What is Abortion?

[truefiction1]

yet unless the fetus is already dead such a procedure is illegal in the United States

It's allowed, under circumstances that are determined by the medical practitioners, and because in New York State, at least, abortions are now permitted up to full term if the attending medical practitioner decides that it's justified. And so, a fetus is killed immediately prior to the extraction so that the tissues are almost guaranteed viable for use in research.

 

[SilverBear]

When did God tell anyone to kill a human being by abortion?

Hosea 13:16 GOd commands " They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open

 

[SilverBear]

It's allowed, under circumstances that are determined by the medical practitioners, and because in New York State, at least, abortions are now permitted up to full term if the attending medical practitioner decides that it's justified. And so, a fetus is killed immediately prior to the extraction so that the tissues are almost guaranteed viable for use in research.

here is the law you are talking about . https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2019/s240 I suggest you read it as it doesn't say what you seem to believe it says

 

[truefiction1]

Actually no it was not considered murder until very recently. "there is evidence that some early Christians believed, as the Greeks did, in delayed ensoulment, or that a fetus does not have a soul until quickening, and therefore early abortion was not murder" OM Bakke When Children Became People: The Birth of Childhood in Early Christianity 1996
J. Hurse Abortion and Catholic Thought 2016

Even those who thought that the soul was not infused at the moment of conception, like Augustine, condemned the act of abortion at any time after conception as an act of murder. Several of the most revered early Church Fathers, however, taught that the soul was present at conception. They even call to mind the Conception of Christ by the Holy Spirit, a celebrated Biblical event, as evidence that killing any person who has been conceived in the way that was ordered by God is an unimaginable horror. The Church celebrates, as Holy feasts, the conception (i.e. the Annunciation)of Christ, and of His mother, and of John the Baptist. It's therefor unthinkable that they were "nothing" at the moment of their conception.

Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit. The others were conceive by miraculous intervention by the Holy Spirit, as their mothers had always been barren. Would I want to be one who destroys a human being who has been conceived, in their mother's womb? No, not me.

 

[truefiction1]

Hosea 13:16 GOd commands " They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open

What woman who has chosen to abort their baby has received a command from God to do this? What abortionist has performed the procedure because God told them, through a Prophet of God, to do it?

 

[truefiction1]

here is the law you are talking about . https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2019/s240 I suggest you read it as it doesn't say what you seem to believe it says

I'm fairly well aware of what the law says. It gives license to women's health providers to choose if a woman's health is at stake, or to decide if the fetus is good enough to let live or not. It does not define "health of the woman" at all, so this may be openly defined by the health specialist, who may deem that carrying a child to full term would injure the woman's mental or emotional health. The woman's health specialist, along with the mother, can now decide to abort up to full term babies as long as they think or feel that it's justified. Do you really believe that any law protecting the life of the fetus is actually going to be enforced? I don't. I'm pretty sure that abuses are taking place, and that this will happen more and more, because of what is called the law of "the slippery slope", and because fuller term babies are most valuable for scientific research, so there is significant market demand for such abortions to be performed.

 

[truefiction1]

here is the law you are talking about . https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2019/s240 I suggest you read it as it doesn't say what you seem to believe it says

Yes, thanks for the link. New York law was defining abortion to be a criminal activity by including it in the NYS penal code. All such references that had treated abortion as a crime within the penal code, were stricken/taken out/removed under this new legislation change. My point: Abortion used to be illegal in the United States. It was considered a crime. The NYS penal code having recently been altered only proves what I already stated earlier.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Abortion was illegal in the United States until 1973 AD, I think, because it was legally considered to be murder, as well as morally considered to be murder. An unconstitutional court ruling declared it to be legal. So what? It's still murder whether an evil people legalize it or not. The killing of Jews and other undesirables was legalized under the 3rd Reich. They were murderers, regardless of what was permitted by the governing powers.

Look up the definition of murder. The 14th Amendment automatically prevents abortion from being a type of murder, period.

Churches lie when they say constitutionally protected procedures are illegal just because God hates them. America is not a theocracy, you know.

BTW did you know God kills 2/3 of all zygotes, blastocysts, and embryos? Only 1/3 of all pregnancies can, if allowed to continue, last the whole 9 months.

 

[truefiction1]

Look up the definition of murder. The 14th Amendment automatically prevents abortion from being a type of murder, period.

Churches lie when they say constitutionally protected procedures are illegal just because God hates them. America is not a theocracy, you know.

BTW did you know God kills 2/3 of all zygotes, blastocysts, and embryos? Only 1/3 of all pregnancies can, if allowed to continue, last the whole 9 months.

The Church has always considered abortion to be murder, so what bearing do civil definitions have on anything? If the Church condemns it, then it's not something we allow or stand for.

 

[SilverBear]

Even those who thought that the soul was not infused at the moment of conception, like Augustine, condemned the act of abortion at any time after conception as an act of murder. Several of the most revered early Church Fathers, however, taught that the soul was present at conception. They even call to mind the Conception of Christ by the Holy Spirit, a celebrated Biblical event, as evidence that killing any person who has been conceived in the way that was ordered by God is an unimaginable horror. The Church celebrates, as Holy feasts, the conception (i.e. the Annunciation)of Christ, and of His mother, and of John the Baptist. It's therefor unthinkable that they were "nothing" at the moment of their conception.

Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit. The others were conceive by miraculous intervention by the Holy Spirit, as their mothers had always been barren. Would I want to be one who destroys a human being who has been conceived, in their mother's womb? No, not me.

references?

 

[SilverBear]

What woman who has chosen to abort their baby has received a command from God to do this? What abortionist has performed the procedure because God told them, through a Prophet of God, to do it?

you asked "When did God tell anyone to kill a human being by abortion?"

 

[SilverBear]

I'm fairly well aware of what the law says. It gives license to women's health providers to choose if a woman's health is at stake,

no it doesn't

or to decide if the fetus is good enough to let live or not.

no, it does not.

It does not define "health of the woman" at all,

that is defined in the law it is amending.

so this may be openly defined by the health specialist, who may deem that carrying a child to full term would injure the woman's mental or emotional health.

false

The woman's health specialist, along with the mother, can now decide to abort up to full term babies as long as they think or feel that it's justified.

False. Again you need to read the actual legislation.

Do you really believe that any law protecting the life of the fetus is actually going to be enforced? I don't. I'm pretty sure that abuses are taking place, and that this will happen more and more, because of what is called the law of "the slippery slope", and because fuller term babies are most valuable for scientific research, so there is significant market demand for such abortions to be performed.

I think you have been listening to far too much propaganda

 

[SilverBear]

Yes, thanks for the link. New York law was defining abortion to be a criminal activity by including it in the NYS penal code. All such references that had treated abortion as a crime within the penal code, were stricken/taken out/removed under this new legislation change. My point: Abortion used to be illegal in the United States.

so was interracial marriage. so what?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

How then can fetal anomalies be explained? When fetuses are formed in the womb, a certain percentage of them will either die in the womb or immediately at birth. Is it wrong to abort those fetuses when they have zero chance of living and in the process risk the life of the mother? Is God's knitting at fault?

The difference between a direct abortion and an indirect abortion has to be understood.
A direct abortion is when the physician or person performing the procedure, directly
kills the unborn fetus inside the womb before extracting it.
An indirect abortion is when labor or other procedure is induced
even though the fetus will die in the process.

The Catholic Church treats and indirect abortion as licit, especially when nothing can
be done to save the unborn fetus. Often it's in the first trimester and the mother's life
is at risk which mandates the procedure of an indirect abortion to be used. A dead fetus
inside the mother is a danger to her and must be removed.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I think that the consensus of pretty much every person who is anti-abortion is that life begins at the moment of conception, which is the precise moment that a person is infused with the "spark" of Divinity that makes one a living soul in the image and likeness of God.

I'm trying to see abortion the way that God sees it, and unless I were to have the mind of Christ I doubt I'll be able to see it the way that God sees it. But, I do know that Christ is God, that God is Love, and that God is also the Creator of new life in His image and likeness. This tells me that the creation of new beings who have the potential to become by grace what He is by nature, is His will, whereas the murder of those new beings is the will of the one who hates God so much that he wills to destroy God's creation to get back at God. God creates us in our mother's wombs, knowing us before we were even conceived. So at this point it makes sense to me that those who are against the destruction of new life in the womb are of God, and those who are not against it are not of God, and so they participate in fulfilling the will of the evil one, and thus, new life in God's image and likeness is sacrificed to the demons through the cooperation of evil men.

When ensoulment takes place no one knows and the Catholic Church doesn't know.
However, she prefers to error on the side of life.

That being said, even scientists agree that life begins at conception.
No human being skipped this process when their mother's conceived
them.

The argument for abortionists is when does the fetus become a person ?

We pro-life people believe it's at conception, but not every one agrees.

 

[GodLovesCats]

The Church has always considered abortion to be murder, so what bearing do civil definitions have on anything? If the Church condemns it, then it's not something we allow or stand for.

The meaning of the word word murder has always been very specific and never what the Church says it is throughout the history of the English language. You can condemn abortion all you want to, but calling it a murder is nothing but a blatant lie if you know what the word murder means.

You can call abortion inhumane. You can call it evil. You can call it horrible. You can call it a sin. But if you know the 14th Amendment and the meaning of the word murder, you can't call lit that.

 

[PloverWing]

The Catholic Church treats and indirect abortion as licit, especially when nothing can be done to save the unborn fetus. Often it's in the first trimester and the mother's life is at risk which mandates the procedure of an indirect abortion to be used. A dead fetus inside the mother is a danger to her and must be removed.

I didn't realize that the Catholic Church allowed this kind of medical care for a person who is miscarrying (that is, when the fetus has died). That's good to know -- thanks.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I didn't realize that the Catholic Church allowed this kind of medical care for a person who is miscarrying (that is, when the fetus has died). That's good to know -- thanks.

Yup, my own daughter went through it at 18 weeks of pregnancy. I did the research on it
as her baby was still-born. We had a funeral for him and the funeral home provided the
little casket and handling for free.

 

[PloverWing]

Yup, my own daughter went through it at 18 weeks of pregnancy. I did the research on it as her baby was still-born. We had a funeral for him and the funeral home provided the little casket and handling for free.

I am sorry. That is a very hard thing to go through.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Yet God commands his followers kill others for dozens of reasons.

Including fetuses. I can't remember the verse, but the Bible says under a certain condition someone must rip a pregnant woman's abdomen open and remove her fetus. So God is not 10% against all abortions for completely healthy women with completely healthy offspring.