What is Abortion?

[truefiction1]

You want 800,000 unwanted babies to be born each year when there already are thousands of kids in the foster care system. Explain how all of those babies and every older kid nobody wanted will be adopted. It is mathematically impossible to adopt out every unwanted baby. What is your plan to avoid adding to the number of homeless kids? Of course simply not getting pregnant is much better, but contraception is only as good as the person using it. Make one mistake and it will not work. And telling couples to abstain from sex forever never makes sense.

So killing them is the right answer? Maybe the real problem is the moral bankruptcy of the whole world. Maybe there's unbridled sexual immorality everywhere, and maybe it's because pornography is everywhere, and maybe there is evil everywhere. Still, if you are a follower of Christ you will neither kill nor condone the killing of children in the womb or anywhere else. Instead you will condemn it as evil.

 

[coffee4u]

You want 800,000 unwanted babies to be born each year when there already are thousands of kids in the foster care system. Explain how all of those babies and every older kid nobody wanted will be adopted. It is mathematically impossible to adopt out every unwanted baby. What is your plan to avoid adding to the number of homeless kids? Of course simply not getting pregnant is much better, but contraception is only as good as the person using it. Make one mistake and it will not work. And telling couples to abstain from sex forever never makes sense.

If every form of contraception was perfect, you would have an argument. But there is absolutely no way to make abortion illegal without increasing the number of kids nobody will love or take care of.

Avoiding everything you don't like in my post won't make it go away.

Being born sure beats being crushed and dismembered. Killing babies is not the solution.

There is currently a waiting line of adoptive parents wanting babies. Why don't they get adopted? Because the US as it does over most things is only looking at bucks and profit just like it does for the poor excuse of a health care system you have. Its deplorable that anyone should have to pay out $7,0000 to have a baby, and adoption in the US? Try $15,000 to $40,000.
Until the US get their heads out of profits and start treating its citizens right with basics such as fair wages, free basic health, things can only get worse over there.
A poor pregnant woman should have access to free anti natal and having the baby should cost her nothing. This is what you should all be up in arms and protesting about. The US is the only OECD country with no paid parental leave did you know that? Take a look at the graph.

The majority of abortions in the US happen because people can't afford to have children and woman are using it as birth control. Barrier methods of BC are not that expensive, but of course this should go hand in hand with people actually respecting themselves and gaining some morals, that would go a long way to reducing the numbers of unwanted babies.

Don't get mad at me get mad at your government and get some changes happening.

 

[GodLovesCats]

So killing them is the right answer? Maybe the real problem is the moral bankruptcy of the whole world. Maybe there's unbridled sexual immorality everywhere, and maybe it's because pornography is everywhere, and maybe there is evil everywhere. Still, if you are a follower of Christ you will neither kill nor condone the killing of children in the womb or anywhere else. Instead you will condemn it as evil.

I certainly do not think killing them is the answer. Yes, sexual immorality is partially caused by the media. Pornography promotes sexual activity outside of wedlock. But even if only married couples had sex, there is still the problem with no cheap contraception method being 100% effective. Sadly, what we want is not going to happen before Jesus comes back. So as Christians we need to focus on the real solutions, not all this "She is a baby killer and should go to prison!" nonsense that would do nothing to help other pregnant women decide against having abortions. Let's fix the root causes instead of encourage punishment after it happens. That is what I want.

 

[truefiction1]

I certainly do not think killing them is the answer. Yes, sexual immorality is partially caused by the media. Pornography promotes sexual activity outside of wedlock. But even if only married couples had sex, there is still the problem with no cheap contraception method being 100% effective. Sadly, what we want is not going to happen before Jesus comes back. So as Christians we need to focus on the real solutions, not all this "She is a baby killer and should go to prison!" nonsense that would do nothing to help other pregnant women decide against having abortions. Let's fix the root causes instead of encourage punishment after it happens. That is what I want.

Human solutions is what you're expecting? There is no human solution. The best a Christian can do is to do the best he or she can to do good, and to leave everything else in God's hands. But what a Christian cannot do is approve of killing of children, in or out of the womb.

 

[coffee4u]

I certainly do not think killing them is the answer. Yes, sexual immorality is partially caused by the media. Pornography promotes sexual activity outside of wedlock. But even if only married couples had sex, there is still the problem with no cheap contraception method being 100% effective. Sadly, what we want is not going to happen before Jesus comes back. So as Christians we need to focus on the real solutions, not all this "She is a baby killer and should go to prison!" nonsense that would do nothing to help other pregnant women decide against having abortions. Let's fix the root causes instead of encourage punishment after it happens. That is what I want.

Jesus is what they really need but under that one of the root causes in the US is the love of money over people.
1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Major changes in policy would be required, you are not going to get that from the Democrats or the Republics.

But accepting sin and upholding it is something a Christian should never do. Baby murders will face justice at God's throne.
Luke 17:2
It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Human solutions is what you're expecting? There is no human solution. The best a Christian can do is to do the best he or she can to do good, and to leave everything else in God's hands. But what a Christian cannot do is approve of killing of children, in or out of the womb.

So you want to just hope every woman makes the right decision without helping her get what she needs? When left on her own, she probably will choose abortion because the help she needs to keep her little one alive is either unavailable or not easily accessible. Through ministry, Christians need to fix this, so women will not need abortions because of time, money, education level, mental health, or physical disability.

 

[Laconia79]

Society has the right and obligation to protect its citizens, especially the weak and vulnerable, which is why there are laws that protect them.

Medical science states that life begins at conception.
The unborn are the most vulnerable of all, and should have their life protected as well.
Period.

Not at the cost of another. By your standard a 2 year old child needs a bone marrow transplant that means any person who is match has to donate...you can force someone to undergo a medical procedure, That is the law...and pregnancy without a doubt is one...it has to be consensual

 

[truefiction1]

So you want to just hope every woman makes the right decision without helping her get what she needs? When left on her own, she probably will choose abortion because the help she needs to keep her little one alive is either unavailable or not easily accessible. Through ministry, Christians need to fix this, so women will not need abortions because of time, money, education level, mental health, or physical disability.

We can minister in this way, but God can do way more than us. So, we minister to the best of our human ability and pray to God, in faith that he will work wonders to cause the good to come, because we are powerless without Him anyway. Blessed are those who mourn (over the evil and suffering, and the killing), for they shall be comforted.

 

[Laconia79]

We can minister in this way, but God can do way more than us. So, we minister to the best of our human ability and pray to God, in faith that he will work wonders to cause the good to come, because we are powerless without Him anyway. Blessed are those who mourn (over the evil and suffering, and the killing), for they shall be comforted.

So basically your telling woman who live in poverty and have mental illness and no way to get buy...to pray and hope. I am sure the child be raped by there parent or uncle, or the girl in college being gang raped...or the person with 3rd degree burns on 70% of there or body...the millions and millions who suffer atrocity...to pray. You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God. And you wonder why Christians and most religions get a bad rap.

 

[truefiction1]

I'm

So basically your telling woman who live in poverty and have mental illness and no way to get buy...to pray and hope. I am sure the child be raped by there parent or uncle, or the girl in college being gang raped...or the person with 3rd degree burns on 70% of there or body...the millions and millions who suffer atrocity...to pray. You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God. And you wonder why Christians and most religions get a bad rap.

I'm Merely saying that killing children in or out of the womb is evil. Telling the truth has always been what's given Christians a bad rap. People are judged by the truth and deeply resent it, and so they rebel against it, but also against the goodness of God in the process.

You are not going to make the world all better by approving abortion to alleviate hardship and poverty. In fact it will lead only to a far more evil world. It will bring about hell upon earth.

 

[coffee4u]

So basically your telling woman who live in poverty and have mental illness and no way to get buy...to pray and hope. I am sure the child be raped by there parent or uncle, or the girl in college being gang raped...or the person with 3rd degree burns on 70% of there or body...the millions and millions who suffer atrocity...to pray. You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God. And you wonder why Christians and most religions get a bad rap.

And your solution? Crush and dismember babies.

Be sure you know exactly what you are backing
Abortion Procedure Facts | Foundations of Life Pregnancy Center & Adoption Services

Suction Curettage: between 6 to 14 weeks after LMP
This is the most common surgical abortion procedure. Because the baby is larger, the doctor must first stretch open the cervix using metal rods. Opening the cervix may be painful, so local or general anesthesia is typically needed. After the cervix is stretched open, the doctor inserts a hard plastic tube into the uterus, then connects this tube to a suction machine. The suction pulls the fetus’ body apart and out of the uterus.

Dilation and Evacuation (D&E): between 13 to 24 weeks after LMP
the cervix must be opened wider than in a first trimester abortion. This is done by inserting numerous thin rods made of seaweed a day or two before the abortion. Once the cervix is stretched open the doctor pulls out the fetal parts with forceps. The fetus’ skull is crushed to ease removal.

Now if after reading and understanding what is done you still think this is somehow okay to do to another human being then okay, so be it. Then I can simply think you are bankrupt of emotion. But don't back abortion under some guises of it 'gets rid of pregnancy easily and painlessly' be 100% sure you know exactly what you are backing. Is being crushed and dismembered preferable to 3rd degree burns? Both sound equally as horrific to me.

 

[jamiec]

Elective abortion is called "murder" by members of the pro-life community, and worse still, is claimed by some to be the modern equivalent of "child sacrifice" as practiced in ancient pagan (demonic) religious cultures by some members of the Christian Church.

I've pondered this matter at great length, and have spent some time searching the web for any Christian, scholarly or Theological presentations on this question that present a case that abortion is "not child sacrifice". The only opposition to this notion seems to come from people commenting in forums whose statements and arguments seem to me to bear out a fundamental lack of Scriptural knowledge or anything resembling Spiritual knowledge.

Are there any in here who would like to present a case for abortion, refuting the notion that it is (in the majority of cases) the communal practice of child sacrifice for the sake of worldly benefits? I think there are some who don't believe that there really is a connection/correlation between abortion and ancient pagan practice of child sacrifice. Can this belief be supported Theologically?

I thinking calling it "human sacrifice" is needlessly emotive, therefore unhelpful; and inaccurate. Acts of sacrifice are acts of religion rendered to deities, usually by cultic personnel such as priests, or at least by agents acting as priests.

The deliberate destruction of unborn human conceptuses (of any stage of development) is not:

an act of religion
rendered to a deity
by cultic personnel.

Neither is it a "holocaust", for a holocaust, is a "whole burnt [offering]" - a species of sacrifice. Sacrifice is (among other things) a visible action or proceeding, performed as an act of religious cultus. The essence of such an act, at least in the Biblical world, is the surrendering (often by inflicting death) by the sacrificing agent of a person, animal, or thing, to a deity; with the result that what is sacrificed is no longer available for "profane", "worldly", "everyday" uses.

Self-sacrifice in battle has some roots in the religious act of sacrifice. When in 340 BC the consul Publius Decius Mus "devoted himself and his foes to the Dii Manes and mother Earth to give his army the victory in the Battle of Vesuvius, in which he was slain and the enemy annihilated", he sacrificed himself in both the religious & the extended senses.

Publius Decius Mus (consul 340 BC) - Wikipedia

Voluntary religious & military self-sacrifice like that could hardly be more removed from what happens during an abortion - another reason for not calling abortion a "holocaust".

Acts of sacrifice, whether partly externalised by performing an outward act, or purely invisible and internal, are pleasing to God, from a Christian POV. That is established by the use of a metaphor for sacrifice in Romans 12.1, to say nothing of the place in Christianity occupied by the Death of Christ, which is regarded, from the NT onwards, as a sacrifice. It is hard to see how abortion, the intentional destruction of the unborn, which has been condemned in Christianity since at least the 2nd century, can be pleasing to God - another reason not to refer to it in the language of sacrifice.

Misusing or over-extending religious terminology that has a definite and clear meaning tends to unfit such terminology for its function in describing (in this case) acts of religious worship. The word "Christian" is another word that has been over-extended and made almost useless for its original semantic function.

For these reasons, I think the word "Shoah', meaning "calamity", is in every way a far better word for the systematic and prolonged massacre of the Jews by the Third Reich than the word "holocaust". What happened was in every respect a calamity.

And the act of abortion, with its many harmful effects, STM to be much more a calamity than a holocaust.

 

[truefiction1]

I thinking calling it "human sacrifice" is needlessly emotive, therefore unhelpful; and inaccurate. Acts of sacrifice are acts of religion rendered to deities, usually by cultic personnel such as priests, or at least by agents acting as priests.

The deliberate destruction of unborn human conceptuses (of any stage of development) is not:

an act of religion
rendered to a deity
by cultic personnel.

Neither is it a "holocaust", for a holocaust, is a "whole burnt [offering]" - a species of sacrifice. Sacrifice is (among other things) a visible action or proceeding, performed as an act of religious cultus. The essence of such an act, at least in the Biblical world, is the surrendering (often by inflicting death) by the sacrificing agent of a person, animal, or thing, to a deity; with the result that what is sacrificed is no longer available for "profane", "worldly", "everyday" uses.

Self-sacrifice in battle has some roots in the religious act of sacrifice. When in 340 BC the consul Publius Decius Mus "devoted himself and his foes to the Dii Manes and mother Earth to give his army the victory in the Battle of Vesuvius, in which he was slain and the enemy annihilated", he sacrificed himself in both the religious & the extended senses.

Publius Decius Mus (consul 340 BC) - Wikipedia

Voluntary religious & military self-sacrifice like that could hardly be more removed from what happens during an abortion - another reason for not calling abortion a "holocaust".

Acts of sacrifice, whether partly externalised by performing an outward act, or purely invisible and internal, are pleasing to God, from a Christian POV. That is established by the use of a metaphor for sacrifice in Romans 12.1, to say nothing of the place in Christianity occupied by the Death of Christ, which is regarded, from the NT onwards, as a sacrifice. It is hard to see how abortion, the intentional destruction of the unborn, which has been condemned in Christianity since at least the 2nd century, can be pleasing to God - another reason not to refer to it in the language of sacrifice.

Misusing or over-extending religious terminology that has a definite and clear meaning tends to unfit such terminology for its function in describing (in this case) acts of religious worship. The word "Christian" is another word that has been over-extended and made almost useless for its original semantic function.

For these reasons, I think the word "Shoah', meaning "calamity", is in every way a far better word for the systematic and prolonged massacre of the Jews by the Third Reich than the word "holocaust". What happened was in every respect a calamity.

And the act of abortion, with its many harmful effects, STM to be much more a calamity than a holocaust.

The motives for both child sacrifice and abortion are the exact same. It is the sinful passions of wicked people that underlies the killing, and children are sacrificed on account of the evil that is in their hearts, and demons receive the sacrifices whether you are aware that they are or not. In essence there's no difference, only in outward appearance is there a difference. The wickedness is the same.

 

[dms1972]

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[dms1972]

I object on the grounds that this paragraph appears to be equivocating across two meanings of the word "sacrifice". One meaning is to make an offering to a deity. Another meaning is to give up something to obtain something else that is more highly valued. It is an error to see these two actions as the same.

In the case of the second meaning I think making a sacrifice would be something like not eating chocolate in order to lose weight - the latter is more highly desired, but it is a sacrifice if one enjoys chocolate. Can the same always be said of abortion eg. "I am giving up having this baby in order that I can finish my degree" - is it not sometimes the baby was not wanted - if so how can it be a sacrifice was made? More of a sacrifice would be giving up sex till one finishes college or university.

 

[truefiction1]

In the case of the second meaning I think making a sacrifice would be something like not eating chocolate in order to lose weight - the latter is more highly desired, but it is a sacrifice if one enjoys chocolate. Can the same always be said of abortion eg. "I am giving up having this baby in order that I can finish my degree" - is it not sometimes the baby was not wanted - if so how can it be a sacrifice was made? More of a sacrifice would be giving up sex till one finishes college or university.

That is a different meaning of the word than the meaning implied by the original post. Jesus Christ was sacrificed, and it was done by wicked people that didn't want Him around. Those wicked people weren't conscious of what they were doing. But they were sacrificing Him all the same. Those committing abortions are also sacrificing their own sons and daughters to idols (demons) while for the most part they are not conscious that they are offering these children to demons.

 

[Laconia79]

The motives for both child sacrifice and abortion are the exact same. It is the sinful passions of wicked people that underlies the killing, and children are sacrificed on account of the evil that is in their hearts, and demons receive the sacrifices whether you are aware that they are or not. In essence there's no difference, only in outward appearance is there a difference. The wickedness is the same.

NO THEY ARE NOT!!!! I was talking to my dad the other day as a rule he did not do abortion but in his 30 years as doctor he performed 40 and everyone but three were medical the other three were pre teen rape cases!!! The problem with people like is you equate all abortion as evil murdering of babies...there is a difference...and guess what if my 11 year old daughter was raped and got pregnant and disgustingly enough it has happened with girls younger but I will be strait, there were be an abortion I would not force my pre teen child to endure that, you need to close your mouth. I am not and many of us pro choice are not advocating abortion for every reason, but there are reason the problem with people like you is your solution is sit and pray...WHICH DOES NOT WORK!!!! 0.01% of answered prayers over the 99.99% unsuccessful is not a success. You need to close your mouth cause this is not know nor has it ever been a black and white case!!!!

 

[GodLovesCats]

Being born sure beats being crushed and dismembered. Killing babies is not the solution.

First of all, every pro-choicer in the world strongly condemns killing babies. They call it what it is: murder. Only people who never went to high school think the Bible is more important than our Constitution for the federal government to rely on for laws, executi8ve orders, law enforcement, and justice.

On your attempt to describe a D&E abortion, you conveniently ignored the fact that this is not common at any gestational age; most pregnant women know about it during the first trimester. Until a fetus must get out the D&E way instead of via D&C, which is less severe, My preference is based on the U.S. Constitution and simple common sense.

 

[truefiction1]

NO THEY ARE NOT!!!! I was talking to my dad the other day as a rule he did not do abortion but in his 30 years as doctor he performed 40 and everyone but three were medical the other three were pre teen rape cases!!! The problem with people like is you equate all abortion as evil murdering of babies...there is a difference...and guess what if my 11 year old daughter was raped and got pregnant and disgustingly enough it has happened with girls younger but I will be strait, there were be an abortion I would not force my pre teen child to endure that, you need to close your mouth. I am not and many of us pro choice are not advocating abortion for every reason, but there are reason the problem with people like you is your solution is sit and pray...WHICH DOES NOT WORK!!!! 0.01% of answered prayers over the 99.99% unsuccessful is not a success. You need to close your mouth cause this is not know nor has it ever been a black and white case!!!!

Truth is, there are those who think that by their own efforts alone they can render solutions to the evils of the world, and then there are those who, by God's grace are humble enough to know better. I don't care what justification you can give for abortions: rape, incest, risk to the mother's life, etc... What is really going on with 40 to 50 million abortions done per year in our times, is that people are killing most of these children because of sin, which is why they were killing them in ancient times as well. Prayer does work, in fact, by the way. The problem is that only a very few people are really praying on the earth at any one time, while the rest do things like fornicate, rape, murder, rob, commit adultery, violence, love money, love sensual pleasure and covet material things, eat and drink too much, lust for power, and the like. That's probably not going to change much, but I'm still going to call abortion what it is: the tragic taking of a new human life made in God's image and likeness.

Most abortion is done because a girl got pregnant by a boyfriend or husband and the child was not wanted, or it's otherwise being done systemically as a population control measure and so it is sanctioned or required by the authorities. It's largely sin that is driving the sacrificing of children, and even when a child is killed to save the life of the mother, which is a very rare thing indeed these days, this is still a terrible thing which takes place. It is not something that anyone who loves God and values human life would ever celebrate as a virtuous and wonderful thing to have done. It is a thing that must be mourned over. The problem with pro-choice philosophies is that they tend to catapult abortion to the high status of a sacred right, and so it becomes, by default, a sacred "rite", as in a religion, and then it is becomes so acceptable that is then becomes a sacrament of a false religion, like secular humanism, and you know what this means, don't you? It definitely means that the act of abortion becomes an act constituting a sacrificial offering that stands at the center of an ideology (which is a false religion, actually), and culminates in full blown, wide spread child sacrifice, which the evil spirits gladly accept, because they hate human children and would have them all destroyed.

 

[coffee4u]

On your attempt to describe a D&E abortion

I didn't 'try' and describe it, I quoted it for 6 to 14 weeks, which is extremely common, and then for 13 to 24 weeks.

Arms and legs are pulled off and out and once the head is too large it is crushed. These gruesome details are the truth. Murder should never be sugar coated the same as history. Mankind need to realize how wretched he truly is and repent.