What is Abortion?

[truefiction1]

The meaning of the word word murder has always been very specific and never what the Church says it is throughout the history of the English language. You can condemn abortion all you want to, but calling it a murder is nothing but a blatant lie if you know what the word murder means.

You can call abortion inhumane. You can call it evil. You can call it horrible. You can call it a sin. But if you know the 14th Amendment and the meaning of the word murder, you can't call lit that.

I thought that murder is the unlawful, premeditated killing of one human being by another human being.

 

[truefiction1]

Including fetuses. I can't remember the verse, but the Bible says under a certain condition someone must rip a pregnant woman's abdomen open and remove her fetus. So God is not 10% against all abortions for completely healthy women with completely healthy offspring.

The verse you're referring to is in the Book of Hosea. But, did God not also send the flood that destroyed all inhabitants of the earth besides Righteous Noah and his household? What does God's righteous judgment, which sometimes was carried out by warriors of evil nations, have to do with a person choosing to kill someone? The answer is "nothing". When it comes to us killing our own sons and daughters, God does not command this. In fact, God says that to do this is an abomination. Does He not command "Thou shall not kill"? Can we not see the distinction between people being slain on account of Divine providence, and people being slain because they are breaking God's command of "Thou shall not kill"?

 

[truefiction1]

no it doesn't


no, it does not.


that is defined in the law it is amending.

false

False. Again you need to read the actual legislation.

I think you have been listening to far too much propaganda

I've very recently read the legislation, and the actual legislation is entirely vague enough to allow for abuses, which will certainly take place.

 

[truefiction1]

so was interracial marriage. so what?

Nothing against interracial marriage, but so was marijuana, because being high all the time is bad for us. Now it is being legalized for recreational use. Do you see the societal trend here?

 

[truefiction1]

references?

The Didache is one of the earliest Christian works, contemporary with some of the New Testament writings; it was probably composed around the year 100 A.D. It condemns what it also calls pharmakeia and goes on to say, "You shall not slay the child by abortion. You shall not kill what is generated."

The Epistle of Barnabas contains similar language, and Clement of Alexandria associates the destruction of the fetus with the destruction of love for humanity. Tertullian condemned abortion, and in the second century, a Christian answered anti-Christian allegations that Christians engaged in human sacrifice: "How can we kill a man when we are those who say that all who use abortifacients are homicides, and will account to God for their abortions as for the killing of men? For the fetus in the womb is not an animal."

Some modern defenders of abortion argue, wrongly, that Christian opposition to abortion is relatively new. They point out that ancient and medieval Christian writers made distinctions between the "formed" and "unformed" fetus, the time before and after "quickening" when some believed the soul entered the unborn child. Their assumption is that this distinction made early abortion--before "quickening"--acceptable.

Although these distinctions can be found in the writings of Sts. Jerome and Augustine, and in the writings of such later Roman Catholic theologians as Thomas Aquinas, they were never understood as offering permission for early abortions. St. Basil explicitly rejected the distinction between the formed and unformed fetus as beside the essential point. St. John Chrysostom attacked married men who encouraged prostitutes and mistresses to abort. "You do not let a harlot remain only a harlot, but make her a murderess as well."

Finally, it is important to realize the profound significance of the fact that we celebrate the feasts of the conception of the Theotokos and the conception of John the Forerunner--in addition to the Annunciation, which is the feast of Jesus' conception.

 

[truefiction1]

Hosea 13:16 GOd commands " They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open

God is merely saying that this is going to happen to Samaria because of their guilt. I don't see anywhere that God is commanding anyone to do it. Warriors of evil nations would often engage in genocide in those times. There were particular war mythologies that nations ascribed to which gave them the religious or moral justification for carrying out such slaughters. Do we behave according to what we experience in the Old Testament narratives, or are we the children of the New Testament in Jesus Christ? The Jesus that I'm familiar with loved children. He commands "Suffer the little children come unto me". What, do we feel, would He feel about a choice to slay one of these little ones in the womb, for any selfish reason? Is Christ selfish? Does He do His own will, or does He do the will of the One Who sent Him? When we slay one of these little ones, whose will are we doing?

 

[SilverBear]

The verse you're referring to is in the Book of Hosea. But, did God not also send the flood that destroyed all inhabitants of the earth besides Righteous Noah and his household? What does God's righteous judgment, which sometimes was carried out by warriors of evil nations, have to do with a person choosing to kill someone? The answer is "nothing". When it comes to us killing our own sons and daughters, God does not command this. In fact, God says that to do this is an abomination. Does He not command "Thou shall not kill"? Can we not see the distinction between people being slain on account of Divine providence, and people being slain because they are breaking God's command of "Thou shall not kill"?

thou shall not kill your child.....unless they are not listening to the priests Deut 17:12
...unless they are Wiccan Exo 22:17
...unless they are gay Lev 20:13
...unless that child got into a fight with his/her father Exo 21:15
...unless that child swears at mom Prv 20:20
...unless or dad Lev20:9
...unless they belong to another religion exo 22:19
...unless he/she is an atheist 2 Chronicles 15:12-13
...unless your daughter is not a virgin Deut 22:20:21
...unless your kid is a brat 2 Kings 2:23-24
...unless they are the child of a sinner Isaiah 14:21

 

[SilverBear]

I've very recently read the legislation, and the actual legislation is entirely vague enough to allow for abuses, which will certainly take place.

but it doesn't say any of the things you claimed

 

[SilverBear]

Nothing against interracial marriage

But until very recently it was illegal in the United States so by your logic is must have been and must still be had

 

[SilverBear]

The Didache is one of the earliest Christian works, contemporary with some of the New Testament writings; it was probably composed around the year 100 A.D. It condemns what it also calls pharmakeia

the creation and use of drugs. Its enough to give you a headache but apparently you can't take an aspirin for that headache.

and goes on to say, "You shall not slay the child by abortion. You shall not kill what is generated."

Actually it says: (οὐ φονεύσεις τέκνον ἐν φθορᾷ οὐδὲ γεννηθέντα ἀποκτενεῖς).“You shall not murder a child in destruction nor shall you kill one just born” (οὐ φονεύσεις τέκνον ἐν φθορᾷ οὐδὲ γεννηθέντα ἀποκτενεῖς). It is difficult to tell what a "child in destruction" is exactly. its the Greek word
phtoeora which best translates as decaying or diseased.

 

[truefiction1]

the creation and use of drugs. Its enough to give you a headache but apparently you can't take an aspirin for that headache.

Actually it says: (οὐ φονεύσεις τέκνον ἐν φθορᾷ οὐδὲ γεννηθέντα ἀποκτενεῖς).“You shall not murder a child in destruction nor shall you kill one just born” (οὐ φονεύσεις τέκνον ἐν φθορᾷ οὐδὲ γεννηθέντα ἀποκτενεῖς). It is difficult to tell what a "child in destruction" is exactly. its the Greek word
phtoeora which best translates as decaying or diseased.

I trust the Orthodox translators to know what was meant in the text, thank you.

thou shall not kill your child.....unless they are not listening to the priests Deut 17:12
...unless they are Wiccan Exo 22:17
...unless they are gay Lev 20:13
...unless that child got into a fight with his/her father Exo 21:15
...unless that child swears at mom Prv 20:20
...unless or dad Lev20:9
...unless they belong to another religion exo 22:19
...unless he/she is an atheist 2 Chronicles 15:12-13
...unless your daughter is not a virgin Deut 22:20:21
...unless your kid is a brat 2 Kings 2:23-24
...unless they are the child of a sinner Isaiah 14:21

What part of "God is revealed most truly and perfectly in the Son (New Testament)" did you miss when I said it the first time? You're citing Old Testament verse upon Old Testament verse to show us what sort of God we have. It just doesn't work like that. If you want to see God, you look at Christ. If you want to see how God sees children, you've got to look at how Christ saw them and how He treated them. Interpret the Old Testament with the Light of the New, please.

 

[SilverBear]

I trust the Orthodox translators to know what was meant in the text, thank you.

What part of "God is revealed most truly and perfectly in the Son (New Testament)" did you miss when I said it the first time? You're citing Old Testament verse upon Old Testament verse to show us what sort of God we have. It just doesn't work like that. If you want to see God, you look at Christ. If you want to see how God sees children, you've got to look at how Christ saw them and how He treated them. Interpret the Old Testament with the Light of the New, please.

I'm reminded of when my children were young and didn't like what they were being told they would cover their ears and announce:"I can't hear you."

 

[truefiction1]

I'm reminded of when my children were young and didn't like what they were being told they would cover their ears and announce:"I can't hear you."

I can't really define where you're coming from. You seem to be promoting abortion and claiming that it's because God is someone that He's clearly not, based on reading the Old Testament with more or less a complete disregard for New Testament revelation. I've rarely seen anything like it. You seem to be saying that it's okay to abort fetuses, and kill children, because God Himself did it and allowed it in the Old Testament.

 

[Laconia79]

Elective abortion is called "murder" by members of the pro-life community, and worse still, is claimed by some to be the modern equivalent of "child sacrifice" as practiced in ancient pagan (demonic) religious cultures by some members of the Christian Church.

I've pondered this matter at great length, and have spent some time searching the web for any Christian, scholarly or Theological presentations on this question that present a case that abortion is "not child sacrifice". The only opposition to this notion seems to come from people commenting in forums whose statements and arguments seem to me to bear out a fundamental lack of Scriptural knowledge or anything resembling Spiritual knowledge.

Are there any in here who would like to present a case for abortion, refuting the notion that it is (in the majority of cases) the communal practice of child sacrifice for the sake of worldly benefits? I think there are some who don't believe that there really is a connection/correlation between abortion and ancient pagan practice of child sacrifice. Can this belief be supported Theologically?

First you have to believe the fetus is a human being. There are arguments for both. Conciseness does not form till around 5/6 months. Here are some facts even today with all of are medical knowledge. Pregnancy is dangerous, it has multiple side effects that can cause mental illness, stroke, heart attack, you can die can giving birth. That is why I believe a woman has to knowingly and willingly accept carrying a child. You can not force someone to do something that can kill them.
Nobody has the right to use your body, against your will, even to save their life, or the life of another. You cannot be forced to donate blood or marrow or organs even though thousands die each year, on waiting list, not even harvest your organs after death without your explicit written pre-mortem permission. Since the fetus has not conciseness and does not have the part of the brain the feels pain till around 5/6 months that is when I would call the fetus a human being and after that point I believe having an abortion after that point save for serious medical reasons is murder.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

First you have to believe the fetus is a human being. There are arguments for both. Conciseness does not form till around 5/6 months. Here are some facts even today with all of are medical knowledge. Pregnancy is dangerous, it has multiple side effects that can cause mental illness, stroke, heart attack, you can die can giving birth. That is why I believe a woman has to knowingly and willingly accept carrying a child. You can not force someone to do something that can kill them.
Nobody has the right to use your body, against your will, even to save their life, or the life of another. You cannot be forced to donate blood or marrow or organs even though thousands die each year, on waiting list, not even harvest your organs after death without your explicit written pre-mortem permission. Since the fetus has not conciseness and does not have the part of the brain the feels pain till around 5/6 months that is when I would call the fetus a human being and after that point I believe having an abortion after that point save for serious medical reasons is murder.

The majority of pregnancies go well and do not have life threatening complications these days.

Also, there is no debate on whether a fetus is human or not, but whether it's a person or not. The argument is that the US Constitution only protects US Citizens not the unborn. There for the SCOTUS in 1973 used the privacy clause in the Constitution for allowing a woman to decide to have an abortion without the government's interference.

That being said, if Roe V Wade were to be overturned, it would be up to the states to decide.

There are few politicians even in red states, who would vote to throw women in jail for having
an abortion in the 1st trimester. Therefore, even if the states decide, few if any will outlaw all abortions. Most will outlaw them after viability which is what the Mississippi case is about.

 

[Laconia79]

The majority of pregnancies go well and do not have life threatening complications these days.

Also, there is no debate on whether a fetus is human or not, but whether it's a person or not. The argument is that the US Constitution only protects US Citizens not the unborn. There for the SCOTUS in 1973 used the privacy clause in the Constitution for allowing a woman to decide to have an abortion without the government's interference.

That being said, if Roe V Wade were to be overturned, it would be up to the states to decide.

There are few politicians even in red states, who would vote to throw women in jail for having
an abortion in the 1st trimester. Therefore, even if the states decide, few if any will outlaw all abortions. Most will outlaw them after viability which is what the Mississippi case is about.

Again pregnancy is potentially fatal, and there plenty of woman who metal illnesses after giving birth, you can make law forcing someone to do something that could kill them, is rare today yeah but it still happens. And the simple fact is if abortion was outlawed woman could afford it would go to were it is legal. And woman who could not afford it would use less safe practices like they used to and many died cause of it. I took the time to look it most abortion happen in the first 2/3 months. This is about Conservatives trying to force there religious views on abortion onto everyone. I have heard so many Christian arguing against abortion over rape victims over woman can not carry to term, many do not want to make acceptations for it. Several years ago a 10 year old go was raped and got pregnant and conservatives wanted her to carry to term. That is just disgusting.

 

[Laconia79]

I trust the Orthodox translators to know what was meant in the text, thank you.

What part of "God is revealed most truly and perfectly in the Son (New Testament)" did you miss when I said it the first time? You're citing Old Testament verse upon Old Testament verse to show us what sort of God we have. It just doesn't work like that. If you want to see God, you look at Christ. If you want to see how God sees children, you've got to look at how Christ saw them and how He treated them. Interpret the Old Testament with the Light of the New, please.

Accept its the same god. In the old testament I see a monster. The murder of children, justification of rape, even in Judges one of the judges made a stupid oath to god and ended up having to sacrifice his child to god. Now if god is so against child sacrifice why did he allow it to happen there. And you want to get specifics. The new testament says you worship how Jesus commands or you burn in a lake fire for all eternity. According to the bible a man could rape murder and torture a thousand children and all he has to do to escape hell is before they execute him is get on his knees confess his sins as god into his heart. On the other hand a wiccan who lives and honest life take care of there children helps others works hard will burn in a pit of fire. Yeah alot of people got a problem with that. The book contradicts itself especially in the new testament.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Again pregnancy is potentially fatal, and there plenty of woman who metal illnesses after giving birth, you can make law forcing someone to do something that could kill them, is rare today yeah but it still happens. And the simple fact is if abortion was outlawed woman could afford it would go to were it is legal. And woman who could not afford it would use less safe practices like they used to and many died cause of it. I took the time to look it most abortion happen in the first 2/3 months. This is about Conservatives trying to force there religious views on abortion onto everyone. I have heard so many Christian arguing against abortion over rape victims over woman can not carry to term, many do not want to make acceptations for it. Several years ago a 10 year old go was raped and got pregnant and conservatives wanted her to carry to term. That is just disgusting.

Life itself is potentially fatal. It doesn't give us license to come up with our own commandments, but follow God's.

I do not believe all abortion will ever be outlawed.

I listened to Chris Matthews debate Bishop Tobin of Rhode Island when he told Patrick Kennedy to not receive Holy Communion.
Matthews asked the Bishop if he had the druthers and was a member of Congress, would he write a law banning all abortions ? The Bishop immediately said yes. Matthews then asked him what the penalty would be for women who obtain an abortion, would they be sent to jail ? The Bishop could not answer and only said that he didn't have the expertise to answer that question. Matthews then said, but Bishop, you're telling a member of Congress how to write such a penalty for women.

 

[truefiction1]

Again pregnancy is potentially fatal, and there plenty of woman who metal illnesses after giving birth, you can make law forcing someone to do something that could kill them, is rare today yeah but it still happens. And the simple fact is if abortion was outlawed woman could afford it would go to were it is legal. And woman who could not afford it would use less safe practices like they used to and many died cause of it. I took the time to look it most abortion happen in the first 2/3 months. This is about Conservatives trying to force there religious views on abortion onto everyone. I have heard so many Christian arguing against abortion over rape victims over woman can not carry to term, many do not want to make acceptations for it. Several years ago a 10 year old go was raped and got pregnant and conservatives wanted her to carry to term. That is just disgusting.

It's disgusting to allow a new life in God's image and likenss to be brought forth? Sin is tragic, as is what happened to the girl, but to destroy a person for any reason is more tragic. It's not a "conservative" thing, or a political thing at all. It is a "God" thing. Why is it that we can say of medicine that was made using the tissues of aborted fetuses that "God can make good come from evil" to justify our use of such medicines, but if a young woman is raped we cannot say the same "God can make good come from evil" regarding a child conceived in an evil way? It doesn't make sense that we would try have "two wrongs make something right".

Accept its the same god. In the old testament I see a monster. The murder of children, justification of rape, even in Judges one of the judges made a stupid oath to god and ended up having to sacrifice his child to god. Now if god is so against child sacrifice why did he allow it to happen there. And you want to get specifics. The new testament says you worship how Jesus commands or you burn in a lake fire for all eternity. According to the bible a man could rape murder and torture a thousand children and all he has to do to escape hell is before they execute him is get on his knees confess his sins as god into his heart. On the other hand a wiccan who lives and honest life take care of there children helps others works hard will burn in a pit of fire. Yeah alot of people got a problem with that. The book contradicts itself especially in the new testament.

Why did God allow the children of jews to be killed in gas chambers and incinerated, so that the smoke of their burning bodies rose to the heavens? I don't know. But I do know that God has said "Thou shall not kill". Are we the "Thou" that was being pointed to in this commandment? If so, why do we want to kill children in the womb? Isn't the lake of fire for those who hate God, and therefor want to destroy the beloved children who God creates, to have revenge against God? Are such entities fit for life in Communion with God, who is Love? The New Testament reveals how we are to regard things in the Old Testament. The Resurrection sort of makes all the death and suffering seen in the Old Testament, and even the world, just about wholly inconsequencial, does it not?

 

[truefiction1]

Again pregnancy is potentially fatal, and there plenty of woman who metal illnesses after giving birth, you can make law forcing someone to do something that could kill them, is rare today yeah but it still happens. And the simple fact is if abortion was outlawed woman could afford it would go to were it is legal. And woman who could not afford it would use less safe practices like they used to and many died cause of it. I took the time to look it most abortion happen in the first 2/3 months. This is about Conservatives trying to force there religious views on abortion onto everyone. I have heard so many Christian arguing against abortion over rape victims over woman can not carry to term, many do not want to make acceptations for it. Several years ago a 10 year old go was raped and got pregnant and conservatives wanted her to carry to term. That is just disgusting.

These cases are rare. They are the exception, not the norm. Why use exceptions to set the precedent for normal practice? Only dishonest peoples do this.