What if we have ALL been 'duped'?

[Hillsage]

So, If you can get past salt,

Sorry, I can't. It never was about wages and salt for me. It was about what you said in post 63;

"Constantine was not a Christian, no Christian participated in war or engaged in it even politically.
"The many early Christians accepted the injunctions of the Sermon on the Mount quite literally is certain and their attitude brought them into much the same kind of conflict with the Roman authorities which conscientious objectors of our own time face in dealing with the military authority."

The scriptural admonition from John, which I posted, was concerning his words as to being a soldier. Do you think they agree with the above posted comments. That was all I was referring to in my question. I wasn't really sure that I thought they did.

So, what is your take on this one?
Act 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan [ the accuser] has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.

My 'take' is, it's amazing that most church pews aren't filled with a lot of 'dead people'. One might even say; It appears that God isn't "always the same". But that's not really my 'take'. My 'take' is that God has never changed in regard to His original purpose for His creation, even though His actions in 'how' He deals with us now, apparently have. I'd also say the 'tempt-or' may not just be the 'tempt-ee'. In deliverance ministry we had a saying; "You can't cast out the flesh, and you can't crucify a spirit."

YLT Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, 'Simon, Simon, lo, the Adversary/Satanas did ask/'demanded to have' you for himself to sift as the wheat,

Jesus cast out demons from the demoniac who was literally not in his right mind because of them.

Not sure what you were wanting to hear, but this is what I'm giving.

 

[Angelquill]

I know, YOU know YOU haven't been. But what IF? Let's examine the EVIDENCE.

I have been debating theology, (Bible based), on internet 'Christian Forums' for about 10 years or so. And in ALL these years, I have YET to find just TWO PEOPLE that are in agreement when it comes to what they BELIEVE according to the Bible.

Now that's TEN YEARS and coming in contact with literally HUNDREDS of different people, and EVERY ONE OF THEM with a DIFFERENT understanding when it comes to the Bible.

Yes, I have found that SOME have SOME common understanding, but NEVER have I found TWO people, out of TEN years and hundreds of people, not TWO individuals with the SAME theology.

How is that POSSIBLE? If ALL these are claiming to KNOW the SAME God through His Son, Jesus Christ, how is it even REMOTELY POSSIBLE that they are ALL following DIFFERENT understanding?

Unless, they, we, are ALL duped into a 'false sense' of KNOWLEDGE? Unless EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US is following something OTHER THAN what we BELIEVE we are following?

For it would ONLY STAND TO REASON that there would certainly be at least TWO persons following the SAME understanding if the whole concept is based on a SINGLE God with a SINGLE purpose.

If God is the same today as yesterday and tomorrow, HOW CAN there be SO MANY DIFFERENT understandings of this "ONE GOD"? In my opinion, it's an IMPOSSIBILITY. If there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, then there is ONLY ONE TRUE understanding of that God as HE HAS REVEALED HIMSELF. He is certainly not the TRUTH if He reveals Himself ONE way to ONE person and a DIFFERENT way to another.

So if we RULE OUT that which is IMPOSSIBLE and focus on what IS possible, the ONLY logical conclusion is that we are ALL WRONG. If there are not even TWO OF US able to come to 'the same' understanding, then obviously what we are ALL following is something 'other than the TRUTH'.

And here is HOW I believe it has taken place....................

Throughout the ENTIRE New Testament, Jesus and the apostles offered us a TON of instruction concerning MONEY. We are told at one point that it is IMPOSSIBLE to follow TWO masters.

We are also told that there would be MANY that would BRAG to Christ 'in that day' of all the wonderful 'things' they had done IN HIS NAME. But in the reality of the situation, HE NEVER EVEN KNEW THEM. They were 'workers of inequity'. And if He never knew THEM, then that means that THEY NEVER KNEW HIM. They were 'just using His NAME'.

We are told that the 'LOVE of money is THE ROOT of ALL EVIL'.

Let us examine what the word "MONEY" means.

It obviously isn't ONLY a reference to coins or pieces of paper. For pieces of paper weren't even USED as currency at the time of Christ.

We see that EVIL existed LONG before men began to create COINS. For there was a time that 'barter' was the ONLY form of trade.

So that means that the word 'money', as used in the Bible, means something much DEEPER than mere 'currency' so far as coins or paper.

What 'money' REALLY MEANS is WEALTH. Something of VALUE. ANYTHING of 'value'.

To the farmer it would be what he produced. To the laborer it would be his labor. To the King it would be His subjects and his dominion. To the Judge it would be HIS POSITION. To the artist, his art. To the doctor, his skill to heal. To the priest, his relationship to God.

The indication is that 'money' means nothing other than: that which we HOLD dear in our HEARTS. That which we LOVE. The 'thing' or 'things' that bring us pleasure or sustenance. Basically what we LIVE FOR.

So in this context, it could even mean GOD Himself. God could BE the ONE THING that someone holds MOST dear in their hearts to the point that even their very sustenance takes a BACK SEAT to their RELATIONSHIP with God.

And EVERY indication offered in the Bible is that we are SUPPOSE to place GOD FIRST in our heart, mind and soul. We are to LOVE God MORE than each other, more than the very air we breath. More than our families or children or even ourselves.

In 53 years, I can TRULY SAY that I have YET to meet a SINGLE PERSON that I BELIEVE loves God MORE than ANYTHING else. Not ONE PERSON who places GOD before EVERYTHING ELSE in their lives. And don't get me WRONG, I have included MYSELF in 'not a SINGLE PERSON'. For it is ONLY through my OWN understanding that I am able to offer what I am offering here.

Do I BELIEVE that I LOVE God? Sure. Do I believe I KNOW God. Absolutely. But do I LIVE UP to ALL that the Bible offers that is REQUIRED to be able to answer EITHER of these questions in TRUTH? NOT EVEN CLOSE.

In my 53 years I have met some people that I would call 'good people' and I have met MANY MORE that I would call 'bad people'. But in ALL the people I have EVER MET, when judging them according to RIGHTEOUSNESS as OUTLINED in the Bible, I have YET TO MEET A SINGLE ONE who's UNRIGHTEOUSNESS didn't outweigh their RIGHTEOUSNESS a thousand to ONE or MORE.

So my point is: what IF? What IF in the two thousand years since Christ, we, the WORLD as a WHOLE, has been DUPED, (fooled by Satan), into BELIEVING that which is utterly FALSE? We have been LURED into BELIEVING whatever we WANT to believe and have USED that as our means of justification? What if we have ALL 'fallen' that the EXACT same manner as Eve in the garden? We have allowed Satan to convince us that HE is God and that we can PICK and CHOOSE what we WANT to believe so far as the Bible is concerned. And our UNDERSTANDING of the Bible is based on what WE WANT to believe instead of what is actually offered?

It would certainly EXPLAIN why EVERYONE has a DIFFERENT belief system and no TWO are ALIKE. It would certainly explain WHY God is going to DESTROY the very EARTH itself and START OVER with a NEW Earth. It would certainly explain how in the END there are ONLY GOING TO BE TWO WITNESSES that the REST of the world is going to LOOK upon in disdain as they lay in the street. And it would certainly explain the current situation where EVERYONE believes that things should be THEIR WAY instead of THE way outlined in The Bible.

I can still remember my initial response to the movie 'The Matrix' when it first came out. Morpheus explaining to Neo in the beginning. And Neo's response when the ultimate truth was revealed. DENIAL. "LET ME OUT" he exclaimed when he actually realized what Morpheus was saying. "NO WAY. THIS JUST CAN'T BE". No different than the response will be HERE to the words I am offering. "NO WAY. This just CAN'T BE". And isn't that EXACTLY what Satan would LIKE our response to be if what I am saying is the TRUTH? For Satan's most proficient weapon against us is DENIAL. Teaching us to DENY the truth and follow something "DIFFERENT" instead.

Just like the manner in which he DUPED Eve in the garden, he convinced her to DENY the TRUTH of God and follow 'his' truth instead. By simply offering her her hearts desire, he was able to convince her that what God had offered didn't MATTER. Was able to convince her that what SHE WANTED was MORE important than what GOD wanted FOR her. Until her eyes were OPENED. It was ONLY THEN that she realized the mistake she had made.

But what if OUR eyes NEVER become OPENED enough to SEE the TRUTH?

And that is EXACTLY how I see EVERYONE I have EVER MET. Willing to alter whatever truth that's offered in the Bible in order to HAVE what they WANT. Doing whatever it takes to make the Bible FIT their DESIRES.

And that is WHY I believe every single person I have ever MET has a DIFFERENT understanding'. For everyone's DESIRES differ even if ever so slightly. And when they read the Bible, they IGNORE or alter those parts they don't LIKE and form their understanding based on their DESIRES instead of what is actually WRITTEN on it's pages. Once again, DENIAL of those parts they DON'T LIKE. So they simply ignore or alter them to suit themselves.

Now, BEFORE you attack my words through DENIAL, just remember what I have already stated, "Satan's most SUCCESSFUL TOOL that he uses against us is teaching us to DENY the TRUTH". For that is EXACTLY what he convinced Eve to DO in the garden. DENY the TRUTH of God and accept his truth instead. And the REASON was that HIS truth appeased HER desires more than the TRUTH as offered by God. Her flesh convinced HER that SHE deserved MORE. And Satan's encouragement was all it took to persuade her to DO exactly what she had been told NOT TO DO for the sake of her OWN flesh's desires.

And isn't that what EVERY ONE of us is DOING today? Trying to convince ourselves that we are righteous when almost EVERYTHING we DO is unrighteous? When we GIVE it is to make ourselves FEEL better about ourselves, (and that is according to those that DO give. How many will leave their 'churches' today and see someone begging for money and IGNORE THEM? Heck, how many have FAMILY members in NEED that they will REFUSE to help? How many have close friends that are struggling but won't lift a FINGER to help. Scared of GIVING UP any PORTION of their WEALTH in order to HELP those in NEED? But convincing themselves of their OWN righteousness).

So, TELL ME how WRONG I am. Tell me that YOU KNOW God and you are placing Him FIRST in your life. As you spend MORE time today watching TV than devotion to God or ANYONE in your life. Tell me that it is ME that is confused as you try DESPERATELY to convince me and others of your RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Nope. I believe that I have finally found the ANSWER I have been seeking for YEARS. The REASON that no TWO people I have EVER KNOWN are in agreement concerning God's Word is that that I have YET to meet TWO PEOPLE that are ACTUALLY following it. They are following the BITS and PIECES that don't get 'in the way' of their TRUE LUSTS.

I am a 'carpenter' by trade. And one of my skills is painting. And having done this for over thirty years, there is ONE thing that I have come to realize, EVERY shade of WHITE is DIFFERENT. Ten different manufacturers make ten DIFFERENT shades of WHITE. Even among their own brands, there may be five or six DIFFERENT shades of WHITE. But they ALL call their own blend: WHITE.

And if I were to show you any one of the different cans, you would look at it and say it's WHITE. But if I were to take two different cans and paint them next to each other on the same wall, you would then ask me, "Why did you use a DIFFERENT color on one side than the other. Yet EACH was LABELED 'WHITE'.

Matthew 7:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Note that in this scripture it does NOT offer that there are MANY DIFFERENT paths. It states 'strait is THE gate and narrow is THE way which leadeth unto life................... THE gate and THE way. The use of the word THE is SINGULAR, not PLURAL.


My point? I have witnesses THOUSANDS of people who CLAIM to be 'followers' of Christ. Yet I have YET to meet TWO that followed in the SAME MANNER. They all CALL themselves 'Christians', but EACH follows a DIFFERENT path. Is that REALLY possible? Or is each merely being DUPED into BELIEVING that they are on the 'proper path'? I wonder....................

Blessings,

MEC

So, what does it mean to be a Christian?
Jesus, Who ought to know, said that men would know His disciples by the love that they have for one another.
So, we know that a Christian will be a loving individual.
He said that He would leave us His peace, which passes understanding.
So we know that a Christian will have peace in his/her heart.
He commanded us to love even as He loves...to love our enemies.
So we know that a Christian will be someone who has compassion for others, as He did, Himself.

We must remember a couple of things. First, we must never forget that we are all sinners...every single mother's child of us. We don't like to think of ourselves as sinners, but God says we are. From the guy in the pulpit to the kids in the last row stuffing candy under the cushions and hoping no one sees, even to the bum on the street outside...every one is a sinner.
We must remember, too, that the human heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.
We can't get it perfect, because we aren't perfect.
The best thing we can do is to read and study our scriptures daily...searching them constantly to find what is true. We must be like those ancient Bereans.
The truth isn't going to just drop into our laps. We must chase after it. We must desire it above all things...the search for the truth must be the driving force of our lives. We must pant after it the way a thirsty deer pants for water...

 

[Angelquill]

Something else to think about is that some Christians are further along in their walk than others. We must grow in our faith, and as we do, we learn.
It will be hard for the observer to know just who is where and what God may have revealed to that one that He has not yet whispered into this one's ear.

Anyway, good luck on your journey.
I hope you find what you are looking for.
If you ever do find two that agree, please give me a holler.
I've been looking since the days of Yahoo chat...that was a long, long time ago.

 

[Imagican]

Something else to think about is that some Christians are further along in their walk than others. We must grow in our faith, and as we do, we learn.
It will be hard for the observer to know just who is where and what God may have revealed to that one that He has not yet whispered into this one's ear.

Anyway, good luck on your journey.
I hope you find what you are looking for.
If you ever do find two that agree, please give me a holler.
I've been looking since the days of Yahoo chat...that was a long, long time ago.

Oh my, someone that agrees with at least a "PART" of what I offered.

I read your first post as well. I THINK we are in agreement with what you offered.

While NO one is BORN perfect, we are commanded to COME to a 'perfect understanding' of LOVE.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I don't THINK that this means that we are to live 'SIN FREE', (which you and I AGREE is an IMPOSSIBILITY). So that means it must have a DIFFERENT meaning. I BELIEVE that it means we are to share our love with God and each other AS HE shares His love with US. That means WITHOUT letting 'things' get in the way.

I appreciate your post. It is ALWAYS refreshing to find someone else that actually HEARS what we have to say and even MORE refreshing to find those that are actually in agreement, (even if not COMPLETE agreement).

Where we may differ is in your optimism that SOME 'may not have been duped'. While I like to THINK that I have NOT, at times, I can't help but face the FACTS and the FACTS would dictate that if I were on the CORRECT PATH I would be LIVING my life DIFFERENTLY.

For I struggle DAILY with TRYING to love my neighbor AS myself. And sometimes I don't REALLY even LOVE myself. For if we DO things that are CONTRARY to what is BEST for ourselves, to me, that shows a DEFINITE lack of LOVE. And if we DO NOT love ourselves as we are SUPPOSE to, then how are we suppose to SHARE that EXACT SAME LOVE with OTHERS?

So what is IT that is 'in the way'? Why am I NOT placing my love in GOD FIRST and myself second and then sharing that love with my neighbors AS I have been instructed? There MUST be an answer.

And the ONLY conclusion I have been able to obtain is what I have offered. What IF? What IF we have ALL been DUPED into a LACK of ability to SEE and FOLLOW the TRUTH? What if we have ALL been TRAINED by the 'world around us' to FOLLOW IT, (the world), instead of God? What if we have ALL been trained to LOVE MONEY, place our FAITH in money, and BELIEVE that MONEY is the answer to all our problems or desires?

For WHICH among us, if told to do so, would SELL EVERYTHING we OWN and give the money to the POOR and TRULY follow in Christ's footsteps?

So many seem to INSIST that ALL the words of the Bible pertain to ALL OF US. If that is TRUE, then the words that Christ offered to the young RICH man would apply to each and every one of us. And ALL indications are that the ONLY things that the young RICH man wasn't DOING that he SHOULD have been DOING is SHARING what he possessed with those less fortunate.

Yet when he ASKED what 'else' he NEEDED to do to receive what Christ was offering, when given the answer, he walked AWAY in sorrow.

Which among us wouldn't DO THE SAME. If told to SELL ALL that we possess and THEN follow Christ, how many of US WOULDN'T 'walk away in sorrow' AS WELL? And Christ instructed him to DO THIS FIRST, sell everything, give the money to the poor, AND THEN come and follow.

So you see, I have NOT approached this matter with ANY understanding. I have studied the Bible for MANY MANY years. I have STUDIED MYSELF for many many years. I have studied OTHERS for many many years. That is what has LED me to the possibility of the conclusion I have offered here.

At a TIME when we are in the position to DO MORE than EVER, we seem to be doing MUCH less than we have been instructed. It seems that even those that we consider to be the BEST are far far from being even CLOSE to what we have been instructed we SHOULD BE.

We have the Catholic Church with ALL IT'S RICHES 'gained from the backs of it's congregation'. Vatican City being possibly EQUAL to MONACO or DUBAI in it's RICHNESS. Pastors living ABOVE the means of the congregations off the BACKS of the PEOPLE. And the PEOPLE themselves intent upon GAINING as MUCH 'riches' as they possibly can in order to HAVE MORE THINGS in their lives. This certain runs CONTRARY to EVERYTHING I have come to understand that the Bible offers.

Christ didn't even have a 'place to lay His head'. And we are instructed to FOLLOW in His footsteps. That we are to OVERCOME the LURE of riches and we are to SHARE whatever we possess with those less fortunate. I don't SEE it in the 'Christian Community'.

Yes, there are the POOR, and MAYBE that is the ANSWER. Maybe they are the LUCKY ONES. For maybe THEY are the ONLY ones that have not been corrupted COMPLETELY by 'riches'. And MAYBE there just AREN'T any that are TRULY poor here on the forums. While I consider myself to be 'poor', compared to TRUE poverty, I am MUCH richer than MOST of those considered to be RICH during the time of Christ.


There MUST be 'an answer'. There MUST be 'some REASON' that we are FAIRING so POORLY when we compare what we have been INSTRUCTED to DO to that which we DO, DO. And so far, the conclusion I have been led to BELIEVE is that we have ALL been DUPED into a FALSE SENSE of the TRUTH. We have ALL been led to believe that a FALSE path is the TRUTH path.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

Sorry, I can't. It never was about wages and salt for me. It was about what you said in post 63;"Constantine was not a Christian, no Christian participated in war or engaged in it even politically. "The many early Christians accepted the injunctions of the Sermon on the Mount quite literally is certain and their attitude brought them into much the same kind of conflict with the Roman authorities which conscientious objectors of our own time face in dealing with the military authority." The scriptural admonition from John, which I posted, was concerning his words as to being a soldier. Do you think they agree with the above posted comments. That was all I was referring to in my question. I wasn't really sure that I thought they did.

Yes, John said no one should use violence! Timothy spells it out for you:
1Ti 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

You cannot be a soldier of Christ and obey the commandments and be a soldier in the armies of this world.
2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

My 'take' is, it's amazing that most church pews aren't filled with a lot of 'dead people'. One might even say; It appears that God isn't "always the same". But that's not really my 'take'. My 'take' is that God has never changed in regard to His original purpose for His creation, even though His actions in 'how' He deals with us now, apparently have. I'd also say the 'tempt-or' may not just be the 'tempt-ee'. In deliverance ministry we had a saying; "You can't cast out the flesh, and you can't crucify a spirit."
YLT Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, 'Simon, Simon, lo, the Adversary/Satanas did ask/'demanded to have' you for himself to sift as the wheat,

The sames as
Job 19:6 Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.
11 He [God] hath also kindled his wrath against me, and he counteth me unto him as one of his enemies.

GNB Luk 22:31 "Simon, Simon! Listen! Satan/adversary has received permission to test all of you, to separate the good from the bad, as a farmer separates the wheat from the chaff.

YLT Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, `Simon, Simon, lo, the Adversary did ask you for himself to sift as the wheat,
sift: Heb. cause to move; yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. Amos 9:9

Jesus cast out demons from the demoniac who was literally not in his right mind because of them.

Not sure what you were wanting to hear, but this is what I'm giving.

Yes, demons are a metaphor "not meant literally but by means of a vivid comparison expresses something about him" of the many mental disorders. Bing Dictionary
Mar 5:15 And they came to Jesus, and viewed the one having been possessed, sitting, and having been clothed, and free from having many mental disorders: and they feared.

 

[BukiRob]

Yes, John said no one should use violence! Timothy spells it out for you:
1Ti 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

You cannot be a soldier of Christ and obey the commandments and be a soldier in the armies of this world.
2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds The sames as
Job 19:6 Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.
11 He [God] hath also kindled his wrath against me, and he counteth me unto him as one of his enemies.

GNB Luk 22:31 "Simon, Simon! Listen! Satan/adversary has received permission to test all of you, to separate the good from the bad, as a farmer separates the wheat from the chaff.

YLT Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, `Simon, Simon, lo, the Adversary did ask you for himself to sift as the wheat,
sift: Heb. cause to move; yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. Amos 9:9 Yes, demons are a metaphor "not meant literally but by means of a vivid comparison expresses something about him" of the many mental disorders. Bing Dictionary
Mar 5:15 And they came to Jesus, and viewed the one having been possessed, sitting, and having been clothed, and free from having many mental disorders: and they feared.

So, Yeshua cast out metaphorical demons.... Sorry, but that is not what scripture says.

 

[Hillsage]

Yes, John said no one should use violence! Timothy spells it out for you:
1Ti 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

1TI 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Since the context of your verse and my verse above are in regards to elders and ministry, I consider the meaning of your verse differently. I look at it in regard to laying on of hands for an 'impartation to the ministry', and not slapping someone on the head.

I personally experienced abuse in this area IMO. When still very young in the Lord we joined a church and 'shortly' thereafter I was given the job of teaching High School Sunday school as well as leading the youth group. A job which I was zealous to do, but should have never been given because of my spiritual immaturity. They "laid hands too speedily" IMO.

Thanks for your input.

The sames as
Job 19:6 Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.
11 He [God] hath also kindled his wrath against me, and he counteth me unto him as one of his enemies.

GNB Luk 22:31 "Simon, Simon! Listen! Satan/adversary has received permission to test all of you, to separate the good from the bad, as a farmer separates the wheat from the chaff.

YLT Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, `Simon, Simon, lo, the Adversary did ask you for himself to sift as the wheat,
sift: Heb. cause to move; yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. Amos 9:9

Yes, demons are a metaphor "not meant literally but by means of a vivid comparison expresses something about him" of the many mental disorders. Bing Dictionary
Mar 5:15 And they came to Jesus, and viewed the one having been possessed, sitting, and having been clothed, and free from having many mental disorders: and they feared.

So now I'm curious. Do you believe that angels are ministering spirits? If so do you believe 1/3 of the angels are on the opposing sides in our experience?

 

[Angelquill]

Oh my, someone that agrees with at least a "PART" of what I offered.

I know what you mean. The internet can be a rough place to play.

I read your first post as well. I THINK we are in agreement with what you offered.

While NO one is BORN perfect, we are commanded to COME to a 'perfect understanding' of LOVE.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I don't THINK that this means that we are to live 'SIN FREE', (which you and I AGREE is an IMPOSSIBILITY). So that means it must have a DIFFERENT meaning. I BELIEVE that it means we are to share our love with God and each other AS HE shares His love with US. That means WITHOUT letting 'things' get in the way.

Exactly. Someone else pointed out to me recently that God wants us to love Him. Evidently, God humbled this person to the point that he thought of himself as the church "low life", in order to get him to understand just how much He desires our love. I have to admit, I don't follow that reasoning, but evidently God knew what this person needed to bring him to the great truth that God desires our love more than anything we might give Him.
While Jesus taught us many truths, there is only one time in scripture that He gave us a command. What was so important to the Son of God that He phrased it as a command? I think you know, don't you? He commanded us to love one another. "As I have loved you," He said. And we know that His love for us took Him from Heaven to live among us as one of us...it took Him to the cross. Now, I'm not saying that we all ought to go and get crucified...what I am saying is that we should put our whole hearts into our love for others...like the Samaritan who found his enemy beaten and bloody on the side of the road...and gave his all to help him. "Go and do thou likewise," says the Lord of Life.

I appreciate your post. It is ALWAYS refreshing to find someone else that actually HEARS what we have to say and even MORE refreshing to find those that are actually in agreement, (even if not COMPLETE agreement).

Where we may differ is in your optimism that SOME 'may not have been duped'. While I like to THINK that I have NOT, at times, I can't help but face the FACTS and the FACTS would dictate that if I were on the CORRECT PATH I would be LIVING my life DIFFERENTLY.

For I struggle DAILY with TRYING to love my neighbor AS myself. And sometimes I don't REALLY even LOVE myself. For if we DO things that are CONTRARY to what is BEST for ourselves, to me, that shows a DEFINITE lack of LOVE. And if we DO NOT love ourselves as we are SUPPOSE to, then how are we suppose to SHARE that EXACT SAME LOVE with OTHERS?

So what is IT that is 'in the way'? Why am I NOT placing my love in GOD FIRST and myself second and then sharing that love with my neighbors AS I have been instructed? There MUST be an answer.

And the ONLY conclusion I have been able to obtain is what I have offered. What IF? What IF we have ALL been DUPED into a LACK of ability to SEE and FOLLOW the TRUTH? What if we have ALL been TRAINED by the 'world around us' to FOLLOW IT, (the world), instead of God? What if we have ALL been trained to LOVE MONEY, place our FAITH in money, and BELIEVE that MONEY is the answer to all our problems or desires?

I do see where you're coming from here. From the time we are tiny, the world teaches us to value material things. We do need certain things, like food and clothing, and most of us do need somewhere to lay our heads. However, we do not need to hoard more than we need or will ever use. It has been my contention for some time that this is why so many in the world must do without. It isn't that there aren't enough resources in the world that God created for all of us...it is that a few are hoarding them, keeping the rest from enjoying them. We may need to eat, but we don't need cupboards and freezers stuffed with more food than our families can eat in a year, we may need to cover our nakedness, but we don't need to pay fantastic prices for a big name on the tag, we may need shelter, but we don't need huge houses stuffed so much junk that we can't keep track of it all. The "American Dream" is the rest of the world's nightmare.

 

[Angelquill]

For WHICH among us, if told to do so, would SELL EVERYTHING we OWN and give the money to the POOR and TRULY follow in Christ's footsteps?

So many seem to INSIST that ALL the words of the Bible pertain to ALL OF US. If that is TRUE, then the words that Christ offered to the young RICH man would apply to each and every one of us. And ALL indications are that the ONLY things that the young RICH man wasn't DOING that he SHOULD have been DOING is SHARING what he possessed with those less fortunate.

Yet when he ASKED what 'else' he NEEDED to do to receive what Christ was offering, when given the answer, he walked AWAY in sorrow.

Which among us wouldn't DO THE SAME. If told to SELL ALL that we possess and THEN follow Christ, how many of US WOULDN'T 'walk away in sorrow' AS WELL? And Christ instructed him to DO THIS FIRST, sell everything, give the money to the poor, AND THEN come and follow.

Here, I think, is the perfect example of how Jesus meets each of us where we are. The rich young ruler in this example was, like so many of us, too attached to his "stuff", an Jesus knew it.
But did He ask all of His followers to "sell all that they had"?
We know that when He called Matthew, he left a table full of tax money behind, and got up and went after Him.
We know that Peter left his fishing boat...or did he? Didn't Jesus often preach from that boat? There was that great catch of fish...and weren't they fishing when Jesus appeared to them after His death on the shore of the lake?
And Peter also had a house. He didn't sell his house and give all the money to the poor...if he had, where would his mother in law have lived?
There were the women who followed Jesus, supporting His ministry with their own money. I suppose one could say, in their case, that they were giving their money away...but do you think that they had houses? Or did those ladies sleep in the open the way the guys did?
Jesus and the apostles even had a money bag of their own. Remember...Judas carried it, and there was some idea that he had been stealing from it, although it's a bit vague.

So you see, I have NOT approached this matter with ANY understanding. I have studied the Bible for MANY MANY years. I have STUDIED MYSELF for many many years. I have studied OTHERS for many many years. That is what has LED me to the possibility of the conclusion I have offered here.

I've been studying the Bible since I was 12 years old. (I'm 63) And, as the Mom of seven, now grown, with kids and grandkids of their own, I guess you could say I've been a student of human nature for a good bit of my life.

At a TIME when we are in the position to DO MORE than EVER, we seem to be doing MUCH less than we have been instructed. It seems that even those that we consider to be the BEST are far far from being even CLOSE to what we have been instructed we SHOULD BE.

But we know that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags.

We have the Catholic Church with ALL IT'S RICHES 'gained from the backs of it's congregation'. Vatican City being possibly EQUAL to MONACO or DUBAI in it's RICHNESS. Pastors living ABOVE the means of the congregations off the BACKS of the PEOPLE. And the PEOPLE themselves intent upon GAINING as MUCH 'riches' as they possibly can in order to HAVE MORE THINGS in their lives. This certain runs CONTRARY to EVERYTHING I have come to understand that the Bible offers.

It is contrary to everything that the Bible teaches.

Christ didn't even have a 'place to lay His head'. And we are instructed to FOLLOW in His footsteps. That we are to OVERCOME the LURE of riches and we are to SHARE whatever we possess with those less fortunate. I don't SEE it in the 'Christian Community'.

And yet, I have met individual Christians who have shared their homes with me. Raising seven kids alone (a drunk driver took our daddy away from us before the baby was out of diapers, and there was no insurance), I have known what it is to be truly destitute. I have reason to thank God for Christians like Ms. Reynolds, for instance, who took me and my brood into her home and took care of us while I was still reeling from the shock of suddenly becoming a widow. It hadn't dawned on me just yet what a huge job was ahead of me, but this wonderful lady knew I would need help. She got me enrolled in a city college, where I got a degree that let me go to work in a law office and earn enough money for us to "get by". We probably would have done much better if I had not developed a case of wanderlust...I dragged my family all over the continental U.S. looking for a place where I thought I could "belong". I still haven't found it...

Yes, there are the POOR, and MAYBE that is the ANSWER. Maybe they are the LUCKY ONES. For maybe THEY are the ONLY ones that have not been corrupted COMPLETELY by 'riches'. And MAYBE there just AREN'T any that are TRULY poor here on the forums. While I consider myself to be 'poor', compared to TRUE poverty, I am MUCH richer than MOST of those considered to be RICH during the time of Christ.


There MUST be 'an answer'. There MUST be 'some REASON' that we are FAIRING so POORLY when we compare what we have been INSTRUCTED to DO to that which we DO, DO. And so far, the conclusion I have been led to BELIEVE is that we have ALL been DUPED into a FALSE SENSE of the TRUTH. We have ALL been led to believe that a FALSE path is the TRUTH path.

I have always been fond of saying that, if you are following a crowd, you are going in the wrong direction

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And that's where I got that saying.

Blessings,

MEC

Blessings back atcha, my friend.

 

[Angelquill]

See what it says, there, at the top of the forum?
"Where two or three are gathered in My name," says the Prince of Peace, "there I am in the midst of them."

 

[he-man]

So now I'm curious. Do you believe that angels are ministering spirits? If so do you believe 1/3 of the angels are on the opposing sides in our experience?

NO! Nothing can oppose God who says:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.

Nah 1:7 The LORD is good; he protects his people in times of trouble; he takes care of those who turn to him.
8 Like a great rushing flood he completely destroys his enemies; he sends to their death those who oppose him.

Angels cannot sin and the belief in anything that could oppose God would be overly Polythestic and borrowed from pagans.

"Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: ." Ps. 104:4

1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer

[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Destroyer mαshchith', Εxοd. Xii, 23; ολοθρευτου 1 Cοr. x, 10), αn exterminator (see Βromel, De ángelï exterminátore, Jeri. 1685; also in the Τhesαur. theol. philοlog. V. Τ. i, 301 sq.). See DΕΑΤH.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]The Hebrews were accustomed by a figure to speak οf any superhuman agency as that οf an angel (see Bush, Note οn Exοd. iii, 2); and whenever this had a providential aspect it was attributed to a diνine messenger (2 Kings xix, 35; 2 Sam. xxiν, 15, 16; Psα. lxxνiii, 49; Acts xii, 23).[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Exo 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite.

[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. [/FONT]

Job 15:21 A dreadful sound is in his ears: in prosperity the destroyer shall come upon him. ​

Gen 13:10 And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar. 13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

[/FONT]Satan: Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied (1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4); (2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]).

The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known.

Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress. He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence no more than by the presence of other beings before the face of God. This view is also retained in Zech. iii. 1-2, where Satan is described as the adversary of the high priest Joshua, and of the people of God whose representative the hierarch is; and he there opposes the "angel of the Lord," who bids him be silent in the name of God.

In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity; but in I Chron. xxi. 1 he appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel.

The Angelology of the Talmud, moreover, proves that, according to the older view (until about 200 C.E.), punishment was inflicted by angels and not by Satan. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satan

There are angels militant, one of whom smites in one night the whole Assyrian army of 185,000 men (II Kings, xix. 35); messengers go forth from God "in ships to make the careless Ethiopians afraid" (Ezek. xxx. 9); the enemy is scattered before the angel like chaff (Ps. xxxv. 5, 6). Avenging angels are mentioned, such as the one in II Sam. xxiv. 15, who annihilates thousands.

They constitute God's court, sitting in council with him (I Kings, xxii. 19; Job, i. 6, ii. 1); hence they are called His "council of the holy ones" (Ps. lxxxix. 7, R. V.; A. V. "assembly of the saints"). They accompany God as His attendants when He appears to man (Deut. xxxiii. 2; Job, xxxviii. 7).

This conception was developed after the Exile; and in Zechariah angels of various shapes are delegated "to walk to and fro through the earth" in order to find out and report what happens (Zech. vi. 7). In the prophetic books angels also appear as representatives of the prophetic spirit, and bring to the prophets God's word. Thus the prophet Haggai was called God's messenger (angel); and it is known that "Malachi" is not a real name, but means "messenger" or "angel." It is noteworthy that in I Kings, xiii. 18, an angel brings the divine word to the prophet.

 

[Hillsage]

NO! Nothing can oppose God who says:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these.

I never said they 'opposed God'. I said they "opposed US".


So, I'm not dismissing all you quoted, I'm simply saying none of it seems to refute 'my question', which I'll post again with bold emphasis;

"So now I'm curious. Do you believe that angels are ministering spirits? If so do you believe 1/3 of the angels are on the opposing sides in our experience?

Angels cannot sin and the belief in anything that could oppose God would be overly Polythestic and borrowed from pagans.

"Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: ." Ps. 104:4

1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer

[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Destroyer mαshchith', Εxοd. Xii, 23; ολοθρευτου 1 Cοr. x, 10), αn exterminator (see Βromel, De ángelï exterminátore, Jeri. 1685; also in the Τhesαur. theol. philοlog. V. Τ. i, 301 sq.). See DΕΑΤH.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]The Hebrews were accustomed by a figure to speak οf any superhuman agency as that οf an angel (see Bush, Note οn Exοd. iii, 2); and whenever this had a providential aspect it was attributed to a diνine messenger (2 Kings xix, 35; 2 Sam. xxiν, 15, 16; Psα. lxxνiii, 49; Acts xii, 23).[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Exo 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite.

[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. [/FONT]

Job 15:21 A dreadful sound is in his ears: in prosperity the destroyer shall come upon him. ​

Gen 13:10 And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar. 13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

[/FONT]Satan: Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied (1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4); (2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]).

The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known.

Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress. He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence no more than by the presence of other beings before the face of God. This view is also retained in Zech. iii. 1-2, where Satan is described as the adversary of the high priest Joshua, and of the people of God whose representative the hierarch is; and he there opposes the "angel of the Lord," who bids him be silent in the name of God.

In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity; but in I Chron. xxi. 1 he appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel.

The Angelology of the Talmud, moreover, proves that, according to the older view (until about 200 C.E.), punishment was inflicted by angels and not by Satan. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satan

There are angels militant, one of whom smites in one night the whole Assyrian army of 185,000 men (II Kings, xix. 35); messengers go forth from God "in ships to make the careless Ethiopians afraid" (Ezek. xxx. 9); the enemy is scattered before the angel like chaff (Ps. xxxv. 5, 6). Avenging angels are mentioned, such as the one in II Sam. xxiv. 15, who annihilates thousands.

They constitute God's court, sitting in council with him (I Kings, xxii. 19; Job, i. 6, ii. 1); hence they are called His "council of the holy ones" (Ps. lxxxix. 7, R. V.; A. V. "assembly of the saints"). They accompany God as His attendants when He appears to man (Deut. xxxiii. 2; Job, xxxviii. 7).

This conception was developed after the Exile; and in Zechariah angels of various shapes are delegated "to walk to and fro through the earth" in order to find out and report what happens (Zech. vi. 7). In the prophetic books angels also appear as representatives of the prophetic spirit, and bring to the prophets God's word. Thus the prophet Haggai was called God's messenger (angel); and it is known that "Malachi" is not a real name, but means "messenger" or "angel." It is noteworthy that in I Kings, xiii. 18, an angel brings the divine word to the prophet.

I have to admit he-man as I've read through all this, I'm not as convinced as you, that it supports spirits/angels (good and bad) as not being agents used for/against US, even though both sides are still a part of God's sovereignty and His plan for redemption of His beloved creation.

 

[Imagican]

he man,

You made a statement that NOTHING can oppose God.

When YOU KNOW for a FACT that mere MORTALS can oppose God. If the angels are GIVEN 'free choice' as WE are given 'free choice', then there is absolutely NO REASON to believe that the angles CANNOT oppose God just as WE are capable of opposing God.

When Eve ate the fruit in the garden, her ACTION was in DIRECT opposition to God.

When Cain slew Abel, his action was in DIRECT opposition of God.

When men's hearts became EVIL continually, this was in DIRECT opposition to God.

When Egypt FORGOT what Joseph had done and what Pharaoh had promised the Hebrews, this was in DIRECT opposition to God.

When Satan became jealous or envious of God's Son and Their 'creation' of MANKIND, he rebelled, this was in direct opposition to God and the Bible STATES that a THIRD of the angels REBELLED as well.

Revelation 12:

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


I believe this should be ENOUGH for those reading it to come to the UNDERSTANDING that Satan EXISTS as an ENTITY that is continually referred to as a "HE". And the words STATE that he was CAST out of HEAVEN along WITH HIS ANGELS.


These are not MY words, he-man, they are STRAIGHT out of the Bible.


Now, combine THESE words with ALL others concerning Satan and demons etc............it paints a pretty VIVID picture.


Then, from MY perspective, I have already OPENLY admitted and offered WITNESS and TESTIMONY that there was a TIME in my life that Satan was MY GOD. Looking back, it is PERFECTLY CLEAR. Many of the CHOICES that I made and followed were NOT MY OWN. They were often IDEAS, (THOUGHTS), that CAME to me and I ENTERTAINED them. And the MORE I entertained them, the MORE POWER I gave up of MY OWN and turned it over to DEMONS.


I have READ the accounts. Over and over we can HEAR what men have said concerning their DEEDS.


ALL too often I have READ the accounts of those that STATE that when the committed their crimes, it was like they were standing OUTSIDE of their own bodies WATCHING themselves COMMIT atrocities the most vile. And then as soon as the DEED was OVER, they were BACK in their bodies wondering what had just taken place. And how many of these same people speak of hearing 'voices' TELLING them what to DO?



If I read of ONE man that offered this story, it would be EASY to dismiss it as lunacy. But when one reads HUNDREDS or even THOUSANDS of similar stories, and one has actually EXPERIENCED similar events, it then becomes QUITE DIFFICULT to just 'write it off' to "LUNACY". It THEN starts to take on a WHOLE new perspective. I HAVE EXPERIENCED SIMILAR events.



So, for you to start trying to 'hash' over words that you obviously HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED, only goes to SHOW that it is YOU that are confused, not others. For I KNOW what I KNOW. And it is EXPLAINED in the Bible. I KNOW what I have lived through. I KNOW what I have SEEN and DONE.


Now, how would YOU accept someone telling YOU that you don't REALLY KNOW what YOU KNOW? What would YOUR reaction be? Would you ACCEPT what they were telling you or would you simply believe they didn't KNOW what they were TALKING about. Well, that is EXACTLY the place you put yourself when you try to tell ME that Satan is NOT an 'entity' but merely a WORD. There is absolutely TOO much offered in the NEW TESTAMENT concerning DEMONS to be dismissed in any such manner. Christ cast out demons. He empowered the apostles to cast out demons. It states that Christ cast SEVEN demons out of Mary. Legion was possessed of THOUSANDS of demons. You tell us from you vast understanding of Greek and the MEANINGS of words offered in the Bible, what does LEGION mean?


You would have us believe that when a mother DROWNS her own child or shoots her son in the back of the head to 'save them', they these people are DOING these 'things' without ANY OUTSIDE INFLUENCE? That is UTTERLY contrary to the IMAGE in which we were created. I don't believe that man, (or woman), is CAPABLE of 'doing these THINGS' WITHOUT some sort of OUTSIDE influence.

Yes, our EVIL comes directly from our OWN hearts. The ACTS. But the IDEAS that are FOREIGN to man COME from SOMEWHERE.

Which among us hasn't had THOUGHTS that were SO foreign that they EMBARRASSED ourselves? For NO apparent REASON, a THOUGHT comes into our minds that is SO disgusting that we can't even believe it was OUR MIND that created it?

These is an ANSWER to this, folks. Such thoughts are NOT OUR OWN. Only when we ENTERTAIN them do they start to have ANY PART of ourselves. They are PLACED there. They are placed there by DEMONS TESTING US. SEEING if WE are a possible place to DWELL. And if we ENTERTAIN those THOUGHTS, we open the door for them for demons to DWELL within ourselves.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US has had THOUGHTS of HARMING others or even KILLING someone. But only FEW actually carry out those thoughts. WHY? Why are not ALL of us HURTING people and KILLING PEOPLE?

Because MOST of us DO NOT ENTERTAIN those thoughts. We DISMISS them. But some people ENTERTAIN those thoughts. And by DOING so relinquish a PART of their OWN control over to DEMONS. And once they become POWERFUL enough, they can LITERALLY control the ACTION of our BODIES.

It's IN THE BIBLE. The man said that a demon, (evil spirit), caused his son to FALL INTO THE FIRE or to FALL INTO THE WATER in an attempt to HARM his son.

The Bible says that Legion was running around like a lunatic, growling like an animal and cutting himself with stones. Attacking any one that came near him.

Mark 5:

2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.


Luke 8:




27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)
30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.


You can ignore or attempt to alter these words in any manner you choose. But the FACT remains, they are THERE. And there for a REASON. And we WITNESS this SAME sort of scenario TODAY. Jails, prisons and asylums are FULL of people JUST LIKE "Legion". Psychologists and Psychiatrists insist that they are just 'nuts'. But in TRUTH, which among us can SAY that it is NOT 'demon possession'? You know, if it LOOKS like a DUCK and QUACKS like a duck, it's probably a ...........................


And now we turn BACK to the topic at hand. What IF? What IF we have LOST the power to CAST out these DEMONS for the simple FACT that ALL have been DUPED into believing something FALSE. And by NOT following in TRUTH, there IS NO POWER. No ABILITY to DO those things that were possible for 'them that BELIEVE'?


So, instead of recognition of the TRUTH, our 'doctors' INSTEAD insist that it's a MEDICAL issue instead of a SPIRITUAL issue. For if NO ONE BELIEVES in truth, how are they going to REACT in TRUTH?


He-man, don't FEEL like the 'lone Ranger'. You are NOT the ONLY one that does NOT believe in Satan or his demons. I believe that LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of people have someone been DUPED into a 'false sense' that neither Satan OR his demons exist. And this simply adds EVIDENCE to my original claim: what if we have ALL been DUPED into following something that isn't the TRUTH?


How MANY of us, when WITNESSING those that DO THINGS that would INDICATE they are POSSESSED simply write it off as them being 'crazy' or having MENTAL PROBLEMS. How MANY are on MEDICATIONS because of DEPRESSION when in FACT, it may be a matter of being POSSESSED of DEMONS? How many do we READ about in the news almost EVERY DAY doing 'things' that would APPEAR to be INSANE? What IF, he-man, WHAT IF? What IF it is NOT a matter of INSANITY. What IF we have simply been DUPED into BELIEVING it's a matter of SANITY and instead is MERELY a matter of DEMON POSSESSION?


Christ says that 'in the end times', parents would be turning against their children and children would be turning against their parents. WHY? What will be the CAUSE? It won't JUST be 'something that happens'. There will be a REASON that it happens. DEMONS? DUPED? Satan manifest in ALL HIS GLORY?


I would say that the world is ALMOST READY to begin OUTRIGHT 'worshiping Satan' AS THEIR GOD. A generation or two at the present rate and WHO will be LEFT that we could TRULY call 'followers'?


So it ONLY stands to REASON that IF there were even JUST ONE OF US that was NOT possessed of demons, ALL the rest that ARE would be persecuting them DAY and NIGHT. For as in ALL cases when it comes to MEN, anyone that is DIFFERENT is to be a 'cast out' and 'persecuted'. Yet I don't SEE anyone BEING so persecuted. I don't SEE 'any one person' being ATTACKED by all the REST that may well be POSSESSED.


The Bible tells us that Jesus cast SEVEN demons out of Mary. SEVEN. Indicating SEVEN INDIVIDUAL demons. And ALL indications are that Mary was JUST an AVERAGE person. Nothing SPECTACULAR about HER or her behavior is offered. JUST that she was possessed of SEVEN demons at some time BEFORE they were 'cast out'.


If demons were SO prevalent BACK THEN, do you REALLY think things have somehow CHANGED? I would offer that THE change has been in IGNORANCE. Being DUPED into believing they DON'T exist.


And if YOU were a demon that desired CONTROL over your subject, would you WANT that subject to RECOGNIZE you? Of course NOT. For it's MUCH easier to influence someone that ISN'T even AWARE of the INFLUENCE than it is to influence someone WHO IS AWARE.


Blessings,


MEC

 

[GforPerplexed]

Yes, you have a point.

What if what you are saying is true. What if there is evidence to support your theory. Would it make a difference.

Just a few ideas:

Our understanding of the Christian God is taken from one source, the Bible. So you would think, as you have said, the understanding and /or message should be the same, regardless of the individual. It should be Universal and All should receive the same message.

Reality however depicts another truth, the truth in regards to our understanding of God and His relation to the Us, as you have described. Bare with Me.

What if we have been duped by the Beast and the Bible is the means by which it is possible, as we derive our knowledge of God from the Bible.

What if it were True.

What if Satan has Won the War.

Would it make a Difference even if People Understood the Truth.

Can they Change.

Imagican, I know you are listening from the information in your last post, I mean no disrespect and I mean no offence.

 

[Hillsage]

Our understanding of the Christian God is taken from one source, the Bible.

As a 'Christian believer' I must say, that's not been my 'experience'.

JOH 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

ROM 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Though I love the bible, more than any other book, I certainly am not 'soul bound' to it like so many in 'the church'.

Anyway, welcome to Christian Forums. I don't remember seeing the 'agnostic' icon here before. What brings you here? Were you always 'agnostic' or did you come to that 'place' following some other kind of religious experience?

 

[BukiRob]

Yes, you have a point.

What if what you are saying is true. What if there is evidence to support your theory. Would it make a difference.

Just a few ideas:

Our understanding of the Christian God is taken from one source, the Bible. So you would think, as you have said, the understanding and /or message should be the same, regardless of the individual. It should be Universal and All should receive the same message.

Reality however depicts another truth, the truth in regards to our understanding of God and His relation to the Universe, as you have described. Bare with Me.

What if we have been duped by the Beast and the Bible is the means by which it is possible, as we derive our knowledge of God from the Bible.

What if it were True.

What if Satan has Won the War.

Would it make a Difference even if People Understood the Truth.

Can they Change.

Imagican, I know you are listening from the information in your last post, I mean no disrespect and I mean no offence.

The Narrow and Wide Gates
Matthew 7:
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

A Tree and Its Fruit
15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will [k]know them by their fruits. [l]Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will [m]know them by their fruits.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
10 “I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind,
Even to give to each man according to his ways,
According to the fruits of his deeds.

Men prefer darkness over light. What was the first thing Adam and Eve did when their eyes were opened? They wanted to cover up their nakedness.

Mankind to this day still wants to hide his sin.

Satan is defeated and lost the war at Calvary. The lie he spreads is that Yeshua was just a man and of no consequence other than "being a nice guy who was sort of a prophet"

Yeshua rose from the dead holds the keys of death and the grave and is seated at the right hand of the Father awaiting the moment when the Father tells him it is time for him to gather his bride....

 

[GforPerplexed]

I make no apoligies for my words, but what if it were true.

I dont expect you to listen, take heed or change. I do not know any words from the Bible, it is just a mere point of discussion.

I will say however, if Satan has not won, why is the World as it is.

 

[BukiRob]

I make no apoligies for my words, but what if it were true.

I dont expect you to listen, take heth or change. I do not know any words from the Bible, it is just a mere point of discussion.

I will say however, if Satan has not won, why is the World as it is.

Your words are not true though. So there is no what if....

The world is the way it is because of rebellion. Few men (and women) are yielding themselves to G-d and his ways. The VAST majority of people have no interest or desire to submit to G-d and walk uprightly before G-d and behave as G-d says is a good way to live. Because 99% reject G-d they are slaves to their own fleshly lusts and desires. Living life that way is self destructive and rejects the notion that you are your bothers keeper.

Such rejection means that people live life largely by the motto of whats best for me is what matters most. This is the root of much of the destruction we see.

Man was created with the capacity for both good and evil. When he sinned by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that capacity for evil was activated.

Satan has been telling man since the beginning that G-d has lied to mankind.... that G-d is keeping that which is good from man...

What we have today is a world full of evil because man tends to almost always choose evil over good.

 

[GforPerplexed]

Good point.

Therfore, we can conclude that 99% follow Satan and 1% follow G.D. Hence Satan has Won the war or is Winning the War.

Should we not then ask, how does Satan project His will.

 

[he-man]

So, I'm not dismissing all you quoted, I'm simply saying none of it seems to refute 'my question', which I'll post again with bold emphasis;"So now I'm curious. Do you believe that angels are ministering spirits? If so do you believe 1/3 of the angels are on the opposing sides in our experience?

I have to admit he-man as I've read through all this, I'm not as convinced as you, that it supports spirits/angels (good and bad) as not being agents used for/against US, even though both sides are still a part of God's sovereignty and His plan for redemption of His beloved creation.

The quotes I gave show God is the only one who controls evil and therefore there are no 1/3 of any evil angels who could oppose our experiences.

James 1:14 tells us that we, our own selves, are responsible for anything that we do, good or bad.
Jas 1:14 But every one is tempted, drawn away, and enticed by his own lust;

So be careful least you think you can plot againt God.
Nah 1:9 What are you plotting against the LORD? He will destroy you. No one opposes him more than once.

The results are as plain as day, just as God tested Adam & Eve who disobeyed and God, not any bad angel, pronounced the sentence.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

You ask about bad angels and I replied, there are only Holy angels of God.

Mat 25:31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
I think you are turning things upside down and need to return to the "Old Paths".

Isa 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The Hebrews were accustomed by a figure to speak οf any superhuman agency as that οf an angel (see Bush, Note οn Exοd. iii, 2); and whenever this had a providential aspect it was attributed to a diνine messenger (2 Kings xix, 35; 2 Sam. xxiν, 15, 16; Psα. lxxνiii, 49; Acts xii, 23).

Samuel shows that the Lord hands out the evil needed to balance the good with the bad. How else can God test anyone if He is not in control?
2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word [satan] is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known.

They constitute God's court, sitting in council with him (I Kings, xxii. 19; Job, i. 6, ii. 1); hence they are called His "council of the holy ones" (Ps. lxxxix. 7, R. V.; A. V. "assembly of the saints"). They accompany God as His attendants when He appears to man (Deut. xxxiii. 2; Job,
xxxviii. 7).

Mat 25:31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: