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  1. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

    +187
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    Adam
     
  2. Tropical Wilds

    Tropical Wilds Lord, beer me strength...

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    Probably would be better to not rely on conspiracy theorists on YouTube for news.
     
  3. Toro

    Toro Oh, Hello!

    +11,940
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    I do not believe that the mark will be caused due to trickery. The devil is not Loki.

    I believe that accepting the mark will be exactly the same as the garden.

    The serpent didn't trick Eve. The serpent deceived. Though similar, are not the same.

    Tricked meaning you dont know what is going on. For example, the imagery in the garden, the serpent didnt hang out in a tree that wasnt forbidden with fruit from the forbidden tree and saying "eat this". Instead the serpent tempted her to eat of the forbidden tree, then told her the opposite of what God said about eating of the tree.

    She trusted the word of the serpent over the word of God. Adam trusted Eve over trusting God.

    I believe those that take the mark will know what it is they are taking, but will justify it, just as Eve and Adam justified their sins.

    IF someone is tricked (not deceived) or is forced to take on the mark.... there is no choice, free will did not accept it. IF one knows what they do or justify it by such means as "God surely will not send ME to hell by taking the mark to feed myself and my family" it is no different than the justification of Adam and Eve.

    Then, they, by their own free will, have made their choice. No tricks, not physically forced upon them... they, just as Adam and Eve, ignored the word and warning of God for their flesh... which leads to death. Those that chose the path of Christ, by their free will to trust God their Father to fulfil their needs, just as He did for Israel for 40 years in the desert... rather than to ignore the warning and justify disobedience by taking the mark... their path will lead to life.

    IF mandatory vaccinations were of the mark, I remember before I went to school having to undergo mandatory vaccinations.... that is not to say a vaccine CAN'T be the mark, I just dont believe that the mark will be forced upon people through trickery.

    That isnt to say we shouldnt remain vigilant and ever watchful..... just saying I believe that the mark, will at some level be known.

    Currently I believe the mark is most likely to be a microchip in the hand if the time spoke of in revelation is under currently available technology. I could be wrong however, which is why even though I personally doubt it comes in the form of a vaccine... we must ALWAYS be on alert as we are warned our enemy roams like a lion, seeking to devour.
     
  4. Minky

    Minky New Member

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    Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream
    
I. Babylonian Empire (609–539 BC)
    II. Medo-Persian Empire (539–332 BC)
    III. Greek Empire (332–140 BC)

    IV. Roman Empire (63 BC–AD 476)

    Daniel’s Vision of Four Beasts
    
“Thus he said, ‘The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings (Dan. 7:23–24).”

    Daniel’s Vision of Four Beasts
    I. Babylonian Empire (609–539 BC)
    II. Medo-Persian Empire (539–332 BC)
    III. Greek Empire (332–140 BC)

    IV. Roman Empire (63 BC–AD 476)
    
 1. Pompey (63–49 BC)*
    
 2. Julius Caesar (49–44 BC)
    
 3. Augustus (44 BC–AD 14)
    
 4. Tiberius (AD 14–37)
    
 5. Caligula (AD 37–41)
    
 6. Claudius (AD 41–54)
    
 7. Nero (AD 54–68)
    
 8. Galba (AD 68–69)**
    
 9. Otho (AD 69)**
    
 10. Vitellius (AD 69)**
    
 11. Vespasian (AD 69–79)**

*

    Siege of Jerusalem (63 BC) - Wikipedia



    ** The Year of the Four Emperors, AD 69, was a period in the history of the Roman Empire in which four emperors ruled in succession: Galba, Otho, Vitellius, and Vespasian. Between June of 68 and December of 69 Galba, Otho, and Vitellius successively rose and fell, the latter overlapping with the July 69 accession of Vespasian, who founded the Flavian dynasty.

    Year of the Four Emperors - Wikipedia

    Beast from the Sea

    “And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy (Rev. 13:1).”



    Symbolism is consistent in the Bible. This beast from the sea is a kingdom, as per Daniel 7:23. Yet it has two sets of kings: heads and horns. So, it is an alliance between two semi-autocratic states, such as the Axis Powers. Before the Napoleonic Wars, the Holy Roman Empire was a center of Christendom. It consisted of what are today known as Italy and Germany. The Byzantine Empire had fallen by 1453.

    Dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire: 1806

    Dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire - Wikipedia



    Seven Italian Kings/Heads (Rev. 17:10)
    
1. Victor Emmanuel I (1802–1821)
    
2. Charles Felix (1821–1831)
    
3. Charles Albert (1831–1849)

    4. Victor Emmanuel II (1849–1878)

    5. Umberto I (1878–1900)

    6. Victor Emmanuel III (1900–1946)*
    
7. Umberto II (1946)**

    List of heads of state of Italy - Wikipedia



    Recall: “And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy (Rev. 13:1).”

    The name of blasphemy: Emmanuel.

    “But while he [Joseph] thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

    “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    “Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

    “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, ‘God with us (Mat. 1:20–23).’”

    * “ITALIAN KING WOUNDED BERLIN [Rev. 13:3]. Dec. 28, 1915. (Via Sayville by wireless.) King Victor Emmanuel of Italy has been wounded by an Austrian grenade and is now in the hospital, it is stated by the Overseas News agency. The agency attributes its information to a traveler who has just arrived from Italy. Terroristic and anti-government demonstrations are extending to an alarming extent in Italy, according to this traveller .”

    

South Bend News-Times 28 December 1915 — Hoosier State Chronicles: Indiana's Digital Historic Newspaper Program

    “And I saw one of his heads [kings] as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast (Rev. 13:3).”


    ** Reigned only 34 days; “a short space (Rev. 17:10).”

    “And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space (Rev. 17:9–10).”

    

Seven Hills of Rome
    
1. Aventine Hill
    
2. Caelian Hill
    
3. Capitoline Hill
    
4. Esquiline Hill

    5. Palatine Hill

    6. Quirinal Hill

    7. Viminal Hill



    Seven hills of Rome - Wikipedia

    “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast (Rev. 17:12).”

    Ten German Rulers/Horns (Rev. 17:12)

    1. Frederick William III (1797–1840)

    2. Frederick William IV (1840–1861)
    
3. William I (1861–1888)

    4. Frederick III (1888)

    5. Wilhelm II (1888–1918)
    
6. Friedrich Ebert (1918–1925)
    
7. Hans Luther (1925)

    8. Walter Simons (1925)
    
9. Paul von Hindenburg (1925–1934)

    10. Adolf Hitler (1934–1945)*

    List of heads of state of Germany - Wikipedia

    These ten rulers began as the German Confederation (“no kingdom as yet”), but received power as kings one hour with the beast (1861–1945).

    German Confederation - Wikipedia

    * Whose holocaust lasted 42 months (Rev. 13:5).

    “And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months (Rev. 13:5).”

    The Holocaust - Wikipedia
     
  5. chilehed

    chilehed Veteran

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    That guy sounds like a total whack job.
     
  6. Minky

    Minky New Member

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    Beast from the Earth

    “And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon (Rev. 13:11).”

    

The defining characteristics of the beast from the earth are:
    Two horns like a lamb (Rev. 13:11).
    Spake as a dragon (Rev. 13:11).
    Exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him (Rev. 13:12).
    Causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed (Rev. 13:12).
    Doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men (Rev. 13:13).
    Deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed (Rev. 13:14–15).
    And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads (Rev. 13:16).
    And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name (Rev. 13:17).

    The number of the beast is six hundred threescore and six, and it is the number of a man (Rev. 13:18).

    Here is how 666 = WWW.

    χξς (Greek) = 666 (English) = ווו (Hebrew) = waw waw waw (Paleo Hebrew) = WWW (English).

    Waw (letter) - Wikipedia

    Arabic numerals - Wikipedia

    Banknote - Wikipedia

    One man is credited with inventing the World Wide Web (WWW): Tim Berners-Lee, a British computer scientist (which is why the Greek is translated to English). He seems innocent and useful (not to mention, sporadic), like a lamb.

    Berners-Lee was raised as an Anglican, but he turned away from religion in his youth. After he became a parent, he became a Unitarian Universalist (UU). When asked whether he believes in God, he stated: “Not in the sense of most people, I'm atheist and Unitarian Universalist (Wikipedia).”

    Berners-Lee worked as an independent contractor at the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) from June to December 1980. CERN is a European research organization that operates the largest particle physics laboratory in the world.

    In 1984, Berners-Lee returned to CERN as a fellow.

    In 1989, CERN was the largest internet node in Europe, and Berners-Lee joined hypertext with the internet, creating the World Wide Web.

    On 30 April 1993 CERN put the World Wide Web software in the public domain. CERN made the next release available with an open license, as a more sure way to maximize its dissemination. Through these actions, making the software required to run a web server freely available, along with a basic browser and a library of code, the web was allowed to flourish.

    Twenty years of a free, open web

    After being knighted by Queen Elizabeth II, and being backed by the largest particle physics laboratory in the world, Berners-Lee certainly exercises a lot of power. He now resides at MIT in Cambridge, MA.

    Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Alphabet, and Microsoft are collectively worth more than the entire economy of the United Kingdom.

    Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Alphabet, and Microsoft Are Collectively Worth More Than the Entire Economy of the United Kingdom

    Twitter Places Fact-Checking Warning on Trump Tweet for 1st Time.

    Twitter Places Fact-Checking Warning On Trump Tweet For 1st Time
    Berners-Lee is not the antichrist, though. “And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition (Rev. 17:11)”—that is the antichrist.

    I won’t go into who, exactly, I think the antichrist will be because it remains to be seen. But he’ll be the eighth king, and will be of the seven. Since the beast “was, and is not (Rev. 17:8, 11),” an interim will exist between the Axis Powers and the eighth king, or antichrist.

    “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

“Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God (2 Th 2:3–4).”
    World Wide Web Founder on Trump, Fake News, AI



    Why the Man Who Invented the Web Isn’t Rich

    Why the Man Who Invented the Web Isn't Rich

    How the World Wide Web was nearly called the The Information Mesh

    How the World Wide Web was nearly called The Information Mesh

    Would a robot kill a human being? Many people ask themselves this question. Sophia is one of the most famous AI worldwide. We have her as a guest and ask her the trolley problem. How will the AI answer this moral question?

    RoboEarth: a World Wide Web for Robots

Full Page Reload

    “Mark of the beast”—the English word “mark” was originally translated from the Greek “charagma,” which means “thing carved, sculpture, graven work.” The word “beast,” consistent with Dan. 7:23, means “kingdom.” The mark of the beast is a handheld, graven work of a kingdom.


    Face ID on iPhone X (CNET News)

    Mark = “thing carved, sculpture, or graven work.”










    G5480 - charagma - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

Apple explains

    iPhone factory - California USA (AUG 2019)

Overwhelming’ interest makes Hitler’s ‘Mein Kampf’ popular again.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...erest-makes-hitlers-mein-kampf-popular-again/

    “It's almost certainly not because of anything German bookstores have been doing: In fact, most had virtually hidden the book from customers. Some had refrained from advertising it, while others ordered only a single copy. But online sales picked up, and in-store sales soon followed.”

    The fire he makes come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men might be a nuclear weapon. The American Wright brothers flights in 1903 are recognized by the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI), the standard-setting and record-keeping body for aeronautics, as “the first sustained and controlled heavier-than-air powered flight.” Or it might be fulfilled literally, as in Elijah’s fire.



    One of the biggest Christian catchphrases is “one-world government.” How will the antichrist achieve a one-world government? Transportation and communication. People travelled on horseback before the early twentieth century. The telephone was patented in 1876. Have smartphones replaced God?

    Have Smartphones Replaced God?



    Too many people think the mark will be a microchip implant, but look at the translation of the word! Besides, assuming 7.5 billion people in the world, 0.0000013% of people have implanted RFID chips.

    What percentage of people have an RFID chip implanted in them at this moment? - Quora

    8 in 10 Americans depend on cellphones.

    8 in 10 Americans depend on cellphones

    44.87% of all people have smartphones today.



    1 Billion More Phones Than People In The World! BankMyCell

    “And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads (Rev. 13:16).”

    Two W3C Directors/Horns (Rev. 13:11)

    1. Tim Berners-Lee (1989–present)

    2. Ben Berners-Lee (future)?

    World Wide Web Consortium - Wikipedia

    Information Age
    1989: World Wide Web (WWW)
    
1991: SIM card

    1994: Amazon

    1995: eBay

    1996: Nokia 9000 Communicator (smartphone)

    1997: Mobile commerce
    
1998: Google, PayPal

    1999: BlackBerry, Napster
    
2001: Apple iPod
    
2003: MySpace

    2004: Facebook

    2005: YouTube
    
2006: Twitter, Apple MacBook
    
2007: Apple iPhone

    2009: Bitcoin, Samsung Galaxy
    
2010: Apple iPad
2011: Apple Siri

    2014: Amazon Alexa

    2016: Google Assistant
    
2020: e-Yuan, Libra

    Only 7 years between the invention of the World Wide Web and the first smartphone.

You might notice a gap between the first beast and the second beast: 1946 to 1989. This is characterized by the Plastic Age of credit cards. Its advent began with the first credit card in 1946 and concluded with the FICO score in 1989.

    Plastic Age

    1946: Charg-It

    1950: Diners’ Club

    1958: Visa, American Express
    
1979: MasterCard

    1985: Discover Card

    1989: FICO score



    Today, many websites still accept debit and credit cards, including PayPal and Apple Pay, Samsung Pay, and Google Pay. This year, however, will bring about the e-Yuan and Libra, digital currencies backed by central banks, or financial assets such as a basket of currencies and US Treasury securities, but exchanged via your phone. The digital Euro will follow, as will a Russian digital currency, a Japanese, an African, an Indian, an Iranian, an Iraqi, a Mexican, a South American, etc.

    “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

    “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus (Rev. 14:9–12).”

    Many people will disagree with this interpretation because they will wonder if they’ve already received the mark. And if you are already using Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies, or plan on using Venmo or Libra, you will claim that this is false because you would never receive the mark.

    Take heart. “And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads (Rev. 13:16).” Meaning, “all." Literally, “all.” If you have a smartphone, join the rest of us. We will all have one, someday.

    Here’s the catch: “And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name (Rev. 13:17).”

    

My belief is that the mark is a smartphone. And the name of the beast, or the number of his name, is the World Wide Web.

    That is my belief; I know there are others.



    I also think there will be a third world war over traditional currencies vs. digital currencies (see the 6th trumpet: Rev. 9:13–21). Think about it: two hundred million armored troops, the likes of which have never been seen.
     
  7. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The idea that the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials of Revelation have parallels instead of their events occurring in the exact order that John wrote them down isn't popular with men's doctrines that instead preach theories like Pretribulationalism, or Preterism. That is why those folks don't want to think of Revelation in the way that agrees with the rest of Bible scripture.

    I've already raised the point that there's only 7 main Signs of the end leading up to Christ's return that Lord Jesus Himself gave us in His Olivet discoure, and those are the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials of His Revelation. Thus the Book of Revelation doesn't stand alone, yet those who use men's doctrines as an excuse disregard God's way of allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture, which is why Christ's Olivet discourse is an early form of His Book of Revelation, with other pieces of the Revelation prophecy also given in other Scriptures too. Some of Satan's children so hate the Book of Revelation that they have tried to establish authorship for it by a pagan, simply because of its extensive use of symbology! So of course men's doctrines don't want to follow its connection with other Bible Scripture, which is actually where its symbolism originates (like from the OT prophets which through them God used much symbolism).

    Likewise, with the idea of a false one coming at the end of this world to work great signs, wonders, and miracles to deceive, the Book of Revelation wasn't the first place in God's Word where that was prophesied. Lord Jesus covered it in His Olivet discourse, and even quoted from the Book of Daniel about it. Apostle Paul covered it in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 and 2 Corinthians 11. Apostle John lightly covered it in 1 John 2:18 about the singular "antichrist" concept. Prior to His crucifixion, Lord Jesus even forewarned of the coming of Satan in John 14:30, which is linked to the Revelation 12:7-17 Scripture of Satan's casting out of Heaven down to earth for the end.

    How long does it take for the Bible student to recall what they studied from Genesis all the way through to the end of Revelation? Oh, yeah, not that many have actually covered all of God's written Word like that, have they? Why should God allow those to understand then, since they don't discipline theirself in His Word to show themselves approved of Him?
     
  8. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    I think that at times people want to uphold the "historical Christian theology" with regard to certain things.

    When it comes to the son of perdition and the temple he seats himself up in, I don't think you and I are 100% on the same page. It's not that I think or believe I have it all worked out (I don't, and I know I don't), but there are two Greek words for temple in the New Testament: hieron, and naos.

    hieron refers to the entire temple complex, the outer courts and precincts. naos in the gospels refers only to the holy place/most holy place.

    The word hieron continues to be used in all references to the Jerusalem temple after the verses describing the tearing of the veil, but after the verses describing the tearing of the veil, the word naos in only used in reference to:

    1. The individual bodies of the saints when Paul calls us the temple of God;
    2. The church as the temple of God;
    3. All the Revelation's references to the temple in heaven.

    There are two possible exceptions (which to me, do not seem to be exceptions):

    (A) The temple John is told to measure in Revelation 11;
    (B) The temple the son of perdition/man of sin seats himself up in.

    The new Jerusalem is called the holy city in Revelation 21:2, 10 & 22:19. In Revelation 11:8, Jerusalem on earth is called "Sodom and Egypt". Paul says she is in bondage with her children.

    To me, it's unlikely Revelation 11 will call Jerusalem on earth both "the holy city" and "Sodom and Egypt" in the same passage, and it's also unlikely that the Revelation will call both Jerusalem on earth and the heavenly city "the holy city".

    The beast will make war against the saints and overcome them, as we are told in Revelation 13. So it beggars the question, is John not symbolically being told to count the sheep of the naos (temple of God) in Revelation 11:1-2?

    The revealing of the man of sin/son of perdition is linked to an apostasy in 2 Thess. Judas Iscariot is the only other person called "the son of perdition" in the New Testament, and he was regarded by all as a follower of Christ, and one of the inner circle. Only Jesus knew Judas was going to betray Him.

    I don't believe we should overlook the fact that the man of sin is also called "the son of perdition", and his appearance is linked to an apostasy. Nor do I think we should overlook the fact that after the verses describing the tearing of the veil, there are multiple references to the temple in Jerusalem in Acts and in the epistles, ALL using the word hieron only - but naos (holy tabernacle of God) is only used in reference to individual bodies of saints as the temple, to the church as the temple, and in all Revelations references to the temple in heaven - unless Revelation 11:1-2 and 2 Thess 2:4 are the only exceptions.

    I've given the list of verses in this video:



    It's not a very long video and it does not clamor with unnecessary information.
     
  9. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I still read Bible commentaries. I just don't rely on them as the final source. God's written Word I rely on as the final source. If I don't understand something, I'll put it on a shelf until The LORD shows me.

    I don't rely on differences in the Greek of the word temple to define what temple Apostle Paul was speaking of in 2 Thess.2:4. That Greek word is also used in many other NT Scriptures to point to the literal, physical temple in Jerusalem, as you pointed out. The context of Paul's Message in 2 Thess.2 is what determines what temple he was pointing to.

    It turns out that he was pointing to the same subject of warning our Lord Jesus covered in His Olivet discourse about the coming pseudo-Christ involving the "abomination of desolation" event. And we know per the Book of Daniel in chapter 11 that "abomination of desolation" event requires a standing temple in Jerusalem, and involves a false one setting up an idol abomination in it.

    In the Rev.11:1-2 example, John is told to take a 'reed' that is like a rod, to measure that temple. It's simple to know that a reed is a measuring rod, so why are both reed and rod used in the same phrase? I believe it is because that particular reed there is symbolic of a punishing rod, though being used to measure that particular temple in Jerusalem, which is pointing to a final temple built for the end, with the Gentiles treading the city for the same time frame the dragon is given to reign per Rev.13 (42 months). See the Ezekiel 40 through 43 about the idea of measuring with a reed, especially note the Ezekiel 43:10 verse. The idea of 'measuring' the temple there is involving the idea of measuring up in righteousness vs. wickedness. In the case of Rev.11, notice that happens in Jerusalem in a time when God's two witnesses will appear there at the end of this world and prophesy against the beast, and then killed by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit. Once the flow of those events are put together, I don't think it difficult to understand what that's about and its connection with the coming Antichrist and his at Jerusalem for the end.

    Jesus also called Judas "a devil" in John 6:70, which is a direct identifier that goes with that "son of perdition" symbolic name. It shouldn't be that difficult to figure out the connection of that title with the devil himself, since only the devil and his angels so far are the only ones already judged and sentenced to perish in the future lake of fire. No flesh man has been judged yet, not even Judas. That time for Christ's Judgment Seat when all born flesh will bow the knee to Him is not here yet. But for Satan and his, their judgement to perish happened long ago (Matthew 25:41; Isaiah 30:33). That is why one of Satan's titles is "Apollyon" in the Greek of Rev.9, which that is from the Greek word apollumi for 'perdition' (Strong's no.622).

    I disagree. We can't make that requirement in the usage of the Greek like that. For that to be true, then there must be more Scripture witness clearly establishing that Paul was not speaking of a literal, physical temple in Jerusalem. And the problem wall one will always run up against in trying to prove that theory is what Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse about the coming pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem for the end and the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in a temple there. Men's doctrines also try to establish that Paul was not speaking of a singular "man of sin" in that 2 Thess.2 chapter also, but that clearly runs up against the same wall, with denying the singular context of what false one is coming to do in Jerusalem at the end of this world per Lord Jesus, which is even repeated in Rev.13:11-14 to Apostle John by vision...

    Notice that in all 3 Scripture examples of a false one coming for the end of this world, it involves the working of great signs, wonders, and miracles, pointing to a supernatural working to deceive. That is in the context of the false one Jesus warned of in His Olivet discourse, and by Paul in 2 Thess.2, and by John in Rev.13. All those examples are about the same pseudo-Christ coming at the end. That is how that "temple of God" in 2 Thess.2:4 is emphatically tied to the coming false one working signs and wonders in Jerusalem for the end.
     
  10. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    This is why I have not made up my mind either way about which "temple" the man of sin will seat himself up in. Because your position still makes more sense, and it is my "older" position which has not been discarded, and was only brought into question when I looked at the Greek words used for "temple" in the New Testament. So I'm in "I don't know" mode in-between two possibilities.
     
  11. Matt5

    Matt5 Member

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    Rev 13:17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

    We need a mark that is both a name and a number.

    Consider the name Allah in Arabic. Place two crossed swords underneath it. Rotate 90 degrees clockwise. This is what you get in Greek numbers: 600, 60 and 6.
     
  12. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I'm not seeing anything in the 6th seal paralleling anything in Matthew 24:15-26.

    Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    25 Behold, I have told you before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


    As to these verses in particular, Matthew 24:29 makes it crystal clear that the trib of those days meant in verse 29 are meaning what is recorded in verses 15-26.

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    According to this verse, any events involving the 6th seal are immediately after the events involving the trib of those days recorded in Matthew 24:15-26.

    Before we look into the 6th seal a bit closer, what should be noted is what takes place during the 5th seal, meaning this---until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11).

    This martyrdom is fulfilled during the events recorded in Matthew 24:15-26, and is also meaning Revelation 13:5 and that 42 months we are told about in that verse. And as of the time of the 5th seal it is not yet time to avenge the saints that are martyred and or who are yet to be martyred, that time begins with the 6th seal. IMO, the 6th seal not only involves the 2nd coming, it also involves the vials of wrath recorded in Revelation 16. None of those vials can precede the time of the beast nor the time of the 2nd beast, the fact the first vial is poured out on those that have taken the mark. If we compare with both Matthew 24:15-26 and Revelation 13, there is not even a hint of any vials of wrath being unleashed on anyone at the time.

    Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

    Take note of verse 12 and 13, these parts---and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth

    Where does Matthew 24 place those events? During the trib of those days, meaning Matthew 24:15-26, or after the trib of those days?

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


    Does not this verse show that these events are after the trib of those days? Is there any reason to think--and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair--is not the same as---shall the sun be darkened? And that---and the moon became as blood---is not the same as---and the moon shall not give her light? And that---And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth---is not the same as---and the stars shall fall from heaven?

    Even if you were somehow able to successfully argue that the sun and moon recorded in the 6th seal doesn't match the sun and moon recorded in Matthew 24:29, how could you also possibly successfully argue that the falling stars recorded in the 6th seal don't match the falling stars recorded in Matthew 24:29?
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 2:58 PM
  13. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I definitely cannot make up your mind for you. I can only speak for myself.

    The reason I can see it clearly is about the building of another temple by the Jews for the end is because of all the other Scripture evidence in the Book of Daniel, Revelation, Christ's Olivet discourse, and even pattern ensamples from the Old Testament prophets about the king of Babylon.

    Rev 11:7-8
    7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
    KJV


    That particular beast is about the "man of sin". If you struggle about whether or not that temple in Jerusalem for that time is literal or not, then wait until you have to make a decision about who that coming beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit really is. Our Heavenly Father through His Son will show you that if you truly ask Him for it. Otherwise, you are likely to remain spiritually blinded about it.
     
  14. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then you are not spiritually seeing what event actually starts the time of "great tribulation" which Lord Jesus pointed to in those verses.

    Rev 12:7-12
    7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."
    KJV


    That's what the 'untimely figs' idea is about; it's a metaphor for the time when that "dragon" and his angels are booted out of the heavenly dimension at the end of this world, and they have to come here, in our earthly dimension. That is why it will be a time on earth the likes of never seen before, nor ever will again. The "dragon", in person, is coming to 'our' world. And the majority are not prepared for it, and will wonder at who he is.

    Rev 17:8
    8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    KJV

    If you are like an early fig, that grows in the winter and falls off in the spring, that means you are gathered early, to the "another Jesus". The true Jesus gathers His saints at the Summer harvest, not spring. Did you not know there are 2 Jesus' written of in God's Word? One is a fake, an imposter, and the Other One is our LORD and Savior.
     
  15. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    no. It is not a physical mark anymore than beast with seven heads is physical. It’s a spiritual mark. It takes spiritual discernment to know how to count the number itself. How do we do that? Count that number and the answer can be found right in the Bible where many didn’t bother to read.
     
  16. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    It is about worship ... satan will deceivingly be behind a religious system (led by a man - the beast) and a state power (false prophet) .... kindred to the story in Daniel .... (mystery Babylon).
     
  17. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    In the OT, your thoughts are like a mark on your forehead, your actions are like a mark on your right hand.

    Many people believe the mark of the beast on your forehead or right hand are the same.

    Taking the mark will be the act of bowing down to worship the image of the beast that could be set up everywhere - if you don’t bow down, your digital currency will be cut off completely.

    The number 666 is the number of a man, says scripture.

    Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    It’s linked to one man, which IMO is the beast called the Antichrist - not a system, not a chip, not a barcode, not a tattoo.

    God’s servants are also marked on their foreheads in Revelation, but it won’t be a 777 tattoo, or chip, or vaccine, either.

    Shalom.
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    When Pharoah's two magic men turned two sticks into snakes to replicate Aarons's staff turning into a snake - was it by technology ?
     
  19. Minky

    Minky New Member

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    No, you're right. It could be literal fire from heaven. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
     
  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I do understand that a fake Christ comes first, then the real Christ comes. I simply do not place the former during the events involving the 6th seal is all. The reason I don't do that is based on the fact that Matthew 24:29 tells us those events recorded in the 6th seal are after the trib of those days, not before/during the trib of those days instead. The trib of those days meaning Matthew 24:15-26.

    It is during the 5th seal events that the fake Christ comes, and involves the martyrdom of these in Revelation 6:11---their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    This occurs during the little season the martyrs already in heaven are told to rest during.

    The little season in Revelation 6:11 is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast, and is meaning Matthew 24:15-26.

    The 6th seal events involve the day of the Lord, the vials of wrath, and the 2nd coming.

    Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

    Revelation 6 places the time of verse 31 after that of the 5th seal, after that of the little season. During the 5th seal it is not yet time to avenge martyred saints. During the 6th seal it is that time. And once again, according to Matthew 24:29, the events recorded during the 6th seal are fulfilled immediately after the GT, where the GT is meaning the little season in Revelation 6:11, the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13, and the GT recorded in Matthew 24:15-26.

    There are some that think 666 is connected with the 6th seal, the 6th trumpet, and the 6th vial, the fact that adds up to 666. IMO, it is only a coincidence those 3 together add up to 666 like that, and not that this somehow helps solve the mystery of this number.

    IMO, after the GT there is a period of time between that and the 2nd coming. And that I take that period of time to be involving the vials of wrath, for one.
     
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