What is biblical truth when there is no consensus?

Saint Steven · Dec 29, 2022

Michael Collum said:
I get the sense that we don't read the bible, the way the writers of the bible read it, especially Jesus.

Yes. And even the word "writers" is a bit of a misnomer. Most are collected and edited writings.
The books in the NT canon were voted in. And Protestants leave out the Apocryphal canon.
Leaving us to ask, "What is the Bible?"

Michael Collum said:
Jesus today would have been accused of prooftexting, but the pharisees had no such concern or rebuttal.

Yes, interesting. In those days the questions were more important than the answers.

Michael Collum said:
They perceived things so differently, the main flaw with biblical interpretation and consensus is that we lack the proper context. The proper context is not available to us, some pastors sell the idea that they can know, but it's just a sales pitch.

Agree. And I think most teachers mean well. (been there, done that) But it can get... to be some sort of sport to play. Win, win, win!

Michael Collum said:
It is written, even in the bible, that we should study to be approved. However, when there is no consensus as to what the correct interpretation is, it just ends up being an exercise in people pleasing.

Yup. Most peoples hackles are raised if they haven't heard it from their church pulpit. (must be wrong)

2PhiloVoid · Dec 29, 2022

Saint Steven said:
There is this idea that there is only one... (at the risk of accusations of Relativism) biblical "truth".
Even the Bible writers misquoted the scriptures to make a point. What's your take?

Although it wasn't asked for, my answer to this question would echo some aspects of Peter Enns' thoughts on "New Testament misquotes."

Of course, it would also pinball off of, and consider, the views about a dozen other complimentary and competing theologians/biblical hermeneuticists as well.

Clare73 · Dec 30, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Some present their views as if they themselves are an authority on biblical interpretation.

Worst case, they attempt to end the discussion by claiming your argument is not with them.
Basically, playing the "God card".

Do we leave no room for the interpretations brought by others? Showing intolerance.

What is biblical truth when there is no consensus?

There is concensus on what is salvific. . .

concretecamper · Dec 30, 2022

sandman said:
But if you have biblical proof of the transubstantiation (transubstantiating), I would not only change my mind, I would change my practice. I left myself open because I just have not seen it in the Word of God

It's there in John 6 and the Last Supper narrative. Now you may not agree with me, but that just brings you back to the original poster's claim about consensus.

Jesus is YHWH · Jan 10, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Does the Holy Spirit - who represents Truth and was given to be a comforter and guide - no longer indwell believers ?

Of course He does what makes you think otherwise ?

Carl Emerson · Jan 11, 2023

Jesus is YHWH said:
Of course He does what makes you think otherwise ?

Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit within us is silent today ???

You said this...

Jesus is YHWH said:
I believe Jesus teaching that the Holy Spirit would lead you into all truth and bring to remembrance everything I have taught you was primarily applicable to the disciples/Apostles who wrote the bible, not for us.

Please explain...

Saint Steven · Jan 11, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit within us is silent today ???

Good question, Carl.
His sheep hear his voice and follow. Sheep.
And...

Acts 2:17-18 NIV
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.

Jesus is YHWH · Jan 11, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit within us is silent today ???

You said this...

Jesus is YHWH said:
I believe Jesus teaching that the Holy Spirit would lead you into all truth and bring to remembrance everything I have taught you was primarily applicable to the disciples/Apostles who wrote the bible, not for us.

Please explain...

No I'm saying we are not the Apostles who would write Scripture and Jesus said would remind them (not us ) of everything He had told them and taught them by bringing it to remembrance. We do not know all truth and have been guided into all truth. Scripture is the truth. If believers could know all truth there would be no denominations, no differences of opinions with doctrines and we would all hold to the unity of the faith. We would not be debating on a forum .

Guojing · Jan 11, 2023

Jesus is YHWH said:
No I'm saying we are not the Apostles who would write Scripture and Jesus said would remind them (not us ) of everything He had told them and taught them by bringing it to remembrance. We do not know all truth and have been guided into all truth. Scripture is the truth. If believers could know all truth there would be no denominations, no differences of opinions with doctrines and we would all hold to the unity of the faith. We would not be debating on a forum .

Good point, this is the classic picture to go back to whenever anyone wonders why the other is not interpreting scripture the way he does.

Soyeong · Jan 11, 2023

Saint Steven said:
Some present their views as if they themselves are an authority on biblical interpretation.

Worst case, they attempt to end the discussion by claiming your argument is not with them.
Basically, playing the "God card".

Do we leave no room for the interpretations brought by others? Showing intolerance.

What is biblical truth when there is no consensus?

In Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth, so it is biblical truth even when there is no consensus.

Saint Steven · Jan 11, 2023

Soyeong said:
In Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth, so it is biblical truth even when there is no consensus.

Good comment, thanks.

Even in the Torah there is no consensus. Even Jesus knew this. Scripture below.
Discussion was more important than trying to determine "absolute truth".
Does that make sense? There will always be differences of opinion. (no consensus)

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

Saint Steven · Jan 11, 2023

Soyeong said:
In Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth, so it is biblical truth even when there is no consensus.

A few more thoughts on this.

Why would there be Experts in the Law if there was consensus on what it meant?
And didn't the Pharisees and Sadducees have differences?

Akita Suggagaki · Jan 17, 2023

Saint Steven said:
Some present their views as if they themselves are an authority on biblical interpretation.

Worst case, they attempt to end the discussion by claiming your argument is not with them.
Basically, playing the "God card".

Do we leave no room for the interpretations brought by others? Showing intolerance.

What is biblical truth when there is no consensus?

Boy don't we ever try our hardest to fit God into our own particular understanding. It is no wonder that Jesus often used parables cast out for those who could hear. I think we must always make room for many levels of meaning and many possibilities of interpretation.

Sabertooth · Jan 17, 2023

Saint Steven said:
What is biblical truth when there is no consensus?

Jesus said that we won't always be able to distinguish between a Tare & a Wheat, so consensus (with that in mind) is of little value.
We are also told that sanctification is convergent [John 14:26, 1 John 3:2], so we may even disagree with real brothers & sisters along the way.
With the two caveats above, I am still able to find believers that are on the same page, so that is where I fellowship.

Those who disagree with me because of #2 are still Saved.
Those who disagree with me because of #1 are not (at least, not yet).

Saint Steven · Jan 18, 2023

Sabertooth said:
Jesus said that we won't always be able to distinguish between a Tare & a Wheat, so consensus (with that in mind) is of little value.

We are also told that sanctification is convergent [John 14:26, 1 John 3:2], so we may even disagree with real brothers & sisters along the way.

With the two caveats above, I am still able to find believers that are on the same page, so that is where I fellowship.

Those who disagree with me because of #2 are still Saved.
Those who disagree with me because of #1 are not (at least, not yet).

I agreed with you until you got to your last sentence. Therefore I must not be saved. (yet) - LOL

No worries. Everyone is already saved. Christ has ALREADY paid our death penalty for sin on the cross. (paid in full)

Sabertooth · Jan 18, 2023

Saint Steven said:
I agreed with you until you got to your last sentence.

Tares, by definition, are unSaved impostors.

Saint Steven · Jan 18, 2023

Sabertooth said:
Tares, by definition, are unSaved impostors.

Perhaps I misunderstood.
It seemed that you were saying that those who disagree with you (because of #1) aren't saved. (yet)

Sabertooth said:
Jesus said that we won't always be able to distinguish between a Tare & a Wheat, so consensus (with that in mind) is of little value.

We are also told that sanctification is convergent [John 14:26, 1 John 3:2], so we may even disagree with real brothers & sisters along the way.

With the two caveats above, I am still able to find believers that are on the same page, so that is where I fellowship.

Those who disagree with me because of #2 are still Saved.
Those who disagree with me because of #1 are not (at least, not yet).

fhansen · Jan 18, 2023

Saint Steven said:
Some present their views as if they themselves are an authority on biblical interpretation.

Worst case, they attempt to end the discussion by claiming your argument is not with them.
Basically, playing the "God card".

Do we leave no room for the interpretations brought by others? Showing intolerance.

What is biblical truth when there is no consensus?

Pretty much everyone acts as if their particular interpretation is infallibly true while denying that they’d ever hold such a position regarding their views. I’ve come to appreciate the historic positions, as outlined by the ECFs or early church beliefs and practices. And we’re impacted by the past more than we often know in our faith even when we don’t realize it. Either way many reject others as infidels when they disagree with their own particular beliefs.

Sabertooth · Jan 18, 2023

Saint Steven said:
Perhaps I misunderstood.
It seemed that you were saying that those who disagree with you (because of #1) aren't saved. (yet)

By definition, Tares only pretend to be Christians so they might undermine Christianity. They are wolves in sheep's clothing.
It is often hard to tell the difference between them and real Christians who "just have not gotten the memo, yet."

Jeff Saunders · Jan 18, 2023

When I was in Bible college we were taught that all truth is Gods truth. Consensus does not equal truth. What I see is the biggest problem is that Yahweh is infinite and we are finite onsur brains can’t understand infinite especially with the fall and our sin nature. It’s like trying to teach a dog to do a calculus equation just because the dog can’t do it doesn’t make it not true. We have the Bible but even it says we see as though through a glass dimly , and it’s written from an infinite God to finite people. So Yahweh has had to take infinite concepts and explain them in finite terms. For example Jesus is not the son of God , God did not have sex with a celestial wife and out came Jesus. But in the Jewish mind a first born son was equal to the father so that was a relationship that they could understand. So when you have a infinite idea and then have it written in three different languages many different cultures over many years no wonder there is not much consensus. But everything we need to know about Yahweh is in there for us to discover and live a life that is pleasing to him. Is it an exhaustive compilation on everything that Yahweh is and has done and ever will do ? No Yahweh cannot be contained in a book. There will never be complete consensus till we see Jesus face to face , then we shall know even as we are known.

What is biblical truth when there is no consensus?

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