What if you seek and don't find?

[HitchSlap]

Well laughter is the best medicine so that is good Not sure which nail you are referring to in this case but in my experience as long as you don't actually hit your own thumb it has to count as a win

I think the "nail" she's referring to is, that you weren't really a "true" Christian.

 

[Athée]

I think the "nail" she's referring to is, that you weren't really a "true" Christian.

Could be but hopefully she will let us know herself

 

[Oncedeceived]

Could be but hopefully she will let us know herself

Thank you. The nail I hit was the one about doubting His existence, and that taking you to a path of disbelief. This always happens it seems. God gives you something that is troublesome or casts doubt and then gives you the choice to have faith that He is who He says He is or to go on towards complete disbelief. It seems those who have the faith that He will show them an answer to all that troubles them will go on and actually have God reveal something from which you were troubled or confirm something you needed to have to work out the trouble. Those who do not have this faith go on alone.

 

[Oncedeceived]

As you say we have to ask if we want to clarify...well put My initial answer was a shorthand to be sure and if I had been inclined to give a more detailed answer I would have included all of those things you mentioned. In my mind all those are summarized as being a new creation in Jesus. But if it helps move the conversation along I absolutely agree with your extended definition and I would have (and did) said similar things when I was a believer.

Its been my experience that it is at this juncture (when one has trouble with God's existence) that God is actually giving you a choice to know Him better or to walk away. I think that you walked away and so God didn't reveal Himself more fully to you.

 

[Athée]

Thank you. The nail I hit was the one about doubting His existence, and that taking you to a path of disbelief. This always happens it seems. God gives you something that is troublesome or casts doubt and then gives you the choice to have faith that He is who He says He is or to go on towards complete disbelief. It seems those who have the faith that He will show them an answer to all that troubles them will go on and actually have God reveal something from which you were troubled or confirm something you needed to have to work out the trouble. Those who do not have this faith go on alone.

That's a really interesting perspective. My journey to atheism began with trying to prove to my non-beliving family members that Jesus was the way the truth and the life. You mention people having faith and God revealing more of himself as a result. Since I went I to this process as a strong committed believer does that mean that God initially weakened my faith to test me?

 

[AV1611VET]

How many years does a person have to seek God before he/she can give up? What if a person prays, reads, converses, all that, but receives no answer?

I'm surprised no Calvinists have jumped in here with something.

They have a dynamite answer to your questions.

Especially those of the supralapsarian persuasion.

 

[AlexDTX]

How many years does a person have to seek God before he/she can give up? What if a person prays, reads, converses, all that, but receives no answer?

What a great question! There is probably no clear answer, however. I will put my 2 cents in and hope it is helpful. There are various considerations to think about. Regarding unanswered prayer James (Yaacov) had this to say:

2 You lust, and have not: you kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: you fight and war, yet you have not, because you ask not. 3You ask, and receive not, because you ask amiss, that you may consume it on your lusts. (James 4:2 & 3)

The motives of the heart are primary. Do you want to know the God of Truth, or a god of your desires? There are many gods of our imaginations, but only one I AM. Accepting Him for He who actually is, and not what we want Him to be is the beginning. Which is why Proverbs tells us that the fear of Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom (Prov. 1:7).

James also tells us;

6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavers is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (James 1:6).

If you doubt His existence, you will not get an answer. It seems like a contradiction, but we can believe He exists and doubt His existence at the same time. If you think in your heart that He does not exist, but are giving mental assent, that doubt in your heart will block an answer.

He tells us in Deuteronomy:
29But if from there you shall seek the LORD your God, you shall find him, if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul. (Deut. 4:29).

But our hearts are complex entities. I met Jesus and he came into my heart when I was 32. I believed God existed as a child. When I was five I had a Catholic friend who told me that Jesus was God. In my young mind I found it absurd to think a man could become God, so I rejected the identification of God with Jesus. As a 10 year old, my atheist father told me there was no God. In my mind I heard, Yes there is. In hindsight I realize that the Holy Spirit was speaking to me at that time. But I took it as my own thought and held fast to the conviction of His existence.

At the age of 19 I thought it was about time I read the book that so many people had believed in for thousands of years: the Bible. I read it from cover to cover, excluding Psalms because I thought that was merely poetry. How wrong I was I realized much later. But while reading the Bible two verses jumped out at me, which I later learned were called Rhemas (Greek for the spoken word, and used to describe the experience of hearing God through the Scriptures). The first was in the Beatitudes; Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. The second was in the Parable of the sower and the seed; the good soil produced fruit a hundredfold.

At that same time I read Carlos Castenada's books (which I was told a decade later were frauds) on the Yaqi Indian, Don Juan. Because of those books I kept dream journals and desired to become conscious of being in the dream, which I did. These experiences convinced me of the reality of angels, which is too long a story to tell here.

Finally, when I was 32, a messianic Jew led me to Christ. Two questions he asked me were turning points to my believing in the deity of Jesus Christ. First was the question, Did I think all things were possible with God? I agreed. Then he pointed out, Then God could become a man. It never occurred to me that God became the man Jesus Christ, whereas my childhood conception was of a man becoming God as absurd. The second was, Did I believe in the devil? I said no. He thought it very convenient then for the devil. I asked him what he meant. He pointed out that if you were a thief and a murderer, would you want people to know you existed? That made sense. I already was convinced that angels existed (later, after my new birth I was able to talk to my guardian angel, but that is off topic). If angels existed and we were told by the Bible that devils were fallen angels, then I had an enemy who wanted me dead. At that moment I realized I needed a Saviour and cried out to Jesus for my salvation.

I offer you my testimony as an example of the complexity of the heart. There were certain misconceptions I believed that had to be corrected. I don't know your heart, but I am assuming you are sincere in your question.

I hope you find the answer to your prayers.

 

[AV1611VET]

It took me about three years to go from Bible believing, born again Christian to the atheist I am today.

What specifically made you give up all this ...

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

to become this ...

Psalm 14:1a The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

Was it science?

 

[Oncedeceived]

That's a really interesting perspective. My journey to atheism began with trying to prove to my non-beliving family members that Jesus was the way the truth and the life. You mention people having faith and God revealing more of himself as a result. Since I went I to this process as a strong committed believer does that mean that God initially weakened my faith to test me?

He may have pointed you towards a cross roads so that you would experience Him more fully.

 

[Oncedeceived]

What a great question! There is probably no clear answer, however. I will put my 2 cents in and hope it is helpful. There are various considerations to think about. Regarding unanswered prayer James (Yaacov) had this to say:

2 You lust, and have not: you kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: you fight and war, yet you have not, because you ask not. 3You ask, and receive not, because you ask amiss, that you may consume it on your lusts. (James 4:2 & 3)

The motives of the heart are primary. Do you want to know the God of Truth, or a god of your desires? There are many gods of our imaginations, but only one I AM. Accepting Him for He who actually is, and not what we want Him to be is the beginning. Which is why Proverbs tells us that the fear of Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom (Prov. 1:7).

James also tells us;

6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavers is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (James 1:6).

If you doubt His existence, you will not get an answer. It seems like a contradiction, but we can believe He exists and doubt His existence at the same time. If you think in your heart that He does not exist, but are giving mental assent, that doubt in your heart will block an answer.

He tells us in Deuteronomy:
29But if from there you shall seek the LORD your God, you shall find him, if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul. (Deut. 4:29).

But our hearts are complex entities. I met Jesus and he came into my heart when I was 32. I believed God existed as a child. When I was five I had a Catholic friend who told me that Jesus was God. In my young mind I found it absurd to think a man could become God, so I rejected the identification of God with Jesus. As a 10 year old, my atheist father told me there was no God. In my mind I heard, Yes there is. In hindsight I realize that the Holy Spirit was speaking to me at that time. But I took it as my own thought and held fast to the conviction of His existence.

At the age of 19 I thought it was about time I read the book that so many people had believed in for thousands of years: the Bible. I read it from cover to cover, excluding Psalms because I thought that was merely poetry. How wrong I was I realized much later. But while reading the Bible two verses jumped out at me, which I later learned were called Rhemas (Greek for the spoken word, and used to describe the experience of hearing God through the Scriptures). The first was in the Beatitudes; Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. The second was in the Parable of the sower and the seed; the good soil produced fruit a hundredfold.

At that same time I read Carlos Castenada's books (which I was told a decade later were frauds) on the Yaqi Indian, Don Juan. Because of those books I kept dream journals and desired to become conscious of being in the dream, which I did. These experiences convinced me of the reality of angels, which is too long a story to tell here.

Finally, when I was 32, a messianic Jew led me to Christ. Two questions he asked me were turning points to my believing in the deity of Jesus Christ. First was the question, Did I think all things were possible with God? I agreed. Then he pointed out, Then God could become a man. It never occurred to me that God became the man Jesus Christ, whereas my childhood conception was of a man becoming God as absurd. The second was, Did I believe in the devil? I said no. He thought it very convenient then for the devil. I asked him what he meant. He pointed out that if you were a thief and a murderer, would you want people to know you existed? That made sense. I already was convinced that angels existed (later, after my new birth I was able to talk to my guardian angel, but that is off topic). If angels existed and we were told by the Bible that devils were fallen angels, then I had an enemy who wanted me dead. At that moment I realized I needed a Saviour and cried out to Jesus for my salvation.

I offer you my testimony as an example of the complexity of the heart. There were certain misconceptions I believed that had to be corrected. I don't know your heart, but I am assuming you are sincere in your question.

I hope you find the answer to your prayers.

Awesome post!

 

[Athée]

He may have pointed you towards a cross roads so that you would experience Him more fully.

What specifically made you give up all this ...

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

to become this ...

Psalm 14:1a The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

Was it science?

Hey more good questions. I think you may have misread the Hebrews passage because it doesn't say once you ha e earnestly believed and experienced etc that you can never become so. Eons who says there is no God. Actually it says quite the opposite Hebrews 6 tells us that if after experiencing those things a believer walks away from the faith, there is no way to bring them back. Would you agree or am I missing something?

On to your other comments I am always interested when people use the word impossible. How have you determined that it is impossible to go from belief to apostasy?

As for my deconversion and science I guess it would depend on your definition of science. My faith was built on my experiences of God, his presence, answers to prayer, the way parts if the Bible word speak to me in my daily walk so clearly etc. So when I started looking I to the psychology of these experiences and discovered that there are naturalistic explanations for these phenomena, it defiantly caused me to doubt. And once I began to look at my experiences and the Bible critically I was on my way to where I am today.

 

[Athée]

He may have pointed you towards a cross roads so that you would experience Him more fully.

That seems reasonable. But even if that were the case I would still have the original faith that I began with. While it may not have been as deep as God had planned it certainly was faith and an experiment of walking with God daily. Does it seem probable to you that God, knowing ahead of time what would happen if he led me to this particular juncture, would choose to send me there knowing I would loose a perfectly sod faith in him?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Hey more good questions. I think you may have misread the Hebrews passage because it doesn't say once you ha e earnestly believed and experienced etc that you can never become so. Eons who says there is no God. Actually it says quite the opposite Hebrews 6 tells us that if after experiencing those things a believer walks away from the faith, there is no way to bring them back. Would you agree or am I missing something?

On to your other comments I am always interested when people use the word impossible. How have you determined that it is impossible to go from belief to apostasy?

As for my deconversion and science I guess it would depend on your definition of science. My faith was built on my experiences of God, his presence, answers to prayer, the way parts if the Bible word speak to me in my daily walk so clearly etc. So when I started looking I to the psychology of these experiences and discovered that there are naturalistic explanations for these phenomena, it defiantly caused me to doubt. And once I began to look at my experiences and the Bible critically I was on my way to where I am today.

That's too bad, it would have been incredible for you to have had what God had in store for you if you had not.

 

[Oncedeceived]

That seems reasonable. But even if that were the case I would still have the original faith that I began with. While it may not have been as deep as God had planned it certainly was faith and an experiment of walking with God daily. Does it seem probable to you that God, knowing ahead of time what would happen if he led me to this particular juncture, would choose to send me there knowing I would loose a perfectly sod faith in him?

You didn't know He existed. He wanted you to actually know He existed. He doesn't want to leave you in the realm of belief without reason to do so.

 

[Athée]

You didn't know He existed. He wanted you to actually know He existed. He doesn't want to leave you in the realm of belief without reason to do so.

Maybe we are talking past each other? I did believe he existed, I prayed daily both as a way of asking for things but more often simply as a way of listening for God's will, trying to think his thoughts after him. I read the Bible, sought the guidance of the holy spirit in my daily life. I had many experiences that I was convinced were revelations of God. I'm not sure how much more convinced I could be that he existed.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Maybe we are talking past each other? I did believe he existed, I prayed daily both as a way of asking for things but more often simply as a way of listening for God's will, trying to think his thoughts after him. I read the Bible, sought the guidance of the holy spirit in my daily life. I had many experiences that I was convinced were revelations of God. I'm not sure how much more convinced I could be that he existed.

If you knew He existed you wouldn't have ever believed He didn't.

 

[HitchSlap]

If you knew He existed you wouldn't have ever believed He didn't.

You don't know he exists, either.

 

[Oncedeceived]

You don't know he exists, either.

I do know He exists.

 

[Athée]

If you knew He existed you wouldn't have ever believed He didn't.

Have you ever believed in something and then changed your mind when more information became available?

 

[Athée]

I do know He exists.

Well we could go back and forth like that but maybe it would be helpful to ask how confident are you that your God exists. On a scale where 0 is all doubt and no confidence and 100 being all confidence and no doubt?