What if you seek and don't find?

[AMR]

How many years does a person have to seek God before he/she can give up? What if a person prays, reads, converses, all that, but receives no answer?

None that seek Him will be turned away. That is the didactic teaching of Scripture. Hence, if you have yet to receive the answer, you are asking the wrong questions or just really not seeking at all.

Better that all should feed their faith and starve their doubts by not neglecting daily Scripture study, rejoicing in hope, being patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer (Romans 12:12), fellowship with other believers, keeping good stewardship of the secular and spiritual gifts God has given them—including how and where their time is being spent—and with regular assembly with others to worship God, receive instruction, access the ordinary means of grace, and be subject to discipline (see also here, and Genesis 15:1-6; Prov. 3:5-8; Romans 5:1-11; Eph. 6, 1 Cor. 9:24-27; Hebrews 10:19-25, 35-39; Hebrews 11:1,6).

 

[HitchSlap]

Like I said, demonstrate how knowledge is demonstrable.

I'm not going to waste time defining terms for you.

I hope that Kvothe is not as paranoid as you are.

Or as annoyed.

I feel no condescension towards Kvothe.

I'm sorry to hear that. I guess some humans lack basic human traits.

I totally agree that he was the same type of Christian as I was

I think you're being a little less than truthful here.

before God revealed Himself to me.

If I had a nickel...

I've not said he wasn't a "true" Christian, you keep doing that.

Well, not outright, you haven't.

Unless you can demonstrate how knowledge is only knowledge if it is demonstrable then your argument fails.

What if I demonstrate you're unaware words have meanings? Do I get a cookie.

I understand what belief is

I agree.

and I understand what knowing is

I disagree.

and I know God exists.

Do you often find that people take you at face value?

You can not demonstrate how you know that I only believe and don't know that God exists...can you?

I only know that you have failed to provide evidence of it's existence. Therefore I believe you're only fooling yourself.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I'm not going to waste time defining terms for you.

I'm not asking for definition. I am asking you to demonstrate how knowledge must be demonstrable.



[Quote\Or as annoyed.[/Quote]Ah Hitch, I fear you live your life annoyed.

I'm sorry to hear that. I guess some humans lack basic human traits.

Funny.

I think you're being a little less than truthful here.

Why doesn't that surprise me.

If I had a nickel...

What if's...what ifs.

Well, not outright, you haven't.

That is what happens when one speaks for someone else, they are usually not able to provide the quotes showing what they "think" someone is saying actually is saying.

What if I demonstrate you're unaware words have meanings? Do I get a cookie.

Words have meanings and your words claim that knowledge must be demonstrable, but so far you have not demonstrated how knowledge must be demonstrable.

I agree.

Imagine that.

I disagree.

You are sure not full of surprises now are you?

Do you often find that people take you at face value?

When?

I only know that you have failed to provide evidence of it's existence. Therefore I believe you're only fooling yourself.

You have failed to interpret any evidence of HIS existence as evidence for His existence.

What you believe has no bearing on truth.

 

[HitchSlap]

What you believe has no bearing on truth.

Now you're getting it!

 

[Athée]

So if we can set aside some of the personal antagonism I think there are actually some interesting questions being raised. On the question of knowledge I tend to go with the definition of justified true belief. But this is different from saying "I can't be wrong I just Know that it's true". In this instance know is an indication of the confidence I have that a belief is true. Does this help our conversation at all?

As for calling me a true Christian or not I did have one question. You said that the statements I have made reflect your position before God made himself known to you. Does this mean that before you knew God you believed that he was real, prayed to him, ascribed life events to his influence, sought his will and read the Bible daily and sought to glorify him in word, thought and action?

Finally I would love to hear more about that experience thateads you to have such a high degree of confidence that your God belief is correct

 

[Oncedeceived]

Now you're getting it!

I have it, you seem to be the one with the problem. Still no way to demonstrate that knowledge is knowledge only if it demonstrable?

 

[HitchSlap]

I have it, you seem to be the one with the problem. Still no way to demonstrate that knowledge is knowledge only if it demonstrable?

No problem here, sister. I believe I know the truth, and it has set me free.

 

[Oncedeceived]

So if we can set aside some of the personal antagonism I think there are actually some interesting questions being raised.

...a breath of fresh air....ummmm love it.

On the question of knowledge I tend to go with the definition of justified true belief. But this is different from saying "I can't be wrong I just Know that it's true". In this instance know is an indication of the confidence I have that a belief is true. Does this help our conversation at all?

So are you one that doesn't believe that truth exists? That there are real and true facts?

As for calling me a true Christian or not I did have one question. You said that the statements I have made reflect your position before God made himself known to you. Does this mean that before you knew God you believed that he was real, prayed to him, ascribed life events to his influence, sought his will and read the Bible daily and sought to glorify him in word, thought and action?

Yes. Except I didn't read the Bible daily nor did I really seek to glorify Him in word, thought and action.

Finally I would love to hear more about that experience thateads you to have such a high degree of confidence that your God belief is correct

I don't share it.[/Quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Athée]

I have it, you seem to be the one with the problem. Still no way to demonstrate that knowledge is knowledge only if it demonstrable?

What kind of demonstration would be acceptable for this do you think. In my definition of knowledge as justified true belief you would say you have an item of propositional knowledge when you believe that something is true, the something is in fact true (comports with reality) and you have sufficient evidence that the something is true.
To move away from knowledge claims in general and towards the actual topic of these forums we could say that a person has knowledge of Jesus if they believe that Jesus is real and Jesus is in fact real and there is sufficient evidence to conclude that Jesus is real.
Thoughts?

 

[Oncedeceived]

No problem here, sister. I believe I know the truth, and it has set me free.

Free from what?

 

[Athée]

Wow that is really interesting. So you believed that God was real and had interaction with him before you knew him? I'm having a hard time getting my head around that... Help a fellow out?

As for you experience it is of course yours to share or not I would ask though... Let's say you never had that experience or one like it would you still be at 100 percent on that confidence index or would you be slightly lower?

 

[Oncedeceived]

What kind of demonstration would be acceptable for this do you think. In my definition of knowledge as justified true belief you would say you have an item of propositional knowledge when you believe that something is true, the something is in fact true (comports with reality) and you have sufficient evidence that the something is true.
To move away from knowledge claims in general and towards the actual topic of these forums we could say that a person has knowledge of Jesus if they bike that Jesus is real and Jesus is in fact real and there is sufficient evidence to conclude that Jesus is real.
Thoughts?

I wasn't the one who claimed that knowledge was only knowledge if one could demonstrate it.

What is the difference to you between belief and knowledge?

 

[HitchSlap]

Free from what?

Not free from, sister, free to.

 

[Athée]

I wasn't the one who claimed that knowledge was only knowledge if one could demonstrate it.

What is the difference to you between belief and knowledge?

Sorry yah I meant to post the first part as a general question, you didn't make that claim... My mistake.

As for knowledge vs belief the difference is in those other two conditions justified and true. We can believe things that are not true. For example I could believe that all apples are yellow. But this is not knowledge because it is not justified and true. All someone would have to do is show me a non yellow apple for my belief to change. Likewise I could believe that all apples are yellow because I have only ever seen yellow apples and the local expert on apples assures me that all apples everywhere are yellow. This is still not knowledge because it does not comport with reality. Those apples of other colours still exist and just because I haven't seen them does it make my belief that all apples are yellow true. This is why we need all 3 conditions justifies true belief. It is also why I add a confidence scale to my beliefs. If I were in that situation that all the apples around me were yellow and everyone told me that all apples everywhere are yellow then I would think I had knowledge and my confidence I trial would be very hight say 95 percent. But I would leave open the possibility that I could be wrong about that. Maybe I notice that tomatoes come in different colours and I wonder if somewhere apples do too. Does that make sense?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Wow that is really interesting. So you believed that God was real and had interaction with him before you knew him? I'm having a hard time getting my head around that... Help a fellow out?

As for you experience it is of course yours to share or not I would ask though... Let's say you never had that experience or one like it would you still be at 100 percent on that confidence index or would you be slightly lower?

This journey of mine has been from being a person who believed that other people believed God existed. I didn't know whether or not a God existed and didn't try much to find out. I most certainly didn't live life in a way God would have liked. I had an experience when I was 15 that I "believed" was from God and it gave me great comfort in a terrible time. That faded and on I went in my life. I later married and both of us were not "God" people. We didn't put forth any effort to find God really. Yicks...don't know if I want to go here....I'll skip the details. We began going to a church that our friends invited us to. I became a Christian in name and was baptized. We were there every time the door opened and the changes in our lives were dramatic. Yet, I only had the belief at this point that God was real or even existed. Eventually, I went the route that all roads lead to God and started off on a tangent of New Age belief and such. Oh my this is getting bogged down. Anyway, God brought me through all that and started showing me different things...I didn't contribute them to Him at the time though. Finally through this new path God started revealing things and I came back to Him, yet it was still later that He would give me the revelation that has finally taken me from belief to knowledge of His existence.

 

[Athée]

This journey of mine has been from being a person who believed that other people believed God existed. I didn't know whether or not a God existed and didn't try much to find out. I most certainly didn't live life in a way God would have liked. I had an experience when I was 15 that I "believed" was from God and it gave me great comfort in a terrible time. That faded and on I went in my life. I later married and both of us were not "God" people. We didn't put forth any effort to find God really. Yicks...don't know if I want to go here....I'll skip the details. We began going to a church that our friends invited us to. I became a Christian in name and was baptized. We were there every time the door opened and the changes in our lives were dramatic. Yet, I only had the belief at this point that God was real or even existed. Eventually, I went the route that all roads lead to God and started off on a tangent of New Age belief and such. Oh my this is getting bogged down. Anyway, God brought me through all that and started showing me different things...I didn't contribute them to Him at the time though. Finally through this new path God started revealing things and I came back to Him, yet it was still later that He would give me the revelation that has finally taken me from belief to knowledge of His existence.

So you would say that you already believed He existed and was real but then after God revered himself anew then you knew (sorry for the lame pun but I am a dad and it comes with the territory!) the God was real. Would it be true to say it like this: prior to God revealing himself, you were more than 50 percent confident that God existed but that after this revelation you moved from that middling position to the 100 percent certainty you now hold?

 

[Athée]

This journey of mine has been from being a person who believed that other people believed God existed. I didn't know whether or not a God existed and didn't try much to find out. I most certainly didn't live life in a way God would have liked. I had an experience when I was 15 that I "believed" was from God and it gave me great comfort in a terrible time. That faded and on I went in my life. I later married and both of us were not "God" people. We didn't put forth any effort to find God really. Yicks...don't know if I want to go here....I'll skip the details. We began going to a church that our friends invited us to. I became a Christian in name and was baptized. We were there every time the door opened and the changes in our lives were dramatic. Yet, I only had the belief at this point that God was real or even existed. Eventually, I went the route that all roads lead to God and started off on a tangent of New Age belief and such. Oh my this is getting bogged down. Anyway, God brought me through all that and started showing me different things...I didn't contribute them to Him at the time though. Finally through this new path God started revealing things and I came back to Him, yet it was still later that He would give me the revelation that has finally taken me from belief to knowledge of His existence.

Hay also I wanted to thank you for sharing, even in a general sense. Your earlier comment made it seem like sharing these things is difficult for you and I want you to know that I appreciate you taking the time to do so. We obviously don't agree about God but the fact that you care enough to share something difficult for you (or even to re-live it enough to share a summary of it) is both brave and an act of loving generosity.
Thanks again

 

[Oncedeceived]

So you would say that you already believed He existed and was real but then after God revered himself anew then you knew (sorry for the lame pun but I am a dad and it comes with the territory!) the God was real. Would it be true to say it like this: prior to God revealing himself, you were more than 50 percent confident that God existed but that after this revelation you moved from that middling position to the 100 percent certainty you now hold?

It wasn't anew. He only revealed Himself after I came back to Christianity. I only believed He existed but to put any level of certainty to it would be wrong.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Hay also I wanted to thank you for sharing, even in a general sense. Your earlier comment made it seem like sharing these things is difficult for you and I want you to know that I appreciate you taking the time to do so. We obviously don't agree about God but the fact that you care enough to share something difficult for you (or even to re-live it enough to share a summary of it) is both brave and an act of loving generosity.
Thanks again

You are very welcome. I sincerely hope that this is your desert and God will still be revealed to you. Some other unrelated advice that of course comes from the heart...enjoy every moment of those girls they will be gone far far to soon. You don't realize this until they have grown and you miss the butterfly kisses and the little hands in yours. <3

 

[Oncedeceived]

Sorry yah I meant to post the first part as a general question, you didn't make that claim... My mistake.

As for knowledge vs belief the difference is in those other two conditions justified and true. We can believe things that are not true. For example I could believe that all apples are yellow. But this is not knowledge because it is not justified and true. All someone would have to do is show me a non yellow apple for my belief to change. Likewise I could believe that all apples are yellow because I have only ever seen yellow apples and the local expert on apples assures me that all apples everywhere are yellow. This is still not knowledge because it does not comport with reality. Those apples of other colours still exist and just because I haven't seen them does it make my belief that all apples are yellow true. This is why we need all 3 conditions justifies true belief. It is also why I add a confidence scale to my beliefs. If I were in that situation that all the apples around me were yellow and everyone told me that all apples everywhere are yellow then I would think I had knowledge and my confidence I trial would be very hight say 95 percent. But I would leave open the possibility that I could be wrong about that. Maybe I notice that tomatoes come in different colours and I wonder if somewhere apples do too. Does that make sense?

I would like to comment on this too if you still are interested.