What is Abortion?

[truefiction1]

Life itself is potentially fatal. It doesn't give us license to come up with our own commandments, but follow God's.

I do not believe all abortion will ever be outlawed.

I listened to Chris Matthews debate Bishop Tobin of Rhode Island when he told Patrick Kennedy to not receive Holy Communion.
Matthews asked the Bishop if he had the druthers and was a member of Congress, would he write a law banning all abortions ? The Bishop immediately said yes. Matthews then asked him what the penalty would be for women who obtain an abortion, would they be sent to jail ? The Bishop could not answer and only said that he didn't have the expertise to answer that question. Matthews then said, but Bishop, you're telling a member of Congress how to write such a penalty for women.

There should be some sort of appropriate penalty to serve as a deterent, no?

 

[Laconia79]

These cases are rare. They are the exception, not the norm. Why use exceptions to set the precedent for normal practice? Only dishonest peoples do this.

Yeah the odds today are 1 in 5000. The other problems like depression after giving birth, you know I was gonna make a list but I am to tired everyone knows how to use google.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There should be some sort of appropriate penalty to serve as a deterent, no?

If you're going to make a law outlawing abortion then yes there has to be a penalty
for those who break the law. What should that penalty be ? Will we see women
thrown in jail for breaking the abortion laws ?

I'm pro-life, but I'm not naive. Congress critters will not write a law to
ban all abortions. They will punish doctors who perform late term abortions
after viability, but they will not punish the women who obtain the abortions.

 

[Laconia79]

If you're going to make a law outlawing abortion then yes there has to be a penalty
for those who break the law. What should that penalty be ? Will we see women
thrown in jail for breaking the abortion laws ?

I'm pro-life, but I'm not naive. Congress critters will not write a law to
ban all abortions. They will punish doctors who perform late term abortions
after viability, but they will not punish the women who obtain the abortions.

Jim viability is around 5/6 months. With medical help a fetus can survive at the point. It is also the time when the parts of the brain that feels pain and consciousness are formed. There are few doctors who would even consider do an abortion at that point for any reason other medical. And there are even fewer woman. Most abortions happen in the first 2 to 3 months. They fall into many categories, health, financial stability, victims of rape and incest. I notice many Christians wanting viability to be about 12 weeks. Just because the heart is beating does not make it viable. The earliest I every heard of a early birth surviving was like 23 weeks. Needless to say the child did not have long happy life. But a 16 year old girl gets pregnant can not take care of the baby financially. Or the rare cases of women in there late 50s getting pregnant and choosing to abort cause of the risk of the baby having serious medical problems. Now many Christians want to incest they should carry to term. Tell me how many of you good Christians are gonna take of the baby. If a 59 year old woman gives birth to a baby with severe mental retardation are you gonna take care of it. Well its happened and in most cases the child ends up spending there life in a state run facility. I have worked in those place, the abuse and neglect is horrible there and the mentally handicapped have it the worst. I lasted 3 months and I quit and reported them and nothing happened. Oh and god help the mentally disabled who are not vegetables and have enough mental awareness to survive an inadvertently break the law and go to prison and that happens to. You want to know what happens to a adult with the mind of 12 year old who goes to prison, rape neglect abuse and normally death. Our system of justice does not differentiate between age or mental acuity. We got teenagers as young as 14 being sentenced to life. And there sentenced to adult prison. Oh there separated but the predator's still get to them.

 

[Laconia79]

These cases are rare. They are the exception, not the norm. Why use exceptions to set the precedent for normal practice? Only dishonest peoples do this.

This is not about the unborn child it is about Christians wanting to make them selves feel better about themselves and enforce there moral beliefs on those who do not believe. They do this cause deep down a good number of theme are hypocrites and they know it. They go to church on Sunday and the rest of the week they lie cheat an talk bad about there bosses or neighbors or rip there employees off. And there not going to heaven, saying a prayer and going to church on Sundays does not get you heaven you have to walk the walk. You can not pick and chose which parts of the bible fit your narrow life views. Love the lord your god and love your neighbor, those are two most important commandments and all the rest fall into it. And very few people do that. As for abortion it is a medical procedure done for multiple reasons many justifiable. There are very few doctors and and fewer woman who would do a late term abortion for anything less than serious medical reason. Most abortion happen in the first 2/3 months. long before the fetus has consciousness or an ability to feel pain cause that part of the brain does not start forming until 5/6 months into the pregnancy and most woman who go that long carry to term.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim viability is around 5/6 months. With medical help a fetus can survive at the point. It is also the time when the parts of the brain that feels pain and consciousness are formed. There are few doctors who would even consider do an abortion at that point for any reason other medical. And there are even fewer woman. Most abortions happen in the first 2 to 3 months. They fall into many categories, health, financial stability, victims of rape and incest. I notice many Christians wanting viability to be about 12 weeks. Just because the heart is beating does not make it viable. The earliest I every heard of a early birth surviving was like 23 weeks. Needless to say the child did not have long happy life. But a 16 year old girl gets pregnant can not take care of the baby financially. Or the rare cases of women in there late 50s getting pregnant and choosing to abort cause of the risk of the baby having serious medical problems. Now many Christians want to incest they should carry to term. Tell me how many of you good Christians are gonna take of the baby. If a 59 year old woman gives birth to a baby with severe mental retardation are you gonna take care of it. Well its happened and in most cases the child ends up spending there life in a state run facility. I have worked in those place, the abuse and neglect is horrible there and the mentally handicapped have it the worst. I lasted 3 months and I quit and reported them and nothing happened. Oh and god help the mentally disabled who are not vegetables and have enough mental awareness to survive an inadvertently break the law and go to prison and that happens to. You want to know what happens to a adult with the mind of 12 year old who goes to prison, rape neglect abuse and normally death. Our system of justice does not differentiate between age or mental acuity. We got teenagers as young as 14 being sentenced to life. And there sentenced to adult prison. Oh there separated but the predator's still get to them.

My son was born at 27 weeks in Boston Women's Hospital, which merged to become Brigham and Women's Hospital. I saw, 24 week twins survive, but they were girls who do better than boys. My son was the sickest preemie to survive back in 1981 in that hospital. He does have cerebral palsy which effects his walking, but mentally he's above average. He also has hydrocephalies because of his premature birth. He's 41 years of age now.

I mention all of this because I have the experience of seeing viable infants who survived.
Currently, infants born earlier than 21 weeks, the doctors will do nothing to help save the
child, because technically, there is nothing they can do.

That all being said, it's still human life, whether viable or not. However, members of Congress are not going to write a law banning abortions before viability, it's politically not doable. They could never come up with a penalty phase put into the law and get it passed in the House and Senate.

Most abortions are done at 12 according to the Guttmacher Institute, which is a study group used
by the abortion industry and most are done because the pregnancy is unwanted, not because of medical necessity.

In the Catholic Church, a direct abortion is when the doctor must kill the unborn fetus, either through a saline solution which is injected into the womb, or by dissecting the fetus inside the
womb and the removing the parts. My aunt was a surgical tech who was pro-choice until she assisted in a 2nd trimester abortion and saw the baby's body parts removed from the mother.
She said it was murder. A direct abortion is illicit and an intrinsic moral evil according to Church teaching. However, an indirect abortion, that is when the fetus is removed through other procedures out of necessity, is licit according to Church teaching.

I know there are babies born with physical deformities and problems. That doesn't give justification
for killing them directly.

In Oxford U in England, there are those who support "post- birth abortion." That is, when a child is born with physical problems that the parents feel they are incapable of providing economically and emotionally to the child, the law would allow them to have a doctor euthanize the child. We could be heading down that path if abortions are allowed because of physical deformities that the parents feel are too burdensome. As I understand it, babies born with Down=syndrome in Holland
are almost nonexistent because parents can abort such babies after amniocentesis shows that the fetus will be born with Down-syndrome.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

This is not about the unborn child it is about Christians wanting to make them selves feel better about themselves and enforce there moral beliefs on those who do not believe. They do this cause deep down a good number of theme are hypocrites and they know it. They go to church on Sunday and the rest of the week they lie cheat an talk bad about there bosses or neighbors or rip there employees off. And there not going to heaven, saying a prayer and going to church on Sundays does not get you heaven you have to walk the walk. You can not pick and chose which parts of the bible fit your narrow life views. Love the lord your god and love your neighbor, those are two most important commandments and all the rest fall into it. And very few people do that. As for abortion it is a medical procedure done for multiple reasons many justifiable. There are very few doctors and and fewer woman who would do a late term abortion for anything less than serious medical reason. Most abortion happen in the first 2/3 months. long before the fetus has consciousness or an ability to feel pain cause that part of the brain does not start forming until 5/6 months into the pregnancy and most woman who go that long carry to term.

That's a judgement towards Christians which is flawed. Most Christians oppose abortions not to
make themselves feel better, but because they know it's a human life and needs to be protected.

 

[truefiction1]

This is not about the unborn child it is about Christians wanting to make them selves feel better about themselves and enforce there moral beliefs on those who do not believe. They do this cause deep down a good number of theme are hypocrites and they know it. They go to church on Sunday and the rest of the week they lie cheat an talk bad about there bosses or neighbors or rip there employees off. And there not going to heaven, saying a prayer and going to church on Sundays does not get you heaven you have to walk the walk. You can not pick and chose which parts of the bible fit your narrow life views. Love the lord your god and love your neighbor, those are two most important commandments and all the rest fall into it. And very few people do that. As for abortion it is a medical procedure done for multiple reasons many justifiable. There are very few doctors and and fewer woman who would do a late term abortion for anything less than serious medical reason. Most abortion happen in the first 2/3 months. long before the fetus has consciousness or an ability to feel pain cause that part of the brain does not start forming until 5/6 months into the pregnancy and most woman who go that long carry to term.

It's not about that. It's about "God is Love", Who's commandment "Thou shall not kill" is given us with great wisdom and Love.

 

[Laconia79]

That's a judgement towards Christians which is flawed. Most Christians oppose abortions not to
make themselves feel better, but because they know it's a human life and needs to be protected.

Yeah at the expense of the woman. Pregnancy is dangerous it does damage a woman's body 1 in 5000 woman still die from it. More deal with depression and suicide after. It means it has to be a woman choice to carry or not. A human needs to be protected. Okay millions of people have cancer and need marrow transplant or someone needs and organ transplant. We put 10s of millions of people with viable organs into the ground each year. So tell me what would be your reaction or I should say the Christian rights reaction to ordering every person who dies in the hospital to donate there organs, actually I believe that has been tried and people fought it like the devil. Millions of people die each year because there denied organs that could easily be found if there was a law insisting the donation or our organs at death. Those number are much higher than abortion. Yet I have never seen the Christian right out there fighting that fight.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yeah at the expense of the woman. Pregnancy is dangerous it does damage a woman's body 1 in 5000 woman still die from it. More deal with depression and suicide after. It means it has to be a woman choice to carry or not. A human needs to be protected. Okay millions of people have cancer and need marrow transplant or someone needs and organ transplant. We put 10s of millions of people with viable organs into the ground each year. So tell me what would be your reaction or I should say the Christian rights reaction to ordering every person who dies in the hospital to donate there organs, actually I believe that has been tried and people fought it like the devil. Millions of people die each year because there denied organs that could easily be found if there was a law insisting the donation or our organs at death. Those number are much higher than abortion. Yet I have never seen the Christian right out there fighting that fight.

Who's expense should killing another human being be on ?

1 in 5000 women die from child birth ? WOW that certainly justifies killing
another human being right ?

Being single, unless you have children of your own, you probably have no idea what the blessing a child brings to a mother and father.

 

[truefiction1]

Yeah at the expense of the woman. Pregnancy is dangerous it does damage a woman's body 1 in 5000 woman still die from it. More deal with depression and suicide after. It means it has to be a woman choice to carry or not. A human needs to be protected. Okay millions of people have cancer and need marrow transplant or someone needs and organ transplant. We put 10s of millions of people with viable organs into the ground each year. So tell me what would be your reaction or I should say the Christian rights reaction to ordering every person who dies in the hospital to donate there organs, actually I believe that has been tried and people fought it like the devil. Millions of people die each year because there denied organs that could easily be found if there was a law insisting the donation or our organs at death. Those number are much higher than abortion. Yet I have never seen the Christian right out there fighting that fight.

Seems like a lot of projection to me. Some Christians are the most charitable people in the world. Many of them are, while other people who are selfish and do about nothing for strangers simply accuse everyone else, especially Christians, of being hypocritical just because they teach against killing.

 

[chad kincham]

until very recently a fetus was not considered a human being h.

Asians consider a newborn to already be 1 year old at birth. Obviously they think human life begins at conception.

Pagan Greeks even believed abortion was wrong - the original Hippocratic oath barred physicians from aborting.

Our founding fathers - the guys who wrote the constitution - considered the unborn to have the same god-given-and-thus-inalienable right to LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as already born people.

Roe v Wade ruled that they didn’t know when life begins, so were guessing it was at the third trimester, and allowed abortion until then.

Today however, the medical science of embryology states that life begins at conception/fertilization, therefore Roe v Wade should be overturned and let each state determine their own abortion laws - the way it’s supposed to be, anyway.

 

[SkyWriting]

Are there any in here who would like to present a case for abortion, refuting the notion that it is (in the majority of cases) the communal practice of child sacrifice for the sake of worldly benefits?

I'd argue that it's a procedure that is rarely repeated more than once.
So it's not a "communal practice of child sacrifice" that is connected to society influences at all.
I know I wouldn't enjoy it, and if other guys had done it, that wouldn't have made me more interested in the procedure. Like, seeing people covered in tattooes or with pins in their face doesn't draw me to the procedure.

 

[truefiction1]

I'd argue that it's a procedure that is rarely repeated more than once.
So it's not a "communal practice of child sacrifice" that is connected to society influences at all.
I know I wouldn't enjoy it, and if other guys had done it, that wouldn't have made me more interested in the procedure. Like, seeing people covered in tattooes or with pins in their face doesn't draw me to the procedure.

Since the so-called procedure is sanctioned by the civil authorities, and since it happens all the time (not rarely) and actually is repeatedly done by some people, I don't see how it isn't what I believe it to be.

 

[SkyWriting]

Since the so-called procedure is sanctioned by the civil authorities, and since it happens all the time (not rarely) and actually is repeatedly done by some people, I don't see how it isn't what I believe it to be.

How many people do you know who had more than one abortion?
Compare that to how many you know who had just one.

 

[SkyWriting]

Since the so-called procedure is sanctioned by the civil authorities...

And we should?

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

1 Peter 2:18-20
Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

1 Peter 2:13
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. ...

 

[SkyWriting]

Are there any in here who would like to present a case for abortion...

The Bible says that local government is God's Will for mankind.

Jesus made a point of this at his trial and crucifixion, specifically.

 

[truefiction1]

The Bible says that local government is God's Will for mankind.

Jesus made a point of this at his trial and crucifixion, specifically.

The empire arrested and executed people for worshipping Christ. Christians were anti-abortion at that time also.

 

[truefiction1]

And we should?

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

1 Peter 2:18-20
Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

1 Peter 2:13
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. ...

If leaders make it legal to commit murder, then it's our duty to God to disobey them.

 

[truefiction1]

How many people do you know who had more than one abortion?
Compare that to how many you know who had just one.

What difference would it make even if everyone who had an abortion only had one? One child sacrificed is one child sacrificed.