What if we have ALL been 'duped'?

he-man · Aug 2, 2014

interpreter said:
And St. Constantine sent his messengers with a trumpet and gathered the elect of all the Church together, to Nicea.

First, Constantine moved to eliminate the external challenges posed by paganism, destroying their temples and books. After that, he ordered that those Christian groups which had been deemed "unorthodox" also be eliminated, thus removing internal challenges.

interpreter · Aug 2, 2014

he-man said:
First, Constantine moved to eliminate the external challenges posed by paganism, destroying their temples and books. After that, he ordered that those Christian groups which had been deemed "unorthodox" also be eliminated, thus removing internal challenges.

There were no martyrs during Constantine's reign.

he-man · Aug 2, 2014

interpreter said:
There were no martyrs during Constantine's reign.

Constantine was not a Christian, no Christian participated in war or engaged in it even politically.

"The many early Christians accepted the injunctions of the Sermon on the Mount quite literally is certain and their attitude brought them into much the same kind of conflict with the Roman authorities which conscientious objectors of our own time face in dealing with the military authority.

G.C. Macgregor (The New Testament Basis of Pacifism) points out that ‘until about the close of the third quarter of the second century the attitude of the church was quite consistently pacifist.’ Harnack’s conclusion is that no Christian would become a soldier after baptism at least up to the time of Marcus Aurelius, say about A.D. 170 (Militia Christi, p.4). After that time signs of compromise became increasingly evident, but the pacifist trend continues strong right up into the fourth century."

"During its first three centuries of existence, the Christian church was opposed to war and others forms of violence. Christian opposition to war early expanded into a denial of rightness of all coercive action on the part of the civil power. Thus arose that form of conscientious objection which has been designated as political nonparticipation."

"Christ and his apostles delivered general precepts for the regulation of our conduct. It was necessary for their successors to apply them to their practice in life. And to what did they apply the pacific precepts which had been delivered?

They applied them to war; they were assured that the precepts absolutely forbade it. This belief they derived from those very precepts on which we have insisted: They referred, expressly, to the same passages in the New Testament, and from the authority and obligation of those passages, they refused to bear arms. A few examples from their history will show with what undoubting confidence they believed in the unlawfulness of war, and how much they were willing to suffer in the cause of peace."
Encyclopedia Britanica, Vol. 17, p. 20B
Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, Vol. 4, p. 210
An Inquiry Into the Accordancy of War with the Principle of Christianity, Dymond, p. 80-81 11 Ibid. p. 80-81 12 Ibid. p. 85

Unix · Aug 2, 2014

Really great post, he-man, thanks!:

he-man said:
no Christian participated in war or engaged in it even politically.

Hillsage · Aug 2, 2014

he-man said:
Constantine was not a Christian, no Christian participated in war or engaged in it even politically.

I'm curious. What is your take on the following verse he-man?

Luke 3:14 Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Rob no one by violence or by false accusation, and be content with your wages."

Was John simply wrong, or was this just OT standards? Or have you another opinion?

Imagican · Aug 3, 2014

interpreter said:
The Church holds St. Constantine in the highest esteem, making him a saint equal to the apostles.

And a cursory study will reveal that they couldn't be MORE WRONG.

Constantine was a PAGAN Emperor who SUPPOSEDLY accepted Christ on HIS DEATH BED.

this is a man who AFTER the legalization of Christianity in the Roman Empire, had members of his own family MURDERED.

Having STUDIED the history of Constantine, I have FOUND NO WHERE that he even CLAIMED to be a 'Christian'. I have found NO INFORMATION from 'others' of his time that THEY believed him to be a 'Christian'.

So this just goes to show what extremes 'The Church' will go to in order to ALTER the TRUTH of history.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican · Aug 3, 2014

Norah63 said:
The same yesterday, today and forever.
Rest in them.........1 Peter3:8
Words to live by for all the body of Christ here on this earth today.
Dont fret over what is not yet revealed to us.

GOD and HIS SON are the SAME yesterday, today and tomorrow. People have CHANGED.

There is NO 'liberalism' in following the TRUTH. Truth is NOT subjective as so many seem to insist. Only OUR truth. The TRUTH offered by God has not nor WILL IT 'change'.

I don't know how one CAN 'fret over what has yet to revealed'. What I am concerned with MOST is what has ALREADY been revealed. What is YET to be revealed I cannot even fathom.

Blessings,

MEC

Norah63 · Aug 3, 2014

Jesus also wept. As the body of Christ we do yearn for the unity of the faith.
It is that agreement with Jesus in His prayer to His Father and our Father.
It is also stated that when He returned, would there be any faith left. So we know that many will follow their misguided ways and fall into a snare.
When so called preachers give their liberal, subjective twist on the truth, we are thankful that our Lord keeps us from being disceived. For we know that even the very elect, if it were possible, could be. Yet thanks be to God that the LOVE of the truth is our safety.
Duped only applies when one gives concent. Resist the devil and he will flee.

Imagican · Aug 3, 2014

Ok Doc.

Wouldn't have expected ANY less. Have discussed doctrinal issues with Catholics for YEARS. I am well aware of their 'smoke and mirrors' approach to 'Christianity'.

All you have done is try to DEFEND that which cannot be defended.

A BISHOP must be BLAMELESS according to the words of Paul. Now, how do you suppose that these words have ANY validity or true MEANING if we do not JUDGE those that would be our "Church LEADERS" according TO The Word? But of course, that is NOT what the Catholic Church TEACHES. So they are basically OPPOSED to the teachings of the Bible in favor of their OWN understanding that so often IS 'contrary to the Bible'.

And I find it almost INANE that you would suggest that the Bible was BROUGHT to us by the Catholic Church. You REALLY 'can't be serious'????????????

The Catholic Church MURDERED people that TRIED to bring the Bible to the PEOPLE.

An old friend of mine married a woman from Brazil that SAYS she's a Catholic. She doesn't even know who Noah is and she practices VOODOO. That pretty much SUMS up what I have learned of the Catholic Church. ALL one has to DO is SAY they 'believe in the Catholic Church' to BE a Catholic. But they can BELIEVE whatever ELSE they choose so long as they SHOW up in 'church' and throw some money in the plate as it is passed, OVER and OVER again. This is her SECOND marriage but she STILL 'claims' to be Catholic. IMPOSSIBLE according to the Catholic doctrine.

That's enough. this isn't a discussion about the Catholic Church. I simply tried to point out to YOU that even among Catholics, I have YET to meet TWO that were in agreement as concerns THE BIBLE. Then you come back with offerings ALTERING the words I offered. I didn't say two people with SIMILAR beliefs. I SAID, "Two people with the SAME beliefs". BIG DIFFERENCE. Core BELIEFS? I didn't even MENTION 'core beliefs'. And YOUR bringing it up on goes to offer FURTHER PROOF of what I have stated. JUST ABOUT EVERYONE is agreement on CORE BELIEFS that pertain to their denomination. It's when we start discussing EVERY THING ELSE that their unity begins to disintegrate.

I guess you didn't pay any attention to the part I offered concerning having discussed doctrinal issue with Catholics for YEARS. And I pointed out that even HERE, on this forum, when something like 'trinity' is discussed, it is JUST as likely for a CATHOLIC to correct a CATHOLIC as it is for a 'non trinitarian' to disagree.

Your attempt to offer something contrary doesn't 'add up'. You are simply offering WORDS that don't REALLY have any TRUE meaning. I KNEW what I was talking about when I opened this thread and that is WHY I opened it. And you trying to SAY that it is NOT so doesn't offer a SHRED of evidence to the contrary. JUST WORDS.

And if you feel that what I have experienced in my life is SAD and worthy of prayer, BY ALL MEANS, I can USE as much prayer as anyone is willing to offer. But if you see fit to pray for ME, pray that I can FIND those TWO PEOPLE................ Otherwise I'll be STUCK in my understanding that they DON'T EXIST.

Blessings,

MEC

he-man · Aug 3, 2014

Hillsage said:
I'm curious. What is your take on the following verse he-man?

Luke 3:14 Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Rob no one by violence or by false accusation, and be content with your wages."

Was John simply wrong, or was this just OT standards? Or have you another opinion?

Lu 3:14 And soldiers also asked him, saying: And what should we do? And he said to them: no one do violence2 to, no one defame3, and let your salt4 suffice5.
2 * Greek διασεσσητε use of force, violence
3 * Greek συκοφαντώ, defame; slander
4 * Greek οψωνιοις salt; services other than manual or mechanical distinguished from wages or fees
5 * Greek αρκεω suffice (it) to say, used to indicate that one is withholding something for reasons of discretion

ὄψον — on which see ὀψάριον And as grain, meat, fruits, salt, were given to soldiers instead of pay (Caesar b. g. 1, 23, 1; Polybius 1, 66f; 3, 13, 8
THAYER'S GREEK LEXICON

So, what is your take on this one?
Act 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan [ the accuser] has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.

Hillsage · Aug 3, 2014

he-man said:
Lu 3:14 And soldiers also asked him, saying: And what should we do? And he said to them: no one do violence2 to, no one defame3, and let your salt4 suffice5.
2 * Greek διασεσσητε use of force, violence
3 * Greek συκοφαντώ, defame; slander
4 * Greek οψωνιοις salt; services other than manual or mechanical distinguished from wages or fees
5 * Greek αρκεω suffice (it) to say, used to indicate that one is withholding something for reasons of discretion

ὄψον on which see ὀψάριον And as grain, meat, fruits, salt, were given to soldiers instead of pay (Caesar b. g. 1, 23, 1; Polybius 1, 66f; 3, 13, 8
THAYER'S GREEK LEXICON

You've quoted, what I believe, is a source I'd use to 'come' to a personal 'opinion'. Therefore I consider my question as, still unanswered. Do you think, based upon your Thayer's quotes above, that; "John was simply wrong, or this was just OT standards? Or have you another opinion? "

I actually gave an answer, as to 'my take' on Acts 5, but cut it. We can 'go there' if you get 'past here'.

Imagican · Aug 3, 2014

Norah63 said:
Jesus also wept. As the body of Christ we do yearn for the unity of the faith.
It is that agreement with Jesus in His prayer to His Father and our Father.
It is also stated that when He returned, would there be any faith left. So we know that many will follow their misguided ways and fall into a snare.
When so called preachers give their liberal, subjective twist on the truth, we are thankful that our Lord keeps us from being disceived. For we know that even the very elect, if it were possible, could be. Yet thanks be to God that the LOVE of the truth is our safety.
Duped only applies when one gives concent. Resist the devil and he will flee.

Norah,

Please DO NOT THINK that I have not been LISTENING to your words. I have heard EVERY ONE. I have UNDERSTOOD every word you have offered.

But that doesn't alter what I have experienced in my life. And being someone prone to THINK, I can't help but SEEK the ANSWER. And after many many years of seeking the answer, the ONE that has been come MOST reasonable is that ALL have been duped.

Which of us has not been TAUGHT to place our faith in MONEY? Which of us has not been TAUGHT that we DESERVE MORE. Which of us has not been TAUGHT to lie, cheat and steal? Which of us has NOT been taught to place other people and other THINGS before God? And the SADDEST part is THIS: which of us HAS NOT chosen to LIE to ourselves as much as we lie to everyone else?

I don't personally KNOW you. So I have YET to try and point MY finger AT YOU personally.

But I have KNOWN thousands of different people in my life. And a MAJORITY of them have CLAIMED to be followers of Christ. Yet ALL that I have come to know PERSONALLY have not only fallen short, they haven't even come CLOSE to following what we have been COMMANDED we MUST in order to BE A FOLLOWER.

I may not be a 'rocket scientist'. I don't BELIEVE that that's what it TAKES to be able to READ and understand what one is reading. When I was in eighth grade I was tested and it was determined that my COMPREHENSION level was that of a third year college student. So while I may NOT be a 'rocket scientist', according to STATISTICS, I was in the top five percent of my class so far as comprehension of what I READ is concerned.

So, if it is NOT my MISUNDERSTANDING of what I have READ and what I BELIEVE has been REVEALED TO ME, what is it? Did Paul and the other apostles SUFFER from what I have witnessed ALL the 'so called Christians' around ME have suffered? You know, SAYING ONE thing and DOING another. Or WAS Paul FOLLOWING and WERE his instructions VALID.

Yes, the apostles MADE MISTAKES. But ALL indications are that they were BELIEVERS and, MORE importantly, FOLLOWERS.

Peter and Paul had a misunderstanding. But God BROUGHT the truth to Peter in a vision. So after their misunderstanding, they WERE ABLE to come to a UNIFIED understanding. I don't SEE this TODAY. I seem millions upon millions of people that CAN'T reach any SORT of unified understanding.

If what I SEE is the TRUTH, then there MUST be an ANSWER.

The Bible tells us that we MUST serve in TRUTH and Spirit. But if NO ONE KNOWS the TRUTH, how is this possible? So there MUST be a UNIFIED truth. ONE TRUTH. But each and everyone I have met has a DIFFERENT truth. There MUST be an ANSWER Norah. THERE MUST BE AN ANSWER. That most choose to IGNORE the situation for FEAR of the answer doesn't alter the FACT that there HAS TO BE AN ANSWER. Why are not ALL of those professing to be followers of Christ FOLLOWING the MANNER detailed in the Bible: OUR INSTRUCTION MANUAL?

All it takes is ONE question to PLAINLY illustrate my point:

Which AMONG US, if TOLD to go and sell ALL we possess and give the money to the POOR would NOT walk away in SORROW?

The CRUCIAL part of the IMPORTANCE of the question is HONESTY. It means NOTHING if one is willing to lie to themselves or others.

For I am told OVER and OVER that the WORDS of the Bible are for ALL of us. What about the words offered to the young RICH man, were not THOSE words JUST as important as ANY others? I mean if we are to BELIEVE in that the words offered to the apostles concerning 'them that believe', are not the words Christ offered to the young RICH MAN just as VALID?

Yet WHICH among US would DO anything DIFFERENT than the 'young rich man'? WALK AWAY IN SORROW?

which among us is DOING this VERY THING EVERY DAY OF OUR LIVES?

Blessings,

MEC

Unix · Aug 3, 2014

I haven't:

Imagican said:
Which of us has not been TAUGHT that we DESERVE MORE.

And the minority would think that I deserve the little money I have and get.
EDIT3: personally, I barely think I even deserve the required books for the classes I'm taking. It's tough getting them. I will get them just in time, had planned to read in advance before the program starts, but will only be able to choose between very few books I managed to already get, to read from next week.

Well, I'm open, does that help?:

Imagican said:
And the SADDEST part is THIS: which of us HAS NOT chosen to LIE to ourselves as much as we lie to everyone else?

EDIT: I serve others to the extent I get in touch with people. I also have ads up trying to sell some things I have (which I use), in order not to get out of the danger deficit and the interest rate and/or bad liquidity losses. EDIT2: I don't give to beggars but on Thursday-Friday this week I was and on Monday afternoon or Tuesday lunchtime I am helping a crippled man. EDIT4: I help a woman who is born one-eyed and is an orphan, usually at least a couple of times a month at least a couple of hours, I have helped her more but now when I enter seminary I'm not sure I will have that much time for anything or anyone.

Previously edited by Unix; 3rd August 2014 at 6:07 PM local time.
Previously edited by Unix; 3rd August 2014 at 6:10 PM local time.
Previously edited by Unix; 3rd August 2014 at 6:17 PM local time.

Norah63 · Aug 3, 2014

Closing my part of the thread with this.
Grace works, saints rest.

RevelationTestament · Aug 3, 2014

Unix said:
I haven't:
And the minority would think that I deserve the little money I have and get.
EDIT3: personally, I barely think I even deserve the required books for the classes I'm taking. It's tough getting them. I will get them just in time, had planned to read in advance before the program starts, but will only be able to choose between very few books I managed to already get, to read from next week.

Well, I'm open, does that help?:

EDIT: I serve others to the extent I get in touch with people. I also have ads up trying to sell some things I have (which I use), in order not to get out of the danger deficit and the interest rate and/or bad liquidity losses. EDIT2: I don't give to beggars but on Thursday-Friday this week I was and on Monday afternoon or Tuesday lunchtime I am helping a crippled man. EDIT4: I help a woman who is born one-eyed and is an orphan, usually at least a couple of times a month at least a couple of hours, I have helped her more but now when I enter seminary I'm not sure I will have that much time for anything or anyone.

Previously edited by Unix; 3rd August 2014 at 6:07 PM local time.
Previously edited by Unix; 3rd August 2014 at 6:10 PM local time.
Previously edited by Unix; 3rd August 2014 at 6:17 PM local time.

I am very touched Unix. To be Christian is to know and serve those in our lives we come across. My wife does this infinitely better than me. I do sometimes give to beggars, but I also try not to support or "enable" those with a habit. I feel most beggars are probably addicted to alcohol or drugs. I used to have a neighbor who was an addict. I like her, but she took to the habit of hitting me up for "a few bucks." I quickly learned that she was buying cigarettes or drugs with it while the kids went hungry. So I took to the habit of not carrying any cash with me, but we did feed their kids when they came over. They voraciously ate fruit, yogurt, etc. She eventually lost her kids.
My wife's mother would sometimes bring people home and feed them. That teaches true Christian charity rather than just throwing cash at them. But where I live now there really aren't any beggars. I do have a deaf friend but he is not really destitute. He is also a fair mechanic so I don't hesitate to pay him for fixing my small engines. My church also has a welfare program which helps those who have lost their job, etc. There is also a training program which helps the less fortunate to get some training in retail, etc. There is also a perpetual education fund to help people with schooling. Once they finish and get a job, they pay back to the fund, so others can also go to school. There's always myriads of ways to help.

NannaNae · Aug 3, 2014

you have confused unity with uniformity..

I can let my brothers and sisters have slightly different views of my very larger God.

because they may need those views to understand what he has for them to do for him in this next time or this next season. besides we are all still baking bacon!
when all the fat is gone it changes a lot.

interpreter · Aug 3, 2014

The white horse of the Revelation has a name. His name is "Faithful and True" which is the definition of Orthodox.

RevelationTestament · Aug 3, 2014

Imagican said:
Norah,

Please DO NOT THINK that I have not been LISTENING to your words. I have heard EVERY ONE. I have UNDERSTOOD every word you have offered.

But that doesn't alter what I have experienced in my life. And being someone prone to THINK, I can't help but SEEK the ANSWER. And after many many years of seeking the answer, the ONE that has been come MOST reasonable is that ALL have been duped.

Which of us has not been TAUGHT to place our faith in MONEY? Which of us has not been TAUGHT that we DESERVE MORE. Which of us has not been TAUGHT to lie, cheat and steal? Which of us has NOT been taught to place other people and other THINGS before God? And the SADDEST part is THIS: which of us HAS NOT chosen to LIE to ourselves as much as we lie to everyone else?

I don't personally KNOW you. So I have YET to try and point MY finger AT YOU personally.

But I have KNOWN thousands of different people in my life. And a MAJORITY of them have CLAIMED to be followers of Christ. Yet ALL that I have come to know PERSONALLY have not only fallen short, they haven't even come CLOSE to following what we have been COMMANDED we MUST in order to BE A FOLLOWER.

I may not be a 'rocket scientist'. I don't BELIEVE that that's what it TAKES to be able to READ and understand what one is reading. When I was in eighth grade I was tested and it was determined that my COMPREHENSION level was that of a third year college student. So while I may NOT be a 'rocket scientist', according to STATISTICS, I was in the top five percent of my class so far as comprehension of what I READ is concerned.

So, if it is NOT my MISUNDERSTANDING of what I have READ and what I BELIEVE has been REVEALED TO ME, what is it? Did Paul and the other apostles SUFFER from what I have witnessed ALL the 'so called Christians' around ME have suffered? You know, SAYING ONE thing and DOING another. Or WAS Paul FOLLOWING and WERE his instructions VALID.

Yes, the apostles MADE MISTAKES. But ALL indications are that they were BELIEVERS and, MORE importantly, FOLLOWERS.

Peter and Paul had a misunderstanding. But God BROUGHT the truth to Peter in a vision. So after their misunderstanding, they WERE ABLE to come to a UNIFIED understanding. I don't SEE this TODAY. I seem millions upon millions of people that CAN'T reach any SORT of unified understanding.

If what I SEE is the TRUTH, then there MUST be an ANSWER.

The Bible tells us that we MUST serve in TRUTH and Spirit. But if NO ONE KNOWS the TRUTH, how is this possible? So there MUST be a UNIFIED truth. ONE TRUTH. But each and everyone I have met has a DIFFERENT truth. There MUST be an ANSWER Norah. THERE MUST BE AN ANSWER. That most choose to IGNORE the situation for FEAR of the answer doesn't alter the FACT that there HAS TO BE AN ANSWER. Why are not ALL of those professing to be followers of Christ FOLLOWING the MANNER detailed in the Bible: OUR INSTRUCTION MANUAL?

All it takes is ONE question to PLAINLY illustrate my point:

Which AMONG US, if TOLD to go and sell ALL we possess and give the money to the POOR would NOT walk away in SORROW?

The CRUCIAL part of the IMPORTANCE of the question is HONESTY. It means NOTHING if one is willing to lie to themselves or others.

For I am told OVER and OVER that the WORDS of the Bible are for ALL of us. What about the words offered to the young RICH man, were not THOSE words JUST as important as ANY others? I mean if we are to BELIEVE in that the words offered to the apostles concerning 'them that believe', are not the words Christ offered to the young RICH MAN just as VALID?

Yet WHICH among US would DO anything DIFFERENT than the 'young rich man'? WALK AWAY IN SORROW?

which among us is DOING this VERY THING EVERY DAY OF OUR LIVES?

Blessings,

MEC

My current take on the scriptures is that God designed them to seek out the godly. So it is not surprising that there aren't two people who have the same understanding. Everyone learns according to their ability. But then God expects them to live according to their understanding.

I do not believe Jesus expects us all to give everything we have away. That would be very irresponsible of me as the Father of 3 children to give away my house and everything necessary to raise them and live on the street. The Bible also teaches that the man who does not support his family is not righteous.
Jesus was told this young rich man to sell his belongings in order to follow Him because he knew this would be hard for him. This was a specific promise to him, that if he did follow Jesus, he would have treasure in heaven. But in raising a family and teaching them we are also following Jesus.

A New World · Aug 3, 2014

Imagican,

Your attitude and your sentiments are in no way unique.

Scripture says:

"That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which it may be said, See, this is new? It has already been in ancient times before us." (Ecclesiastes‬ 1‬:9-10‬ NKJV)

Paul reminded his audience that God has always had a remnant:

"I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life? But what does the divine response say to him? I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work." (Romans‬ 11‬:1-6‬ NKJV)

There have always been people with your mindset who think they alone are serving God and know the truth. You are in good company since Elijah thought the same. But, this is wrong. It has never been about perfect agreement.

God loves His people enough to have sent His Son to forgive them and deliver them from sin. If it was about performing the works of the Law, Jesus had no reason to come, fulfill the Law, die, and be raised from the dead.

The gospel is: "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Corinthians‬ 5‬:21‬ NKJV)

You will search in vain to try and find two human opinions that are identical. But, that was never God's goal. He came to forgive sins, restore the relationship between Himself and man, declare them righteous in His Son, and reward those who have faith in Jesus with eternal life.

I have witnessed many here who have faith in Jesus, therefore I am in the company of many who are righteous in the sight of God. Not based on their works, but on their faith in Him.

Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent. (John‬ 6‬:29‬ NKJV)

May God bless and may you find the peace that passes all understanding. Not in your abilities, or your works, but in your dependence on The One Who has finished the work!

he-man · Aug 3, 2014

Hillsage said:
You've quoted, what I believe, is a source I'd use to 'come' to a personal 'opinion'. Therefore I consider my question as, still unanswered. Do you think, based upon your Thayer's quotes above, that; "John was simply wrong, or this was just OT standards? Or have you another opinion? "

The scripture supports the word "SALT. By the time of the Hebrew Book of Ezra (550 to 450 BCE), salt from a person was synonymous with drawing sustenance, taking pay, or being in that person's service. At that time, salt production was strictly controlled by the monarchy or ruling elite. Depending on the translation of Ezra 4:14, the servants of King Artaxerxes I of Persia explain their loyalty variously as "because we are salted with the salt of the palace" or "because we have maintenance from the king" or "because we are responsible to the king".

Ezr 4:14 Now because we have maintenance <H4415>from the king's palace, and it was not meet for us to see the king's dishonour, therefore have we sent and certified the king; H4415 (Chaldee); corresponding to H4414; to eat salt, that is, (generally) subsist

In Rome. . .the soldier's pay was originally salt and the word salary derives from it...". http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Pliny_the_Elder/31*.html

Originally "salt-money, soldier's allowance for the purchase of salt," noun use of neuter of adjective salarius "pertaining to salt," from sal (genitive salis) "salt" (see salt (n.)). Online Etymology Dictionary

Hillsage said:
I actually gave an answer, as to 'my take' on Acts 5, but cut it. We can 'go there' if you get 'past here'.

So, If you can get past salt, what is your take on this one?
Act 5:3 Then Peter said, Ananias, how is it that Satan [ the accuser] has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didnt it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasnt the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God. When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.

What if we have ALL been 'duped'?

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