What is biblical truth when there is no consensus?

[Jipsah]

Explain.

I reckon it means what He said.

You probably have a different interpretation.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Sounds like your position implies that we cant really know anything perfectly but remain subject to relative truth.

Scripture does not support this position because we read that "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free..."

The anointing within bears witness to the Truth by the gift of revelation.

I guess it depends on how you define perfectly, my position is God is infinite and thus anything we use to define him always comes up short. An example of this is -God is love- no matter how we explain this or come up with words to describe this we will always come up short because God being infinite will alway be bigger and greater than anything we come up with otherwise he is not infinite. Can we know enough about God that we can follow him in ,our sin infected mortal existence, yes that’s what we have scripture for when correctly translated and understood we can know what we need to know for our time in this age. To my thinking that’s not perfect exhaustive knowledge but it’s what we need in this age. Our real learning comes in the next age when we are done with our sin nature and have a new forever body and mind , even then we will still be learning of who God is and we will be ever conforming ourselves to him, 1 billion years from now we will still be learning.

 

[Aaron112]

However, I find it no easier to live my life according to the simple facts of the Bible that 99% of Christians agree.

Realizing we are daily at war, serious life and death war,

did you think it would get "easier to live" ?

 

[Jonaitis]

I reckon it means what He said.

You probably have a different interpretation.

What is your interpretation?

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Realizing we are daily at war, serious life and death war,

What a strange statement. From where and whom does it come?

 

[Carl Emerson]

I guess it depends on how you define perfectly, my position is God is infinite and thus anything we use to define him always comes up short. An example of this is -God is love- no matter how we explain this or come up with words to describe this we will always come up short because God being infinite will alway be bigger and greater than anything we come up with otherwise he is not infinite. Can we know enough about God that we can follow him in ,our sin infected mortal existence, yes that’s what we have scripture for when correctly translated and understood we can know what we need to know for our time in this age. To my thinking that’s not perfect exhaustive knowledge but it’s what we need in this age. Our real learning comes in the next age when we are done with our sin nature and have a new forever body and mind , even then we will still be learning of who God is and we will be ever conforming ourselves to him, 1 billion years from now we will still be learning.

Just to confirm, the fundamentals of the faith are to be known in this life without question. However the depth of that knowledge in the next life has no end of knowing.

Regeneration, however is a little different, through Grace and obedience we become more like Jesus in nature in this life until we are resurrected when we shall be like Him. So I don't see regeneration continuing in the next life.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So those who disagree with me are just those last 4 kinds of folks. I've always suspected that.

We all need to be open to correction which may come from imperfect human beings surprisingly...

 

[Jipsah]

What is your interpretation?

It means what He said.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

God's biblical Truth

Jesus is the Truth John 14:6
All His commandments are Truth Psa 119:151
His Word is Truth John 17:17

 

[Jerry N.]

Realizing we are daily at war, serious life and death war,

did you think it would get "easier to live" ?

I wasn’t under any misconceptions about life getting easier. I am just saying that the majority of things Christians agree about in the Bible are hard enough to internalize, and the things that Christians don’t agree on have become less significant. There are many simple Christians that don’t worry about the details that live exemplary Christian lives.

 

[Clare73]

So,.... you place your bible in between GOD and you and force Him to speak through it?

I don't think you really do.

The Holy Spirit is involved in every aspect of our lives, so revelation can certainly be outside of scripture. We are to be guided by Him, not our bibles.

All subjective personal revelation must be measured against the word of God written, for man is fallen and can be deceived.

 

[Carl Emerson]

All subjective personal revelation must be measured against the word of God written, for man is fallen and can be deceived.

Yes - and without God given discernment we are vulnerable even with the Bible as a reference.

 

[Johan2222]

Please excuse me for avoiding your question directly, but questions about unity where Christ taught there would be division raise some important issues of our time, (Matthew 24.12).

Matthew 10:34-41 KJV
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. [35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. [36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. [37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. [38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. [39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. [40] He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. [41] He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

The sword is the double edged sword of the word which has probably generated more division amongst mankind than anything else that has ever been.

Once you hear it, you immediately become one of the four seeds Matthew 13.3 and seeing few fall on the good soil, the tares rapidly outdo the wheat.

Satan always comes as an angel of light and even babes in Christ are able to see the darkness in unbelief but to find it in belief requires the mind of Christ, which only comes by love, for love is the bond of perfection. Colossians 3:14.

Therefore Christ warned us saying;

Matthew 6:23 KJV
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

To ask; “What is biblical truth when there is no consensus”, will be interpreted in many unbelievers minds as;

“Can there be any truth in Christianity seeing they are all so divided amongst themselves?”

Have you not heard that question over and over again from unbelievers and believers of different religions?

What you ask is a stumbling block to unbelievers to open their minds and hearts to the truth we preach.

What you teach is a stumbling block to sound doctrine saying;

“Worst case, they attempt to end the discussion by claiming that your argument is not with them. Basically, playing the “God card”.

Have you not read?

Titus 3:10-11 NKJV
Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, [11] knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

And what if I say to you, “I am the righteous chosen one of God, but you can call me John,” will you not question my wisdom even if I say it in jest?

The question that you ask only promotes division and has no answer that has not been provided and explained by Christ in a mystery, knowing that to do so openly only causes more division and stumbles unbelievers.

But will you tell me what this means?

Matthew 13:52 KJV
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

You say it is the worst case scenario to reject false doctrine, but do you not remember what Paul’s opening instruction was, just before he told us to reject divisive men and the reason he gave for it?

Titus 3:9 KJV
But avoid foolish questions, . . . .for they are unprofitable and vain.

First Timothy instructed one so in twenty of five, but do you think I shall be received in the days they have heaped to themselves teachers who teach them what they wish to hear?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Please excuse me for avoiding your question directly, but questions about unity where Christ taught there would be division raise some important issues of our time, (Matthew 24.12).

Matthew 10:34-41 KJV
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. [35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. [36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. [37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. [38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. [39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. [40] He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. [41] He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

The sword is the double edged sword of the word which has probably generated more division amongst mankind than anything else that has ever been.

Once you hear it, you immediately become one of the four seeds Matthew 13.3 and seeing few fall on the good soil, the tares rapidly outdo the wheat.

Satan always comes as an angel of light and even babes in Christ are able to see the darkness in unbelief but to find it in belief requires the mind of Christ, which only comes by love, for love is the bond of perfection. Colossians 3:14.

Therefore Christ warned us saying;

Matthew 6:23 KJV
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

To ask; “What is biblical truth when there is no consensus”, will be interpreted in many unbelievers minds as;

“Can there be any truth in Christianity seeing they are all so divided amongst themselves?”

Have you not heard that question over and over again from unbelievers and believers of different religions?

What you ask is a stumbling block to unbelievers to open their minds and hearts to the truth we preach.

What you teach is a stumbling block to sound doctrine saying;

“Worst case, they attempt to end the discussion by claiming that your argument is not with them. Basically, playing the “God card”.

Have you not read?

Titus 3:10-11 NKJV
Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, [11] knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

And what if I say to you, “I am the righteous chosen one of God, but you can call me John,” will you not think that I am a proud fool, even if I say it in jest?

The question that you ask only promotes division and has no answer that has not been provided and explained by Christ in a mystery, knowing that to do so openly only causes more division and stumbles unbelievers.

But will you tell me what this means?

Matthew 13:52 KJV
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

You say it is the worst case scenario to reject false doctrine, but do you not remember what Paul’s opening instruction was, just before he told us to reject divisive men and the reason he gave for it?

Titus 3:9 KJV
But avoid foolish questions, . . . .for they are unprofitable and vain.

First Timothy instructed one so in twenty of five, but do you think I shall be received in the days they have heaped to themselves teachers who teach them what they wish to hear?

Thanks for that it was well thought out. I happen to take a different view from history than you do , or you have not studied the early history of the church. I mean by early the first 300 years not the reformation which most see as early church history. I went to 4 years of a conservative Bible College and our early church history was from the reformation on not much prior to that. I have been studying what the church believed for the first couple hundred years or so and am trying to go back to the roots of what the early church fathers taught. If you look into the beginning of the church there were 6 what we would call schools 4 taught what I have been saying , what we call Christian Universal Redemption, 1 taught ECT, 1 taught annihilation , they didn’t all read scripture the same way but they believed it was not something to divide over. The school that taught ECT was the one Augustine came from and he himself admitted that “ many believe that God would save all , they are too gentle hearted but do not deny scripture “ that was a paraphrase from my memory not a direct quote but it’s close. Before Augustine most Christians were not divided but he was the one that started the divide, he didn’t read Greek and used Latin instead and he had a bad Latin translation to read from. I listened to a talk Michael Heiser gave on Augustine using a bad Latin translation and that’s why he came up with some bad or wrong ideas. He made ECT the only doctrine to be official and broke unity with all who disagree. Justinian and Constantine also cemented this idea into making Christianity the official religion and all who opposed were run off marginalized or even killed. Much of the early writings from the fathers were destroyed , enough of them have survived so we can piece together what they taught. This history is debated and many debates have been had over it . So it is those who come from that tradition, which I grew up in for 50+ years that are the ones bringing division not those who follow Christian Universal Redemption, we are not the ones calling others who follow the other 2 traditions heretical we are calling for unity. Do I believe that the other two traditions are wrong, yes, but it’s not worth dividing over. Obviously I can’t and don’t speak for all in this camp , but most who I have listened to and talked with want unity not division but we are not the one’s being divisive. I understand how hard it is to take a long hard look at the tradition that we hold but if it’s that fragile then maybe there is a problem. My God is not threatened by anything, and it’s easier for us to have unity because we see all humanity as part of the body of Christ, some know it now the rest will understand in the next age. If you believe in ECT , which is fear based and you think that your will is stronger than Jesus sacrifice, and if you get something wrong you go to a place that God is going to torture you for ever and you never get a chance to repent then yes I would be afraid because who is correct there are hundreds of denominations that all say we have the way to heaven. But it’s not about heaven or hell it’s about the Trinity wanting to share their love that they have had for all eternity with their creation and this process that has been going on for over 6000 years is the best way for God to get what he says he either wills or desires and that is 1Tim 2:3-6 “ This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who will/ desires that all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.” That’s Gods plan , that’s what he wants Jer 32:27 “I am Yahweh, God of all flesh. Is anything to difficult for me?” We believe that is Gods plan why would he create a world that he must torture most of humanity for eternity listening to the screams and pain for all eternity when he says that’s not what he wants? Well he didn’t, this is what I believe and I make no apologies about it. So do I want unity yes but it is not our camp that is causing the division, we are trying to go back to the unity that was there before this tradition that has caused the divisions.

 

[Johan2222]

Thanks for that it was well thought out. I happen to take a different view from history than you do , or you have not studied the early history of the church. I mean by early the first 300 years not the reformation which most see as early church history. I went to 4 years of a conservative Bible College and our early church history was from the reformation on not much prior to that. I have been studying what the church believed for the first couple hundred years or so and am trying to go back to the roots of what the early church fathers taught. If you look into the beginning of the church there were 6 what we would call schools 4 taught what I have been saying , what we call Christian Universal Redemption, 1 taught ECT, 1 taught annihilation , they didn’t all read scripture the same way but they believed it was not something to divide over. The school that taught ECT was the one Augustine came from and he himself admitted that “ many believe that God would save all , they are too gentle hearted but do not deny scripture “ that was a paraphrase from my memory not a direct quote but it’s close. Before Augustine most Christians were not divided but he was the one that started the divide, he didn’t read Greek and used Latin instead and he had a bad Latin translation to read from. I listened to a talk Michael Heiser gave on Augustine using a bad Latin translation and that’s why he came up with some bad or wrong ideas. He made ECT the only doctrine to be official and broke unity with all who disagree. Justinian and Constantine also cemented this idea into making Christianity the official religion and all who opposed were run off marginalized or even killed. Much of the early writings from the fathers were destroyed , enough of them have survived so we can piece together what they taught. This history is debated and many debates have been had over it . So it is those who come from that tradition, which I grew up in for 50+ years that are the ones bringing division not those who follow Christian Universal Redemption, we are not the ones calling others who follow the other 2 traditions heretical we are calling for unity. Do I believe that the other two traditions are wrong, yes, but it’s not worth dividing over. Obviously I can’t and don’t speak for all in this camp , but most who I have listened to and talked with want unity not division but we are not the one’s being divisive. I understand how hard it is to take a long hard look at the tradition that we hold but if it’s that fragile then maybe there is a problem. My God is not threatened by anything, and it’s easier for us to have unity because we see all humanity as part of the body of Christ, some know it now the rest will understand in the next age. If you believe in ECT , which is fear based and you think that your will is stronger than Jesus sacrifice, and if you get something wrong you go to a place that God is going to torture you for ever and you never get a chance to repent then yes I would be afraid because who is correct there are hundreds of denominations that all say we have the way to heaven. But it’s not about heaven or hell it’s about the Trinity wanting to share their love that they have had for all eternity with their creation and this process that has been going on for over 6000 years is the best way for God to get what he says he either wills or desires and that is 1Tim 2:3-6 “ This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who will/ desires that all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.” That’s Gods plan , that’s what he wants Jer 32:27 “I am Yahweh, God of all flesh. Is anything to difficult for me?” We believe that is Gods plan why would he create a world that he must torture most of humanity for eternity listening to the screams and pain for all eternity when he says that’s not what he wants? Well he didn’t, this is what I believe and I make no apologies about it. So do I want unity yes but it is not our camp that is causing the division, we are trying to go back to the unity that was there before this tradition that has caused the divisions.

Long before Augustine, God revealed the imitators (as angels of light) that would go out from us, fathered by Satan and sent forth in sheep‘s clothing, of whom God said;

John 8:44 KJV
Ye are of your father the devil. . .

1 John 2:18-20 KJV
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. [19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. [20] But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Those who are not of the children of God are not of God, but God shall certainly save all his own.

There will therefore indeed be a universal redemption of all God‘s children, but the children of the prince, sown among the wheat shall follow their father to his end, where the lake awaits him.

Matthew 7:14,19 KJV
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. [19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Long before Augustine, God revealed the imitators (as angels of light) that would go out from us, fathered by Satan and sent forth in sheep‘s clothing, of whom God said;

John 8:44 KJV
Ye are of your father the devil. . .

1 John 2:18-20 KJV
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. [19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. [20] But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Those who are not of the children of God are not of God, but God shall certainly save all his own.

There will therefore indeed be a universal redemption of all God‘s children, but the children of the prince, sown among the wheat shall follow their father to his end, where the lake awaits him.

Matthew 7:14,19 KJV
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. [19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Ok I will respond to the idea that all are not Gods children. John 17:2 “ You gave him (Jesus) authority over ALL FLESH ( not sum but all) that to all whom you (God) have given Him, He may give eternal life.” Now the question is how much has God given Jesus? John 13:3 “ The Father had given ALL THINGS ( not a few but all) into his (Jesus) hands “ So no the devil is not the creator of any people, Jesus was using metaphor to make a point, they were following the enemy not him. Just like scripture says “ the hand of God” God does not have a hand , he is Spirit , but it’s used to show something not for us to think God has a hand. As far as the Matt 7 passage it’s not talking about heaven or “hell” it’s talking about this time on earth. We know from scripture that when one accepts Jesus, we cross over from death to life , now not in the future. Few there are that find this , most are still in death and that leads to destruction. This is about the here and now. Jesus knows we have to spend time on earth in our mortal body, the more people who follow him the better our time down here will be. He has the saving thing covered by his death, but most of the world’s problems , other than natural disasters, are from those who don’t follow Christ and rape, kill , steal, and destroy, so the more who follow Christ the better our time in this mortal body will be.

 

[RDKirk]

Some present their views as if they themselves are an authority on biblical interpretation.

Worst case, they attempt to end the discussion by claiming your argument is not with them.
Basically, playing the "God card".

Do we leave no room for the interpretations brought by others? Showing intolerance.

What is biblical truth when there is no consensus?

There is consensus where consensus is needed, as far as consensus is needed.

In Romans 14, Paul points out that there are validly disputable matters and matters that are beyond dispute. But contrary to the thinking of many, the matters beyond dispute is a much smaller set than the validly disputable matters. MOST of the things in dispute are actually irrelevant.

IMO, the matters beyond dispute are encapsulated in the Nicene and Apostle's Creeds, and there is great consensus on these matters:

Belief in God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit as different Persons of one Substance.
The Father as Creator.
The Son’s true, genuine, physical, and actual incarnation, suffering, death, resurrection, and ascension.
The Holy Spirit’s active and continuing operation in the Body of Christ.
The unity and communion of the Body of Christ
Forgiveness of sins.
Resurrection of the dead.
Everlasting life.

Even a couple of them can be understood differently at the present time. As long as they are accepted in some way...the correct understanding will be brought to light in the fullness of time.

I consider anyone who can assent to all those points to be a fellow Christian, even if we quibble a bit over exactly what each means and how it's implemented. I can have a difference of opinion with a Roman Catholic about what "communion of the saints" fully means, as long as we both agree that there is such a thing, and we agree that when it's completely explained in the fullness of time, we will both be surprised by how limited our understanding had actually been.

 

[Johan2222]

I consider anyone who can assent to all those points to be a fellow Christian

What a man assents to, is by itself no measure of his standing.

There are even demons who concede to those points and many believers who profess them all shall hear the words;

Matthew 7:23 KJV
. . .I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

James 2:26 KJV
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

What a man assents to, is by itself no measure of his standing.

There are even demons who concede to those points and many believers who profess them all shall hear the words;

Matthew 7:23 KJV
. . .I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

James 2:26 KJV
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What a man assents to, is by itself no measure of his standing.

There are even demons who concede to those points and many believers who profess them all shall hear the words;

Matthew 7:23 KJV
. . .I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

James 2:26 KJV
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Does not James 4 tell us not to judge our neighbors? It says who are you to judge, that’s Gods job .

 

[Clare73]

God's biblical Truth

Jesus is the Truth John 14:6
All His commandments are Truth Psa 119:151
His Word is Truth John 17:17

The words of his apostles are truth (Lk 10:16).