal soul is based on Greek philosophy and not on the bible. They are still in the grave (John 5:28-29)

Ah so the Bible is wrong and not a basis of fact. I know there was no reason to believe it. The Bible is only based on Greek philosophy.

Mikecpking · Nov 30, 2011

from scratch said:
Ah so the Bible is wrong and not a basis of fact. I know there was no reason to believe it. The Bible is only based on Greek philosophy.

Hi Scratch,
I don't understand your remark. The bible does not teach an immortal soul just as the Jewish encyclopedia confirms and its the influence of Greek philosophy that has led to this belief and nothing from the bible.

from scratch · Nov 30, 2011

Mikecpking said:
Visions can occur when one is awake, similar to Jacob's vision of a stairway to heaven.

But wabbit said they occur when asleep and really left me to believe that is the only time they occur. Really indicating that the disciples were a sleep and really saw nothing. Yet Jesus isn't recorded saying anything about a dream or vision from a stance form. Am I siding with wabbit in this? NO!

Is the subject of the thread visions? NO! How did it come up? I asked about it because of Moses and Elias both having passed from the physical world to what I call an eternal state. Were Moses and Elias raised from the dead and then sent back to that state of nothingness? I don't think so. So can any body prove different? I maintain that they are alive today.

Mikecpking · Nov 30, 2011

from scratch said:
But wabbit said they occur when asleep and really left me to believe that is the only time they occur. Really indicating that the disciples were a sleep and really saw nothing. Yet Jesus isn't recorded saying anything about a dream or vision from a stance form. Am I siding with wabbit in this? NO!

Is the subject of the thread visions? NO! How did it come up? I asked about it because of Moses and Elias both having passed from the physical world to what I call an eternal state. Were Moses and Elias raised from the dead and then sent back to that state of nothingness? I don't think so. So can any body prove different? I maintain that they are alive today.

So why did Jesus say "Don't tell this vision to anyone"?

Death is not extinction, the state of the dead, biblically is one of the 'rephaim' im Sheol (Psalm 88:10, Job 3).
The Christian afterlife is the resurrection of the dead, not the immortality of the soul.

What is death?

zeke37

IMO...

JohnRabbit

just trying to understand

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