What if you seek and don't find?

[Athée]

I would like to comment on this too if you still are interested.

Sure. I will try to keep track of our various conversational threads. I am a man though so my conversational multitasking is a bit weak
For myself I would still be interested in hearing if you would still be at the 100 mark if your revelation experience hadn't happened.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Sure. I will try to keep track of our various conversational threads. I am a man though so my conversational multitasking is a bit weak
For myself I would still be interested in hearing if you would still be at the 100 mark if your revelation experience hadn't happened.

Absolutely not.

 

[Athée]

Absolutely not.

Wow that is really interesting too. So this one experience has been absolutely central. Let's say hypothetically a Muslim had a nearly identical experience to yours but she said that it affirmed for her beyond a doubt that Allah is the one true God, that it moved her to that 100 mark. How could we determine which of you is more correct?
Also I hear you on the kids. We have a little guy as well (our last kid) and I actually choked up a bit folding laundry last night because he is too big for a sleeper that has been in our family for ages. They really are precious.

 

[AV1611VET]

Let's say hypothetically a Muslim had a nearly identical experience to yours but she said that it affirmed for her beyond a doubt that Allah is the one true God, that it moved her to that 100 mark. How could we determine which of you is more correct?

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Athée]

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Do you know if there is anything similar in the Quran or the Hebrew Bible etc? Just curious.
Also still looking forward to your clarification on Hebrews and the other questions I asked

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you know if there is anything similar in the Quran or the Hebrew Bible etc? Just curious.

Not that I know of.

But if there was, what would that mean to you?

Also still looking forward to your clarification on Hebrews and the other questions I asked

That Hebrew passage I quote ...

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

... goes on to say that, since it's impossible for Christ to come back and die again on the Cross -- (remember why Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land?) -- a person who is saved is saved eternally.

Getting saved, then losing it would mean that Jesus would have to come back and die again, just for that person.

You mentioned (or hinted, I can't remember) that you were saved at one time, but now aren't.

If that is true, then you're in for a big surprise when you die.

In other words, I believe: once saved, always saved.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Wow that is really interesting too. So this one experience has been absolutely central. Let's say hypothetically a Muslim had a nearly identical experience to yours but she said that it affirmed for her beyond a doubt that Allah is the one true God, that it moved her to that 100 mark. How could we determine which of you is more correct?

That wouldn't happen. A Muslim "experiences" Allah through the Q'uran. There is no personal interaction other than the support and guidance through obedience to the Q'uran and praying to Allah. There are no other religions that have a personal relationship with God other than Judaism.

Also I hear you on the kids. We have a little guy as well (our last kid) and I actually choked up a bit folding laundry last night because he is too big for a sleeper that has been in our family for a couple generations. They really are precious.

Ahhhh. Yep they are.

 

[Athée]

Not that I know of.

But if there was, what would that mean to you?That Hebrew passage I quote ...

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

... goes on to say that, since it's impossible for Christ to come back and die again on the Cross -- (remember why Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land?) -- a person who is saved is saved eternally.

Getting saved, then losing it would mean that Jesus would have to come back and die again, just for that person.

You mentioned (or hinted, I can't remember) that you were saved at one time, but now aren't.

If that is true, then you're in for a big surprise when you die.

In other words, I believe: once saved, always saved.

Quick response I like it

So you keep stopping the quote at the same place so I will put the whole thing from the ESV;

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV

So it is clear that having tasted those things in truth we can still fall away. Meaning according to Hebrews anyway we can go from being confessing true believers to saying in our hearts there is no God.

As for the other I wonder if maybe having your own example to work from instead of another's would lead to more productive conversation? Where would you put yourself on that confidence scale with 0 being all doubt and no confidence and 100 being all confidence and no doubt that your God belief is in fact true and correct?

 

[Athée]

That wouldn't happen. A Muslim "experiences" Allah through the Q'uran. There is no personal interaction other than the support and guidance through obedience to the Q'uran and praying to Allah. There are no other religions that have a personal relationship with God other than Judaism.

I am fascinated to hear you say that since I have actually talked to Muslims that have had personal experiences of their God that have changed their lives. Likewise with believers in Krishna. Are they mistaken? Why is it that you believe other faiths do to have personal experiences of their gods?

 

[AV1611VET]

As for the other I wonder if maybe having your own example to work from instead of another's would lead to more productive conversation? Where would you put yourself on that confidence scale with 0 being all doubt and no confidence and 100 being all confidence and no doubt that your God belief is in fact true and correct?

Um ... Kvothe ... no offense, my friend, but I use that passage on anyone who claims they were once saved, but now isn't.

It's not meant to open a discussion on OSAS.

And I'm still curious as to why you gave up all those benefits to become an atheist.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Do you know if there is anything similar in the Quran or the Hebrew Bible etc? Just curious.
Also still looking forward to your clarification on Hebrews and the other questions I asked

Yes and no. Some of the teachings of the Old Testament were used by Muhammad and the Old Testament is considered the word of God.

I will show some examples but I need to do some things right now.

 

[Athée]

Um ... Kvothe ... no offense, my friend, but I use that passage on anyone who claims they were once saved, but now isn't.

It's not meant to open a discussion on OSAS.

And I'm still curious as to why you gave up all those benefits to become an atheist.

Fair enough. I am not at all disputing OSAS. Maybe I misunderstood your initial post. I had thought you were saying that no true Christian can go from the experience of God as described in Hebrews to "the fool has said...." the implication would be either that I was never a true Christian to begin with or that I was and ha e not actually said there is no God. If that was not what you were saying then my apologies. I think Hebrews makes clear that true Christian believers can indeed fall away and say there is no God but as you say it doesn't have any bearing on OSAS.
Why I gave up those benefits...intellectual honesty. It was hard for sure and I lost community support and some people I would have called good friends, caused tension in my marriage. I guess the truth is that we don't choose our beliefs. We are either convinced on a given proposition or not based on the evidence and once I became convinced that there was simply no good evidence that the Christian's God exists I had to be honest with myself and those around me.
So where would you say you are on that confidence scale?

 

[Athée]

Yes and no. Some of the teachings of the Old Testament were used by Muhammad and the Old Testament is considered the word of God.

I will show some examples but I need to do some things right now.

Feel free to pick up on that thought but that question want directed at you specifically
What would you say if we were trying to determine which experience yours or the Muslim's were more correct? AV1611VET quoted Romans but I am not sure I see the relevance... In any case I would be curious as to how you would go about helping us figure out the dilemma.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I am fascinated to hear you say that since I have actually talked to Muslims that have had personal experiences of their God that have changed their lives. Likewise with believers in Krishna. Are they mistaken? Why is it that you believe other faiths do to have personal experiences of their gods?

I think you have misunderstood them. Yes, they "experience" Allah but through the Quran and not personally in the way the God of the Bible personally interacts with His people. They feel they are not worthy of that. Allah is too perfect to have personal contact with them. I think you have misunderstood about believers of Krishna as well. I would have to hear their own words and converse with them to feel that what you are describing is what they believe.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Feel free to pick up on that thought but that question want directed at you specifically
What would you say if we were trying to determine which experience yours or the Muslim's were more correct? AV1611VET quoted Romans but I am not sure I see the relevance... In any case I would be curious as to how you would go about helping us figure out the dilemma.

First and foremost the experience would not happen like I said. It goes against Islamic beliefs to claim that Allah would interact with mere humans other than what they learn from the Q'uran. They simply feel they are not worthy and Allah is too perfect to lower himself to their level.

 

[Athée]

First and foremost the experience would not happen like I said. It goes against Islamic beliefs to claim that Allah would interact with mere humans other than what they learn from the Q'uran. They simply feel they are not worthy and Allah is too perfect to lower himself to their level.

I think I know what you mean and there is indeed a difference in Christianity and Judaism although I don't know what your experience was so I can't be sure. Sufism is a branch of Islam dedicated to strengthening a personal relationship with Allah and Allah does indeed interact with his creation but always as you suggest as high and mighty dealing with his lowly undeserving creations. Of course other religions have believed in much more personal interaction even than Christianity as we see when we look at the classical Greek, Roman and Egyptian gods.
But let's conceded the point to move the discussion along. Let's say that the specific experience you had is one that can't be had by this Muslim woman. I think you would still aknowledge that they experience a relationship with Allah through their holy text and in their prayer lives, as well as in supporting them through their daily struggles. So given that they have these types of experiences as well how can we go about determining who's experience is more truthful, accurate or correct?

 

[Oncedeceived]

I think I know what you mean and there is indeed a difference in Christianity and Judaism although I don't know what your experience was so I can't be sure. Sufism is a branch of Islam dedicated to strengthening a personal relationship with Allah and Allah does indeed interact with his creation but always as you suggest as high and mighty dealing with his lowly undeserving creations. Of course other religions have believed in much more personal interaction even than Christianity as we see when we look at the classical Greek, Roman and Egyptian gods.
But let's conceded the point to move the discussion along. Let's say that the specific experience you had is one that can't be had by this Muslim woman. I think you would still aknowledge that they experience a relationship with Allah through their holy text and in their prayer lives, as well as in supporting them through their daily struggles. So given that they have these types of experiences as well how can we go about determining who's experience is more truthful, accurate or correct?

You are missing my point. Their experience is much different than that of the Christian, but leaving that for the moment it comes back to how does one determine truth? When there are two differing positions and they both can't be right due to the beliefs of each being opposed to the other, one must look at how both are confirmed. How they both came about, which came first and many many variables within.

 

[toLiJC]

How many years does a person have to seek God before he/she can give up? What if a person prays, reads, converses, all that, but receives no answer?

the true Saints still wait for God to save the world, including the Lord, Jesus Christ, St. Peter, St. John, St. Paul as well as the rest of the Holy Apostles Who prayed many times for overall salvation even then 2 millennia ago, if you see there is yet no full salvation for most people, then it is certain there is a need of more righteous believers to pray for it

Blessings

 

[Athée]

You are missing my point. Their experience is much different than that of the Christian, but leaving that for the moment it comes back to how does one determine truth? When there are two differing positions and they both can't be right due to the beliefs of each being opposed to the other, one must look at how both are confirmed. How they both came about, which came first and many many variables within.

Sorry for missing the point... Not intentional I promise.
So looking at some of those criteria I am not sure what you meant by how it is confirmed so I will leave that for now. On the others do you think how a belief arose necessarily determine if it is true or that when a belief arose (first - before another idea or after another idea) is a reliable way of determining it's truth?

 

[Davian]

How many years does a person have to seek God before he/she can give up? What if a person prays, reads, converses, all that, but receives no answer?

A few years, I would think, then pack it in.