What is "born of water"

[Danthemailman]

Yes, I see quite clearly how this fits together perfectly.

Apparently you don't.

Just like Paul, when Cornelius and his household believed, even AFTER they received the Holy Spirit just like the apostles did at Pentecost, there was something remaining they apparently needed to do to become Christians.

Water baptism does not cause you to become a Christian, but signifies that you have become a Christian. Believed/received remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit = saved Christian. Water baptism followed their faith and conversion (Acts 10:43-47). So the multitude of verses in the Bible that clearly state we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..) are a lie and are not telling us the whole story? If you can believe that, then you can believe anything!

100% aligned with Mark 16:16 and Matthew 28:19.

Neither of these verses say that "whoever is not water baptized will not be saved." You are reading your won preconceived ideas into these verses. You also appear to be thoroughly indoctrinated.

You can do all the exegetical gymnastics necessary to removed baptism from NT conversion, but it is still there. It will not go away.

You can do all the eisegesis gymnastics necessary to "add" baptism to salvation through faith/NT conversion, but it's still not there. That man is saved through faith "apart from water baptism" will not go away. Salvation is signified, but not procured by water baptism.

 

[Danthemailman]

Right. Got it. That was only necessary for Paul, those at Pentecost, and the armies of people who were lining up to be baptized throughout Acts. The eunuch practically begged to be baptized at the earliest opportunity. Apparently he thought it was pretty important.

Important does not mean absolutely necessary for salvation. I received Christ through faith several years ago on a late Saturday night and knew without a doubt that I had become born again, but was unable to receive water baptism until Sunday morning. I did not remain lost in my sins until I was water baptized on Sunday morning (and neither did these Gentiles until they received water baptism in Acts 10:43-48). I saw water baptism as important and could not wait to receive water baptism, but I am trusting in Christ for salvation and not water baptism. Those who teach salvation by water baptism usually "add other works" to the formula of salvation through faith as well.

 

[112358]

Important does not mean absolutely necessary for salvation. I received Christ through faith several years ago on a late Saturday night and knew without a doubt that I had become born again, but was unable to receive water baptism until Sunday morning. I did not remain lost in my sins until I was water baptized on Sunday morning (and neither did these Gentiles until they received water baptism in Acts 10:43-48). I saw water baptism as important and could not wait to receive water baptism, but I am trusting in Christ for salvation and not water baptism. Those who teach salvation by water baptism usually "add other works" to the formula of salvation through faith as well.

They don't "add other works". They acknowledge and accept the full counsel of God's Word. Those who would deny everything else in scripture associated with conversion except belief deceive themselves and others. James said even the demons believe, and tremble! Surely we don't suggest that they are saved by their belief?

 

[112358]

You guys stick with your "faith alone" false doctrine. I'll stick with Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul, and the whole of NT scripture.

 

[112358]

Water baptism does not cause you to become a Christian, but signifies that you have become a Christian.

Again, not according to Paul. He says that "for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" Galatians 3:27

We become Christians when we are baptized into Him and put Him on through obedient faith to His holy commands. That is when we are in Him and He in us, when He adds us to His body. 100% aligned with NT teachings of Christ, the apostles, and the practices of everyone who was being converted in the early church.

 

[Danthemailman]

They don't "add other works". They acknowledge and accept the full counsel of God's Word. Those who would deny everything else in scripture associated with conversion except belief deceive themselves and others. James said even the demons believe, and tremble! Surely we don't suggest that they are saved by their belief?

The full council of God is NOT salvation through faith + works. Deny everything else associated with conversion? Do you teach the 5 step plan of salvation? 1. Hear 2. Believe 3. Repent 4. Confess 5. Get water baptized then finally saved? That Campbellite five step plan of salvation is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. We can discuss that further if you would like.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God,” but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

You seem to believe that ALL belief/faith is the same “except for the lack of works” and cannot seem to grasp a deeper faith which trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. This also explains why you have so much faith in the “water and works.”

 

[Danthemailman]

Again, not according to Paul. He says that "for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" Galatians 3:27

We become Christians when we are baptized into Him and put Him on through obedient faith to His holy commands. That is when we are in Him and He in us, when He adds us to His body. 100% aligned with NT teachings of Christ, the apostles, and the practices of everyone who was being converted in the early church.

You continue to confuse the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism). Paul clearly said that we are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (.) PERIOD! End of sentence and thought on how we become children of God.

Next sentence, next thought - For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on/clothed yourselves with Christ. The Greek word for "put on" is "enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification."

Just as 1 Corinthians 10:2 says that all (the Israelites) were "baptized into Moses" in the cloud and in the sea, but this does not mean they were literally water baptized into the body of Moses just as we are not literally water baptized into the body of Christ. We are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). *You need to rightly divide the word of truth.

So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. Is Paul saying that we become children of God by water baptism as much as children of God by faith in Christ? NO.

Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light...put on (endue) the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof" (Romans 13:12,14). This exhortation is written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if "put on" Christ means saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts in order to be saved as well (Romans 13:14). Right? NO. *This exhortation is to those ALREADY SAVED.

"Put off," wrote Paul, "the old man," and "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"(Ephesians 4:22,24); And, "put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil" (Ephesians 6:11). *Written to those ALREADY SAVED.

The allusion is to putting off old clothes and putting on new ones, to enclosing oneself in armor, etc. When a soldier puts on a uniform, he is revealing himself to be a soldier and putting on what he has previously been qualified to wear. One does not put on a uniform in order to become a soldier. Simply putting on a soldier's uniform does not make one become a soldier. Once one is made a soldier he is then able to put on and wear the uniform that distinguishes or marks them as a soldier.

Putting on a judge's robe does not, in itself, make anyone a "judge." But, one who has been made a judge is qualified to put on "judicial robes" and thus declare their qualifications.

So too with being water baptized, the Christian puts on robes for which they have previously been qualified to wear. The putting on of Christ is not what makes one become a Christian, but one which becomes a token of it, as in Romans 13:14.

If one puts on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian (child of God through faith), then one becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what they are not.

 

[112358]

The full council of God is NOT salvation through faith + works. Deny everything else associated with conversion? Do you teach the 5 step plan of salvation? 1. Hear 2. Believe 3. Repent 4. Confess 5. Get water baptized then finally saved? That Campbellite five step plan of salvation is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. We can discuss that further if you would like.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God,” but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

You seem to believe that ALL belief/faith is the same “except for the lack of works” and cannot seem to grasp a deeper faith which trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. This also explains why you have so much faith in the “water and works.”

Obedience is not a work. Let that sink in for a while before you respond. I teach the plan of salvation outlined in the NT scriptures, which support all of your "five steps". I would add that scripture also supports remaining faithful unto death (Revelation 2:10). I don't place any more importance on baptism than on any other commandment. I just don't understand why people want to remove everything except "faith", which is not true faith if it removes the other requirements revealed in the inspired Word.

Actually I do know why. They do it so they can justify various unscriptural and many times outright sinful practices and lifestyle choices they like to indulge. Our post-modern "churchianity" culture has convinced most that grace is a license for such behavior, that God will wink and nod at their rebellion and willfulness, but they are wonderfully mistaken, just like Eve was when she was deceived into believing a lie.

 

[Danthemailman]

Obedience is not a work. Let that sink in for a while before you respond.

If obedience is not a work, then what is it? If I feed and clothe the poor is that not a work? According to James it is in James 2:15-16. Is doing so an act of obedience? It certainly is. Am I loving my neighbor as myself in doing so? (Matthew 22:39). Your argument that "obedience is not a work" is a new spin. Those who teach salvation by water and works usually say something like this -- we are saved by "these" works (works of faith/works of obedience etc..) and just not "those" works (works of the law). Interesting.

I teach the plan of salvation outlined in the NT scriptures, which support all of your "five steps". I would add that scripture also supports remaining faithful unto death (Revelation 2:10).

So you teach a 6 step plan of salvation. If Revelation 2:10 teaches that we must be "faithful enough" in addition to placing our faith in Christ for salvation, then just "how faithful would you have to be?" Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "faithful enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? That is vague and could include ANY number of good works. This verse is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. Jesus was not telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" in addition to having faith in Him that they will not receive eternal life. That is salvation by works! The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there! In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9). Unbelievers are not saved, do not overcome and are not faithful at all, let alone unto death. Without faith it's impossible to please God.

I at one time had temporarily attended the church of Christ so I understand how they try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith. After leaving the church of Christ that I had temporarily attended many years ago, I ran into a woman who still attended there and she told me because I no longer attend the church of Christ, I failed to "remain faithful unto death" and won't be saved. Is that how you define be faithful unto death? Continue to attend that church?

I don't place any more importance on baptism than on any other commandment. I just don't understand why people want to remove everything except "faith", which is not true faith if it removes the other requirements revealed in the inspired Word.

If our faith is not trusting 100% in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation and instead we are trusting in a check list of works to save us, then it's not true faith. In regards to your 6 step plan of salvation, of course we must first hear the word/the gospel before we can choose to repent and believe the gospel, at which point we are saved (Acts 11:17,18; Romans 1:16).

In regards to confession, I've heard certain people misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week or next month and then we are finally saved next week or next month, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" from a check list of steps not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

*What I find interesting is that in your 6 step plan of salvation, confession "precedes" baptism and Paul said believes unto righteousness/confession is made unto salvation in Romans 10:10, but according to you, we are not saved until "after" we are water baptized. Better re-adjust that check list.

Actually I do know why. They do it so they can justify various unscriptural and many times outright sinful practices and lifestyle choices they like to indulge.

Our post-modern "churchianity" culture has convinced most that grace is a license for such behavior, that God will wink and nod at their rebellion and willfulness, but they are wonderfully mistaken, just like Eve was when she was deceived into believing a lie.

When all else fails, pull out the straw man card. See 1 John 3:7-10 for the CONTRAST between children of God and children of the devil.

 

[112358]

If obedience is not a work, then what is it? If I feed and clothe the poor is that not a work? According to James it is in James 2:15-16. Is doing so an act of obedience? It certainly is. Am I loving my neighbor as myself in doing so? (Matthew 22:39). Your argument that "obedience is not a work" is a new spin. Those who teach salvation by water and works usually say something like this -- we are saved by "these" works (works of faith/works of obedience etc..) and just not "those" works (works of the law). Interesting.

Now we’re starting to get closer to the real issue at hand. You are correct in that there are many works which are commanded, and doing those things are an act of obedience, and we should do them for without them our faith is dead. But there also things commanded that are not “good works” in the same sense, as they pertain not to our treatment of one another, but to how we come to be members of His body in the first place.

“Faith alone” as it pertains to salvation calls things like repentance and baptism “works”, while at the same time it demands faith/belief. How then is faith/belief not also a “work”? Are we not obeying a command when we believe? By your definition faith itself is a “work”, something we must do in order to be saved, but you outright reject other things we must do as “works”.

It was Jesus Christ who said he who believes and is baptized will be saved, not me. If you could produce one shred of evidence that the baptisms found throughout the book of Acts associated with conversion to Christianity were anything other than immersion in water, I would sign up for “faith alone” with pride. But you can’t because it’s simply not there.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's a reference to baptism.

The imagery and situations in John are full of symbolism and are not meant to necessarily be understood as literal history, but they reflect the early Christian community's understanding of who Jesus was. John frequently has Jesus sermonizing in a way that is very different from the other Gospels. And I believe the encounter with Nicodemus is one such story. Nicodemus comes under the cover of darkness looking for enlightenment, so John has Jesus setting him straight in a way that the early Johanine community could understand the difference between their community, and mainstream Judaism.

 

[Wordkeeper]

It's a reference to God activating a covenant that results in the benefit of John's baptism

Salvation is like a map or a recipe or agreement, you must know what is the end result, end destination, what the final dish will look like, what the benefits of the contract are.

In our faith, the end result is to be a blessing to the world, like Adam was, in working to complete creation. Many people think only about heaven, forgetting about parts of the Bible that emphasise this, the purpose of creation, the breakdown in Adam’s work, and the promise to Abraham to bring the task back on track.

Adam was working with God, because that's the only way he could subdue creation, the only way the wind and the waves could be in submission to him. He could do it because he did not know good from evil, so where there is no law, there is no transgression, and without sin, Adam could be near God. In nature, we see this principle at work: if a bull knocks down a fence, he is without sin. He is acting by instinct.

So to be a blessing, we have to be working with God. Only the pure can see God, be near Him, work with Him, and saved people are IN Christ, so that they can be near God, just like Moses was in the cleft of a Rock and could be near God. To be IN Christ, we need to be born again, because the Bible says only those born again can see the Kingdom, can enter the Kingdom.

Numbers 14:24"But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.

Caleb was born again, has had a different spirit. In the beginning, when God deprived Israel of water, Caleb was probably fearful like the rest of the people, and wanted to go back to Egypt, a state where people served the interest of self for gains that perished, which they first found a relief from hunger, and finally found oppressive, and cried out to God to be rescued from. When Caleb saw God rescue from many more dangers, he became confident in God, trusted Him, so that when he heard God's voice to enter the Promised Land, which needed him to depend on God to fight for him to overcome enemies, he went forward. You see the same change of spirit in Abraham, who was fearful in the beginning and struggled to survive on his own against enemies who tried to kill him because his wife Sarah was so beautiful, and who wanted to possess her. Finally, when Abraham was asked to face another danger, the loss of his son, he trusted God and obeyed, without depending on his own strength to protect himself and his own.

This is the spirit Caleb had been born again into, and because of this he could enter the Promised Land. This is the same spirit we must be born into, to be IN Christ, the real Promised land , of which Canaan is only a type, a metaphor, which brings us near to God, to be blessings to the world.

Romans 8:19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

Let's summarise before we proceed.

Salvation is becoming blessings to the world, by being near to God, by being in Christ, by being born again into the spirit of Caleb, who remembered God's great works to save, and stopped depending on himself, stopped serving mammon.

So we see most of the elements of this in our Christian walk

But where do we see the great works God does in rescuing us?

This is where baptism comes in.

When we are baptised, God activates a contract, either into water or into fire and Spirit, that reveals God's great works, let’s us eat spiritual food, bread from heaven:

1 Corinthians 101 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

John 6:31Our forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness, as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32Jesus said to them,“Truly, truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gaveyou the bread from heaven, but it is My Fatherwho gives you the TRUE bread from heaven.33For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

In other words to see the great works, receive bread from heaven, see a cross picked up and a resurrection, we must be baptised.

Israel was baptised into Moses. Interestingly, “moses” means “drawn from the water” in the Hebrew, and “water” in the Coptic, the language Pharaoh's daughter spoke. So being baptised into Moses is being baptised into being drawn from the water, a symbol that appears many times in the Old Testament, where Noah and his family were drawn out of the water of the Flood, Moses was drawn out of the water by God, and Israel was drawn out of the sea, leaving the sinners behind, to face wrath. We can see baptism into water, being born of the water, means rescue from the wrath of God.

However, we are born of the water and the Spirit.

The Old Covenant of water, into Moses, saved from wrath. But it did not justify, save perfectly, make us blessings to the world. The Old Covenant was a pedagodos, a guardian, a babysitter, until the real parents, Christ and the New Covenant, arrived.

So when we are baptised into water and the Spirit, into the New Covenant, into Christ, we are drawn out of the water, which is the wrath of God upon all other men (who have not recognised the wrong of serving the interests of self for gains that perish, and did not want to serve the interests of god for treasure that lasts), and can eat spiritual food that God provides, crosses and resurrections, can remember these great works of God, and are born again into the spirit of Caleb and abraham, and are admitted into Christ, where we are near God, and can be blessings to the world, by picking up a cross every day, and being bread from heaven for others. Because Joshua never took Israel into the real rest. If he had, David would never have said that there remained a rest to be entered. So today, if you hear God's voice, do not be like Israel of whom it was said that because of their disbelief, remaining in the false security of Egypt, not being born again into the spirit of Caleb and Abraham, for God to declare that Rest is forbidden.

The steps:

Becoming aliens in a life of serving interests of self for gains that perish

Crying out to God for citizenship in a life of serving His interests for treasure that lasts

God is not afraid to be called your God and has prepared a country for you to enter and reveals to you how to enter it, gives you bread from heaven, teaches you the Way, how picking up across results in resurrection through God's great work, after He pulls you out of the water.

Remembering God's great works, Way

Hearing His voice

Moving forward to pick up your cross

Resurrecting into Christ

Coming near to God

Becoming blessings to the world.

 

[Danthemailman]

Now we’re starting to get closer to the real issue at hand. You are correct in that there are many works which are commanded, and doing those things are an act of obedience, and we should do them for without them our faith is dead. But there also things commanded that are not “good works” in the same sense, as they pertain not to our treatment of one another, but to how we come to be members of His body in the first place.

You are not getting any closer to understanding what it means to be saved through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

“Faith alone” as it pertains to salvation calls things like repentance and baptism “works”, while at the same time it demands faith/belief. How then is faith/belief not also a “work”? Are we not obeying a command when we believe? By your definition faith itself is a “work”, something we must do in order to be saved, but you outright reject other things we must do as “works”.

Faith is clearly not a work that merits our salvation. Through faith, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Repentance is not a work that merits our salvation either. We must first repent "change our mind" before we can believe (trust in Christ's finished work of redemption) to save us. Through repentance/faith, Christ is still the OBJECT of our complete trust in receiving salvation.

In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul clearly makes a "distinction" between faith "and" works. So faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works as you would like to believe.

Baptism is a work which "follows" saving faith in Christ (Acts 10:43-47) and if it's absolutely necessary for salvation, then that would add merit on our part for receiving salvation because then we would be saved through faith based on the merits of Christ's finished work of redemption "plus the work of being water baptized."

It was Jesus Christ who said he who believes and is baptized will be saved, not me.

Yes (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. *Where did Jesus say, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned?" The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief.

*NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." That's what happens when you build your doctrine on one half of one verse while ignoring the second half of that verse along with a multitude of other verses that make it clear we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modification." It's called flawed hermeneutics.

It was Jesus who said - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life (John 3:16) *What happened to baptism?

It was also Jesus who said - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18) *What happened to baptism?

So if water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in John 3:16 and John 3:18 along with John 3:15; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

If you could produce one shred of evidence that the baptisms found throughout the book of Acts associated with conversion to Christianity were anything other than immersion in water, I would sign up for “faith alone” with pride. But you can’t because it’s simply not there.

What's simply not found in the book of Acts is salvation by water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 26:18) and just because water baptism is associated with conversion to Christianity as a sign, symbol does not mean that baptism is absolutely required for salvation.

*Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the sign/symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no sign/symbol/picture.

*Baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to salvation through faith in Christ as all rites and works must be. Baptism is for believers, and believers are already saved, for the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not by rites or religious works, or good works etc.. This does not remove good works/acts of obedience (including water baptism) from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation.

In order to sign up for salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone (not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - barren of works - James 2:14) you will need to repent (change your mind) about trusting in water and works for salvation and place your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in JESUS CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION.

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for those who trust in works for salvation to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to receive Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

 

[112358]

In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul clearly makes a "distinction" between faith "and" works. So faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works as you would like to believe.

I said that obedience is not a work. I agree that faith/belief is not a work. Neither is repentance. You are the one that assigns "work" to baptism. So again, "faith alone" demands some things we must do (believe and repent) while at the same time rejecting others...some found right in the very same verse! (Mark 16:16).

It was also Jesus who said - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18) *What happened to baptism?

I acknowledge and accept all the verses you have quoted where baptism is not specifically mentioned. Let's review those again where it is and we'll be speaking in terms of the whole counsel of God's Word:

Mark 16:16 He that believes and is baptized will be saved
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
John 3:5 Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God
Luke 3:21 When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized
Acts 2:38 Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...
Acts 2:41 Then those that gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them
Colossians 2:12 buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God
Galatians 3:27 for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Romans 6:3 or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ were baptized into His death?
1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us - baptism (not the removal of filth from the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God)...

I can review the dozen or so conversions in Acts where baptism by immersion in water is administered again if needed, but I don't think it will matter.

Jesus did it and commanded it. The apostles took that command and carried it out. They were baptizing everyone in sight. Peter commanded it for the remission of sins at Pentecost, the birth of the NT church, and said that it "now saves us". Paul did it to "wash away" his sins and wrote at length about how it is through baptism that we enter into the likeness of His death, where we are united with Him, where we "put Him on". He did this repeatedly. WHY IS THIS SO HARD???

The Word of God speaks for itself. I'm about done here.

 

[Danthemailman]

I said that obedience is not a work. I agree that faith/belief is not a work. Neither is repentance.

Through repentance/faith, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Changing our mind and choosing to receive Christ through faith/believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is not a work that merits our salvation.

You are the one that assigns "work" to baptism. So again, "faith alone" demands some things we must do (believe and repent) while at the same time rejecting others...some found right in the very same verse! (Mark 16:16).

Baptism is a work which follows repentance/faith/conversion (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18). In Matthew 3:13-15, we read - Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?" But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. *Baptism is clearly a "work of righteousness" and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5).

I already explained Mark 16:16 to you, yet you insist isolating the first half of Mark 16:16 and building your doctrine on it, while ignoring the second half of the verse and also ignoring what Jesus said in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). These passages in John say that everyone who "believes in Him" will be saved. It does not merely say that believing in Him is one of many things required in order to be saved. It does not leave open such an interpretation of the passage. None of those passages in John leaves room for "additional requirements" that follow.

I acknowledge and accept all the verses you have quoted where baptism is not specifically mentioned. Let's review those again where it is and we'll be speaking in terms of the whole counsel of God's Word:

If you acknowledged and accepted all the verses that I quoted about salvation through belief/faith "with no mention of baptism" then you would render those verses as "incomplete" and feel the need to "patch together" your so called gospel plan using your pet verses.

Mark 16:16 He that believes and is baptized will be saved

- *general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized* - but he who does not believe will be condemned. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Hermeneutics.

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

We have here a command from Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize converts. However, it does not say here that baptism is necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. Getting water baptized does not magically make you become a disciple. Choosing to become a disciple of Christ is a heart decision that is made prior to receiving water baptism.

John 3:5 Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God

See post #54 - What is "born of water"

Luke 3:21 When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized

And? I can't name one believer that I know who has refused to be water baptized, yet they were still saved through faith in Christ, prior to receiving water baptism.

Acts 2:38 Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...

See post #64 - What is "born of water"

Acts 2:41 Then those that gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them

Those who gladly received this word (saved through repentance/faith) were "afterwards" baptized.

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism?

Colossians 2:12 buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by immersing the new believer in and out of the water.

Galatians 3:27 for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

See post #87 - What is "born of water"

Romans 6:3 or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ were baptized into His death?

See post #61 - What is "born of water"

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us - baptism (not the removal of filth from the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God)... - See posts #61 & #75.

I can review the dozen or so conversions in Acts where baptism by immersion in water is administered again if needed, but I don't think it will matter.

I can mention over a dozen conversions in Acts where baptism is NOT mentioned, but I don't think it will matter.
4:4
5:14
9:35
9:42
11:21
11:24
Chapters 13 and 14 -- Paul's first journey -- baptism not mentioned.
13:12
13:43
13:48
14:1
14:21
14:27
17:4
17:12
17:34
19:17-20
28:23, 24

Jesus did it and commanded it. The apostles took that command and carried it out. They were baptizing everyone in sight.

Yet neither Jesus or the apostles ever once said, "whoever is not water baptized will not be saved," so your arguments are moot.

Peter commanded it for the remission of sins at Pentecost, the birth of the NT church, and said that it "now saves us".

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. *So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

Paul did it to "wash away" his sins and wrote at length about how it is through baptism that we enter into the likeness of His death, where we are united with Him, where we "put Him on". He did this repeatedly. WHY IS THIS SO HARD???

Baptism did not literally wash away Paul's sins. Only the blood of Christ can do that. So how did baptism "wash away" Paul's sins? Well, it couldn't do this literally, for Christ literally "put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Hebrews 9:26). The language in Acts 22:16 is similar to the statement of Christ when He took the bread and said, "This is my body" (Matthew 26:26). The bread was only the emblem of His body. Baptism is the emblem of the washing away of sins by the death of Christ. Every time a believer is immersed he washes away his sins in the same sense Paul did: not literally, but ceremonially, pointing to the death of Christ by which sins were actually washed away.

Greek Scholar A.T. Robertson explains: As in Romans 6:4-6 where baptism is the picture of death, burial and resurrection, so here baptism pictures the change that had already taken place when Paul surrendered to Jesus on the way. Baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. - Acts 22:16 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Our sins are already literally washed away by the blood of Christ when we BELIEVE before water baptism (Romans 3:24-26; Acts 10:43-47). Therefore to take Paul's statement in Acts 22:16 as anything more than a metaphor is to confuse the symbolic rite with what the rite represents.

You make it so hard by CONFUSING THE PICTURE WITH THE REALITY. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin (verse Colossians 1 ), forwards to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave (F. B. Meyer). There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality. - Romans 6:4 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

The Word of God speaks for itself. I'm about done here.

Yes, the word of God does speak for itself (Luke 8:12; 24:47; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:39; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..). You seem to be thoroughly indoctrinated, yet I still hope and pray that something I shared with you will at least plant a seed that one day will be watered and open your eyes to the truth.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Through repentance/faith, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Changing our mind and choosing to receive Christ through faith/believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is not a work that merits our salvation.

Wrong. Changing of mind is changing from clinging to the poor security offered by serving the interests of Egypt for gains that perish, to serving the interests of God for treasure that lasts, even though it involves picking up crosses, because God has shown His ability to resurrect.

Baptism is a work which follows repentance/faith/conversion (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18). In Matthew 3:13-15, we read - Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?" But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. *Baptism is clearly a "work of righteousness" and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5).

The objection to works of the law is to works performed to link the doer to Abraham, what Jesus called minor points of the Law, which needed to be done without leaving out the weightier matters of the law, justice, mercy and faithfulness in the Old Covenant, and which needed to be left out in the New Covenant because they prevented believers from enjoying the benefits of being in Christ of the New Covenant.

I already explained Mark 16:16 to you, yet you insist isolating the first half of Mark 16:16and building your doctrine on it, while ignoring the second half of the verse and also ignoring what Jesus said in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). These passages in John say that everyone who "believes in Him" will be saved. It does not merely say that believing in Him is one of many things required in order to be saved. It does not leave open such an interpretation of the passage. None of those passages in John leaves room for "additional requirements" that follow.

Baptism is one of the steps, of which none can be left out, in the process of being complete, justified, the Good News that the Old Covenant could not promise.

1. Becoming aliens in a life of serving interests of self for gains that perish
   
   
2. Crying out to God for citizenship in a life of serving His interests for treasure that lasts
   
   
3. God is not afraid to be called your God and has prepared a country for you to enter and reveals to you how to enter it, gives you bread from heaven, teaches you the Way, how picking up across results in resurrection through God's great work, after He pulls you out of the water.
   
   
4. Remembering God's great works, the Way.
   
   
5. Hearing His voice.
   
   
6. Moving forward to pick up your cross.
   
   
7. Resurrecting into Christ.
   
   
8. Coming near to God.
   
   
9. Becoming blessings to the world.

If you acknowledged and accepted all the verses that I quoted about salvation through belief/faith "with no mention of baptism" then you would render those verses as "incomplete" and feel the need to "patch together" your so called gospel plan using your pet verses.

See above.

- *general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized* - but he who does not believe will be condemned. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Hermeneutics.

This is step 2 in the process.

We have here a command from Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize converts. However, it does not say here that baptism is necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. Getting water baptized does not magically make you become a disciple. Choosing to become a disciple of Christ is a heart decision that is made prior to receiving water baptism.

Choosing to become a disciple of Christ is a decision that is made after having the spirit of Caleb, being convinced God can help in defeating the enemy, all your links to serving interests of self, the tower that comes between you and entering the Promised Land, Rest, Christ

See post #54 - What is "born of water"

Being born of water is being born into the covenant of changing from serving the interests of self to serving the intersts of God.

And? I can't name one believer that I know who has refused to be water baptized, yet they were still saved through faith in Christ, prior to receiving water baptism.

You can’t leave out any step in the process to have the benefit of the New Covenant.

See post #64 - What is "born of water"

Remission of sin happens when you are in Christ, because only the pure can see God, and you can see God if you are in the Cleft of the Rock.

Those who gladly received this word (saved through repentance/faith) were "afterwards" baptized.


Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism?

All were baptised. They just had to walk through the water.

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by immersing the new believer in and out of the water.

Justification is by faith, the New Covenant, not works, the Old Covenant. The teaching being criticised is Judaising, not obedience to the commands by Christ, baptism being also commanded.

See post #87 - What is "born of water"

Born of water is being born of repentance. Born of Christ is being born of fire and the Holy Spirit, life, energising, empowerment, completion.

See post #61 - What is "born of water"

Signifying the cross, the sacrifice of leaving the serving of the interests of self, for treasure that perishes, death, to receive the treasure that lasts, resurrection.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us - baptism (not the removal of filth from the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God)... - See posts #61 & #75.

Not a physical bath, but of good spiritual standing through repentance.

I can mention over a dozen conversions in Acts where baptism is NOT mentioned, but I don't think it will matter.

4:4

5:14

9:35

9:42

11:21

11:24

Chapters 13 and 14 -- Paul's first journey -- baptism not mentioned.

13:12

13:43

13:48

14:1

14:21

14:27

17:4

17:12

17:34

19:17-20

28:23, 24

Well if you are baptised into John’s baptism, Christ will not be of any benefit to you. Baptism into fire and the Holy Spirit is the only way the New Covenant is activated in your life.


Jesus did it and commanded it. The apostles took that command and carried it out. They were baptizing everyone in sight.

Yet neither Jesus or the apostles ever once said, "whoever is not water baptized will not be saved," so your arguments are moot.

Logical fallacy of argument from silence. Paul rebaptized the believers in Acts 19 for remission of sin. This teaches that baptism is important. It enables the benefits of the New Covenant to be enjoyed by believers.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. *So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Even if the crowd included those who were baptised by John’s baptism of repentance, the latter still needed to be baptised into Christ for remission of sins, because the text teaches that only Christ could save from sin.

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).


*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

Water is the filter. Those who lived lives serving the interests of self were drowned. The fact that the water did not affect Noah proves that he was found righteous, had served the interests of God. God confirmed that the Way was acceptable, by raising Christ. Our appeal is that our faith, loyalty to Christ, placed us in Christ, for a similar benefit.

Baptism did not literally wash away Paul's sins. Only the blood of Christ can do that. So how did baptism "wash away" Paul's sins? Well, it couldn't do this literally, for Christ literally "put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Hebrews 9:26). The language in Acts 22:16 is similar to the statement of Christ when He took the bread and said, "This is my body" (Matthew 26:26). The bread was only the emblem of His body. Baptism is the emblem of the washing away of sins by the death of Christ. Every time a believer is immersed he washes away his sins in the same sense Paul did: not literally, but ceremonially, pointing to the death of Christ by which sins were actually washed away.


Greek Scholar A.T. Robertson explains: As in Romans 6:4-6 where baptism is the picture of death, burial and resurrection, so here baptism pictures the change that had already taken place when Paul surrendered to Jesus on the way. Baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. - Acts 22:16 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament


Our sins are already literally washed away by the blood of Christ when we BELIEVE beforewater baptism (Romans 3:24-26; Acts 10:43-47). Therefore to take Paul's statement in Acts 22:16 as anything more than a metaphor is to confuse the symbolic rite with what the rite represents.


You make it so hard by CONFUSING THE PICTURE WITH THE REALITY. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin (verse Colossians 1 ), forwards to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave (F. B. Meyer). There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality. - Romans 6:4 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

The apostles announced the Good News, the coming into effect of the New Covenant, which could save from sin, unlike the Old Covenant, but which had to be enjoyed only by an additional baptism.

Yes, the word of God does speak for itself (Luke 8:12; 24:47; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:39; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..). You seem to be thoroughly indoctrinated, yet I still hope and pray that something I shared with you will at least plant a seed that one day will be watered and open your eyes to the truth.

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

See above.[/quote]

 

[112358]

Through repentance/faith, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Changing our mind and choosing to receive Christ through faith/believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is not a work that merits our salvation.

Baptism is a work which follows repentance/faith/conversion (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18). In Matthew 3:13-15, we read - Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?" But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. *Baptism is clearly a "work of righteousness" and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5).

I already explained Mark 16:16 to you, yet you insist isolating the first half of Mark 16:16 and building your doctrine on it, while ignoring the second half of the verse and also ignoring what Jesus said in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). These passages in John say that everyone who "believes in Him" will be saved. It does not merely say that believing in Him is one of many things required in order to be saved. It does not leave open such an interpretation of the passage. None of those passages in John leaves room for "additional requirements" that follow.

If you acknowledged and accepted all the verses that I quoted about salvation through belief/faith "with no mention of baptism" then you would render those verses as "incomplete" and feel the need to "patch together" your so called gospel plan using your pet verses.

- *general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized* - but he who does not believe will be condemned. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Hermeneutics.

We have here a command from Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize converts. However, it does not say here that baptism is necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. Getting water baptized does not magically make you become a disciple. Choosing to become a disciple of Christ is a heart decision that is made prior to receiving water baptism.

See post #54 - What is "born of water"

And? I can't name one believer that I know who has refused to be water baptized, yet they were still saved through faith in Christ, prior to receiving water baptism.

See post #64 - What is "born of water"

Those who gladly received this word (saved through repentance/faith) were "afterwards" baptized.

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism?

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by immersing the new believer in and out of the water.

See post #87 - What is "born of water"

See post #61 - What is "born of water"

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us - baptism (not the removal of filth from the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God)... - See posts #61 & #75.

I can mention over a dozen conversions in Acts where baptism is NOT mentioned, but I don't think it will matter.
4:4
5:14
9:35
9:42
11:21
11:24
Chapters 13 and 14 -- Paul's first journey -- baptism not mentioned.
13:12
13:43
13:48
14:1
14:21
14:27
17:4
17:12
17:34
19:17-20
28:23, 24

Yet neither Jesus or the apostles ever once said, "whoever is not water baptized will not be saved," so your arguments are moot.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. *So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

Baptism did not literally wash away Paul's sins. Only the blood of Christ can do that. So how did baptism "wash away" Paul's sins? Well, it couldn't do this literally, for Christ literally "put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Hebrews 9:26). The language in Acts 22:16 is similar to the statement of Christ when He took the bread and said, "This is my body" (Matthew 26:26). The bread was only the emblem of His body. Baptism is the emblem of the washing away of sins by the death of Christ. Every time a believer is immersed he washes away his sins in the same sense Paul did: not literally, but ceremonially, pointing to the death of Christ by which sins were actually washed away.

Greek Scholar A.T. Robertson explains: As in Romans 6:4-6 where baptism is the picture of death, burial and resurrection, so here baptism pictures the change that had already taken place when Paul surrendered to Jesus on the way. Baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. - Acts 22:16 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Our sins are already literally washed away by the blood of Christ when we BELIEVE before water baptism (Romans 3:24-26; Acts 10:43-47). Therefore to take Paul's statement in Acts 22:16 as anything more than a metaphor is to confuse the symbolic rite with what the rite represents.

You make it so hard by CONFUSING THE PICTURE WITH THE REALITY. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin (verse Colossians 1 ), forwards to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave (F. B. Meyer). There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality. - Romans 6:4 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Yes, the word of God does speak for itself (Luke 8:12; 24:47; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:39; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..). You seem to be thoroughly indoctrinated, yet I still hope and pray that something I shared with you will at least plant a seed that one day will be watered and open your eyes to the truth.

I've lost track of all the contradictions here. Let me see if I have this straight:

Because there are examples of conversions in Acts where baptism is not specifically mentioned, we should throw out all of the others where it is specifically mentioned. Because Jesus didn't say "he who does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned", we should throw out the part where He says "he who believes and is baptized will be saved". Is there some circumstance under which a non-believer would ever be baptized? One under which a non-believer would repent? The qualification is unnecessary because it doesn't make plain old common sense.

If I use your method of "properly harmonizing scripture with scripture", then every example of a conversion in Acts must specifically mention repentance because that is a requirement that accompanies true faith and salvation. Yet there are many conversions where repentance is not specifically mentioned. Will you apply the same treatment to repentance that you do to baptism? I suspect not. I suspect in the case of repentance you would suggest that it is implied, even when not specifically mentioned, because there is a wealth of supporting scriptural evidence found elsewhere stating as much. That would be "properly harmonizing scripture with scripture".

Once again this doctrine demands some things associated with salvation (belief/repentance) and outright rejects others as "works". I'm still sticking with Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul, and whole counsel of God's Word.

 

[Greg J.]

You think, then, that when asked about how to be saved, it was critical for Jesus to explain that you have to be here, to exist, in order to have a shot at salvation?

My own view is that Nicodemus already knew that much about the matter.

Re: What is "born of water"

FYI,

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Peter 3:21, 1984 NIV)

In this verse water is reference to a response to God of commitment of a good conscience to Him, which I interpret to mean accepting Him as Lord from one's heart. That could be understood as what the bottom line is of water baptism.

I think any suggestion of what water refers to must also fit its use in this verse:

This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. (1 John 5:6-8, 1984 NIV)

I haven't yet studied this as I would like to.

 

[Albion]

Re: What is "born of water"

FYI,

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Peter 3:21, 1984 NIV)

In this verse water is reference to a response to God of commitment of a good conscience to Him, which I interpret to mean accepting Him as Lord from one's heart. That could be understood as what the bottom line is of water baptism.

There is plenty of symbolism in water, that's true. But this doesnt mean that the sacrament which uses water is just a gesture on our part and the meaning purely symbolic--far from it, as we see when we consult all the verses that speak of baptism.

John Gill, in his exposition on this verse, says this:

"Christ only is the cause and author of eternal salvation; and as those only that were in the ark were saved by water, so those only that are in Christ, and that are baptized into Christ, and into his death, are saved by baptism; not everyone that is baptized, but he that believeth, and is baptized, shall be saved, ( Mark 16:16 )…."

 

[Wolf_Says]

Jesus says to Nicodemus in his dialogue about being born again from John 3 "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

What is "born of water"

The text seems to contrast the flesh and the spirit, natural birth and spirit birth and keeping with these contrasts water would represents the flesh or the natural (compare v5 with v6). Water is traditionally considered part of the birthing experience and this perspective lends itself to expressions like "water breaking". The "water" is amniotic fluid and the "breaking" is the amniotic sac rupturing but we still call it "water" and so did ancient cultures.

But when Jesus says "water" could he mean water baptism instead? He doesn't clarify and the word baptism is never used. Water baptism is still a part of a natural experience that anyone could do regardless of their belief. If Jesus means water baptism it could still represent the flesh side as it is something the flesh engages in and administers and it uses natural devices. Jesus may be saying it's not just baptism but it also needs to be of the Spirit so one can be born again.

But if it's water baptism is this an example of Jesus requiring it along with the spirit to be born again? or does the "water" represent only fleshly devices inherent in our humanity so long as we are born into this world and seek the spirit?

Water Baptism.

Mark 16:16