What if we have ALL been 'duped'?

[GforPerplexed]

I would agree.

Good and Evil are of the same thing.

 

[BukiRob]

Good point.

Therfore, we can conclude that 99% follow Satan and 1% follow G.D. Hence Satan has Won the war or is Winning the War.

Should we not then ask, how does Satan project His will.

LOL He is not winning anything Satan has no power over G-d he will be destroyed at the end of this age.

 

[GforPerplexed]

lol, If 99% of people do the wrong thing, im afraid He is winning.

 

[Hillsage]

The quotes I gave show God is the only one who controls evil and therefore there are no 1/3 of any evil angels who could oppose our experiences.

Oh, you're good, and yes I too agree with what you're saying. To me your quotes, as well as other scriptures, confirm that God not only 'controls evil' but is in fact the source of BOTH good/evil. Though evil in scripture appears to 'mostly' be 'passive allowance' and 'occasionally' 'active initiation'. But always within the limited bounds of His 'sovereign limitation'. Otherwise we'd all be dead at the hand of 'the adversary'...whoever/whatever he/it is. I hope this last sentence escapes your scalpel. MERCY

James 1:14 tells us that we, our own selves, are responsible for anything that we do, good or bad.
Jas 1:14 But every one is tempted, drawn away, and enticed by his own lust;

If this scripture is defining the WHOLE definition of "tempted" I'd agree. But what if it is only defining it to the degree that it is being applied 'in context'? Like I've said earlier;
Can't crucify a demon and can't cast out the flesh. I believe both are sources and I don't think I am the demon in my life.

2CO 7:1 Having, then, these promises, beloved, may we cleanse ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit,
As a born-again/spirit believer, I don't believe 'my spirit' needs any cleansing.

You ask about bad angels and I replied, there are only Holy angels of God.

Mat 25:31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
I think you are turning things upside down and need to return to the "Old Paths".

Contextually 'the ones 'coming with Him' neither states, or confirms there aren't other unholy ones, such as those who might still bound by chains in Tatarus. I took the 'Ancient Paths' seminar...but I don't think you're alluding that I should take it again....are you?

 

[he-man]

To me your quotes, as well as other scriptures, confirm that God not only 'controls evil' Otherwise we'd all be dead at the hand of 'the adversary'...whoever/whatever he/it is. I hope this last sentence escapes your scalpel. MERCY

If this scripture is defining the WHOLE definition of "tempted" I'd agree. But what if it is only defining it to the degree that it is being applied 'in context'?

Greek for "of" expresses the actual source, rather than the agent of temptation) his own lust. The cause of sin is in ourselves.
The further progress: the man allowing himself (as the Greek middle voice implies) to be enticed to evil [Bengel].

Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren

Contextually 'the ones 'coming with Him' neither states, or confirms there aren't other unholy ones, such as those who might still bound by chains in Tatarus.

READ "his angels" and they are not UNHOLY as you seem to imply.

Mat 13:41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes others to sin and those who practice lawlessness

You must mean Goats? (symbolically wicked person) God holds the breath of man and therefore there is no one bound in a real Tatarus those where the Bible speaks of being bound are already in the chains of the grave and will never be resurrected but burned up as chaff.

Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. 5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mat 13:28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, that having gone away we may gather them up?

Joh 15:6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.

God controls the life of everyone and as such the goats, tares, pruned branches, chaff, wicked persons are all burned up, to no longer exist.

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall anypluck them out of my hand.

Job 12:12 With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding.

I took the 'Ancient Paths' seminar...but I don't think you're alluding that I should take it again....are you?

Only if you do not walk therein or lack understanding.

Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

 

[Norah63]

Perplecxed, you need not be afraid, satan isnt winning.
That old bluffer is always trying to say, hath God said. he dosnt even have a new line.
Same tired one he used in the garden. Poor devil.

 

[Hillsage]

Greek for "of" expresses the actual source, rather than the agent of temptation) his own lust. The cause of sin is in ourselves.
The further progress: the man allowing himself (as the Greek middle voice implies) to be enticed to evil [Bengel].

Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren

For the purpose of our discussion 'context' is probably important for consideration also???

JAM 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

If there are 'good' gifts the implication in contrast would be 'bad/evil'/whatever contrasting gifts??? And where do they, then come from? Doesn't say cause it wasn't the context of discussion. My vote is 'not the Father'. So do not error 'bro'.

READ "his angels" and they are not UNHOLY as you seem to imply.

Mat 13:41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes others to sin and those who practice lawlessness

'angels of Him' in reference to this battle of His for this kingdom of Him.

And yes, "UNHOLY" is an implication since I don't know what term would work for you in contrast to HIS holy ones.

You must mean Goats? (symbolically wicked person) God holds the breath of man and therefore there is no one bound in a real Tatarus those where the Bible speaks of being bound are already in the chains of the grave and will never be resurrected but burned up as chaff.

What source do you know, that even knows what/where Tatarus is?

God controls the life of everyone and as such the goats, tares, pruned branches, chaff, wicked persons are all burned up, to no longer exist.

The FIRE is just as metaphorical as The goats/tares/branches/chaff IMO. And the God who "controls the life of everyone" is thereby responsible for everyone IMO. The fire which saves the believer in 1Cor also saves the unbeliever IMO. But I think you already knew I believed that. More of that orthodox 'dupping' IMO...just to make sure I'm not off topic.

 

[GforPerplexed]

Perplecxed, you need not be afraid, satan isnt winning.
That old bluffer is always trying to say, hath God said. he dosnt even have a new line.
Same tired one he used in the garden. Poor devil.

Im not afraid, but it is interesting to see the confusion.

 

[Angelquill]

We have God's Word. All we need to do is to read it and study it. Put on the whole armor of God...
Read it. Study it. Do it every day, not just for an hour or so on Sunday.
If you have God's Word hidden in your heart, you won't be so easily duped.
I've been reading and studying it since I was 12 years old. That's over fifty years, my friends...and it never gets old.
Too many people take the word of some guy behind the pulpit. While there is nothing wrong with listening to good preaching, it isn't enough. Preachers are only human, they make mistakes just like the rest of us.
You must take the entire book, not just a few "canned scriptures" that seem to prove some precious doctrine or other that you hold dear, but that isn't the truth according to God.
Your eternity hangs in the balance. It was a long, hard battle to get to the place where you can take owning a bible of your own for granted...there are many places in the world where it could still get you into prison, or worse.
Appreciate the gift that God has given to you. Read His love letter to you. Learn of Him.
The Truth is in there....

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Ok Doc.

Wouldn't have expected ANY less. Have discussed doctrinal issues with Catholics for YEARS. I am well aware of their 'smoke and mirrors' approach to 'Christianity'.

All you have done is try to DEFEND that which cannot be defended.

A BISHOP must be BLAMELESS according to the words of Paul. Now, how do you suppose that these words have ANY validity or true MEANING if we do not JUDGE those that would be our "Church LEADERS" according TO The Word? But of course, that is NOT what the Catholic Church TEACHES. So they are basically OPPOSED to the teachings of the Bible in favor of their OWN understanding that so often IS 'contrary to the Bible'.

And I find it almost INANE that you would suggest that the Bible was BROUGHT to us by the Catholic Church. You REALLY 'can't be serious'????????????

The Catholic Church MURDERED people that TRIED to bring the Bible to the PEOPLE.

An old friend of mine married a woman from Brazil that SAYS she's a Catholic. She doesn't even know who Noah is and she practices VOODOO. That pretty much SUMS up what I have learned of the Catholic Church. ALL one has to DO is SAY they 'believe in the Catholic Church' to BE a Catholic. But they can BELIEVE whatever ELSE they choose so long as they SHOW up in 'church' and throw some money in the plate as it is passed, OVER and OVER again. This is her SECOND marriage but she STILL 'claims' to be Catholic. IMPOSSIBLE according to the Catholic doctrine.

That's enough. this isn't a discussion about the Catholic Church. I simply tried to point out to YOU that even among Catholics, I have YET to meet TWO that were in agreement as concerns THE BIBLE. Then you come back with offerings ALTERING the words I offered. I didn't say two people with SIMILAR beliefs. I SAID, "Two people with the SAME beliefs". BIG DIFFERENCE. Core BELIEFS? I didn't even MENTION 'core beliefs'. And YOUR bringing it up on goes to offer FURTHER PROOF of what I have stated. JUST ABOUT EVERYONE is agreement on CORE BELIEFS that pertain to their denomination. It's when we start discussing EVERY THING ELSE that their unity begins to disintegrate.

I guess you didn't pay any attention to the part I offered concerning having discussed doctrinal issue with Catholics for YEARS. And I pointed out that even HERE, on this forum, when something like 'trinity' is discussed, it is JUST as likely for a CATHOLIC to correct a CATHOLIC as it is for a 'non trinitarian' to disagree.

Your attempt to offer something contrary doesn't 'add up'. You are simply offering WORDS that don't REALLY have any TRUE meaning. I KNEW what I was talking about when I opened this thread and that is WHY I opened it. And you trying to SAY that it is NOT so doesn't offer a SHRED of evidence to the contrary. JUST WORDS.

And if you feel that what I have experienced in my life is SAD and worthy of prayer, BY ALL MEANS, I can USE as much prayer as anyone is willing to offer. But if you see fit to pray for ME, pray that I can FIND those TWO PEOPLE................ Otherwise I'll be STUCK in my understanding that they DON'T EXIST.

Blessings,

MEC

Ok, I agree. You have been duped. However I think it a self-duping.

Anyone who thinks a person practicing voodoo or a Catholic remarrying outside the Church is representative of what the Church teaches has duped themselves. It would be like suggesting Westboro must represent what Baptist believe because they call themselves Baptist.

The point was the OP is overstated and that is evident in any place where a group of believers share a common core statement of beliefs, not just Catholics. If someone truly belongs to that group then they share those beliefs and we can say that person and another member of group would be an example of two believers that share that group's common beliefs.

The fact that one could find someone claiming to belong to such a group yet willing to state or demonstrate by their actions something contrary to what that group as a whole claims to believe does not meant that group has "duped" everyone. It means that person one has found has associated themselves with a group (for whatever reason - there could be many) yet that person is not faithful to those shared beliefs. They are not really living as if they do believe and/or never really believed everything that group holds to be true.

In the view of that body of believers that member is in err on whatever point is demonstrated or even stated as not believed. Different groups would have different ways of dealing with such members, but it does not mean the group is duping people. If the individual in err is claiming to be a faithful member of that group, then we could say they are duping themselves.

But it does not follow that anyone else is duped, UNLESS they allow THEMSELVES to be. By that I mean, like claiming in an internet forum that the person in err is obvioiusly evidence to us that no two members of that group that person belongs to are in agreement. And if that group publishes all their beliefs which they say are REQUIRED to be a FAITHFUL member of that group, then certainly it would be harder for outsiders to look at that member in err and claim the group is duping everyone about what that group "really' believes.

So if "voodoo" for example were not only NOT part of that published list but prohibited by that list, say something like this:

All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.
​

then obviously an example of a member of that group who practices voodoo is err as far as that group is concerned. The fact that person may claim to be faithful to that group demonstrates only that people dupe themselves all the time. The existence of such a person does not demonstrate the group has duped everyone about what the group "really" believes and if we somehow believed otherwise, we are only duping ourselves.

Likewise for someone claiming a membership with a group, but woefully unaware of even basic elements of what that group professes to believe. Again we dupe ourselves to believe that ignorant member represents what that group "really" believes.

 

[Imagican]

lol, If 99% of people do the wrong thing, im afraid He is winning.

Only WINNING the souls of the damned. In the END, God will triumph even if there are only a FEW that find eternal life.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Yes, you have a point.

What if what you are saying is true. What if there is evidence to support your theory. Would it make a difference.

Just a few ideas:

Our understanding of the Christian God is taken from one source, the Bible. So you would think, as you have said, the understanding and /or message should be the same, regardless of the individual. It should be Universal and All should receive the same message.

Reality however depicts another truth, the truth in regards to our understanding of God and His relation to the Us, as you have described. Bare with Me.

What if we have been duped by the Beast and the Bible is the means by which it is possible, as we derive our knowledge of God from the Bible.

What if it were True.

What if Satan has Won the War.

Would it make a Difference even if People Understood the Truth.

Can they Change.

Imagican, I know you are listening from the information in your last post, I mean no disrespect and I mean no offence.

Don't really KNOW if it is POSSIBLE to offend me in such a manner.

But I will offer this: I am a FIRM believer in the Bible. Not in the letters used form words or the paper it is printed upon. But the MESSAGE that is revealed THROUGH the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, it is JUST another BOOK.

And I am WELL aware of how it is USED by SO MANY to say something DIFFERENT than it actually DOES.

So maybe you have a point of sorts. But it's not due to God's inability to REVEAL. It would be MORE about the HEARTS of those that READ IT than the Holy Spirits ability to REVEAL the TRUTH to those who HAVE been 'born again' in TRUTH.

And that is the KEY. For those that have YET to BE 'born again' in TRUTH, the Bible may NOT be ABLE to be REVEALED in TRUTH.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Hillsage]

lol, If 99% of people do the wrong thing, im afraid He is winning.

Do not Fear or be "confused" GfP, when one truly has 'eyes that see' AND even better 'EARS THAT HEAR' it's amazing how one's POV can change for the better.

But for that 'fear not' or 'sound mind' to happen, something must surely change.
MAL 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; lol.

Do not limit the plan of God, like orthodoxy, to your short sighted observation of this age, which you just happen to be living in.

EPH 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace...

 

[Norah63]

Pardon me Perplexed, i thought you said you were afraid satan was winning.
He is just a loser all the way around. Had a good deal going and let pride get the better of him.
Lots of losers now doing the same thing. That dosent make him a winner, just the head loser.

 

[he-man]

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. If there are 'good' gifts the implication in contrast would be 'bad/evil'/whatever contrasting gifts??? And where do they, then come from?

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil

False religion as Amos says evil comes from God to use to test everyone. God, is who made everything both good and evil!

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these

Amos 3:13 Hear and testify against the house of Jacob," Says the Lord GOD, the God of hosts,(14) " That in the day I punish Israel for their transgressions, I will also visit destruction on the altars of Bethel; And the horns of the altar shall be cut off And fall to the ground.

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy. [YLT]

'angels of Him' in reference to this battle of His for this kingdom of Him. And yes, "UNHOLY" is an implication since I don't know what term would work for you in contrast to HIS holy ones.

READ "his angels" and they are not UNHOLY

What source do you know, that even knows what/where Tatarus is?

The Bible does not recognize Tatarus as a place of punishment, but as a Greek/Roman MYTH.

It was an island paradise located in the far western streams of the river Okeanos, and ruled over by the Titan-King Kronos or Rhadamanthys, a son of Zeus.
Hesiod, Works and Days 156 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.)

The second Elysium was a netherworld realm, located in the depths of Haides beyond the river Lethe.
It should be noted that Elysium was an evolving concept. Homer knows of no such realm, and consigns all of his heroes to the common house of Haides, while Hesiod and many other poets speak only of a paradisal realm reserved for heroes.
ELYSIUM, ISLAND OF THE BLESSED : Greek Mythology

Tartarus is the lowest region of the world, as far below earth as earth is from heaven. Along with Chaos, Earth, and Eros, it is one of the first entities to exist in the universe.

While Hades is the main realm of the dead in Greek mythology, Tartarus also contains a number of characters. In early stories, it is primarily the prison for defeated gods; the Titans were condemned to Tartarus after losing their battle against the Olympian gods, and the hecatoncheires stood over them as guards at the bronze gates. When Zeus overcomes the monster Typhus, born from Tartarus and Gaia, he hurls it too into the same abyss.

However, in later MYTHS Tartarus becomes a place of punishment for sinners. It resembles Hell and is the opposite of Elysium, the afterlife for the blessed. When the hero Aeneas visits the underworld, he looks into Tartarus and sees the torments inflicted on characters such as the Titans, Tityos, Otus and Ephialtes, and the Lapiths. Rhadymanthus (and, in some versions, his brother Minos) judges the dead and assigns punishment.
Tartarus

The FIRE is just as metaphorical as The goats/tares/branches/chaff IMO. And the God who "controls the life of everyone" is thereby responsible for everyone IMO. The fire which saves the believer in 1Cor also saves the unbeliever IMO. But I think you already knew I believed that. More of that orthodox 'dupping' IMO...just to make sure I'm not off topic.

The fire that saves and the fire that destroys:
Mat 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather be afraid of God, who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Job 31:11 Such wickedness should be punished by death.
12 It would be like a destructive, hellish fire, consuming everything I have

 

[BukiRob]

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil

False religion as Amos says evil comes from God to use to test everyone. God, is who made everything both good and evil!

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these

Amos 3:13 Hear and testify against the house of Jacob," Says the Lord GOD, the God of hosts,(14) " That in the day I punish Israel for their transgressions, I will also visit destruction on the altars of Bethel; And the horns of the altar shall be cut off And fall to the ground.

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy. [YLT] READ "his angels" and they are not UNHOLY The Bible does not recognize Tatarus as a place of punishment, but as a Greek/Roman MYTH.

It was an island paradise located in the far western streams of the river Okeanos, and ruled over by the Titan-King Kronos or Rhadamanthys, a son of Zeus.
Hesiod, Works and Days 156 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.)

The second Elysium was a netherworld realm, located in the depths of Haides beyond the river Lethe.
It should be noted that Elysium was an evolving concept. Homer knows of no such realm, and consigns all of his heroes to the common house of Haides, while Hesiod and many other poets speak only of a paradisal realm reserved for heroes.
ELYSIUM, ISLAND OF THE BLESSED : Greek Mythology

Tartarus is the lowest region of the world, as far below earth as earth is from heaven. Along with Chaos, Earth, and Eros, it is one of the first entities to exist in the universe.

While Hades is the main realm of the dead in Greek mythology, Tartarus also contains a number of characters. In early stories, it is primarily the prison for defeated gods; the Titans were condemned to Tartarus after losing their battle against the Olympian gods, and the hecatoncheires stood over them as guards at the bronze gates. When Zeus overcomes the monster Typhus, born from Tartarus and Gaia, he hurls it too into the same abyss.

However, in later MYTHS Tartarus becomes a place of punishment for sinners. It resembles Hell and is the opposite of Elysium, the afterlife for the blessed. When the hero Aeneas visits the underworld, he looks into Tartarus and sees the torments inflicted on characters such as the Titans, Tityos, Otus and Ephialtes, and the Lapiths. Rhadymanthus (and, in some versions, his brother Minos) judges the dead and assigns punishment.
Tartarus
The fire that saves and the fire that destroys:
Mat 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather be afraid of God, who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Job 31:11 Such wickedness should be punished by death.
12 It would be like a destructive, hellish fire, consuming everything I have

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;


Hell is incorrectly identified in the English here, as it is Tartarus ταρταρώσας (tartarōsas) that is found here in the Greek. Tartarus is not hell but a place of restraint for fallen angels until the day of judgement. This is the only place in scripture that this word is ever found.

Peter has this to say about angels 2 Peter 2:10 Presumptuous and self-willed, these false teachers do not tremble at insulting angelic beings; 11 whereas angels, though stronger and more powerful, do not bring before the Lord an insulting charge against them. 12 But these people, acting without thinking, like animals without reason, born to be captured and destroyed, insult things about which they have no knowledge.

The Greek word here is ἄγγελοι which means messenger or envoy and in many times in scripture it is translated angle and it CAN mean a messenger which indeed could mean a human being.

Here it is IMO rather obvious that Peter is speaking about a heavenly envoy

 

[Imagican]

I make no apoligies for my words, but what if it were true.

I dont expect you to listen, take heed or change. I do not know any words from the Bible, it is just a mere point of discussion.

I will say however, if Satan has not won, why is the World as it is.

That is where many ERR. They THINK that this world will be WON by God through His Son. The Bible DOES NOT OFFER such a scenario. The Bible tells us that this VERY WORLD will be DESTROYED by 'fervent HEAT' to the point that it's very elements will be MELTED. And a NEW world will be 'created'.

This world BELONGS to Satan. He is the PRINCE of 'this world' and Christ doesn't have ANY desire for it. Didn't have ANY desire FOR it when He was HERE, and has NO MORE desire for it NOW. Only a FEW OF THE PEOPLE matter. The rest are going to merely be fodder for the FIRE. When grain was harvested by HAND back then, there was ALWAYS much more FODDER at the end than the actual 'grain'.

Satan WON this 'world' during the event in the garden. Maybe from the moment he was 'cast down' to Earth it became HIS. When he was able to convince Eve to disobey, he certainly brought about men being BORN sinners. In THAT respect, he most assuredly WON.

And he's been WINNING ever since. Just LOOK around you and it's pretty PLAIN to see. When men reach the point that they would run around BRAGGING about how they would 'rather rule in hell than serve in heaven', I believe that it's pretty OBVIOUS what STATE their 'hearts' are in. When men would rather spend their wealth on ocean 'cruises' and 'wine tasting conventions' rather than helping each other, it pretty much SUMS up what's TRULY in their hearts. And when men designing weapons to use against each other or to sell to those with the intent to use them on each other, CLAIM to be 'Christians', such things just go to SHOW exactly the STATE of crisis 'this world' has reached.

Yes, we have been assured that there would ALWAYS remain an 'remnant'. But being skilled in Sheetrock installation, I can ASSURE YOU, that the REMNANTS that I leave behind are but a TINY portion of that which is USED. Or when I put down carpet, what is left and considered 'remnants' are MERELY that: small SCRAPS that wouldn't cover five square feet.

So, to some 'remnant' may be a LARGE number or amount. But to ME, it is a miniscule amount that is LEFT OVER. Not enough to use for ANYTHING. Not WASTED. But a necessary PART of the FACT that EVERYTHING is shaped differently and it ALWAYS demands that a small amount be discarded in order to MAKE the REST fit.

And the Bible USES the word 'remnant'. An indication that even the 'churches' would EVENTUALLY be LED astray and ONLY a "REMNANT" would REMAIN.

Couple this with the words that God will be FORCED to 'cut the days short' or even the VERY ELECT would be 'led astray' and we have something serious to contemplate. A time at the END when even God's very ELECT are exposed to influence that is capable of leading them astray. So what does that say about the REST of US, (unless, of course, you are a Calvanist).

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Hillsage]

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil

Yes, thank you for another verse confirming what I believe, even as you said. "ALL are under God's control"...and therefore it is up to God to either kill them all or save them all. I've decided he has a better plan than 'purposeless eternal torture' or 'eternal death through annihilation'. Only in fulfilling His plan of saving ALL "in due time" can "the last enemy to be destroyed/apollumi is death."

1TI 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these

Amen, He accepts responsibility for all He has created....including "the smith" and his purgative flames'.

Amos 3:13 Hear and testify against the house of Jacob," Says the Lord GOD, the God of hosts,(14) " That in the day I punish Israel for their transgressions, I will also visit destruction on the altars of Bethel; And the horns of the altar shall be cut off And fall to the ground.

And why is He not destroying Israel in the quoted verse, instead of just destroying her pagan altars? Is it because they were "chosen". And chosen 'not' because of anything they had ever done. And when He finally 'chooses' everyone in the "due time" of "ages to come", they too will be dealt with, in spite of what they have done, by a God whose "MERCY endurath forever", even though "he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy."

Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

A good word for sure brother...and a word for ALL.....including you, I might add.

If you are an annihilationist...I think I've asked earlier without answer. But if I'm wrong though I wish you'd just, 'help me part-timers bro', and boldly confess such. Any way, if your memory is better you know I do consider annihilation as a 'more' merciful God, just not as merciful as one who doesn't eternally kill and thereby never destroying death. I much prefer the God Jesus represents and reveals both in action/parable and with his own life, as to how God "Kills and makes alive again" even as the seed dies but results in subsequent life. Such is the "likeness of God" that I believe in and strive to emulate.

DEU 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Too bad the hand (of the devil/Satan/serprent/dragon????) trump's the 'God-likeness' hand of most "Christians"...all IMO of course.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy. [YLT] READ "his angels" and they are not UNHOLY The Bible does not recognize Tatarus as a place of punishment, but as a Greek/Roman MYTH.

Take your POV to its 'creative' end. He created sinners and unholy angels. Again I say 'unholy' just for a name for the 1/3. Maybe I better ask, do you even ascribe to the 1/3 fallen angels theology?

As far as all you quoted on Tartarus to prove; "The Bible does not recognize Tatarus as a place of punishment, but as a Greek/Roman MYTH."

My bible just doesn't line up with all that.

2PE 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell/Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

"'Holy sinful angels'!!!... Batman"

 

[interpreter]

That is where many ERR. They THINK that this world will be WON by God through His Son. The Bible DOES NOT OFFER such a scenario. The Bible tells us that this VERY WORLD will be DESTROYED by 'fervent HEAT' to the point that it's very elements will be MELTED. And a NEW world will be 'created'.

This world BELONGS to Satan. He is the PRINCE of 'this world' and Christ doesn't have ANY desire for it. Didn't have ANY desire FOR it when He was HERE, and has NO MORE desire for it NOW. Only a FEW OF THE PEOPLE matter. The rest are going to merely be fodder for the FIRE. When grain was harvested by HAND back then, there was ALWAYS much more FODDER at the end than the actual 'grain'.

Satan WON this 'world' during the event in the garden. Maybe from the moment he was 'cast down' to Earth it became HIS. When he was able to convince Eve to disobey, he certainly brought about men being BORN sinners. In THAT respect, he most assuredly WON.

And he's been WINNING ever since. Just LOOK around you and it's pretty PLAIN to see. When men reach the point that they would run around BRAGGING about how they would 'rather rule in hell than serve in heaven', I believe that it's pretty OBVIOUS what STATE their 'hearts' are in. When men would rather spend their wealth on ocean 'cruises' and 'wine tasting conventions' rather than helping each other, it pretty much SUMS up what's TRULY in their hearts. And when men designing weapons to use against each other or to sell to those with the intent to use them on each other, CLAIM to be 'Christians', such things just go to SHOW exactly the STATE of crisis 'this world' has reached.

Yes, we have been assured that there would ALWAYS remain an 'remnant'. But being skilled in Sheetrock installation, I can ASSURE YOU, that the REMNANTS that I leave behind are but a TINY portion of that which is USED. Or when I put down carpet, what is left and considered 'remnants' are MERELY that: small SCRAPS that wouldn't cover five square feet.

So, to some 'remnant' may be a LARGE number or amount. But to ME, it is a miniscule amount that is LEFT OVER. Not enough to use for ANYTHING. Not WASTED. But a necessary PART of the FACT that EVERYTHING is shaped differently and it ALWAYS demands that a small amount be discarded in order to MAKE the REST fit.

And the Bible USES the word 'remnant'. An indication that even the 'churches' would EVENTUALLY be LED astray and ONLY a "REMNANT" would REMAIN.

Couple this with the words that God will be FORCED to 'cut the days short' or even the VERY ELECT would be 'led astray' and we have something serious to contemplate. A time at the END when even God's very ELECT are exposed to influence that is capable of leading them astray. So what does that say about the REST of US, (unless, of course, you are a Calvanist).

Blessings,

MEC

Wrong. Stnce 312 AD wgen the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, Jesus has ruled the earth through Christian nations. The US, founded by George Washington who rode a pale horse, is the 4th Christian superpower to rule the earth. Our weapons bring hell and death.

 

[interpreter]

That is where many ERR. They THINK that this world will be WON by God through His Son. The Bible DOES NOT OFFER such a scenario. The Bible tells us that this VERY WORLD will be DESTROYED by 'fervent HEAT' to the point that it's very elements will be MELTED. And a NEW world will be 'created'.

This world BELONGS to Satan. He is the PRINCE of 'this world' and Christ doesn't have ANY desire for it. Didn't have ANY desire FOR it when He was HERE, and has NO MORE desire for it NOW. Only a FEW OF THE PEOPLE matter. The rest are going to merely be fodder for the FIRE. When grain was harvested by HAND back then, there was ALWAYS much more FODDER at the end than the actual 'grain'.

Satan WON this 'world' during the event in the garden. Maybe from the moment he was 'cast down' to Earth it became HIS. When he was able to convince Eve to disobey, he certainly brought about men being BORN sinners. In THAT respect, he most assuredly WON.

And he's been WINNING ever since. Just LOOK around you and it's pretty PLAIN to see. When men reach the point that they would run around BRAGGING about how they would 'rather rule in hell than serve in heaven', I believe that it's pretty OBVIOUS what STATE their 'hearts' are in. When men would rather spend their wealth on ocean 'cruises' and 'wine tasting conventions' rather than helping each other, it pretty much SUMS up what's TRULY in their hearts. And when men designing weapons to use against each other or to sell to those with the intent to use them on each other, CLAIM to be 'Christians', such things just go to SHOW exactly the STATE of crisis 'this world' has reached.

Yes, we have been assured that there would ALWAYS remain an 'remnant'. But being skilled in Sheetrock installation, I can ASSURE YOU, that the REMNANTS that I leave behind are but a TINY portion of that which is USED. Or when I put down carpet, what is left and considered 'remnants' are MERELY that: small SCRAPS that wouldn't cover five square feet.

So, to some 'remnant' may be a LARGE number or amount. But to ME, it is a miniscule amount that is LEFT OVER. Not enough to use for ANYTHING. Not WASTED. But a necessary PART of the FACT that EVERYTHING is shaped differently and it ALWAYS demands that a small amount be discarded in order to MAKE the REST fit.

And the Bible USES the word 'remnant'. An indication that even the 'churches' would EVENTUALLY be LED astray and ONLY a "REMNANT" would REMAIN.

Couple this with the words that God will be FORCED to 'cut the days short' or even the VERY ELECT would be 'led astray' and we have something serious to contemplate. A time at the END when even God's very ELECT are exposed to influence that is capable of leading them astray. So what does that say about the REST of US, (unless, of course, you are a Calvanist).

Blessings,

MEC

Wrong. Since 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, Jesus has ruled the earth through Christian nations. The US, founded by George Washington who rode a pale horse, is the 4th Christian superpower to rule the earth. Our weapons bring hell and death.